Is it important to be good looking?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

ALG, it seems like all of those examples are attractive people who had a good photographer (perhaps excepting the last one, but the only thing making him 'unattractive' is the heavy wrinkles). Or am I missing something?

Okay, maybe I need a little compare-&-contrast to better explain what I mean.


To me, this is a conventionally handsome face. Good skin; young; well-proportioned features; well-groomed hair. However, I do not find this face interesting.


Now here is a conventionally ugly face. Wrinkled skin; dishevelled hair; can't even see his eyes in this photo. But this face has much more personality than the earlier one.


Here is a face that I personally would not consider "attractive". I personally don't think that such a hairstyle is nice and I think that her nose is too big for my idea of conventional beauty. Nevertheless I find this face very interesting and to me, it oozes personality.

[Acting Like Godot]

I think that maybe the word I'm looking for is expressiveness. I like expressive faces - faces that can powerfully convey a range of different emotions ... and the different aspects of the person's character.

Tom Cruise is an example (to me) of a handsome but uninteresting face. I mean, there seems to be a rather limited number of expressions he can have on his face.

Interesting faces:


Beautiful too.


Completely unattractive, and yet very interesting.


Too weird to be "beautiful", but oozes quirkiness, originality, emotion.


Boy, is he ugly ... but this is maybe a good example of what I mean about a face that shows a lot about what the person's personality, mood, character etc.

[cacheborn]

ALG, your main criterion for attractiveness seems to be expressive face, as you said. Would that restrict it to only good actors? Many people are capable of feeling, but they may not be good at expressing it effectively.

[Weaver]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Do you care about your level of physical attractiveness Why?

No. i care a lot about my physical health and fitness but i have no care about attracting people with typical good looks. all that matters is that i myself am comfortable with my looks and in order for this to happen, i need good health and fitness.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

How much do you care about physical attractiveness in others?

I admire typical good looks but i am not attracted to the physical good looks of others in a way that makes me just have to be around them and get to know them.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Where is physical attractiveness on your list of desirable qualities?

its not on my list. when it comes to a persons innate facial features i am neither for or against them.

Actually now that i think about it, the only people i am attracted to are those that are attracted to me. i admire people for having goodness whether it is inner and/or outer and i am attracted to the things people have that i want, such as certain knowledge, wisdom or skills that i want to learn from them, but i am never attracted to the actual person... until they are really attracted to me. strange... maybe i have just not met the right person yet.

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

This has been rolling around in my head for a while, and I thought it would make a neat thread.

Do you care about your level of physical attractiveness (innate -- I'm not talking about grooming etc)?
- Why?

How much do you care about physical attractiveness in others?
- Friends?
- Lovers?
- Everyone else?

Where is physical attractiveness on your list of desirable qualities?

None of the above. Its not important.

[votoshka]

Well...I may as well get it out there...

I have never been attracted to someone who isn't good looking. It sounds awfully shallow, but I don't think attraction is something I have actual control over! It'd sure be nice to be attracted to some really great guy with a really awesome personality, who just so happens to be homely... but for me... it just doesn't happen.

Sadly, I'm not particularly physically beautiful myself, which in a way makes mee feel rather hypocritical! I find it hard to expect people to be attracted to me, when I'm not attracted to average looking guys!

In the vast majority of my interactions with people, their appearance is irrelevant, but when it comes to romantic relationships it's a different ball game.

This IS something I struggle with, as I hate to think I have this defect that makes me attracted to only good looking guys . Overall, I see myself as this kind, accepting people who loves people for who they are and not what they look like... but with romantic love this just isn't the case for me.

My definition of attractive isn't as narrow as butterflyeffect's though... In fact, it encompasses quite a range of physical types, but all would fit into a "conventionally handsome" framework. Height is irrelevant, as is hair colour or skin tone. Generally you can just show me a pretty boy and he'll be attractive to me (although I don't fancy Justin Bieber... maybe because he's just too young though he may improve with time).

I do probably fixate on my own appearance a bit much too. I don't believe that fixating on how I look has made me more beautiful over time though (as BillyTheAdult sort of suggested ). I also don't spend hours a day trying to look more beautiful, I think because I'd rather just be naturally beautiful rather than "painted on" beautiful which can be washed off at the end of the day!

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I like interesting faces. Not necessarily "good-looking", in the way, for instance, models are good-looking.

Interesting faces (and generally, interesting appearances) mean, to me, a face or appearance that oozes (or seems to ooze) a lot of personality, and in a non-verbal way, says a lot (or seems to say a lot) about who the person is, what his or her mood, character or background is.

It's the same here.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

A very, very interesting face.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Too weird to be "beautiful", but oozes quirkiness, originality, emotion.

Interestingly to me, I find these two the most beautiful of all the pictures you posted. "Interestingness" gets factored into overall aesthetic appeal in my mind.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

This has been rolling around in my head for a while, and I thought it would make a neat thread.

Do you care about your level of physical attractiveness (innate -- I'm not talking about grooming etc)?
- Why?

I do, quite a lot, and quite a lot less than I used to. For me, there are two reasons I've been able to identify, one that I embrace and think is quite healthy and one that can be... well, next to tragic.

The first, and healthy reason is that I love beauty (not just visual beauty, and not just carefully crafted or glamorous or larger-than-life beauty of any sort). Beauty, in its broadest definition, is actually one of my highest values, and one of the things I love most about life. I love the experience of, creation of, and appreciation of beauty anywhere I can find it. I like being a part of that. I like appreciating the parts of me that I can see that way, and the occasions I can see myself overall that way.

The horribly unhealthy reason, that I've been able to move away from since my eating disorder days, is that being (or trying to be) conventionally attractive is a way to try to establish self-worth. That, hey, maybe if I'm perfectly f---able and nice to look at I can justify my existence. That also tied into cultural narratives about women that communicated, at least to me, that nothing else you do matters if you're not masturbation material.

How much do you care about physical attractiveness in others?
- Friends?

The only time I really notice physical attractiveness in friends is when a characteristic of theirs sticks out to me as exceptionally beautiful or interesting.

- Lovers?

I couldn't be with someone I found ugly or off-putting, but I've been told I have rather odd taste, and often times other characteristics will draw me to someone and I end up associating everything I like about them with their look, which makes them look more and more wonderful and sexy to me over time.

- Everyone else?

Much the same with friends. Sometimes something I find ugly at first glance will stick out to me too, but I don't tend to dwell on it, care, or do anything with that information...because there's really nothing to do with that information that's any of my business.

Where is physical attractiveness on your list of desirable qualities?

Hmm. I suppose that would depend for whom. I don't really have a general list of desirable qualities.

[Mariana Trench]

Some faces I find very interesting:







(They're all actors, that's how I found out I found their look interesting in the first place. To me interesting includes, but is more than, expressive--though that can be a huge part of it. It also includes features that aren't average but are pleasing aesthetically.)

[GaryMichaels]

Now this is a subject I have made way too many comments on over the years.

In my opinion it isn’t as important to be attractive as it is to have a great personality and that is why I would rather date an ugly woman with a good personality over a good looking woman that does not have one. Some people might think I am hypocritical making that comment since I am married to a former model but it was her personality that drew me to her not her body. Good looking people are a dime a dozen these days and it’s much harder finding a woman with a great personality than one who is good looking, shallow, egotistical and has the brain mentality of a five year old.

After my first girlfriend passed away and I tried dating again I made the mistake of trying to get close to women that looked like her (blonde hair, blue eyes, perfect smile etc) but were in fact nothing like her at all. Some you couldn’t even have meaningful conversations with and it was basically like trying to talk to a brick wall except a brick wall was more interesting. I come to find there are a quite a few people in this world that rely on their looks to cover up other issues such as Social Anxiety Disorder, Lack of Personality, Narcissism, Annoyingness, Egotism and in some cases even low self esteem.

That is not to say every good looking man or woman is like that because that is certainly not true but I have met some beautiful women over the years that may have been pretty on the outside but that beauty did not reflect on the inside and at the same time I have met some lesser attractive females that were fun, interesting and down to earth. Most of those women were married or in relationships and went on to live happy lives like one of my friends while the attractive women would wind up with partners that cheated on them or treated them like dirt.

Looks can be misleading and that is one thing my wife and I have had our share of experiences with in the past. When Hailey was modelling she met a lot of women in the industry that she said were rude, ignorant bitches that thought they were better than everybody else. One which I won't name would pick on the new girls and she got into a big fight with her. She still has friends that are in the modelling industry now but she believes a lot of models are bitches with huge egos. This is basically my definition is the term pretty from a Katrina Elam song. I think I may have posted it before.

For beautiful eyes, look for the good in someone every day.
For a beautiful smile don’t miss your chance to give one away
For beautiful lips say something sweet
For beautiful hands help those in need
That’s what it’s really all about
That’s what makes you pretty inside and out

ButterflyWoman wrote

Not especially. I've always been attracted to a person for their mind (sense of humour, intelligence, ability to carry on a decent conversation, etc.). I certainly recognise very attractive people (men, particularly; I'm hardly immune to a "sexy fireman" calendar!), but as far as relationships (friendship, romantic, whatever) go, I'm not fussed. In fact, I, personally, have tended to be somewhat distrustful of very good looking men. In my unfortunate experience, they tend to be arrogant and they tend to be users. (I know this is not true of all good looking men; this is only my own experience.)

Same thing with me but from a male perspective and this might sound a little corny but when I tend to judge a woman by the size of her heart.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

ALG, your main criterion for attractiveness seems to be expressive face, as you said. Would that restrict it to only good actors?

Nah, it's not really about acting.

It's more like I walk into a room of strangers, and what kind of face would I notice first? A face that tells (or seems to tell) me more about who this person is; what his personality is like; what his current mood is; what he thinks of the happenings around him.

I think that the reason why the Mona Lisa painting is famous is that the woman has such an interesting face.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Some faces I find very interesting

Oh, Leonard Nimoy. I've had a thing for him since I was about three. And David Krumholtz is definitely to my taste. If you stood Krumholtz next to my husband, you could be forgiven for thinking they're brothers.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

What is up with that? If I didn't have to go out, I'd leave the freakishly long hairs in and see just how long they would grow. Measuring time!

Report back with the results. ;D

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

Not especially. I've always been attracted to a person for their mind (sense of humour, intelligence, ability to carry on a decent conversation, etc.). I certainly recognise very attractive people (men, particularly; I'm hardly immune to a "sexy fireman" calendar!), but as far as relationships (friendship, romantic, whatever) go, I'm not fussed. In fact, I, personally, have tended to be somewhat distrustful of very good looking men. In my unfortunate experience, they tend to be arrogant and they tend to be users. (I know this is not true of all good looking men; this is only my own experience.)

I'm not distrustful of good looking men (then again, my idea of "attractive" is frequently questioned by my friends), buuuut, I feel the same way. I fall for other things. They just always happen to be really attractive, too. Bother.

Originally Posted by votoshka

I have never been attracted to someone who isn't good looking. It sounds awfully shallow, but I don't think attraction is something I have actual control over! It'd sure be nice to be attracted to some really great guy with a really awesome personality, who just so happens to be homely... but for me... it just doesn't happen.

Sadly, I'm not particularly physically beautiful myself, which in a way makes mee feel rather hypocritical! I find it hard to expect people to be attracted to me, when I'm not attracted to average looking guys!

In the vast majority of my interactions with people, their appearance is irrelevant, but when it comes to romantic relationships it's a different ball game.

This IS something I struggle with, as I hate to think I have this defect that makes me attracted to only good looking guys . Overall, I see myself as this kind, accepting people who loves people for who they are and not what they look like... but with romantic love this just isn't the case for me.

Thanks for your honesty.

I understand where you're coming from, hence my navel gaze about "I THINK looks shouldn't matter, but all the guys I like have been dead sexy!" But, from reading the other responses here, and looking at all these photos, I'm starting to think that I accept a much wider range of "attractive" than many people do. Maybe that's the case for you as well?

I do probably fixate on my own appearance a bit much too. I don't believe that fixating on how I look has made me more beautiful over time though (as BillyTheAdult sort of suggested ). I also don't spend hours a day trying to look more beautiful, I think because I'd rather just be naturally beautiful rather than "painted on" beautiful which can be washed off at the end of the day!

Same here. I actively try not to put too much energy into it, but... I've always thought my features were blended strangely, and recently, a few people have confirmed that (on their own -- without my asking). Maybe it's like ALG's penchant for interestingness, some people find that kind of thing really attractive and others think I just look weird. Either way, thinking about it hasn't changed anything!

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

The horribly unhealthy reason, that I've been able to move away from since my eating disorder days, is that being (or trying to be) conventionally attractive is a way to try to establish self-worth. That, hey, maybe if I'm perfectly f---able and nice to look at I can justify my existence. That also tied into cultural narratives about women that communicated, at least to me, that nothing else you do matters if you're not masturbation material.

Yeah, I'm back and forth with this. I decided to give it the middle finger a long, looooong time ago. I don't know, I'm totally not doing a good job of describing why I started this thread! I'll ponder it more and come back.

I think it's interesting how in other threads, we'll get people strenuously declaring that Looks Totally Matter, but they've all fallen silent here...

[Mariana Trench]

I'd elaborate more in the 'Lover's' category, but I don't want to embarrass Cado too much by going on about his gorgeous, hypnotizing eyes.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Yeah, I'm back and forth with this. I decided to give it the middle finger a long, looooong time ago. I don't know, I'm totally not doing a good job of describing why I started this thread! I'll ponder it more and come back.

I think it's interesting how in other threads, we'll get people strenuously declaring that Looks Totally Matter, but they've all fallen silent here...

Huh. I do wonder where they've gone.

[Angela]

Wow, when I think about how much time and effort I put into looking good (in more ways than one!) when I was younger, I have to laugh in exhaustion!

I'm just thinking about how when I had my appendix removed when I was in my 20s and it was so important that the scar not interrupt the smooth loveliness of my taut belly, and I asked the surgeon to make sure it was well within my tan line. Oh, gawd. (He did, by the way; I have the cutest, sexiest little appendectomy scar ever.)

And this time around, when I knew I was going to have my whole tum reupholstered, I didn't even bother to ask about scars -- that's just so outside the realm of my concern now.

Funny! Thanks for asking.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Angela

Wow, when I think about how much time and effort I put into looking good (in more ways than one!) when I was younger, I have to laugh in exhaustion!

Oh, my, yes. The hair, the makeup, the nails... The amount of time and money I spent on cosmetics and hair care products and so on is pretty absurd.

I would be late for school or an appointment or work because I could NOT be seen without my makeup on! I remember more than one occasion where I sat in my car doing my face as the bell was ringing and I knew I was going to get a demerit, etc. I seem to recall I eventually got suspended for a day because of too many tardy slips (I never understood that one; if you screw up, you get a day off? WTF?). Not all of those tardy slips were due to the "gotta have the makeup on" thing, but some of them certainly were.

I'm much better now, thank goodness.

[Mounds]

I don't think innate good looks make any difference.

I default to handsome, and if I dress the part, I can attract a lot of attention. Conversely, if I dress like a slob and don't trim my beard, I might as well be invisible.

Lately, I've found social interactions to be that much more exciting when you look good-- with men and women.

[Angelique]

I care about feeling attractive. Sure it feels good to be complimented, but if I don't agree, it doesn't register. I wish I felt attractive more than I usually do, but luckily, this doesn't deter me from flirting or feeling sexy.

For friends/family, not important.

Romantically, I do care. If I'm not attracted to them, what's the point? 'Attractive' embodies a number of different qualities. I've tried to pinpoint it before, but it seems there's no exact formula. Someone new, who was unattractive to me initially, will transform (or maybe it's me transforming) and vice versa.

I do love to gush about guys I find attractive. It's a bit of a hobby.

[ugly melissa]

I think beauty is very important. Sadly though, it's something I've never had, and never will. I beat myself up (not physically, lol - mentaly) on a daily basis because I'm not pretty, and I compare myself to other women, every day and wish I was pretty like them. I hate it. I'm a very insecure person. I'm very jealous of my best friend. Guys hit on her everywhere she go's. We'll wear matchng outfits and she'll get all the compliments and nobody says a word to me. Anyway, I try to look the best I can, and work with what I have, which is not much. I refuse to go out of the house if I haven't taken a shower, gotten dressed, and done my hair. Everything I wear must match, from head to toe. I don't care if my bra and underwear don't match, cuz nobody see's them, lol. But shoes, earings hair peices, stuff like that, must all match. Sometimes if I'm in a rush, I don't have enough time to get ready and do all that stuff, and it will make me feel soooo ugly! For example. If I'm dressed in pink, from head to toe, but can't find my pink sneakers and I gotta run out the door, and get stuck putting on blue and white sneakers.....that will totaly ruin my day and make me feel so inadequate and unattractive. I'll be self conscious about it all day and think people are gonna make fun of me cuz my shoes don't match. I worry all day about it. When I go out with my friends, I compare my outfits to what they're wearing and they almost always look better than me. So that will put a damper on my mood right away. I'll dwell on it all day and feel like crap. However, I don't judge anyone by their looks. I chose my friends cuz I like them as a person and cuz they'er supportive and fun to be with. They have great personalties and they make me happy. However, I couldn't be friends with someone that was really pretty, like a supermodel kind of pretty. That would no twork, cuz she would just be a constant reminder of how unattractive I am. My self esteem is at an all time low and I don't need that to make it even worse. So yeah, to me, looks are very important in myself. In my friends and family, no. I like them for who they are, not what they look like.

[nistacular]

I've always been a kind-of-attractive male, definitely above average. But for some reason I have never connected my looks with my self esteem. My brother used to make fun of me a ton though, for having long hair and various other things. Eventually that got to me and I started caring about the way I looked more. But as a naturally physically attractive person, I have never cared.... when people compliment me I don't really react. It'll make me feel awkward more than anything. Actually that's something I need to get better at, accepting compliments.... but yeah, I've never felt good or bad about the way I look.... in high school I rebelled, and argued with everyone about how looks shouldn't matter, which I still believe to be true to some degree. They matter more to some people. To me, they don't. I've dated a few different people, one was one of the most attractive people I've ever known, ever! But her personality was.... hyper, blunt, she wasn't too intelligent, and that bothered me... but when I was with this girl most people found unattractive, everything just felt right, because I loved her.... maybe not her body too much... but that didn't matter. As long as you have the right anatomy, personality trumps all :P

[Lanya]

Coincidentally, I discovered just a few days ago that I have a serious bias towards physical attractiveness in women.

If I'm sitting next to a woman at a bookstore or in a train or something, beauty completely determines whether I want to start a conversation with her. I think it's because of a desire for physical intimacy that I've been ignoring. It comes out in the form of subconsciously judging someone by their looks as a gauge of whether they're worth talking to. And so, I end up being friends with women that I'm afraid of developing a crush on. When it'd be easier to just develop friendships with women I'm not attracted to. Okay, that's kind of going off-topic.

I don't really have this bias when it comes to men, though. Probably because I'm straight.

I don't really care about my innate appearance, it's more about grooming. It's probably because I rarely, if ever, have had anyone outside family tell me I'm handsome or ugly.

[Ilique]

Society has put pressure on everyone to meet a physical beauty standard, which is sad and pathetic. Instead of focusing on health (so many models are NOT healthy), they instead make us feel like we can never be thin enough, can never have the right cheekbones, can never have the chiseled look or perfect hair or brilliant white teeth. Truly a travesty. People are out there with bulimia, trying to be thin - or over-whitening their teeth until they're impossibly fake looking - or having a plastic surgeon put in fake breasts or give them a new nose - all to try to fit a social belief that attractiveness is more important than anything else.

When I was younger I fed into this. I was never classically attractive, and it bothered me considerably. I found myself trying too hard to be attractive, and feeling hurt when others who were more naturally pretty would get attention when I didn't. It was impossible to build up my confidence and personality when I felt so inadequate.

And then I grew up. I evolved beyond the need to be classically beautiful and physically perfect (an impossibility for me). I capitalized on my intelligence, my innate talents, my compassion and my sense of humor. I came to people's notice not because I had the right nose or the perfect shape, but because I was witty, funny, smart, and talented. As my confidence grew, I found myself happier and more out-going, which gave me the opportunity to meet more people who found me interesting and fun to be with. I started being active in the community in different capacities, working with people and continuing to evolve.

I can remember a time when I realized how other people were now seeing me. I was dating a guy and he had mentioned to someone that we were dating. The person he was talking to knew me somewhat, and knew what I did in the community. This person told the guy I was dating that HE must be pretty important to be able to date ME. When I was told that, it made me feel pretty darn good. I still wasn't that physically attractive (I've always been plump and average looking) but my inner beauty had evolved so wonderfully because I realized that WHO I was mattered more than what I looked like.

I've never dated someone based primarily on their physical attraction. If a guy isn't intelligent, warm, with a good sense of humor and a ready laugh, then he could be the most physically desirable man in the world and I wouldn't give him a second look. But give me teddy bear of a guy with the right mental and emotional characteristics and I'm there! *L*

For those who are still wrapped up in physical attraction, please consider that those who are attractive have often done nothing to deserve it. I have found, overall, that those driven by their own level of attraction are often those the farthest behind in the development of their emotional and intellectual self. In simplistic terms, if you depend on your looks to get you what you want, you'll never grow. And if you choose your mate just because of their looks, you'll be very disappointed (well, unless you're both so shallow that nothing else matters .. *L*).

And consider that those who are not that physically attractive have usually not done anything to cause it. Until you know that person's life, you don't know why they have bad teeth or are overweight or have a crooked nose or warts or whatever. There are circumstances beyond people's control. Give them the benefit of the doubt and treat them kindly.

Melanie

[Criseyde]

Okay, here are my thoughts. I think Ilique summed part of it up, but here's why I started this thread.

I don't know if beauty is actually important. It seems like a strange thing to value, because it is meaningless. And yet, we attach so much to it. "Attractiveness is more important than anything else." That's exactly what I seem to get out of culture and people, sometimes. But it's entirely false. It's so pronounced, though, that sometimes it seems to me like we've erected this false god and are paying homage to it. What does it mean? What does it do? It isn't love. It isn't security. It isn't even ability. It's this completely arbitrary thing that doesn't have any actual application to anything.

So even when we say something like "everyone is beautiful," we're still privileging beauty -- we're still making it more important than it actually is. And, funnily enough, it's the one personal characteristic you can't REALLY change. You can dye your hair and eat healthy and put on makeup till the cows come home, but you can't change the planes of your face or the width of your pelvis.

Why?

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Nah, it's not really about acting.

It's more like I walk into a room of strangers, and what kind of face would I notice first? A face that tells (or seems to tell) me more about who this person is; what his personality is like; what his current mood is; what he thinks of the happenings around him.

I think that the reason why the Mona Lisa painting is famous is that the woman has such an interesting face.

Okay. The other thing that struck me is I read from your posts that you see energy around people. I was wondering if that in any way affects your impression. So a conventionally good looking person, having negative energy, might not seem attractive. Something like that.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

It seems like a strange thing to value, because it is meaningless.

It's also fleeting. Time is the biggest element, but there are plenty of things that can affect one's "beauty" (disease, accident, poor plastic surgery decisions, etc.). A rose may be very beautiful and fragrant, indeed, but eventually the petals drop off and the blossom fades away (and you don't even get fruit like you do with many other plants).

Originally Posted by Criseyde

And, funnily enough, it's the one personal characteristic you can't REALLY change.

I would argue that intelligence is largely unchangeable. You can increase your knowledge, and improve your thinking ability (through various training programs, etc.), but if someone is not naturally in the far end of the intelligence bell curve, they're just never going to be there. I'm sure there are other personal characteristics that are similar, but I can't think of any just at the moment (I'm just about to shoot out the door, though ).

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

I would argue that intelligence is largely unchangeable. You can increase your knowledge, and improve your thinking ability (through various training programs, etc.), but if someone is not naturally in the far end of the intelligence bell curve, they're just never going to be there. I'm sure there are other personal characteristics that are similar, but I can't think of any just at the moment (I'm just about to shoot out the door, though ).

Maybe IQ isn't changeable, but I think IQ is meaningless for most people. Emotional intelligence is more useful and important (because anyone with an average+ IQ can do whatever they want -- society is made for people with average IQs, and 68% of people are within one standard distribution of the mean, whereas only 15% of people are more than one standard deviation below the mean).

And emotional intelligence is definitely changeable.

If you don't like IQ/EQ, there's also the fluid/crystallized theory of intelligence, and it seems to me that both can be improved.

[ZephyrusX]

Just wait... One day we will be able to do this... I wonder what that would involve?

I think it is problematic to affix meaning to beauty that is often not there, but what about valuing beauty simply as an end in it self? I think, perhaps, that is where the problem arises. We judge our selves as either being beautiful or not, but then, we make that out to be something more than it really is, like 'If I'm not beautiful, then I'm not worthy!'

Originally Posted by Criseyde

You can dye your hair and eat healthy and put on makeup till the cows come home, but you can't change the planes of your face or the width of your pelvis.

[ZephyrusX]

I wonder if it makes sense to speak of beauty in terms of reification? I'm just totally pulling this out of my ass, but may be beauty was once simply valued as an inherent aesthetic value only to later take on greater social and class meaning in a capitalistic society? May be not though. I think beauty always had some underlying class implication behind it beyond having intrinsic meaning (though admittedly, its not as if I am well versed in the history of beauty and aesthetics).

Reification (Marxism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Maybe IQ isn't changeable, but I think IQ is meaningless for most people.

Well, yes. It measures your ability to do well on IQ tests.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Emotional intelligence is more useful and important [...] And emotional intelligence is definitely changeable.

Quite possibly. In fact, it tends to increase with age and experience, but most people never seem to develop much of it at all, ever (just like "common sense", which seems to be quite uncommon when all is said and done.)

Originally Posted by Criseyde

there's also the fluid/crystallized theory of intelligence, and it seems to me that both can be improved.

I'll have to do some reading on that one. Sounds interesting!

The thing is, I have always been intelligent. Not emotionally intelligent, not wise, but from the time I could think, I could think well in ways that generally indicate intelligence. That has never changed. My EQ (which was pretty low for a lot of my life) often actually interfered, of course.

My looks, on the other hand, have changed constantly, my entire life. I've been thinner, fatter, younger, older, cuter, not as cute, and so on. I do actually think I could take steps to improve the way other people perceive me (as far as "beauty" goes), i.e., I could stand to lose some weight, get my teeth fixed (I have some missing ones; I normally wear a partial denture, but having implants would help, I think), get cosmetic surgery, etc. I'm just not really motivated in that direction. If people want to deal with me, they have to do it on an intellectual and emotional level, and if they can't get past what I do or not not look like, it's their loss.

[ZephyrusX]

Oh, I've been sitting here thinking about this, so I might as well share my thoughts. Go, wall of text!

I think there are obvious capitalistic relationships behind beauty, but I was thinking of it more in terms of false consciousness. Marx observed that the economy is a creation of human beings, and therefore, it is amendable to our will, but he used reification or the fetishism of commodities as a term to refer to our false consciousness. People think that the economy is something that is immutable and an outside force that is the determining factor of their lives (as if it was a god/idol) as opposed to a creation of human beings. They also think that it also takes on added social meaning beyond its inherent purpose or being, like the social value attached to socioeconomic class. He used the term class consciousness to refer to a state of being that transcends this idolatry or falseness in a way that empowers us to take conscious responsibility and action for our lives.

May be we could swap the economy with beauty? It is not a completely accurate comparison, I suppose as Marxism is obviously about the production of labour and not beauty. But yah… there you go…

Anyway, to answer the other questions, I appreciate beauty in other people and in myself. I’ve been told that I have very relaxed tastes when it comes to appreciating the physical appearances of other people (often in a way that is condescending as if this were a ‘bad thing’… like beauty is supposed to be a scare commodity or something). I can’t comment on the lover thing as I’ve never even dated, but I suspect I would have to at least be physically attracted to the person. Regardless, I’d ideally like to reach the point where I see beauty for simply for what it is; beauty. It is something that is just there, I guess. I agree it isn’t really that important and that it doesn’t have any absolute connection with any other value (though I anticipate people will come into this thread and beg to differ).

In relation to other attributes, I don’t think physical appearances are all that important. I do appreciate it, but I tend to appreciate a person’s spirit more. I suppose a person’s values and how they chose to conduct themselves in life is the closest thing I’d equate with the spirit.

I’m not sure how I would define beauty though. May be, in a very crude way, it is simply something I like. But then, something I like must be important. Hmm… may be… or not… I like birds; I could sit there for hours watching them as I think they are beautiful to watch. But it is not as if I’m sitting there thinking, ‘Oh birdie! You are the centre of my world!’…

That is reserved for my cat.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I wonder if it makes sense to speak of beauty in terms of reification? I'm just totally pulling this out of my ass, but may be beauty was once simply valued as an inherent aesthetic value only to later take on greater social and class meaning in a capitalistic society? May be not though. I think beauty always had some underlying class implication behind it beyond having intrinsic meaning (though admittedly, its not as if I am well versed in the history of beauty and aesthetics).

Reification (Marxism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[wanzulfikri]

I guess the perception of beauty is not the same for everyone initially but cultures and the environment somehow changed our views of beauty.