To what extent are you civil?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by reekah

I think rudeness is overstated and is widely subjective, so in the end it's immaterial.

In one way, you are right. For example, the Japanese are extremely polite people (probably the world's most polite people), and if you are a typical American coming to live in Japan for the first time, you'll regularly come across as offensive and boorish, without intending to.

In another sense, you're wrong. Because with better skills, you can become much more aware of the sensitivities of whoever you're interacting with (regardless of race, religion, age, gender, culture, inherent personality traits) and therefore more able to build a meaningful connection with the person.

[reekah]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In one way, you are right. For example, the Japanese are extremely polite people (probably the world's most polite people), and if you are a typical American coming to live in Japan for the first time, you'll regularly come across as offensive and boorish, without intending to.

In another sense, you're wrong. Because with better skills, you can become much more aware of the sensitivities of whoever you're interacting with (regardless of race, religion, age, gender, culture, inherent personality traits) and therefore more able to build a meaningful connection with the person.

If one values the person with whom one is interacting. I think most say others hold a right to be rude, and the recipients have to suck it up.

[reekah]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Just checking!

Do you think we should only do things that we're obligated to do?

To a very large extent, yes. All humans are free in life.

[reekah]

Originally Posted by Angela

Interestingly, discussion of rudeness, and how the owner of this website has recently declared that there won't be much leeway for it here, has been something of a concern in the forums lately.

If you don't care about getting banned, then yes, it's immaterial. If you would like to stay and participate in the forums, I would say it's not.

Now that I think about it, that's a metaphor for any and all relationships -- if you don't care about the results you get with people, incivility doesn't matter. And if you want to have relationships in which you feel welcomed, respected, or fully heard and engaged, being civil, in my view, is a basic building block for getting the results you want.

I disagree with this. I said rudeness is immaterial since I think we often are hostile to those whom we don't approve of, it's human nature in a sense.

[Angela]

Ok. Good luck.

[reekah]

Originally Posted by Angela

Ok. Good luck.

Humans are as humans are. don't let reality be an obstacle.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by reekah

If one values the person with whom one is interacting.

True. That is why I said that I am generally civil, but also that I am not warm, friendly and open to everyone.

Civility requires minimum effort, it's generally no problem at all (for me, anyway, perhaps not for you). It means you say "please", "thank you", "morning", give a small smile or nod to acknowledge the other person.

I think most say others hold a right to be rude, and the recipients have to suck it up.

I would disagree with multiple aspects of your single sentence above. Two aspects:

Firstly, it's not just about rights. It's about the best outcome for yourself, and if you are so minded, for the other person too. In general, if you are rude, don't expect the other person to go out of his way to cooperate or help you as much as he actually can.

Secondly, people don't necessarily have to suck it up. Depending on the extent of your rudeness, they could call the security guard; the bouncer could throw you out; the police could arrest you for criminal intimidation or being a public nuisance; you could get a box on the nose, or a few cuss words thrown back at you.

Also, if you are in the habit of regularly being obnoxious, you're probably getting punished in ways you don't even realize.

A tour guide who was an ex-air steward once told me a funny story about how he once spat his yellow phlegm into a cup of coffee, stirred it up nicely and then served it to a very obnoxious passenger.

That's a rather tasteless example, but people find numerous invisible ways to punish obnoxious people all the time.

[reekah]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

True. That is why I said that I am generally civil, but also that I am not warm, friendly and open to everyone.

Civility requires minimum effort, it's generally no problem at all (for me, anyway, perhaps not for you). It means you say "please", "thank you", "morning", give a small smile or nod to acknowledge the other person.



I would disagree with multiple aspects of your single sentence above. Two aspects:

Firstly, it's not just about rights. It's about the best outcome for yourself, and if you are so minded, for the other person too.

Secondly, people don't necessarily have to suck it up. Depending on the extent of your rudeness, they could call the security guard; the bouncer could throw you out; the police could arrest you for criminal intimidation or being a public nuisance; you could get a box on the nose, or a few cuss words thrown back at you.

Also, if you are in the habit of regularly being obnoxious, you're probably getting punished in ways you don't even realize.

A tour guide who was an ex-air steward once told me a funny story about how he once spat his yellow phlegm into a cup of coffee, stirred it up nicely and then served it to a very obnoxious passenger.

That's a rather tasteless example, but people find numerous invisible ways to punish obnoxious people all the time.

Really? I'd think that we cannot control other people, and that part of life is learning how to manage around others. The person being rude doesn't have to care about the recipient, and it's not a matter of the recipient being "hurt".

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by reekah

Humans are as humans are.

You must be a rather unusual sort of human then.

Notice that the other humans in this thread don't seem to think the way you do.

[reekah]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You must be a rather unusual sort of human then.

Notice that the other humans in this thread don't seem to think the way you do.

Everybody thinks differently. don't you know that?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by reekah

Really? I'd think that we cannot control other people, and that part of life is learning how to manage around others. The person being rude doesn't have to care about the recipient, and it's not a matter of the recipient being "hurt".

Sure, you cannot control other people, in the way that you could control a remote-controlled toy car. On the other hand, you could definitely influence other people. You ARE an influence on every person you meet - the only questions are about the degree and the nature of influence.

Anyway, in general, i personally wouldn't expend my energy being uncivil for "fun" of it. It's a waste of energy, and I prefer other kinds of fun. Bye.

[reekah]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Sure, you cannot control other people, in the way that you could control a remote-controlled toy car. On the other hand, you could definitely influence other people. You ARE an influence on every person you meet - the only questions are about the degree and the nature of influence.

Perhaps.

Anyway, in general, i personally wouldn't expend my energy being uncivil for "fun" of it. It's a waste of energy, and I prefer other kinds of fun. Bye.

Humans can be unkind, get over it. One of the signs of being mentally fit is to accept that others can and will be rude.

[CroMagna]

^^And to subsequently avoid them like the plague that they are. Or make them live to regret it.

I can't believe you reserve the right to be rude to people you disapprove of. Don't you have morals?

[Prinie]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

^^And to subsequently avoid them like the plague that they are. Or make them live to regret it.

I can't believe you reserve the right to be rude to people you disapprove of. Don't you have morals?

Magna, that's the whole point of his thread. To prove his view of the subjectivity of morality. Essentially, the aim is to shake things up and get people angry and debating.

[CroMagna]

It makes for a very interesting discussion but he says in his day to day life he's sometimes rude just for fun. He's a **** disturber, my favorite type of human.

[CroMagna]

This sounds like mini social darwinism, might makes right. There are no rights, only the spoils of conflict and war.

[Prinie]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

It makes for a very interesting discussion but he says in his day to day life he's sometimes rude just for fun. He's a **** disturber, my favorite type of human.

Well...alrighty then.

[CroMagna]

Would you like to continue the discussion?

[Acting Like Godot]

You could share anecdotes about how obnoxious, uncivil people get punished. You know, the yellow phlegm example and things like that.

[CroMagna]

In my experience, aggressive and obnoxious people get rewarded. They go on to achieve beauty, wealth, and material power. It gives me the impression that in this world, victory is the basis of right, except where it involves children.

[Acting Like Godot]

In my experience, aggressive and obnoxious people come from dysfunctional families and basically lacked proper upbringing, social skills and parental attention. And the very aggressive and obnoxious people just generally end up in jail.

On a less dramatic scale, aggressive and obnoxious people are penalized in many smaller ways which they often do not even realize. For example, I work in the legal department and different folks call me for legal advice. I get on fine with most people, but there are a few rude persons.

When they call and I see their name flashing on my telephone screen, depending on my mood, I may just refuse to answer. When they send me emails, I prioritize their matters as non-important. I give them just enough service such that they have no grounds for complaint, but for other people whim I like, I would often go the extra mile to provide better service.

This kind of thing happens everywhere. Once there was an obnoxious person AV who left the organization. He tried to get a job elsewhere. That other company called someone M in my company for a character reference on AV. M happily spent the next 20 minutes sharing his honest opinion on AV's personality. Guess whether AV got the job? No, of course not.

When you are generally perceived as obnoxious, different people will regularly punish you in numerous different ways. Occasionally, it may be something as direct as getting pummeled and beaten up, in boarding school. Elsewhere, it's much more subtle and much less obvious, but it's no less real.

Eg you make a big mistake at work. If you are a nice person, chances are that people will say, "Oh, he deserves a second chance. We're all human. It was only partly his fault, because X, Y, Z ...". But if you are an obnoxious person, chances are that at best, no one will express support and at worst, people will lobby for you to get sacked.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In my experience, aggressive and obnoxious people come from dysfunctional families and basically lacked proper upbringing, social skills and parental attention.

And the very aggressive and obnoxious people just generally end up in jail.

That's a bit of an over generalization. Most people come from dysfunctional families, and it would be incorrect to say they are all obnoxious and aggressive, or lack social skills and proper upbringing.

My family are pretty dysfunctional and I don't consider myself to be obnoxious. At times I can be blunt, and aggressive, which people perceive as an attack, but that doesn't mean I'm not also capable of diplomacy and I have been told by friends that I connect well with all types of people.

I've managed to avoid prison...as have my brothers (one of whom is a criminal.)

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by elucidate

That's a bit of an over generalization. Most people come from dysfunctional families, and it would be incorrect to say they are all obnoxious and aggressive, or lack social skills and proper upbringing.

My family are pretty dysfunctional and I don't consider myself to be obnoxious. At times I can be blunt, and aggressive, which people perceive as an attack, but that doesn't mean I'm not also capable of diplomacy and I have been told by friends that I connect well with all types of people.

Yeah, my family is massively dysfunctional, but hey, there are more ways dysfunction expresses itself than the ways that would foster obnoxious behavior. (I have to work to not be a doormat, overly meek, and apologize for existing.)

I've managed to avoid prison...as have my brothers (one of whom is a criminal.)

You have one of those, too?

In my experience, obnoxious people tend to be the ones that for whatever reason, were rewarded, for a time, for being so: whether in an institution (like most schools I've been exposed to) or in a particular kind of dysfunctional family. Not an entire explanation by far, just where I've most often seen it.

But as ALG points out they are punished for it in subtle ways.

[Acting Like Godot]

I didn't say that most people from dysfunctional families are obnoxious.
I said that most obnoxious people come from dysfunctional families.

There's a very big difference.

"Most birds can fly" is very different from "Most creatures that can fly are birds". The world has billions of flying insects.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In my experience, aggressive and obnoxious people come from dysfunctional families and basically lacked proper upbringing, social skills and parental attention. And the very aggressive and obnoxious people just generally end up in jail.

Okay, I read the reply above.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I didn't say that most people from dysfunctional families are obnoxious.
I said that most obnoxious people come from dysfunctional families.

There's a very big difference.

"Most birds can fly" is very different from "Most creatures that can fly are birds". The world has billions of flying insects.

Yes, I can see the difference, though it seems very slight to me...not big.

It still implies that anyone who comes from a dysfunctional family is somehow going to lack in social skills and be aggro...and sometimes that's the case, but it's not the case for many.

[Acting Like Godot]

No, it is a very big difference.

Let's say that you were often physically abused as a child or grew up in a bad neighborhood where thugs and gangsters abounds. Two things might very well then happen.

You could grow up to be an aggressive, belligerent person who also attacks other people.

Or you could grow up to be an insecure, timid, cowering, meek little creature, with a deep fear of encountering violent situations.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Yeah, my family is massively dysfunctional, but hey, there are more ways dysfunction expresses itself than the ways that would foster obnoxious behavior. (I have to work to not be a doormat, overly meek, and apologize for existing.)

Mirror sister. I have worked hard at this over the years also. It's not easy.

You have one of those, too?

Oh yes...I could have gone down that road many times in my life, and technically, during my pot smoking days I was a criminal, though I never really stole stuff. I broke out in heat rash whenever I tried to. I'd make a terrible criminal.

In my experience, obnoxious people tend to be the ones that for whatever reason, were rewarded, for a time, for being so: whether in an institution (like most schools I've been exposed to) or in a particular kind of dysfunctional family. Not an entire explanation by far, just where I've most often seen it.

But as ALG points out they are punished for it in subtle ways.

I can't say I have experienced this enough to say it's true, but it sounds feasible.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

No, it is a very big difference.

Let's say that you were often physically abused as a child or grew up in a bad neighborhood where thugs and gangsters abounds. Two things might very well then happen.

You could grow up to be an aggressive, belligerent person who also attacks other people.

Or you could grow up to be an insecure, timid, cowering, meek little creature, with a deep fear of encountering violent situations.

Or, you could grow up vowing never to behave the way your abusers did and be perfectly civil...as many people who have experienced childhood abuse went on to become.

[Acting Like Godot]

Correct, and I never said otherwise.

Let me put it another way. Nike manufactures Nike shoes, socks and T-shirts at its factories.

If you came from a Nike factory, you are not necessarily a shoe. You could be a sock or a T-shirt.

On the other hand, if you are a Nike shoe, you definitely came from a Nike factory.