Is it important to be good looking?

[Agota]

I'm replying to the original post.

I've just finished "Influence", a book on persuasive psychology and there was a part on physical attractiveness playing a huge part in persuasion because people like people who look good more than those who don't look that good. I have to agree that I unconsciously like people who look good more than ones who don't and am more easily influenced by them. It all comes down to the Halo effect, the natural trend to perceive good looking people as more interesting, intelligent, funny, etc. Interesting thing is that studies show that it also applies to the people of the same sex, therefore it's not about sexual attraction (my personal experience shows the same thing, I'm straight yet I'm more compelled to to talk with girls who look good than the ones who don't when I meet new people). I think one of the best examples was given in one book by Malcolm Gladwell where he wrote about one president of USA who was an ordinary guy except he was really, really handsome and people voted for him and not for people who were actually better suited for the job but not as handsome. I don't remember his name, you'll have to look it up if you're interested. Apparently, looks do matter a lot, especially on unconscious level. That's why I love persuasive psychology: it makes you realize that yeah, you're just as unconscious as everyone else.

On a conscious level, I don't believe in the popular concept of the innate beauty the same way I don't believe in the popular concept of the innate talent. I had a lot of issues with my looks-related self-confidence during adolescence, so I gave the topic a lot of thought. I came to conclusion that all people are attractive, it's simply that attractiveness is either expressed or in potential. Consequently, I don't see ugly people: when I see someone who doesn't look that good, I see the potential in them if they'd do all kinds of things like get in shape, get nice clothes, nice haircut and so on. When people say that they are bad looking by nature I think that's BS. It's simply that potential isn't expressed yet.

I also don't really think that you can separate the so called innate attractiveness from grooming and personality, since they all work together when creating an impression on good or bad looks.

I've also came to realize that the concept of good looks is yet another concept existing only in my mind and therefore it lacks anything substancial and can be easily changed. E.g. I have never seen my ex as handsome before we got together and I didn't see him as handsome in the beginning of our relationship as well. Fast forward two years, he seemed really handsome to me. He didn't change that much. My perception of him changed. I still see him as quite handsome. I think everyone can recall something like that happening. It's only in our own minds..

[Agota]

I also noted that people often can't see beyond their personal preference of physical attractiveness. I remember how girls in school would have the debates which female stars are pretty and which ones are ugly. I have always find this a bit odd since almost everyone in entertainment industry looks good. I came to conclusion that many people who aren't really my type are attractive nonetheless in a general sense (let's say Cheryl Cole is really pretty to me and Rihanna would fall into "not my type but obviously hot" category). I like when people are able to see beyond their personal preferences.

[Focus Driblet]

I do care about attractiveness. I don't really feel that I find it important with male friends. But it seems to play a part with female friends, even. In an ideal world, I'd rather care about things that people have control over, things that they can improve. But I guess if I only cared about peoples personality, which often is toted as the ideal, external factors can take those away, like some disease that changes a persons personality for the worse, or just changes it to something that doesn't quite agree with me.

So I'm not really pleased with my preferences. But until someone can actually give me a way to stop caring about things like that (and rather care about things like personality etc), I will try my best not to feel bad about it.

[Agota]

Your looks actually tell a lot about your personality, so you can't really separate the two, can you?

I mean, your nose might not tell a lot about your personality, but your overall looks most certainly do.

[srikant]

if a girl doesnt find u attractive, accept it and move on. she will never fall in love with u . period. however, sometimes u find a girl who maybe likes ur looks, but likes ur opther qualities even more- like ur singing, ur compassionate nature ( yes im talking abt myself :P ) and then u realize there are women who will be attrated to u despite ur average looks

[RonSouther]

I think what is most important is that you keep your body as healthy as you can.

If you're gifted with good looks, great. If not, your health carries a beauty of it's own.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

It's also fleeting. Time is the biggest element, but there are plenty of things that can affect one's "beauty" (disease, accident, poor plastic surgery decisions, etc.). A rose may be very beautiful and fragrant, indeed, but eventually the petals drop off and the blossom fades away (and you don't even get fruit like you do with many other plants).

Actually roses leave rosehips, which are very nutritious .

But I see your point. When you look at a bunch of 90 year old women, can you really tell which ones were stunningly beautiful when they were young, and which were plain and homely?

[Indiana]

I think this question could be looked at another way: Is it helpful to be good-looking?

I think there's pretty much no doubt that it is. Humans respond well to things that give them aesthetic pleasure, whether it's a beautiful vista, an attractive person or a well-designed product (see: Apple). Impressive-looking people are definitely favoured over less impressive-looking people; study after study confirms it.

Whether this should be so is kind of irrelevant to me from an external perspective; there's plenty of evidence that is just is. From an internal perspective, I just try to stay mindful of the natural prejudice towards beauty, because it opens me up to a wider range of experience if I fight instinctive biases.

However, I honestly believe it's much less about the material you're given than how you work with it. If you're not naturally attractive but you want to be treated favourably, extremely good grooming/presentation can compensate for/significantly improve a lack of natural looks to the point where you're not disadvantaged at all, and can even have an advantage over good-looking slobs. If you dress better than 90 percent of people around you, if you have a sharp hairstyle, if you put together outfits well and have a strong personal sense of style, if you appear to take good care of yourself and be in good health, people will respond to you pretty much as favourably as they would a naturally beautiful person.

It's responding to the same aesthetic preference as for natural beauty, but it's controllable, and therefore empowering.

[ButterflyWoman]

The thing that really broke my concern with "looking beautiful" was the realisation that standards of beauty are not even the same from generation to generation. "Beauty" is not constant, and what is considered beautiful now may be totally out of fashion in a few generations.

Just as one example, look at the women Rubens painted. They were fleshy and dimpled. By modern standards, downright fat, sometimes. And yet, the women Rubens painted (most often he used his wife, Helene, and her sisters for models) were considered extremely beautiful by the standards of the day. Pale, pink, dimpled, and with generous curves. Not at all fashionable now.

Even Marilyn Monroe, with her hourglass shape, would be considered "too fat" by modern standards. And Betty Grable's famous thighs are a little too soft and too round.

In Medieval Japan, people put black on their teeth, because white teeth were considered to be crude and animalistic. For centuries in Europe, "pale and wan" was considered the ideal of beauty, and people wore cosmetics (often lead-based, which is pretty dangerous) to make themselves ghostly pale, and that was considered beautiful. And in Victorian and Edwardian times, women wore corsets, sometimes so tight their internal organs were literally displaced (permanently, in many cases) and they couldn't breathe properly (hence the stereotype of the Victorian lady fainting every time she got a little worked up!). In the "gin and jazz" era of the early 20th century, the ideal figure for a woman was boyishly slim, with no waist, no breasts, and no hips.

In other words, it's a never-ending and constantly changing horizon, and if you're fortunate enough to have been born looking like whatever is in fashion in your particular era, well, there you go, you get the benefit of being "beautiful". And if you would have been considered gorgeous by Rubens and others of his era but you were born in the 20th century, well, bad luck to you, eh?

[Indiana]

Excellent post, Butterfly Woman, but just to quibble:

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

Even Marilyn Monroe, with her hourglass shape, would be considered "too fat" by modern standards.

That's just not true. She simply wasn't any bigger than modern-day starlets, regardless of the baseless 'Marilyn Monroe was a size 14' rumour that regularly does the rounds. I mean... all you have to do is look at a picture of her to see how petite she is.

Scarlett Johannsen, Kate Winslet, Jessica Biel, Monica Bellucci, Salma Hayek, Christina Hendricks, Kim Kardashian - they're all curvy 'hourglass' women who would be no smaller than Marilyn, and probably bigger in some cases.

I actually think the standards for 'acceptable' female bodies are broader right now than they have probably been for the last 20 years.

[ZephyrusX]

How odd. I've never heard of that one before. The small, bonded up feet is pretty weird too. I forget what historical and cultural place that is from.

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

In Medieval Japan, people put black on their teeth, because white teeth were considered to be crude and animalistic.

I think beauty does have utility in our society. I've read studies saying pretty much that. If you are beautiful, you are more likely to get the job, more likely to get promotions, more likely to have higher salaries. May be it is the halo effect, as Agota says.

If we are going to ask whether beauty is important, I we ought to ask to what degree is it important. I don't consider my self a physically attractive person, but it is not as if I'm living on the street because of it. Would beauty help me out? Yes, of course. But just from personal experience, I can still get the rewards in life that I want based on personality, skill and good grooming (by good grooming, I mean basic hygiene and health. I don't mean putting on makeup, styling your hair and so on).

I think may be it is the difference between living from an abundance mindset vs. a scarcity mindset. I honestly do believe that I will get the career and fulfill the achievements I want in life based on personality, skill and good grooming. In my mind, I don't live in a world where natural/synthetic beauty is going to be the one factor that either 'makes' or 'breaks' my life. It may 'make' or 'break' a certain job prospect depending upon the circumstances, but there is another job out there waiting for me.

Whatever utility beauty may give us, it is seems relatively unimportant in my life.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Indiana

That's just not true. She simply wasn't any bigger than modern-day starlets, regardless of the baseless 'Marilyn Monroe was a size 14' rumour that regularly does the rounds. I mean... all you have to do is look at a picture of her to see how petite she is.

I'm referring to the countless people I've seen and heard saying that Marilyn Monroe was "fat", by their definition. Liz Hurley said once that if she was as fat as Marilyn Monroe, she'd kill herself. When you look at early pictures of MM, especially some of her "bathing beauty" shots, you see she had beautiful, womanly, full thighs and a rounded tummy. Compare that to Victoria Beckham, who is an actual fashion designer, with her "Lollipop" look (big head on a scrawny, skinny frame) and to Kate Moss, who was (and is) an icon of beauty and fashion.

That's the frame of reference I was using. NOT that I think MM was fat, but that a lot of people DO.

Originally Posted by Indiana

I actually think the standards for 'acceptable' female bodies are broader right now than they have probably been for the last 20 years.

They are improving, yes, but a Rubens-style figure is still out of fashion (and for the record, making fun of fat people is still considered socially acceptable in most circles; you can't make racist comments, sexist comments, ethnic slurs, etc., but you can ramble on about body size, and that's fine. BUT... that's another discussion ).

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

The small, bonded up feet is pretty weird too. I forget what historical and cultural place that is from.

China. They're known as "lotus feet".

Foot binding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[CoolBee]

Many years ago I did a bit of research with older teens (17-19) on female attractiveness using 6 different pictures of women.

Interestingly, some of the comments I received from young women were 'I wouldn't really want a very obese friend'. Young men on the whole chose a hot- looking, blonde, bubbly type as someone to be their girlfriend, but a more 'mumsy' looking type as potential wife material.

As someone who has been obese, I did have the misfortune to have someone I thought of as a good friend who I overheard one day (I came to the top of a staircase unexpectedly - she was giving forth below ) telling some male friends of mine that she liked hanging out with me because it made her look slim. She got dumped soon after by me and one of the guy friends asked me why on earth I was friends with her (though he didn't know I had overheard her and he didn't tell me what she had said).

Personally, my life was blighted from teenagehood by thinking of myself as unattractive.

I do just want to ask if you know of many very obese women in the UK or US who are in high positions in companies or government? I ask because my experience of the UK is that very obese women are very rarely found high up the trees because they won't push themselves forward because they know for sure people are looking at them with judgement thinking "look at the state of that, she obviously can't control herself in the face of a batch of cream buns, how dare she presume to have any opinions whatsoever".

Here in Egypt, while I don't condone extreme obesity as an aspiration, you find MANY women in high positions who are very obese. It does not define them in the way it does in the UK. I was very surprised when I ran a summer school for kids a couple of years back and all these ginormous women came along with their kids and they were all 'doctorah' this and 'professorah' that and 'head of the other government department'. In the UK none of them would have aspired to anything higher than Walmart Till Operator on the basis of their size.

[GaryMichaels]

Originally Posted by Agota

I think one of the best examples was given in one book by Malcolm Gladwell where he wrote about one president of USA who was an ordinary guy except he was really, really handsome and people voted for him and not for people who were actually better suited for the job but not as handsome. I don't remember his name, you'll have to look it up if you're interested.

Things must be run differently down under because this good lookin’ fella here has to disagree with you mate.



And quite frankly I don’t know any blokes that find her attractive



Hey, does anybody remember these guys? I believe they were good friends with the FS and TCD back in the day.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

Things must be run differently down under

Actually, I was very surprised and pleased to find so many completely average looking people in the media (film, news, etc.) in Australia.

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

And quite frankly I don’t know any blokes that find her attractive

Tim Mathieson.

[Criseyde]

Zeph: I agree about reification. I tried to think of something smarter to say all day yesterday but I got nothin'.

Originally Posted by CoolBee

I do just want to ask if you know of many very obese women in the UK or US who are in high positions in companies or government? I ask because my experience of the UK is that very obese women are very rarely found high up the trees because they won't push themselves forward because they know for sure people are looking at them with judgement thinking "look at the state of that, she obviously can't control herself in the face of a batch of cream buns, how dare she presume to have any opinions whatsoever".

Here in Egypt, while I don't condone extreme obesity as an aspiration, you find MANY women in high positions who are very obese. It does not define them in the way it does in the UK. I was very surprised when I ran a summer school for kids a couple of years back and all these ginormous women came along with their kids and they were all 'doctorah' this and 'professorah' that and 'head of the other government department'. In the UK none of them would have aspired to anything higher than Walmart Till Operator on the basis of their size.

I can't think of many people in US gov't who are very obese. I know there are bigger men than women, but I don't recall seeing people that are... uhm... very obese.

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

Compare that to Victoria Beckham, who is an actual fashion designer, with her "Lollipop" look (big head on a scrawny, skinny frame) and to Kate Moss, who was (and is) an icon of beauty and fashion.

From the flat, skinny girl... hey, that's not nice either, that "Lollipop"/"scrawny" thing...

And yes, I understand that it's a lot easier to be overly skinny than it is to be overly fat.

Originally Posted by Indiana

However, I honestly believe it's much less about the material you're given than how you work with it. If you're not naturally attractive but you want to be treated favourably, extremely good grooming/presentation can compensate for/significantly improve a lack of natural looks to the point where you're not disadvantaged at all, and can even have an advantage over good-looking slobs. If you dress better than 90 percent of people around you, if you have a sharp hairstyle, if you put together outfits well and have a strong personal sense of style, if you appear to take good care of yourself and be in good health, people will respond to you pretty much as favourably as they would a naturally beautiful person.

It's responding to the same aesthetic preference as for natural beauty, but it's controllable, and therefore empowering.

Doesn't this basically amount to saying "unattractive people should be held to a higher standard for the same treatment"? The only reason it matters is because we make it matter. What if we all decided that we weren't going to discriminate based on looks?


Maybe I should move to Australia.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

From the flat, skinny girl... hey, that's not nice either, that "Lollipop"/"scrawny" thing...

I do apologise, and it is noted.

But in my defence, Victoria Beckham DOES look like a lollipop, particularly with certain hairstyles that she chooses (that bob she wore for a while just made her head look rounder). So I was really referring to her, specifically.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Young men on the whole chose a hot- looking, blonde, bubbly type as someone to be their girlfriend, but a more 'mumsy' looking type as potential wife material.

It would seem that both guys and girl has this thing going on where they separate "dream bf/gf" from "dream husband/wife", dream boyfriend often being the hot adventurous stud and dream husband less interesting and less handsome guy. It often has something to do with their insecurities, since people often assume that hot people who are hit on everyday won't make good wives/husbands because they should be more inclined to cheat with all those opportunities flowing. I find this to be non-sense, though, and my dream boyfriend and dream husband is the same person (..and definitely hot!)

Originally Posted by CoolBee

As someone who has been obese, I did have the misfortune to have someone I thought of as a good friend who I overheard one day (I came to the top of a staircase unexpectedly - she was giving forth below ) telling some male friends of mine that she liked hanging out with me because it made her look slim. She got dumped soon after by me and one of the guy friends asked me why on earth I was friends with her (though he didn't know I had overheard her and he didn't tell me what she had said).

That's called a contrast principle, where if you see one girl who is good looking and another who is obese, you will perceive the good looking one as more attractive than you'd if she would be with a similarly good looking friend. I would say that girls who do that should sort out their own self-confidence issues and stop being bitches, though..

Originally Posted by CoolBee

I do just want to ask if you know of many very obese women in the UK or US who are in high positions in companies or government? I ask because my experience of the UK is that very obese women are very rarely found high up the trees because they won't push themselves forward because they know for sure people are looking at them with judgement thinking "look at the state of that, she obviously can't control herself in the face of a batch of cream buns, how dare she presume to have any opinions whatsoever".

I'll probably sound like a horrible person, but..

There really is a lot of hidden issues when it comes to obese women in high positions. There are people who are obese due to an illness, but I'm not talking about these cases now, ok? In general, you can read a lot from obesity. First, if a person is obese (I mean obese, not 5kg overweight), they clearly don't regard their health as important, which consequently often signals that they have a poor self-image and are not very serious about their own well-being. Second, the discipline issue is not that far away from the truth, because I don't think that there are many people who make a conscious choice to stay obese although they have all the discipline and anything else they'd need to get in shape. Third, obesity often comes from excessive food consumption (..I remember I asked why so obese people in US stay obese, because it's just plain dangerous health-wise and my american friend explained me that they think that "it's genetic" and continue to eat those enormous supersize junk portions we don't even have in Europe) and excessive food consumption signalizes unresolved emotional issues. When you add all this together, it isn't really the image of most desirable CEO for a company, is it? It doesn't even have to be true about that particular person, but because it's true in general, most people will get similar impression.

Now, all that aside, there's also the halo effect thing that we can't run away from. It's simple: if you have a good looking woman making a sales presentation and an obese woman making the same presentation, majority of people will automatically find the presentation made by hottie more interesting, better researched and more convincing. Companies make their living from employing persuasion tactics and they're very well aware of how good looks influence people's decisions. Also, it's true not only when it comes to an actual promotion: a good looking woman with a nice personality will find it easier to climb career ladders because people will unconsciously like her more than an obese woman with a nice personality, hence more doors will be open to her.

I think that although women are judged more harshly for their looks, the same thing will be true for men as well. I assume that if we will have a handsome guy and an obese guy who have similar qualifications and character traits, the handsome guy will progress in his career faster than the obese guy. We can see that in the president example and he was far less qualified than his competitors.

I think that importance of looks decline when people get older, though. My assumption is that people will judge an obese woman who is 40 less than an obese woman who is 20, because it's generally expected that older people don't look that hot and it can be simply written down to their age.

I don't want to sound judgmental, though, I'm simply sharing my observations from the persuasive psychology perspective

[CoolBee]

Originally Posted by Agota

I


..

There really is a lot of hidden issues when it comes to obese women in high positions. There are people who are obese due to an illness, but I'm not talking about these cases now, ok? In general, you can read a lot from obesity. First, if a person is obese (I mean obese, not 5kg overweight), they clearly don't regard their health as important, which consequently often signals that they have a poor self-image and are not very serious about their own well-being. Second, the discipline issue is not that far away from the truth, because I don't think that there are many people who make a conscious choice to stay obese although they have all the discipline and anything else they'd need to get in shape. Third, obesity often comes from excessive food consumption (..I remember I asked why so obese people in US stay obese, because it's just plain dangerous health-wise and my american friend explained me that they think that "it's genetic" and continue to eat those enormous supersize junk portions we don't even have in Europe) and excessive food consumption signalizes unresolved emotional issues. When you add all this together, it isn't really the image of most desirable CEO for a company, is it? It doesn't even have to be true about that particular person, but because it's true in general, most people will get similar impression.

These are the sort of judgments people do make though! When I was obese (and I hit a BMI of over 35 at my heaviest), I was very conscious of my ill-health but was super-achieving at the time, completed my PhD in space physics, senior manager working very long hours and so on, carrying a huge stress burden with no spare mental capacity to devote to dieting. Yet I knew people were making these judgments about me, consciously or otherwise.

Now I am normal weight (BMI currently 23-24), I know people who have never met me before and don't know I was ever fat, see me now in a business suit and I 'look' competent. Yet I am no more competent than I was before, I just 'look' it! It's interesting to notice how I am received and perceived!

As I said, here in Egypt, noone gives a fig about how big a woman is in terms of judging her competence!

[Agota]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

These are the sort of judgments people do make though! When I was obese (and I hit a BMI of over 35 at my heaviest), I was very conscious of my ill-health but was super-achieving at the time, completed my PhD in space physics, senior manager working very long hours and so on, carrying a huge stress burden with no spare mental capacity to devote to dieting. Yet I knew people were making these judgments about me, consciously or otherwise.

It seems that there are two sides of the coin, though:

a) If you're out of shape and your grooming is not that good, people judge you because you're not good looking.

b) If you're in excellent shape and your grooming is great, people judge you because you because you're good looking (because if you are blonde and have big boobs, you're clearly shallow and stupid).

You just have to choose which problem to have, I guess (I chose B ).

I think the second type of judgement is more popular in academic environment. I think it's because of the fact that many people who are successful there were nerds and have been bullied by good looking people of the same sex and rejected by good looking people of the opposite sex. I remember one guy in Cambridge who would consider every good looking girl to be either stupid or a slut. People just have issues

I have noticed that being in Cambridge (my ex studies there) drilled the association "nerdy lookin = smart" into my head, because most people there are not eye-candies to be honest, but really smart academic-wise. I work in parties now and we get like two nerdy looking guys a party and I have caught myself thinking "He must be really smart" few times already. The next thought would usually be "WTF I think he's smart?"

Also, when you're good looking girl, people also make assumptions about your sex life as well, which I find hilarious. I remember I read an interview with Nicole Sherzinger where she said that she never had a one night stand. A guy who read an interview with me claimed that she's obviously lying. I was interested how he can tell that, expecting some "Lie to me" sort of stuff, but got an answer "Because she's hot", the logic behind being that she clearly likes sex and is being hit on all the time by good looking man, so no way she could resist having a one night stand. This is just hilarious

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

I'm referring to the countless people I've seen and heard saying that Marilyn Monroe was "fat", by their definition. Liz Hurley said once that if she was as fat as Marilyn Monroe, she'd kill herself. When you look at early pictures of MM, especially some of her "bathing beauty" shots, you see she had beautiful, womanly, full thighs and a rounded tummy. Compare that to Victoria Beckham, who is an actual fashion designer, with her "Lollipop" look (big head on a scrawny, skinny frame) and to Kate Moss, who was (and is) an icon of beauty and fashion.

That's the frame of reference I was using. NOT that I think MM was fat, but that a lot of people DO.

They are improving, yes, but a Rubens-style figure is still out of fashion (and for the record, making fun of fat people is still considered socially acceptable in most circles; you can't make racist comments, sexist comments, ethnic slurs, etc., but you can ramble on about body size, and that's fine. BUT... that's another discussion ).

Well, assuming that the Liz Hurley quote is accurate (I can't find a good source), she is someone who was in the fashion biz in the 1990s, which was pretty much the industry's low point. (See also: Kate Moss) Today you're much more likely to see Rubenesque models (Crystal Renn, Toccara Jones, Lizzie Miller, Robyn Lawley, Candice Huffine, Tara Lynn, etc) as well as older women and less conventional beauties (Queen Latifah, RuPaul) everywhere from Italian Vogue to makeup advertisements. The industry is unlikely to change overnight, but it has undergone a relatively massive change in the last couple of years.

However, the industry is also different to 'the real world'. Ask some random person on the street if Marilyn Monroe was fat and I think you'll get a very different answer.

Also, as Criseyde noted, what it's REALLY okay to do now is criticise or talk offensively about someone because they're skinny. I know as someone who spent much of her adult life with an 18.5 BMI or below, that people have no problem saying to your face: 'What, are you anorexic or something?' Fat shaming seems to at least be regarded badly enough now that most people do it behind the person's back. (Not that it makes it all right!) But even you couldn't apologise to Criseyde without adding 'But basically what I say is true!' I'm sorry, but it's not. Victoria Beckham is very skinny but she does not look like a lollipop in any realistic way. It's just body-shaming to say she does. It would be just like saying sorry for describing a very fat person as looking like a jam bun but then saying 'But she does have red hair, that's just what I meant.'

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Doesn't this basically amount to saying "unattractive people should be held to a higher standard for the same treatment"? The only reason it matters is because we make it matter. What if we all decided that we weren't going to discriminate based on looks?

No, I don't think there's any 'should' in there, it's just describing what currently is. It would be marvellous if everyone agreed not to discriminate based on looks, but I think you're going to have a hard time getting the whole world on board. It's taken long enough to just get the media to show a moderately representative range of people and that's an actual industry you can legislate against.

All you can do is decide that you are not going to discriminate based on looks. Everyone else, however, may not get on board, so it helps to know that there are ways you can respond to biases inherent in society.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Also, as Criseyde noted, what it's REALLY okay to do now is criticise or talk offensively about someone because they're skinny. I know as someone who spent much of her adult life with an 18.5 BMI or below, that people have no problem saying to your face: 'What, are you anorexic or something?' Fat shaming seems to at least be regarded badly enough now that most people do it behind the person's back. (Not that it makes it all right!) But even you couldn't apologise to Criseyde without adding 'But basically what I say is true!' I'm sorry, but it's not. Victoria Beckham is very skinny but she does not look like a lollipop in any realistic way. It's just body-shaming to say she does. It would be just like saying sorry for describing a very fat person as looking like a jam bun but then saying 'But she does have red hair, that's just what I meant.'

This is a good point about being offensive to skinny people. I'm personally much more annoyed when someone makes comments about naturally skinny women than about fat people because most fat people could lose weight if they really wanted to, while putting on weight is very hard to do for females who are naturally skinny and offensively commenting on someones natural features (like A-size breasts, for example) just doesn't make sense.

[CoolBee]

Originally Posted by Agota

because most fat people could lose weight if they really wanted to .... putting on weight is very hard to do for females who are naturally skinny and offensively commenting on someones natural features (like A-size breasts, for example) just doesn't make sense.

I will agree to differ with you here without boring you with my personal story and I don't think judging obese people is 'more right' than judging skinny ones!

Also, you have assumed that obese people are not well-groomed when they often spend hours grooming hair, make up and clothes in an attempt to detract from their size.

I agree that it is offensive to judge anyone's capability to do a job or be intelligent or whatever on something so totally irrelevant as their size be it fat, thin or 'just right'.

It's a shame that in our Western culture we ARE so obsessed with looks. When I go back to the UK now, I am always shocked at the racks and racks of magazines aimed at teenage girls and women where practically every story is how this one got fat or this one got thin. Just don't see it over here.

Btw I'm not saying I'm any kind of non-judgmental paragon here. My conscious mind says I'm not, but I do occasionally catch myself unconsciously making the same judgments as other people do and have to bring myself up sharp.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Indiana

But even you couldn't apologise to Criseyde without adding 'But basically what I say is true!' I'm sorry, but it's not.

Okay. My opinion of Victoria Beckham is clearly wrong (even though at one point even she said she thought she was too thin) and I'm never going to mention it again. All I was trying to do was say that I wasn't intending to imply that ALL thin women are... whatever you think I was saying they are.

I will say it now with NO reservations: I AM SORRY! I APOLOGISE. That's it. Full stop. The end. I'm sorry.

Leaving the conversation now. And I'm not going to enter into another such conversation again, because clearly it's a minefield.

And, again, I AM sorry, as well as humiliated.

[Weaver]

I have some questions to add on to the OP's...

Is physical attraction and/or looking good, important to animals? Why?

Are human beings animals?

[Indiana]

I'm sorry you feel humiliated ButterflyWoman - that was in no way my intention, and I hope you don't leave the discussion because your contributions are valuable.

I was just trying to make the point that body-shaming for perceived unattractiveness comes in a wide range of forms, some of them harder for us to see than others because they are 'approved' by society in some way. A bit like the 'blondes are dumb' and 'gingers are ugly' stereotypes. People who wouldn't dream of making offensive jokes about fat people or black people will make blonde jokes or ginger jokes without giving it a second thought because those jokes are still seen to be okay.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

I will agree to differ with you here without boring you with my personal story and I don't think judging obese people is 'more right' than judging skinny ones!

I didn't say it's more right, because I don't think that making offensive comments about anyone is right, but it generally annoys me more when people make offensive comments about something that other person can't change, let's say they small breasts or big nose or whatever, than something that a person can change, let's say being overweight or being skinny for guys.

I don't know your story, that's why I said most fat people, not all fat people, since there might be a lot of different situations

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Also, you have assumed that obese people are not well-groomed when they often spend hours grooming hair, make up and clothes in an attempt to detract from their size.

I guess this was my general impression that severely overweight people kind of "give up" on their looks. I know that there are quite a lot of them who are better groomed than most people with a model figure, though.

Originally Posted by CoolBee

I agree that it is offensive to judge anyone's capability to do a job or be intelligent or whatever on something so totally irrelevant as their size be it fat, thin or 'just right'.

I think judging doesn't make sense, but I have to say that you can know a lot about a person from the clues his or her looks can give and I don't think it's wrong to use this information to evaluate whether a person is right or wrong for the job.

Originally Posted by CoolBee

It's a shame that in our Western culture we ARE so obsessed with looks. When I go back to the UK now, I am always shocked at the racks and racks of magazines aimed at teenage girls and women where practically every story is how this one got fat or this one got thin. Just don't see it over here.

I just think that media brainwashes women into thinking that constantly looking for flaws in yourself and then obsessing over them is a right thing to do. I mean, yeah, if you weigh 100 kg, you do have problem, health-wise first, looks-wise second, but is it really worth it to beat yourself with a baseball bat if you eat a cupcake when you're like 0.75 kg overweight? It just annoys me when girls who look perfectly fine spend their whole energy on the diets that they don't even need to in the first place (especially since most girls who are considered fat in my country would probably be considered models in US, since we literally don't have obese people and fat people are not that fat anyway). Girls like that are also very difficult to talk to when it comes to the topic of looks, because they feel threatened if you are actually happy about your body.Apparently, if you're not going to go on a diet and not whining about a spot on your nose you're full of yourself. It just annoys me.

[Brutha]

If the social context that determines what you find beautiful is mainstream media, why do you expose yourself to mainstream media.

For myself I think the strongest influence on which traits I find attractive comes from Salsa dancing. Strong positive emotions that I feel during dancing gets attached to the particular features of the girl I'm dancing with.

This doesn't mean that my taste is completely different then the taste of the average male. I value a high muscle tonus more than the average guy.

Today you're much more likely to see Rubenesque models (Crystal Renn, Toccara Jones, Lizzie Miller, Robyn Lawley, Candice Huffine, Tara Lynn, etc) as well as older women and less conventional beauties (Queen Latifah, RuPaul) everywhere from Italian Vogue to makeup advertisements.

I don't have name recognition with any of those names.

It can simply opt out of that part of mainstream media culture.

I don't see any reason to consume more mainstream media than I need to actively influence mainstream media.

[ZephyrusX]

I agree.

Originally Posted by CoolBee

I will agree to differ with you here without boring you with my personal story and I don't think judging obese people is 'more right' than judging skinny ones!

There are lots of assumptions directed at obese people that may or may not actually be true. Rather than making assumptions about people, how about giving them a voice and allowing them to speak for themselves?

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Also, you have assumed that obese people are not well-groomed when they often spend hours grooming hair, make up and clothes in an attempt to detract from their size.

Is the UK overly concerned with beauty now? My grandmother is from the UK and she'll watch British TV. Some of it is old. But I noticed the actors are all very ordinary looking and plain. I just assumed from her shows that the British weren't really all that concerned about physical appearances.

Originally Posted by CoolBee

It's a shame that in our Western culture we ARE so obsessed with looks. When I go back to the UK now, I am always shocked at the racks and racks of magazines aimed at teenage girls and women where practically every story is how this one got fat or this one got thin. Just don't see it over here.