Is it important to be good looking?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Brutha

I don't have name recognition with any of those names.

You probably also don't recognise Freja Beha, Natasha Poly, Abbey Lee Kershaw, Jac Jagaciak, Istelin Steiro or Liu Wen either, but they are some of the biggest names in the modelling world right now. The age of the supermodel is over.

[CoolBee]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Is the UK overly concerned with beauty now? My grandmother is from the UK and she'll watch British TV. Some of it is old. But I noticed the actors are all very ordinary looking and plain. I just assumed from her shows that the British weren't really all that concerned about physical appearances.

Obsessed.

Your grandmother is probably watching soaps which do at least try to portray normal everyday people. It's the magazines and adverts that are full-on in your face in every supermarket and newsagent.

You only have to look at the Daily Mail, a popular UK newspaper, which is utterly obsessed with women's appearances. (You can see it online if you really want to - to give you a flavour!)

[Agota]

I actually can't say that UK is that obsessed with beauty from my observations. I mean, media is filled with pictures of gorgeous women and tips on how to lose weight as Cool Bee says, but people in real life look rather laid back. When I came to London for the first time, one of the first things I've noticed was that there are a lot more women who are overweight and that women are much more laid back when it comes to clothes. I mean, in my country some girls don't even take trash out without putting their mascara on and some girls go to school in high heels from like 7th grade (..I'm definitely not one of them, though ) and here in London it's not a big deal to go to Tescos (supermarket) in your pijamas. I've also noticed that overweight women are not as self-conscious, which is a good thing in my opinion. I work in parties now and there are many women who are really overweight, but they're in mini dresses. You almost never see that in my country (usually people are outraged if an overweight women puts on a short top which makes like three centimeters of her belly visible). It seems that women don't care that much about their looks as they do in Eastern Europe

I have to say that guys in general look way better here style-wise

I know that in UK people in general take care about their looks than in US. I remember I asked American guy what was the first thing he noticed when he came to UK. He said that people there are way less overweight people and that people dress up a lot here in London. The exact opposite of my first impression

[CoolBee]

Probably a matter of what you're comparing it with!

In London people are more laid back than in the provinces.

For example, in most areas of London, a Londoner would typically go shopping in very casual clothes. In provincial cities and towns, women often go out shopping on Saturdays in full make up and high heels.

Married middle class urban Egyptian women usually dress immaculately to go out and wear very thick and elaborate makeup. Unmarried ones tend to have the thick makeup, but wear incredibly skintight figure-revealing clothing (even the obese ones!).

So, for me, going back to the UK after being here for a long stint, I am struck by - way less makeup and more casual, less figure-revealing clothes (except for those with the bare-midriffs), far fewer very obese women out in public, and wall-to-wall hundreds of magazines screaming "this one put on 5lb what a sad fat out of control cow" or "this one lost 5lb, anonymous friends worry about her skinny frame".


Just look here down the right hand side. Femail Pictures | Mail Online

[Agota]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Probably a matter of what you're comparing it with!


"this one put on 5lb what a sad fat out of control cow" or "this one lost 5lb, anonymous friends worry about her skinny frame".


]

This made me laugh

[JSB]

I hate to say it, but here in the US, it seems normal dress like a slob. I'm all for dressing casually and comfortably, but there is such a thing as taking it too far, and seeing people in jeans and sneakers out at a nice restaurant, or wearing sweatpants and a ratty t-shirt out shopping, it's a bit sad. My grandparents' generation would never have dressed like that to go out.

As for obesity, it's destructive and absolutely out of control. I don't think anyone should be shamed for being overweight or treated cruelly, but being obese should not be considered an "acceptable option" or "normal". It isn't; it's completely abnormal to the human organism to carry around 50%+ of it's bodyweight as fat. It's destroying people's health and shortening their lives, it's a public health crisis, and it's been brought about by corporate "food producers" loading up all our "food" with high fructose corn syrup and feeding people massive portions of overprocessed garbage that screws with their insulin levels, keeps them always hungry, and sets them up for type 2 diabetes.

The US needs to remove the farm subsidies on corn that keep the price of HFCS artificially low and insist that schoolchildren be fed healthy meals --- it's a hell of a lot easier to avoid gaining weight in the first palce than it is to try to lose it later. Dieting is not the answer; changing our diets wholesale is.

Just to add: the alternative to "obese" should not be "anorexic". People should be happy to be at their "set point" healthy weight and not made to feel inadequate if they don't have a body like a runway model.

Originally Posted by Agota

I actually can't say that UK is that obsessed with beauty from my observations. I mean, media is filled with pictures of gorgeous women and tips on how to lose weight as Cool Bee says, but people in real life look rather laid back. When I came to London for the first time, one of the first things I've noticed was that there are a lot more women who are overweight and that women are much more laid back when it comes to clothes. I mean, in my country some girls don't even take trash out without putting their mascara on and some girls go to school in high heels from like 7th grade (..I'm definitely not one of them, though ) and here in London it's not a big deal to go to Tescos (supermarket) in your pijamas. I've also noticed that overweight women are not as self-conscious, which is a good thing in my opinion. I work in parties now and there are many women who are really overweight, but they're in mini dresses. You almost never see that in my country (usually people are outraged if an overweight women puts on a short top which makes like three centimeters of her belly visible). It seems that women don't care that much about their looks as they do in Eastern Europe

I have to say that guys in general look way better here style-wise

I know that in UK people in general take care about their looks than in US. I remember I asked American guy what was the first thing he noticed when he came to UK. He said that people there are way less overweight people and that people dress up a lot here in London. The exact opposite of my first impression

[Agota]

Originally Posted by JSB

I hate to say it, but here in the US, it seems normal dress like a slob. I'm all for dressing casually and comfortably, but there is such a thing as taking it too far, and seeing people in jeans and sneakers out at a nice restaurant, or wearing sweatpants and a ratty t-shirt out shopping, it's a bit sad. My grandparents' generation would never have dressed like that to go out.

As for obesity, it's destructive and absolutely out of control. I don't think anyone should be shamed for being overweight or treated cruelly, but being obese should not be considered an "acceptable option" or "normal". It isn't; it's completely abnormal to the human organism to carry around 50%+ of it's bodyweight as fat. It's destroying people's health and shortening their lives, it's a public health crisis, and it's been brought about by corporate "food producers" loading up all our "food" with high fructose corn syrup and feeding people massive portions of overprocessed garbage that screws with their insulin levels, keeps them always hungry, and sets them up for type 2 diabetes.

The US needs to remove the farm subsidies on corn that keep the price of HFCS artificially low and insist that schoolchildren be fed healthy meals --- it's a hell of a lot easier to avoid gaining weight in the first palce than it is to try to lose it later. Dieting is not the answer; changing our diets wholesale is.

Just to add: the alternative to "obese" should not be "anorexic". People should be happy to be at their "set point" healthy weight and not made to feel inadequate if they don't have a body like a runway model.

I was completely shocked when I watched Jamie Oliver's Food Revolution. The first season kept me in a constant state of shock, from seeing what they give to kids in schools, to seeing kids who don't know how potato looks like at the age of six, to seeing what a normal family eats, to seeing obese people (that wasn't an exaggeration when I said we generally don't have obese people in Lithuania, I have never seen people that fat), to seeing obese kids (WTF are they parents thinking) to realizing that obesity is not only an aesthethic issue but also one of the main causes of death in US. That's just scary.

P.S. One of my favorite episodes was the one where I found out that apparently, a french frie is officially a vegetable in U.S. What's wrong with people who watch after nutrition in schools? Do they want to kill the entire generation or what?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Agota

P.S. One of my favorite episodes was the one where I found out that apparently, a french frie is officially a vegetable in U.S. What's wrong with people who watch after nutrition in schools? Do they want to kill the entire generation or what?

This goes to the heart of why the obesity problem is so much bigger (no pun intended) than 'lazy fat people who can't be bothered to eat less or exercise'.

I grew up in a family that grew their own vegetables, and what we didn't grow, we often went and picked direct from growers. I was raised to eat and cook whole, healthy foods (icecream and soft drinks were for birthdays only, and I didn't even try a McDonalds burger till I was a teenager), my parents took me on walks and paid for ballet and gym classes.

Unsurprisingly, I have never been overweight. And likewise, it is hard for me to get my head around the idea of a french fry being regarded as a vegetable because I have always known better than that. To be honest, I find it hard to get my head around the idea that a lot of people don't know how to poach an egg, grow vegetables or roast a chicken. But that is the reality.

There is a whole generation of people who spent 95+percent of their day sitting or lying down, who have never been taught to cook, and therefore live on food produced by others, who have totally screwed-up ideas about what foods are healthy and what are not, have tastes for fatty, sugary foods that have been cultivated since they were too young to be able to choose foods for themselves, and for whom the idea of the ongoing effort for what may be years of completely changing everything about what they are used to eating and doing is just waaaay too big to contemplate or endure.

Let's not even go to the fact that obesity is strongly correlated with poverty, and that eating healthily and exercising requires both financial and/or significant time investment. If you are working two jobs to support your family of five on minimum wage (or if you are pouring 80 hours a week into climbing the corporate ladder as a single person), finding time to shop for and prepare nutritious meals and exercise becomes much, much harder.

The problem with 'the people who watch over nutrition in schools' is that they are funded by or reliant on substantial discounting from food-producing corporations. So there is a vested interest in promoting 'food products' over actual food. This is what happens when schools are underfunded - they have to turn to corporate interests to stay afloat. And those corporate interests are not in our waistlines, they're in the company bottom line.

[JSB]

This is it, 100%.

The perfect "food product" is one that is cheap to produce, tastes good, and never fills you up: cheap starchy food and HFCS products. People will always want to buy more (the insulin spike means it will only satisfy hunger very briefly, and then leave you hungrier a little while later), and even if the retail price is low, cost of production is ridiculously low so profit is made up for in volume --- low price is a bonus because this processed food is now a staple of poor households and "just a snack" in more affluent ones.

I knew a food chemist who worked on industrial production of food products and efficiency of manufacturing. Corn comes in, starches and sugars are extracted and mixed with binders, fillers, flavorings, etc. and a "snack product" is produced at a few cents per kilo. This stuff comes from food, and can be digested for calories, but I don't know if we shuld really call it food --- quasi-food, perhaps?

Since everyone is now wanting to lose weight but can't, because they are malnourished and addicted to junk, the NEW holy grail of food manufacturing is a product that has all the above characteristics but NO CALORIES: a tasty, digestible, calorie-free substance that people can gorge on guilt-free --- eat, s**t, rinse, repeat. It will make billions of dollars.

Originally Posted by Indiana

The problem with 'the people who watch over nutrition in schools' is that they are funded by or reliant on substantial discounting from food-producing corporations. So there is a vested interest in promoting 'food products' over actual food. This is what happens when schools are underfunded - they have to turn to corporate interests to stay afloat. And those corporate interests are not in our waistlines, they're in the company bottom line.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Indiana

No, I don't think there's any 'should' in there, it's just describing what currently is. It would be marvellous if everyone agreed not to discriminate based on looks, but I think you're going to have a hard time getting the whole world on board. It's taken long enough to just get the media to show a moderately representative range of people and that's an actual industry you can legislate against.

All you can do is decide that you are not going to discriminate based on looks. Everyone else, however, may not get on board, so it helps to know that there are ways you can respond to biases inherent in society.

I think you're right. Thanks. And it's good to see you posting again.

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

I will say it now with NO reservations: I AM SORRY! I APOLOGISE. That's it. Full stop. The end. I'm sorry.

Leaving the conversation now. And I'm not going to enter into another such conversation again, because clearly it's a minefield.

And, again, I AM sorry, as well as humiliated.

I hope you don't stay away from these conversations forever. I thought your input was valuable, and I didn't mean to make you feel bad. I work in a bakery, so I get comments about my weight every day. I'm kind of used to it, and I know we already PMd, but I wasn't mad at you, or anything -- I just wanted to point out that it's not much different whether people make comments about being fat or being thin. I'm sorry if I did that in an antagonistic way. We're all on the same side, and I don't think we should be fighting amongst ourselves.

Originally Posted by Brutha

If the social context that determines what you find beautiful is mainstream media, why do you expose yourself to mainstream media.

I started thinking about all of this because of conversations with my coworkers, not from looking at models.



Agota... I have to say that I completely disagree that it's easier for someone overweight to lose than it is for a naturally thin person to gain (and I say this as someone who's been struggling to gain a measly 5 pounds for the last 2 months). If it were that easy, they would probably do it. I don't think it's right to make assertions like that unless you've been in those shoes.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Agota... I have to say that I completely disagree that it's easier for someone overweight to lose than it is for a naturally thin person to gain (and I say this as someone who's been struggling to gain a measly 5 pounds for the last 2 months). If it were that easy, they would probably do it. I don't think it's right to make assertions like that unless you've been in those shoes.

I have no notion of how hard it is to lose weight, as that has never been an issue for me.

I can attest to the notion that gaining weight can be extremely hard...almost impossible, for someone who is naturally thin though.

[wanzulfikri]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I have no notion of how hard it is to lose weight, as that has never been an issue for me.

I can attest to the notion that gaining weight can be extremely hard...almost impossible, for someone who is naturally thin though.

Well, it is not impossible actually unless you have problems with your thyroid gland. There are websites that shows how to gain weight but efforts is a must.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by wanzulfikri

Well, it is not impossible actually unless you have problems with your thyroid gland. There are websites that shows how to gain weight but efforts is a must.

The only thing that ever worked for me was chinese herbal medicine...and that cost me too much to sustain. I put on 4 whole kilos in two weeks, which was more than I have EVER gained in my entire life. I lose weight easier than I can gain it...to a serious degree at one point.

I have not managed to go above 50kg since I was 18...and I'm 37 now. I don't feel unhealthy though, and I am petite, so it's more naturally skinny, but in the past I wanted to gain more weight and be a little more 'meaty' than I was. I'm pretty happy with my proportions as they are now though, but for the sake of the argument...

Can you name the websites that would give tips on how to gain weight, or is it just a matter of googling I suppose...

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

Mental beliefs surely manifest themselves physically, so by being concerned with looks you actually become physically better looking.

I agree with what's before the comma, but I think what comes after is an over-simplification. I think stress plays a major part in the aging process. Ultimately, I think our emotional states will make the biggest impact on our looks. Meditation is a great tool for slowing down the aging process.

[Mariana Trench]

Re: "obesity crisis". Good points on the the ridiculous school lunch standards, and their corporate sponsors. I'm on board there. What I'm not sure about, is this:

Don’t You Realize Fat Is Unhealthy? « Shapely Prose

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

I agree with what's before the comma, but I think what comes after is an over-simplification. I think stress plays a major part in the aging process. Ultimately, I think our emotional states will make the biggest impact on our looks. Meditation is a great tool for slowing down the aging process.

Oversimplified? To an extent yes, but it could also be argued that because of the halo effect, better looking people lead easier lives and experience less stress. Or make more money and have time for meditation, yoga, retreats, massages, manicures, even experience less disease, etc. that help preserve their looks.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

Oversimplified? To an extent yes, but it could also be argued that because of the halo effect, better looking people lead easier lives and experience less stress. Or make more money and have time for meditation, yoga, retreats, massages, manicures, even experience less disease, etc. that help preserve their looks.

It's a hard fact of life, but it's true to a degree. In my line of work though, even if a woman is drop dead gorgeous, if she doesn't give a good massage, she won't get picked as often as an average looking woman who gives a killer massage.

Good looking people do not need to try as much as 'average' looking people to get where they want to go. Is that fair? No.

That's life though. It isn't fair.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Re: "obesity crisis". Good points on the the ridiculous school lunch standards, and their corporate sponsors. I'm on board there. What I'm not sure about, is this:

Don’t You Realize Fat Is Unhealthy? « Shapely Prose

That is correct. It is more dangerous to be underweight than overweight, especially in the short-term (although we should probably draw a distinction between "slightly underweight" and "very underweight" -- but still, 30% overweight is not a crisis, 30% underweight definitely is).

If someone is overweight and all their numbers check out well (blood pressure, cholesterol, insulin sensitivity), then they ARE healthy.

That said, I think Kate Harding is missing one thing... the fact that obesity has actually increased in the last several years. She's probably right that it's genetically determined, i.e., I ate a SAD for my whole life until the last couple years but I'm obviously genetically thin. But for a large number of people, a "normal healthy diet" by modern standards causes weight gain. (Personally, I think that doctors, nutritionists, etc. recommend WAY TOO MANY grains, and that's the reason... I don't think it has much to do with junk food, because although yes there are junk food addicts, there are also plenty of people who eat "healthfully" and still can't lose weight.) But in some people that coexists with disease and in others, it doesn't.

[JSB]

I agree with some of what is posted there, at least about shaming and insulting people being wrong, but being very overweight ISN'T healthy, and human beings did not evolve to carry around half their body weight as fat.

As for the studies showing fat people live longer, the results were skewed by not accounting for the many thin or underweight people who are underweight due to illness (cancer, etc.). I read that awhile back, but let me look around and see if I can source it.

We tend to judge what is "normal" based on the "norm", the average of what we see around us. Today, in much of the Western world, there are many people who are obese, and many overweight people suffering from malnourishment. But just because it is "normal" doesn't make it healthy or ideal, any more than being severely underweight is healthy because it is "normal" in areas suffering from poverty or famine.

Please let me say again that while obesity IS a public health crisis and is disastrous for the health and well-being of the individual, this does NOT mean that the ideal is for everyone to be runway-model thin, or to berate themselves for carrying around a few extra pounds.

Some people are naturally very thin, and some people are naturally heavier. There is nothing wrong with carrying around a bit of extra weight if that is what one is genetically predisposed to. However, there is a huge difference between being carrying around a bit of extra weight and carrying around an extra 60 kilos of fat.

And, yes, BMI is nonsense.

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Re: "obesity crisis". Good points on the the ridiculous school lunch standards, and their corporate sponsors. I'm on board there. What I'm not sure about, is this:

Don’t You Realize Fat Is Unhealthy? « Shapely Prose

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

That said, I think Kate Harding is missing one thing... the fact that obesity has actually increased in the last several years. She's probably right that it's genetically determined, i.e., I ate a SAD for my whole life until the last couple years but I'm obviously genetically thin. But for a large number of people, a "normal healthy diet" by modern standards causes weight gain. .

Agreed. Certainly a large component of metabolism IS genetically determined, but I highly doubt that 60+% of the US population would be overweight if people weren't eating so much processed crap. Look at pictures from only 35 years ago: some people are fat and some are thin, but far fewer are fat than today, and extreme obesity is also less prevalent. In the late 1970's, Americans worked sedentary office jobs and watched lots of television and ate McDonalds. What they didn't do was ingest HFCS, eat so many "lowfat" (high sugar) pre-prepared microwaved meals, or eat ridiculously large portions (e.g. 20 oz. "single servings" of cola today vs. 12 oz. single servings then). Go back another 50 years, and there were even fewer overweight people: work was more often physical, people walked a lot, and everyone ate what was in-season and available.

Go back to 1900 or so, and this gentleman was considered so large that people would pay money to see him in a freak show:




Sure, he's heavy, but nobody would even notice him on the street today, except for his circus outfit.

[CoolBee]

Interesting article:

'Bombshell' investment banker tells Oprah how her ten plastic surgeries were an investment that transformed her career | Mail Online

"A Wall Street investment banker believes that her career has been boosted by an arsenal of cosmetic surgery.
The anonymous woman - who says that her life motto is A Chorus Line's 'Keep the best of you, do the rest of you' - has undergone ten different operations to achieve a 'killer body' and is convinced that the drastic changes are the making of her career.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Interesting article:

'Bombshell' investment banker tells Oprah how her ten plastic surgeries were an investment that transformed her career | Mail Online

"A Wall Street investment banker believes that her career has been boosted by an arsenal of cosmetic surgery.
The anonymous woman - who says that her life motto is A Chorus Line's 'Keep the best of you, do the rest of you' - has undergone ten different operations to achieve a 'killer body' and is convinced that the drastic changes are the making of her career.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Wow.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I was just trying to make the point that body-shaming for perceived unattractiveness comes in a wide range of forms, some of them harder for us to see than others because they are 'approved' by society in some way. A bit like the 'blondes are dumb' and 'gingers are ugly' stereotypes. People who wouldn't dream of making offensive jokes about fat people or black people will make blonde jokes or ginger jokes without giving it a second thought because those jokes are still seen to be okay.

Ahh yes, I cop jokes all the time about my height and it drives me nuts . While it'd be apparently rude to walk up to me and say "Gee you're fat!", apparently it's perfectly okay to come up to me and say, "Gee you're short!" And yet... short is much harder to fix than fat. I KNOW it's hard to lose weight (yes, I'm somewhat overweight now), but it's nigh on impossible to gain height (unless you want leg extending surgery ).

I actually got really upset and ranted at my husband one day, because he felt the need to tell me that one of his staff members commented on my height. A, I didn't know why he had to TELL me and hurt my feelings, and B, I didn't know why she had to open her trap and say anything to him about me .

But yeah, I've got a bit of a chip on my shoulder . I don't know why it's really rude to comment on someone's weight if they're overweight, but it's okay to say someone's skinny or a "stick figure" or someone's short or whatever. It seems far more polite to just not MENTION stuff about someone's appearance to them!

[GaryMichaels]

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

Actually, I was very surprised and pleased to find so many completely average looking people in the media (film, news, etc.) in Australia.


Tim Mathieson.

That’s the beauty of our country. Anybody can become a celebrity because we don’t judge on looks. We believe in giving everybody a fair go as long as they work hard and they have talent. I mentioned on a previous post that I believe personality is far more important quality than looks and my wife and our friends think the same way. We both have friends that are not great looking but they are wonderful people on the inside. People who only judge others by their image and criticise them for being ugly or fat are the ugliest.

I have friends that are overweight and are fun to hang around with. Most of them are down to earth and have a great sense of humour. Some of them don’t even care about being fat or let alone give a damn about what other people think about them and while I don’t encourage excessive eating I envy these people because they don’t buy into the whole propaganda that everybody has to be perfect. If they are happy being overweight who the hell are we to judge them? What they do with their lives is their own business and we can’t control them.

Not everybody wants to look like a movie star and they shouldn’t have to. The problem with the USA and a few other European countries is there are so many people obsessed with looking perfect and it is caused by what they see in magazines or on TV. There are teenage girls that starve themselves to look like their favourite celebrities and they develop anorexia trying to do it. Is it worth it? No. What a lot of them don’t realise is the pictures in the magazines are touched up on computers and the women are wearing an incredible amount of makeup.

I’ve seen what they did to my wife in her modelling photos and they removed her belly, freckles and made her tan. She's barely recognisable in some of the pictures and I think she looks more beautiful natural and didn't need any of that crap done to her. Some celebrities are incredibly skinny like Lean Rimes and when they pose for photos they are touched up to cover up their bones. A few years ago my wife did a presentation on it for LALS in college and she showed pictures of women that looked like sticks that nearly made most of the class want to vomit. If that’s your definition of good looking I am not buying it.

Thankfully it’s not as bad in Australia (well, at least in New South Wales) and the people are not high on looks when choosing friends or relationships. We have celebrities like Kasey Chambers, Gemma Luxton, David Kosh, Kyle Sandilands, Tracy Grimshaw, Andrew Denton, Julia Morris (Winner of this year’s Australian Celebrity Apprentice), Ryan Fitzgerald, Troy Cassar-Daley, John Williamson, Adam Harvey, Fictitious Smurf, Katie Noonan, Sara Storer etc that look like everyday people but have had very successful careers in this country. I’m not particularly a big Melinda Schneider fan but I think you should watch this video below and listen to the lyrics.

Melinda Schneider - Real People - YouTube

[Mariana Trench]

Another point that I saw sort of tangentially mentioned in this thread concerning How Things Are, and How Things Should Be. Both are worth discussing. The metaphor I like is How Things Should Be gives you a compass, and How Things Are gives you a map.

[Criseyde]

Check this out: Forever Healthy and Young - Perfection is Never Real: Before and After Photoshop

If the faces aren't shocking enough, make sure to note that they tend to slim down waistlines and increase breast size... and check out how Jessica Alba magically got taller!

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by JSB

I hate to say it, but here in the US, it seems normal dress like a slob.

I wouldn't be comfortable making a sweeping generalization like that. I've been to L.A. New York and Arkansas, among other places in the US. What's ''normal'' varies greatly upon each location.

[MessyJenny]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

This is the rub. I really feel like looks shouldn't be important. I don't think that facial structure, body type, coloring, etc. tells you anything about a person except whatever is in their genes (and perhaps what's in their box of hair dye ). I'm actually wondering if I have some issue happening on this topic, because I feel rather unhappy when people insist that physical attractiveness is important.

I feel the same but this is sadly not the way things are

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

Thankfully it’s not as bad in Australia (well, at least in New South Wales) and the people are not high on looks when choosing friends or relationships. We have celebrities like Kasey Chambers, Gemma Luxton, David Kosh, Kyle Sandilands, Tracy Grimshaw, Andrew Denton, Julia Morris (Winner of this year’s Australian Celebrity Apprentice), Ryan Fitzgerald, Troy Cassar-Daley, John Williamson, Adam Harvey, Fictitious Smurf, Katie Noonan, Sara Storer etc that look like everyday people but have had very successful careers in this country. I’m not particularly a big Melinda Schneider fan but I think you should watch this video below and listen to the lyrics.

Melinda Schneider - Real People - YouTube

Your country sounds like it is full of different values and attitudes on dating.

You are the first male I have heard say personality is more important on looks. It would be good if more males had the same attitude as you.

If the woman in the last picture is famous in Australia maybe we should all move there.

[CoolBee]

By the way, I just thought I should draw to your attention that Dove products (as in 'real women' campaign) are made by Unilever. The exact same company which promotes products called Fair and Lovely over here, throughout Middle East and India which are skin bleaches. Their advertising basically pushes the 'pale is better' and helps you get jobs etc.

Unilever - Dove

Unilever - Fair and Lovely

Not a lot of people know that.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

By the way, I just thought I should draw to your attention that Dove products (as in 'real women' campaign) are made by Unilever. The exact same company which promotes products called Fair and Lovely over here, throughout Middle East and India which are skin bleaches. Their advertising basically pushes the 'pale is better' and helps you get jobs etc.

Unilever - Dove

Unilever - Fair and Lovely

Not a lot of people know that.

Yes. Women in India do not want to get tanned. So they cover their faces when they go out in the Sun. It's the exact opposite in the West.