New relationship?

[GaryMichaels]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I'm not sure if he is in love with me? I don't think so...but I don't know. I know he really likes me, and I like him as well.

I guess that is a big question and it can be rather difficult to figure out sometimes depending on the type of person you are with. For example, with me Hailey knew how I felt about her because I was blushing in front of her and screwing up sentences and I had never done that in front of a woman before but she was special. I knew when she was in love with me too and I could see it every time I stared into her eyes but some people can be very good at hiding it and don’t like to tell.

One thing I just read on your reply to Agota’s post is you have been deliberately not cuddling when he has tried to and if has baffled you a little because you need cuddles and affection. Perhaps this alone is a sign that your feelings for him are not strong and you just want him as a friend. My wife and I love cuddling each other and it is probably our favourite thing to do. Holding her in my arms is the best feeling in the world and if you don’t feel any chemistry when you are doing that maybe the man you have been with is not the right one for you. I could be wrong but that’s a bit strange.

Have you ever had this problem in past relationships or only this one?

We do have some things in common, such as a love for Frank Zappa and massage. Yes, he has been honest with me, and he would have preferred to not have these things affecting him just when he has met someone he likes alot, but that's life.

Well at least he has good taste in music lol

Yikes! I don't know what I'd do if my female friend got together with my father...that'd be weird!

Trust me, it wasn’t easy for Hailey. It drew a wedge between her and Teresa up until the day he died and they haven’t been as close as they used to be because of this. Hailey actually knew Teresa had a crush on her father but she never thought anything would happen between them. When she found out they didn’t talk to each other for a few months and I probably heard her complain about how embarrassing it was for her a thousand times. Hailey’s mother took it even harder when she found out and she was absolutely disgusted with her ex husband’s actions since Teresa used to be like a second daughter for both of them.

I've never even heard of Rockwiz, let alone gone to see it. What is Rockwiz?

Rockwiz is a music trivia TV show that airs on SBS on Saturday nights and it is filmed in front of a live audience at the Esplanade Hotel in St Kilda. The show is hosted by Julia Zemiro and features singers, musicians and music journalists from Australia and all over the world. Hailey and I know some of the guests that have appeared on the show such as Ella Hooper and Abby Dobson and we have seen the show live a few times and even got free tickets. It is very similar to the show, Spicks and Specks.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

I guess that is a big question and it can be rather difficult to figure out sometimes depending on the type of person you are with. For example, with me Hailey knew how I felt about her because I was blushing in front of her and screwing up sentences and I had never done that in front of a woman before but she was special. I knew when she was in love with me too and I could see it every time I stared into her eyes but some people can be very good at hiding it and don’t like to tell.

Muff (that's his nickname) has been trying to impress me lately, but he doesn't really screw up his words around me. We have a very awesome sense of ease and comfort between us, that I have never experienced before with anyone. It's like we are married, but without the sexual attraction on my side. It's a hard thing to truly convey to anyone who isn't me...but I'm sure you get what I mean.

One thing I just read on your reply to Agota’s post is you have been deliberately not cuddling when he has tried to and if has baffled you a little because you need cuddles and affection. Perhaps this alone is a sign that your feelings for him are not strong and you just want him as a friend. My wife and I love cuddling each other and it is probably our favourite thing to do. Holding her in my arms is the best feeling in the world and if you don’t feel any chemistry when you are doing that maybe the man you have been with is not the right one for you. I could be wrong but that’s a bit strange.

Have you ever had this problem in past relationships or only this one?

I actually think it is a combination of just simply not having had anyone to cuddle for so long that I've literally gotten so used to not having them that having them is suddenly a weird thing to get used to? That, and I think I have a bit of a fear that it will turn into a sexual thing, which I'm obviously not feeling at this time. That, and he smokes, so his clothes and breath reek, which I find to be totally a turn off...and he knows this now.

I did have a bit of an issue with being affectionate with the last guy I was seeing in a friends with benefits context...but I think that had to do with him being pretty rude and me not totally trusting him. He did a few things to me, during sex, that really were inappropriate and against my boundaries, which I clearly and firmly lay out for him a number of times, which he chose to not take seriously...so I cut him loose.

I remember I used to be very affectionate years ago, but perhaps all the trauma I have been through and just recovering, for the most part, on my own and without support...perhaps being touched by men is just something I am having trouble with at the moment.

I think my job is helping in that regard, as I have full control over my clients bodies for the time I am massaging them, but they aren't allowed to touch me.

Well at least he has good taste in music lol

Aye...that he does.

Trust me, it wasn’t easy for Hailey. It drew a wedge between her and Teresa up until the day he died and they haven’t been as close as they used to be because of this. Hailey actually knew Teresa had a crush on her father but she never thought anything would happen between them. When she found out they didn’t talk to each other for a few months and I probably heard her complain about how embarrassing it was for her a thousand times. Hailey’s mother took it even harder when she found out and she was absolutely disgusted with her ex husband’s actions since Teresa used to be like a second daughter for both of them.

It sounds pretty full on. I'm reminded of "American Beauty" the movie.

Rockwiz is a music trivia TV show that airs on SBS on Saturday nights and it is filmed in front of a live audience at the Esplanade Hotel in St Kilda. The show is hosted by Julia Zemiro and features singers, musicians and music journalists from Australia and all over the world. Hailey and I know some of the guests that have appeared on the show such as Ella Hooper and Abby Dobson and we have seen the show live a few times and even got free tickets. It is very similar to the show, Spicks and Specks.

Ah, ok. I think I have heard of it somewhere. The Espy always has good things going on there. It's pretty famous for live bands from everywhere. It's on the other side of town to me though, so I don't often go there.

Sounds good though.

[danas]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I actually think it is a combination of just simply not having had anyone to cuddle for so long that I've literally gotten so used to not having them that having them is suddenly a weird thing to get used to? That, and I think I have a bit of a fear that it will turn into a sexual thing, which I'm obviously not feeling at this time. That, and he smokes, so his clothes and breath reek, which I find to be totally a turn off...and he knows this now.

hmm...Im not sure I buy this...Of course I could be wrong but for myself at least I know that despite having lots of fears, and not having been cuddled for a while, when Im with someone I like, I want to cuddle them. Attraction is a primary indication.
Now Im with someone who I also have some questions marks about if I think of it logically, but if I put logic aside I know I just wanna be in his arms all day....
I can relate to what you write here, as sometimes after we reach a certain age, we think we must compromise on certain things, and yes maybe we do.
The question is what ?
I dont think we should compromise on basic needs such as being with someone you love to be with physically.
For instance I know I'm very sensitive and I need a lot of affection. In the long run I'd be miserable with someone who is less sensitive and not affectionate. So Im willing to be with someone who has less money but is more sensitive. As money doesnt make me happy as much as feeling cared for and understood does.

Maybe think of your primary needs, how do you want to feel in a relationship? and see if you are feeling that way with this guy. Maybe only partly? if so, how important to you are the missing parts

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by danas

hmm...Im not sure I buy this...Of course I could be wrong but for myself at least I know that despite having lots of fears, and not having been cuddled for a while, when Im with someone I like, I want to cuddle them. Attraction is a primary indication.
Now Im with someone who I also have some questions marks about if I think of it logically, but if I put logic aside I know I just wanna be in his arms all day....

Are you speaking of someone you have known for a long time, or someone you have known for a week, as with me?

I can relate to what you write here, as sometimes after we reach a certain age, we think we must compromise on certain things, and yes maybe we do.
The question is what ?
I dont think we should compromise on basic needs such as being with someone you love to be with physically.

I don't either, but is it so strange to not feel totally into cuddling someone you've only known for a week? I like him a lot but for some reason I was not into being as affectionate with him as he was with me? I don't really know why? At least, I am not sure right now why?

For instance I know I'm very sensitive and I need a lot of affection. In the long run I'd be miserable with someone who is less sensitive and not affectionate. So Im willing to be with someone who has less money but is more sensitive. As money doesnt make me happy as much as feeling cared for and understood does.

Well, maybe I am not affectionate or sensitive for him? I've just been told as much in fb messages from him...and I was insensitive to him, but it seems there were some misunderstandings..

Maybe think of your primary needs, how do you want to feel in a relationship? and see if you are feeling that way with this guy. Maybe only partly? if so, how important to you are the missing parts

I want to feel beautiful, adored and cared for. I want to feel wanted and loved.

I think I felt this with him.

It looks like we won't get to see what it was about though...I just got off messaging with him, and after I had been insensitive towards him by mistakenly asking him a question regarding stuff to do with work, it appears I didn't think of his feelings...and I apologized.

He then went on to accuse me of hitting, pinching and putting my hand and foot to his throat and pushing him away...in a supposedly 'playful' way which really had violent undertones to it (according to him.)

I have no recollection of doing any of these things, and feel very mad at his accusations. It was only the other night and I don't remember doing any of the things he said, and if I did, they would have only been in a playful way...but he is making it out that I was violent towards him.

I don't know what to do? I feel really confused. The whole thing has been destroyed now.

[danas]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Are you speaking of someone you have known for a long time, or someone you have known for a week, as with me?

Well in my case it was weird, bc I was only introduced to him about a project and spent half an hour with him and that night I went to bed thinking "I could marry that guy". Which made me ask myself why I thought such a strange thought so soon, and I realized that during that first half hour I sensed he was confident in himself, completely authentic, was very caring and found a lot of interest in me and was trying to be helpful. Plus he had some smart and sensitive things to say about my art. Now its a month later and we have hit it off in a way... And I still feel the same, only stronger.

But I agree that after a week its not always easy to know. Ive had instances in the past where I grew to like someone. But thats more rare for me...

I don't either, but is it so strange to not feel totally into cuddling someone you've only known for a week? I like him a lot but for some reason I was not into being as affectionate with him as he was with me? I don't really know why? At least, I am not sure right now why?

There's not always a logical reason for these things. Youre an attractive woman, of course he is attracted to you. Im sure many men are.

Well, maybe I am not affectionate or sensitive for him? I've just been told as much in fb messages from him...and I was insensitive to him, but it seems there were some misunderstandings..



I want to feel beautiful, adored and cared for. I want to feel wanted and loved.

I think I felt this with him.

It looks like we won't get to see what it was about though...I just got off messaging with him, and after I had been insensitive towards him by mistakenly asking him a question regarding stuff to do with work, it appears I didn't think of his feelings...and I apologized.

He then went on to accuse me of hitting, pinching and putting my hand and foot to his throat and pushing him away...in a supposedly 'playful' way which really had violent undertones to it (according to him.)

I have no recollection of doing any of these things, and feel very mad at his accusations. It was only the other night and I don't remember doing any of the things he said, and if I did, they would have only been in a playful way...but he is making it out that I was violent towards him.

I don't know what to do? I feel really confused. The whole thing has been destroyed now.

Many red flags here
I was once with a guy who was blaming me like this very early on. I had my own unresolved issues at the time (and many friends telling me to give it chance), 8 months later I finally did leave him. Today I wouldve saved myself the time and left just after I felt things were going wrong, which was after a few weeks.
This guy makes you feel guilty. You have nothing to feel guilty about. he sounds insecure and problematic

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by danas

Many red flags here
I was once with a guy who was blaming me like this very early on. I had my own unresolved issues at the time (and many friends telling me to give it chance), 8 months later I finally did leave him. Today I wouldve saved myself the time and left just after I felt things were going wrong, which was after a few weeks.
This guy makes you feel guilty. You have nothing to feel guilty about. he sounds insecure and problematic

He has been utterly relentless in telling me I did these things. He said I pinched, slapped and hit him and also pushed my foot into his throat and pushed him away, and also put my hand to his throat. He says I was pretending to be playful but there was a violent undertone to it.

I really didn't do these things. I have a vague memory of laughing with him and me and him on my bed, with me putting my foot towards his throat area...very gently, and pushing...but it was seriously just for fun...like we were laughing and mucking around. I have done stuff like this before with male friends...and I do love to wrestle with them. I grew up with brothers, and I concede that I do like to 'play rough' at times, but I honestly wasn't doing that last night with him.

The foot thing I have a vague recollection of, but the other things I swear I never did. Is it possible I have just forgotten? Of god...now it's starting to really mess with my head. Did I do those things? I can't imagine I would, and certainly not in a serious way.

It was last night. I was not stoned. He claims I did all these things from an unconscious place, and when I told him to look up the definition of gaslighting he told me I was projecting. He said to just accept that it was an anomoly at work. I said NO, it wasn't, it was a hallucination on his part and had nothing at all to do with me.

I said I would drop his phone off in his letterbox tomorrow and then I want no more contact with him.

I feel really upset and confused. My solar plexus feels weird, though it has improved from 20 minutes ago.

I have told him that he can keep telling me I did these things forever, but I will never believe him. He has serious issues I think..but he is making it all about me, and trying to make me doubt myself. He keeps insisting it happened and acting all calm...and supportive.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by danas

Well in my case it was weird, bc I was only introduced to him about a project and spent half an hour with him and that night I went to bed thinking "I could marry that guy". Which made me ask myself why I thought such a strange thought so soon, and I realized that during that first half hour I sensed he was confident in himself, completely authentic, was very caring and found a lot of interest in me and was trying to be helpful. Plus he had some smart and sensitive things to say about my art. Now its a month later and we have hit it off in a way... And I still feel the same, only stronger.

But I agree that after a week its not always easy to know. Ive had instances in the past where I grew to like someone. But thats more rare for me...

He sounds nice.

I never got the thought that I could marry this friend, just an intrugeing feeling of intense ease and comfort, as though we had been friends for many years, which would ordinarily be a good thing, but making out that I'm not being cuddly enough after a week of knowing him...

I did feel that he cares about me. I think I may have been scared at how intense the feelings were between us. I'm not willing to put up with gaslighting to this degree though. He insists I did those things though?

I don't remember doing them.

[elucidate]

I guess to be fair, he asked me how I thought he felt, after I asked him a question that related to a person I am sexually attracted to at work. I can see how he found this insensitive, although after he told me the other day that he wasn't feeling sexual towards me either, I thought it was ok to mention another person I did like sexually. Maybe that was not considerate enough, and I must have misunderstood because he said that he did feel sexual towards me and I KNEW it...but I didn't. I really thought he meant he wasn't wanting sex with me either, but I guess I didn't take it the way he meant it?

I do feel guilty, but maybe that is appropriate guilt? I brought up an issue about a guy I am sexually attracted to to a guy who is sexually attracted to me, and whom I am not sexually attracted to...and not receiving any sort of affection or touch.

I was telling him about how I wanted this other guy to touch me, so I can see how that would have upset him and how I wasn't considerate enough of his feelings, but it wasn't intentional...I thought we were clear about not wanting sex. I was wrong it would appear.

I think there were assumptions made on both sides.

It was after this that he started up with the stuff about me being violent towards him.

Honestly, have we become that sensitive these days that I can't even gently push a friend whilst we are laughing without being accused of being violent?

[danas]

Originally Posted by elucidate

He claims I did all these things from an unconscious place, and when I told him to look up the definition of gaslighting he told me I was projecting. He said to just accept that it was an anomoly at work. I said NO, it wasn't, it was a hallucination on his part and had nothing at all to do with me.

Hmm he sounds like he was projecting his own stuff
And in any case, doesnt sound fun and light as it should be in the beginning at least.

Originally Posted by elucidate

He sounds nice.

He is, although there might just be too many odds working against us...

Originally Posted by elucidate

I guess to be fair, he asked me how I thought he felt, after I asked him a question that related to a person I am sexually attracted to at work. I can see how he found this insensitive, although after he told me the other day that he wasn't feeling sexual towards me either, I thought it was ok to mention another person I did like sexually. Maybe that was not considerate enough, and I must have misunderstood because he said that he did feel sexual towards me and I KNEW it...but I didn't. I really thought he meant he wasn't wanting sex with me either, but I guess I didn't take it the way he meant it?

I do feel guilty, but maybe that is appropriate guilt? I brought up an issue about a guy I am sexually attracted to to a guy who is sexually attracted to me, and whom I am not sexually attracted to...and not receiving any sort of affection or touch.

I was telling him about how I wanted this other guy to touch me, so I can see how that would have upset him and how I wasn't considerate enough of his feelings, but it wasn't intentional...I thought we were clear about not wanting sex. I was wrong it would appear.

I think there were assumptions made on both sides.

It was after this that he started up with the stuff about me being violent towards him.

Honestly, have we become that sensitive these days that I can't even gently push a friend whilst we are laughing without being accused of being violent?

You've known him for a week. What does he expect? I think before youre committed to one another, and really just getting to know each other you can say what you want, after all thats how people get to know one another. He seems to want you to be something other than who you are.
Trust your intuition. I think inside you know.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by danas

Hmm he sounds like he was projecting his own stuff
And in any case, doesnt sound fun and light as it should be in the beginning at least.

It has become increasingly not light and fun in the last few days. It's become way too intense and strange. Too many miscommunications, too many fights...all of which he seems to indicate means that we are in a lifelong relationship as though we are married already.

He is, although there might just be too many odds working against us...

I do hope it works out for you, and this is not the case...but with life, it can go that way sometimes.

You've known him for a week. What does he expect? I think before youre committed to one another, and really just getting to know each other you can say what you want, after all thats how people get to know one another. He seems to want you to be something other than who you are.
Trust your intuition. I think inside you know.

This is what I said to him. He claims it's been a month. I met him a month ago for lunch and then we didn't see each other until two weeks ago when he came over and we swapped massages. We met up again last friday for another swap and ended up spending the weekend together, on a bit of a drug binge...which I haven't done in ages. I think this might also be a factor here. So, all up it's been about a week, give or take a couple of days.

It's just too weird. It reminds me of all the craziness that went on when I used to take drugs in my twenties. I worked hard to move away from those sort of people, but I did also feel like just getting stoned with someone I felt very comfortable with and an incredible amount of ease with.

I still can't believe how it's all turned out.

I got the same impression that he wanted me to be something other than me, and I said so to him the other day. He said to me before that he symbolizes what a normal relationship is for me. I am not sure if that is true after what has just transpired between us?

Thankyou for all your help here danas. I really needed someone to talk to about this...it really upset me.

[elucidate]

I remembered the incidences he was referring to just before.

I cannot believe he has raised these events as evidence of me being violent towards him.

The "pinching" he is talking about is referring to when I was giving him a massage the other day at his place, and I very lightly took both his earlobes in my index and thumb and pinched them...for the pleasure this brings. It always feels good when I do it to myself, and other people have remarked that they enjoy it as well. I find that area a pretty erogenous zone. It was supposed to feel good. Apparently that was being violent towards him...and being in denial about it!

The other incidence of slapping him occured in my room the other night when I was watching my show Buffy, and he kept trying to get my attention by being like an annoying teenage boy, interrupting deliberately so I can't hear my show. I lightly slapped him on the chest whilst saying in my whingy voice I reserve for friends..."stop it...I'm trying to watch the show"...and he was smiling wryly like a little kid who achieved his aim to annoy me. He's in his late 50's?

So for this I get accused of violence towards him!

The other things I can't remember...though he said I held his throat up against the door, which I have no memory of, and he said he was scared and spooked...though he didn't say anything at the time. The incidences I can remember were really just being playful with him, but he has taken this too far. If I did the other things he said, I did not do them with any real malicious intentions...yet somehow he has managed to twist it into this craziness.

I told him he was the unhealthy one...for me, and to stay away from me.

It's too much.

[garentee]

Even if time passes and you feel you want to spend time with him, do not..It will go nowhere good...

[AllTogetherNow]

yes elucidate, i hear you.

however i think it has NOTHING to do with "odds". that implies some nebulous thing outside of my own responsibility or control. to me it's a practical matter of getting to know someone, interacting with them and observing how they think, what they do, how they react to things, not just 'me' but to all external stimuli; and making my own choices about how best to proceed, based on my direct experience with them.

and when someone immediately jumps to judging, and/or consistently misinterprets my intentions, to me that 'means' they're not really interested in learning about who i really am -- they're just seeing me through their own filters and passing judgement based on their own stuff (not based upon what i'm actually doing). that's a red flag for me.

now if it's someone i already know well, if we really care for each other, and if they're willing to examine that and look more closely, i might be wiling to continue. but when it's someone i barely know and they're already judgy and accusatory, that's an indication to me that they have deeper issues than i'm willing to take on. i just woulndn't want to go any further in that direction.

if i had been in your shoes here, i would likely have made the same choice.

[C33]

This man has serious issues.

Thankfully for you, he was able to reveal them before you even had sex with him...Given how he interprets physical interaction he had with you that you thought was playful, I don't think you missed out much and I even think you have just avoided sex with a psycho.

You are doing the right thing by keeping away from him, this guy sounds extremely emotionally unhealthy.

Does he know where you live or work?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by C33

This man has serious issues.

Thankfully for you, he was able to reveal them before you even had sex with him...Given how he interprets physical interaction he had with you that you thought was playful, I don't think you missed out much and I even think you have just avoided sex with a psycho.

You are doing the right thing by keeping away from him, this guy sounds extremely emotionally unhealthy.

Does he know where you live or work?

No. I just moved house today. AND I bought a new mobile phone today, with a new number, so he cannot contact me.

He does know the name of my workplace, and possibly the address by now, and I have thought about what I would do if he showed up there. I told my boss about it today and will speak to him about what to do if he does show up because I don't want to give him a massage.

He has said he will stay away from me, as I asked. I returned his phone today (he lent me a spare phone as I lost mine the other day, but have bought one tonight.) So there are no more ties there...just weirdness.

Thankyou everyone for all your support. It's really helped me cope with this craziness. I really appreciate it.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by AllTogetherNow

yes elucidate, i hear you.

however i think it has NOTHING to do with "odds". that implies some nebulous thing outside of my own responsibility or control. to me it's a practical matter of getting to know someone, interacting with them and observing how they think, what they do, how they react to things, not just 'me' but to all external stimuli; and making my own choices about how best to proceed, based on my direct experience with them.

and when someone immediately jumps to judging, and/or consistently misinterprets my intentions, to me that 'means' they're not really interested in learning about who i really am -- they're just seeing me through their own filters and passing judgement based on their own stuff (not based upon what i'm actually doing). that's a red flag for me.

now if it's someone i already know well, if we really care for each other, and if they're willing to examine that and look more closely, i might be wiling to continue. but when it's someone i barely know and they're already judgy and accusatory, that's an indication to me that they have deeper issues than i'm willing to take on. i just woulndn't want to go any further in that direction.

if i had been in your shoes here, i would likely have made the same choice.

It's confusing. As I said before, it's like we have known each other for years...but we really haven't. It's like he was acting as though the feeling of having known each other for years, was the actual case and he was speaking to me as though we were married, and that close...but even though I did feel a very strong connection to him, and it felt very good at the time...my body was not responding in the way that would indicate someone who felt comfortable enough to get close to him...even though I did feel comfortable with him...unusually so.

It's just so upsetting still. I am home from work and have had to sort out moving house, but now that I am here, and reading your responses and helpful input, it has caused those feelings to emerge again...and it's really baffling, upsetting, scary and just plain strange.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by C33

This man has serious issues.

Thankfully for you, he was able to reveal them before you even had sex with him...Given how he interprets physical interaction he had with you that you thought was playful, I don't think you missed out much and I even think you have just avoided sex with a psycho.

Yes, I seem to be lucky that way. The last few guys I have had a connection with have revealed themselves and their issues very early on in the relationship...so I am grateful for that. It saves a lot of time and even more heartache and confusion.

I just can't believe he thought that what I did was being violent! I knew he was in a fragile place...but that's just ridiculous.

I agree though, he has serious emotional issues. I don't feel malice towards him, and I don't feel any desire to be around him again...but I'm sure I will run into him again. He is friends with a good friend of mine...and melbourne is a small place, despite being a fairly big city.

[GaryMichaels]

I’m sorry to hear things didn’t work elucidate. Hopefully you will find a guy one day and he will live up to all of your expectations. Just don’t give up hope because for all you know he might be just around the corner.

Originally Posted by elucidate

It sounds pretty full on. I'm reminded of "American Beauty" the movie.

Trust me when I say it was worse. At least in that movie it was fantasy in the bloke's head and when he finally had her alone he couldn't do it. With Hailey's father and Teresa they broke all the rules and I remember Hailey nearly throwing up some days when she saw them kissing each other.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

I’m sorry to hear things didn’t work elucidate. Hopefully you will find a guy one day and he will live up to all of your expectations. Just don’t give up hope because for all you know he might be just around the corner.

Thankyou for the encouragement.

Trust me when I say it was worse. At least in that movie it was fantasy in the bloke's head and when he finally had her alone he couldn't do it. With Hailey's father and Teresa they broke all the rules and I remember Hailey nearly throwing up some days when she saw them kissing each other.

The thought of my dad making it with a woman in her early twenties makes me want to upchuck as well. That must have been really rough for Hailey.

I guess it's silly since I don't have a problem with people who aren't family getting together even with wide age gaps...but with your parents, it's a little harder to swallow for some reason. I couldn't even think about my mother and father having sex...let alone him having sex with a woman half his age.

[elucidate]

I'm so grateful to have people I can go to for support during times like these, on line and off.

I just got off the phone with a good female friend of mine and was able to talk about it and process a bit more, so I feel much better. It's still confusing, and I don't really know what was going on for this person to make him resort to the things he said to me.

I'm assuming he felt jealous when I mentioned about the guy I was attracted to, but it's not like we were betrothed, or even committed, so his nastiness seems just inappropriate.

It seems that he had very strong feelings towards me, and I guess I bruised his ego! I did like him a lot and the feeling between us was so wonderful...I still am very spun out at how it has all turned in such a small amount of time, but I guess it's for the best. I admit I may not have been as good with being aware of what messages I was sending, but I have had male friends sleep with me in my bed and not had to clarify that it was just in a 'friend' context.

I'm responsable for being careless in this way, though it just felt right at the time and I didn't consider the repercussions. So, in that sense it has been a good learning experience. There is still a lot to process, and I don't really want to speak to him again to resolve it, so I may just vent in this thread for a while until I can piece things together a bit more, as much as possible without letting it over take my mind, since there is no real point as we are not friends anymore. For my own peace of mind though...it's best that I can process it.

My friend said she doesn't really know him that well either (this was the friend I mentioned in an earlier post who was also friends with him) so she was not able to provide any insight about him, but I think he was having a manic episode or something. Her friend, who does know him quite well said that he can be very odd.

I'm just so glad this happened now, instead of getting further involved with him. I feel more calm and have released some bad feelings connected to these recent events.

[elucidate]

I think I may have been a little rusty when it comes to knowing how to be around a man again!

It's been about a year since I have been with a guy or even dated anyone else. I had some traumatic stuff happen with two men last year, and I think it affected me a lot. I have been a bit of a recluse since, and this may have been a contributing factor to the way I behaved this last week with this person.

If I can't understand him, I can at least make an effort to understand myself in all this.

There are several factors that were at work here:

* Meeting him correlated with starting my new job as a sensual masseuse, and I have been learning to deal with strangers trying to grab me at work...so it's possible that I was having trouble allowing a man, in a non-work related context touch me and be able to cuddle him?

*My past experiences with two males, that I mentioned above, and just the fact that I haven't had anyone to cuddle in so long that I've actually become so used to being on my own. Suddenly having someone who wants to be really affectionate with me...it was a bit hard to adapt to. I'm not sure if that makes sense to any of you out there, but I think this was a factor for me.

Possible father issues? This could be a BIG factor here. I don't get along with my father at all. I have not spoken to him since April and have basically cut him out of my life. This person is a bit younger than my father, but still in the same age bracket.

My father is not a very affectionate person...never has been. He never felt comfortable touching or hugging us as kids. He always looked slightly disgusted when we would try and kiss him on the face, certainly we weren't allowed near his mouth. I recognize that as his issues NOW, but as a child I always found it very weird, and kind of took it personally.

He started trying to hug me about 10 years ago after not ever doing it for most of my life, he suddenly started to, and I remember rejecting HIM when he did. I felt like it was too late to start trying to be that way with me after not giving me any affection for all the years before that. It felt right at the time for me to reject him, even if it sounds mean...that's how I felt at the time. It seems to be similar to how I behaved with this man, so I'm wondering if it is a factor here? Something to raise with my counselor on friday anyway.

Is it possible that I have turned into my father?

I was always a very affectionate person, with people I felt comfortable with, as I did with this person...so it's strange to me that I would reject his efforts at being affectionate to me, and I am having trouble solidifying in my own mind whether it was me, or whether it was normal to not totally feel comfortable being overly affectionate with someone I hardly knew, even if it felt like we had known each other for ages, and felt very comfortable with each other?

Still confused, but I think at least I can outlay the factors involved in one part of this conflict.

[AllTogetherNow]

whether it was me, or whether it was normal to not totally feel comfortable being overly affectionate with someone I hardly knew, even if it felt like we had known each other for ages, and felt very comfortable with each other?

i don't think that's an 'either-or' -- imho both of those things, and myriad other dynamics, were all going on at the same time.

even though we do attempt to separate things out to examine them for better understanding, imho it's not always as cut-and-dried as that .... i liken these things to a bowl of spaghetti - many individual strands of 'stuff' going on all at the same time, and impossible to identify exactly which individual strand was at play at any given moment, and all of them always part of the mix.

and FWIW i think it is perfectly normal to not wish to be overly affectionate with someone you/I hardly know. in fact, i think the opposite scenario occurs far too often - because ppl want closeness, they get too wrapped up too fast without letting it develop. it feels good at first, but no matter how immediately comfortable we feel with someone, imho it's inauthentic to 'act' like an old married couple when in fact, that's not so, and we don't know as much about the person as a spouse would. (my friend has a slang phrase for this, they call it "playing dollyhouse").

so i think it's actually healthy and normal to not be overly affectionate if it doesn't feel right. You can build a beautiful mansion, but if the foundation is not solid, the house won't stand.

same with wondering about what messages you were sending out, and the example of sleeping with other friends who just 'get it', and never got any weird messages from you about it. imho that is an indication that it's not totally about you sending strange/mixed/incorrect messages. yes, of course we want to be responsible for our actions, and it's good and useful for our own integrity, to acknowledge our own responsibility in the matter.

but even within that context, don't forget that no matter WHAT messages you send - good, bad, right, wrong, whatever you call it -- how it lands at the other end is also a function of their filters, perceptions and beliefs. so even if you were pristine in sending absolutely clear & direct messages, there's a possibility it had little to do with you, because the other person's interpretations play as much a part in the situation, as what you're sending out.

it sounds to me like you've processed it out as far as you can, and imho no matter how much you think on it, or talk to his friends, etc, you won't get any insight as to 'why' he is the way he is - i mean, lawdy, look how long it takes each of us to know why WE are the way WE are, ourselves! lol. and anyway, asking 'why' is like a mouse running a maze with no cheese at the end.... there's no reward. knowing "why" won't make much difference in the results or outcome of your interaction.

so i'd invite you to let yourself off the hook. whether your actions were 'right' or 'wrong', (for lack of better non-judgy words), appropriate or not - you can think on it forever, but there's no way to know with 100% certainty 'whose' stuff contributed to what; at some point one must declare it complete or you'll just make yourself crazy trying to figure out something that cannot be figured out. You've examined your own responsibility in the matter, made a choice, communicated it clearly, and taken action to move forward. that's really all you can do. now you can let it go, and look to the future.

[Lauxa]

I think he will probably leave you alone, but let us know what happens.

I don't think there is anything weird or wrong about you not wanting to cuddle with him. It seems like a natural reaction considering his sexual attraction towards you and your ambivalence towards him.

He sounds like a manipulative person, making you feel very special and loved one moment and then becoming hypercritical when he doesn't get his way.

[awdye]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It's confusing. As I said before, it's like we have known each other for years...but we really haven't. It's like he was acting as though the feeling of having known each other for years, was the actual case and he was speaking to me as though we were married, and that close...but even though I did feel a very strong connection to him, and it felt very good at the time...my body was not responding in the way that would indicate someone who felt comfortable enough to get close to him...even though I did feel comfortable with him...unusually so.

It's just so upsetting still. I am home from work and have had to sort out moving house, but now that I am here, and reading your responses and helpful input, it has caused those feelings to emerge again...and it's really baffling, upsetting, scary and just plain strange.

When I read this, the thought occurs that you are re-experiencing some old patterns that this man fills the role of very well. Like putting on an old shoe. Fits nicely, comfortable, then the cold water seeps through the sole. Confusion comes when wondering why we hang on to the old shoes. Maybe thinking they should feel better than they do when it rains.

In a more recent post, you ask if it might be "daddy issues". That thought also crossed my mind.

Considering the amount of upset you're experiencing over an acquaintance, I think it's some old stuff resurfacing.

I'm no counselor. Just gut impressions I got. FWIW.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by AllTogetherNow

and FWIW i think it is perfectly normal to not wish to be overly affectionate with someone you/I hardly know. in fact, i think the opposite scenario occurs far too often - because ppl want closeness, they get too wrapped up too fast without letting it develop. it feels good at first, but no matter how immediately comfortable we feel with someone, imho it's inauthentic to 'act' like an old married couple when in fact, that's not so, and we don't know as much about the person as a spouse would. (my friend has a slang phrase for this, they call it "playing dollyhouse").

This was what I learned in my twenties after so many instances of impulsiveness with men and relationships. I would jump in too fast and then wake up one day and go "Uh, who are you...we have nothing in common". I concluded that my mother was right all along (about this anyway)...building a solid foundation with someone by waiting before having sex, and building up that tension is the better way to go (for me), so it wasn't just about me having something wrong with me, it was also about him being too fast to want to get close to me, which caused me to pull away. That makes more sense.

so i think it's actually healthy and normal to not be overly affectionate if it doesn't feel right. You can build a beautiful mansion, but if the foundation is not solid, the house won't stand.

Very re-assuring. Amazing how I can go from being "Unaffectionate" to Wise in 0.5 seconds

same with wondering about what messages you were sending out, and the example of sleeping with other friends who just 'get it', and never got any weird messages from you about it. imho that is an indication that it's not totally about you sending strange/mixed/incorrect messages. yes, of course we want to be responsible for our actions, and it's good and useful for our own integrity, to acknowledge our own responsibility in the matter.

Well, this is true. It never needed to be spoken with others, so why can't a grown man twice their age also not get it?

but even within that context, don't forget that no matter WHAT messages you send - good, bad, right, wrong, whatever you call it -- how it lands at the other end is also a function of their filters, perceptions and beliefs. so even if you were pristine in sending absolutely clear & direct messages, there's a possibility it had little to do with you, because the other person's interpretations play as much a part in the situation, as what you're sending out.

Yes, the example of a woman wearing a short skirt out to a bar, and a rapist deciding that means she wants to be raped comes to mind here...though that is an extreme case of distorted perceptions on the guys part. Now that I know this person was having distorted perceptions about my actions that really were just light and playful, and who I would only reserve for people I felt close enough to and that they would get me...it makes sense that he would have had distorted perceptions about other stuff as well.

There was an early indication the day he expressed his frustration, before all this other weirdness unfolded...where he mentioned that he was feeling a bit manic, which I took note of, but didn't really get in it's entirety what it could mean. I think he suffers from Bipolar disorder? Everything about his behavior last week now seems like a classic case of mania. I'm not a psychologist though.

it sounds to me like you've processed it out as far as you can, and imho no matter how much you think on it, or talk to his friends, etc, you won't get any insight as to 'why' he is the way he is - i mean, lawdy, look how long it takes each of us to know why WE are the way WE are, ourselves! lol. and anyway, asking 'why' is like a mouse running a maze with no cheese at the end.... there's no reward. knowing "why" won't make much difference in the results or outcome of your interaction.

I agree. I just woke up and I feel really great. I think I got the last of it out of my system last night talking to a close girlfriend, and I don't feel like there is much more I can process. I've gathered enough to get my lesson from this...the rest I can leave unresolved. It's not that important now that he is gone from my life.

so i'd invite you to let yourself off the hook. whether your actions were 'right' or 'wrong', (for lack of better non-judgy words), appropriate or not - you can think on it forever, but there's no way to know with 100% certainty 'whose' stuff contributed to what; at some point one must declare it complete or you'll just make yourself crazy trying to figure out something that cannot be figured out. You've examined your own responsibility in the matter, made a choice, communicated it clearly, and taken action to move forward. that's really all you can do. now you can let it go, and look to the future.

Yes, I agree with you here. I think I will accept your invitation here and let myself off the hook. We are two people who were in two very different places in our lives, and those didn't mesh very well, so there is no point in dwelling on it any further.

Thankyou again, for your generous listening. You've been immensely helpful to me during this craziness. I really do appreciate it. That goes for everyone who has participated in this thread.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I think he will probably leave you alone, but let us know what happens.

I don't think there is anything weird or wrong about you not wanting to cuddle with him. It seems like a natural reaction considering his sexual attraction towards you and your ambivalence towards him.

He sounds like a manipulative person, making you feel very special and loved one moment and then becoming hypercritical when he doesn't get his way.

Yes, I'm starting to wonder if any of it was real at all, or if he is just very good at creating a "connection" that feels like it's a Great and intriguing adventure that most people never get to experience. Some people are devils and know how to create that feeling in a person.

I don't know if that was the case here, but that feeling is gone. It felt so wonderful at the time and I really thought I'd met someone who cared for me and who made me feel like my body was sacred, that I was beautiful when I was around him, and who told me I was special (which did cause my antennae to pop up suspiciously)

His nastiness at not getting his way is proof that he is a very insecure individual, and in that way it may have been a bit of daddy issues after all as my father is also like this...extremely insecure and nasty at times.

I have experienced rejection from men I really wanted, and had to face that they were in love with someone else, and I didn't turn into a jerk about it (well, maybe initially I did). That's life. Not everyone is going to want you, and that isn't their fault.

Thankyou Lauxa for all your help here.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by awdye

When I read this, the thought occurs that you are re-experiencing some old patterns that this man fills the role of very well. Like putting on an old shoe. Fits nicely, comfortable, then the cold water seeps through the sole. Confusion comes when wondering why we hang on to the old shoes. Maybe thinking they should feel better than they do when it rains.

I guess it's possible, although it felt at the time that the upset and confusion came more from the actual event and being accused by him of doing things that I did actually do but not in the violent way he made out that I did.

Perhaps I over-reacted at the time, though it was midnight and I had had a long and tiring day of working, and was about to go to bed when he dropped that on me. It was the same when he expressed his frustration the first time...bad timing. I just wanted to go to work and I was in a different place to him and didn't really want to stop and shift gears to hear him.

At the moment I can't really think of what old patterns they might be, and I'm not going to over analyze that too much..but thankyou for your input.

In a more recent post, you ask if it might be "daddy issues". That thought also crossed my mind.

Considering the amount of upset you're experiencing over an acquaintance, I think it's some old stuff resurfacing.

I'm no counselor. Just gut impressions I got. FWIW.

I think if it hadn't felt like we had known each other for years, it might have been easier to remember that we were just acquaintances. It felt like we were close friends, which doesn't make sense logically I know, but on an emotional level, that's how it felt, so it went against the reality...which is what caused confusion when he threw this stuff at me I think.

I will speak about it with my counselor on friday though and see what else may or may not surface? I don't want to go digging too deep looking for things that may or may not be there.

[awdye]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I think if it hadn't felt like we had known each other for years, it might have been easier to remember that we were just acquaintances. It felt like we were close friends, which doesn't make sense logically I know, but on an emotional level, that's how it felt, so it went against the reality...which is what caused confusion when he threw this stuff at me I think.

I believe our subconcious attracts us to familiar relationships. Our emotions don't understand time. It makes sense to me that it felt like an old friend.

You mentioned he acted like your dad when things weren't going his way. I suspect there were other similarities. Maybe not manifest in a noticable way initially.

Patterns...it's what we do until something inside changes and we no longer need the pattern.

I'm glad to hear you're safely away and that nothing more than some harsh words were exchanged.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by awdye

I believe our subconcious attracts us to familiar relationships. Our emotions don't understand time. It makes sense to me that it felt like an old friend.

You mentioned he acted like your dad when things weren't going his way. I suspect there were other similarities. Maybe not manifest in a noticable way initially.

Patterns...it's what we do until something inside changes and we no longer need the pattern.

I'm glad to hear you're safely away and that nothing more than some harsh words were exchanged.

Thankyou for your caring words.

Yes, I also believe in patterns that surface. I am aware of the pattern of behavior that I attract due to the people I grew up around, and am wanting so much for that pattern to finally be broken forever.

I'm aware that we all are capable of being nasty, and that 'nasty' is an aspect of being human that is unsavory but nonetheless, there, and I have done shadow work on this aspect years ago.

With my father, he will be nice to me for a while and do nice things for me, like take me overseas with him...and then, in his head, he thinks that means it's ok to be nasty, not even at times when he doesn't get his way, though he does revert to that when I challenge him or act defiant in some way.

He is nice to me as long as he is getting his needs met, which is usually when he needs someone to dump all his complaints on who will listen, and someone who will give him compassion...though he has shown me NONE when I really needed it.

He has taught my brothers the same mentality, and they also inflict this inconsistent behavior on me...as do many of the men I have attracted in my life in the past.

I am working hard to make sure I overcome this pattern in me, as I want there to be consistency in my life, that is, if someone is going to be nice to me, I want that to be a consistent thing...not something they feel they can stop doing once they have 'won' back my trust.

I'm think that it is getting closer and closer to breaking that pattern all together...I hope so. I've had enough of it...I was over it a LONG time ago.

[AllTogetherNow]

* clap * clap*
bravo elucidate, on your (instant) wisdom.

you're most welcome. and thank you as well, for giving an opportunity for others to contribute to you.

i'm so enjoying this forum, out in the real world i'm too much for most people, lol. even my family.... they love me, but their eyes glaze over when i speak about things in the way that i do.

getting to share my thoughts here and have them be useful, and 'get got', is lovely.