Men and Commitment

[Reneee]

What would be some reasons why a man would refuse to commit to a woman, that he supposedly says he cares for and loves? And why would he continue to sleep with this woman for over two years, have a child by this woman, and continue to emotionally string her along? Nothing personal, just curious why "some" men could be so heartless, manipulative, and apathetic.

[James81]

What do you mean by "refuse to commit" to a woman?

You must have a completely different definition of it than I do, because he has continued to sleep with you for TWO YEARS and HAS A CHILD WITH YOU. I'd call that a pretty HUGE commitment.

What part of commitment are you not getting?

[SlicK]

Fear of losing freedom. They don't know how to commit without giving up freedom.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by SlicK

Fear of losing freedom. They don't know how to commit without giving up freedom.

Yeah, I guess its common sense. The better questioned would have been, why would a woman continue to sleep with a man refusing to commit.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by James81

What do you mean by "refuse to commit" to a woman?

You must have a completely different definition of it than I do, because he has continued to sleep with you for TWO YEARS and HAS A CHILD WITH YOU. I'd call that a pretty HUGE commitment.

What part of commitment are you not getting?

What I mean by commitment is marriage or a monogamous relationship. If he is already committed thus far, why not make it official and exclusive, thats what I don't understand.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Reneee

What I mean by commitment is marriage or a monogamous relationship. If he is already committed thus far, why not make it official an exclusive, thats what I don't understand.

In a world where 50% of all marriages end in divorce, I do not consider marriage to be a commitment.

As for a monogamous relationship, do you not already have that with him?

[Reneee]

I should have probably added, he does not take her out or even call her other than to watch their son or to have sex or complain about his problems. Why would any woman allow this type of treatment?

[blackwater]

two options:

1) she has self-esteem problems and dependency-issues. she needs to work on herself to finally be free.

2) evolutionary: she isn't that much of a looker / exicting personality. it is not realistic that she can get any better. so she'd rather hold on to a man who is a bit above her league *and* treats her like dirt, than get a man that IS in her league, but who isn't nearly as interesting / rich / intelligent

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Reneee

What I mean by commitment is marriage or a monogamous relationship. If he is already committed thus far, why not make it official an exclusive, thats what I don't understand.

How can Love really be made "official"? As long as two people truly love each other, as far as I'm concerned, it's "official".

"Exclusive" used to go along with Love, but I guess since the advent of polyamorous relationships, that has changed. Guess that would depend on compatability--is he polyamorous?

"If he's already committed thus far," then what's the problem? How do you expect "mak[ing] it official and exclusive" is going to change that?

[blackwater]

also it is evolutionarily rational for a man to keep a low-grade women that he doesntt really care for on the back burner as a safe sexual backup, even basis, while he simutaneously tries to get into bed with better / younger women

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by blackwater

two options:

1) she has self-esteem problems and dependency-issues. she needs to work on herself to finally be free.

2) evolutionary: she isn't that much of a looker / exicting personality. it is not realistic that she can get any better. so she'd rather hold on to a man who is a bit above her league *and* treats her like dirt, than get a man that IS in her league, but who isn't nearly as interesting / rich / intelligent

I get where you are coming from Blackwater, but on the contrary, not just in my opinion, but every one elses too; she is a beauty. She has a lot of men hitting on her daily. He even tells her all the time she is pretty. She just turned twenty eight and is in graduate school, financially they both are on the same level. He is a little more established in his career and finished several degree programs, but other than that he is not superior to her. He certainly is far from rich. I guess it could be her self-esteem, she is very shy, so may be he plays on that. I just don't understand, all kinds of men and women hit on her daily. Why would she wait for a man to commit whom obviously does not care about her.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by Beingist

How can Love really be made "official"? As long as two people truly love each other, as far as I'm concerned, it's "official".

"Exclusive" used to go along with Love, but I guess since the advent of polyamorous relationships, that has changed. Guess that would depend on compatability--is he polyamorous?

"If he's already committed thus far," then what's the problem? How do you expect "mak[ing] it official and exclusive" is going to change that?

No, he is not a polyamorous. He has been married before and said it was the worst experience and that he never wants to get married again. He says women are too emotional and he cannot take all the emotions that come with a relationship. But he continues to express his love for her from a distant, stringing her along like a puppet. As soon as she tries to move on, he wants to know why. In my book he is a narcissistic moron and she needs to move on before she is in her forties still not married, being strung a long and all the men that hit on her now, will be no longer.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Reneee

What would be some reasons why a man would refuse to commit to a woman, that he supposedly says he cares for and loves? And why would he continue to sleep with this woman for over two years, have a child by this woman, and continue to emotionally string her along? Nothing personal, just curious why "some" men could be so heartless, manipulative, and apathetic.

If the woman in question is YOU, I think your best bet in getting understanding in the situation is to first let go of your point of view that he is heartless, manipulative, apathetic, and stringing you along, and then, with an open mind and an open heart, considering that he has positive purpose for making the choices that he does, and open up communication with him and let him know directly what it is you'd like, while honoring him by giving him the freedom to make his own choices.

If the woman in question is NOT YOU, I think your best bet is to shift your focus to your own relationships and taking on responsibility to make them work really well, including taking a look at what has you seeing men as heartless, manipulative, and apathetic. You're never going to have full understanding of what's going on inside a relationship from the outside, but there's a lot of learning and insight and growth available by examining your own relationships, including the one you have with yourself.

[awdye]

Originally Posted by Reneee

No, he is not a polyamorous. He has been married before and said it was the worst experience and that he never wants to get married again. He says women are too emotional and he cannot take all the emotions that come with a relationships. But he continues to express his love for her from a distant, stringing her along like a puppet. As soon as she tries to move on, he wants to know why. In my book he is a narcissistic moron and she needs to move on before she is in her forties still not married, being strung a long and all the men that hit on her now, will be no longer.

It sounds like he's up front about his refusal to get married. I don't see that as "stringing along".

Apparently your friend wants this guy in her life, or she wouldn't be there.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by Angela

If the woman in question is YOU, I think your best bet in getting understanding in the situation is to first let go of your point of view that he is heartless, manipulative, apathetic, and stringing you along, and then, with an open mind and an open heart, considering that he has positive purpose for making the choices that he does, and open up communication with him and let him know directly what it is you'd like, while honoring him by giving him the freedom to make his own choices.

If the woman in question is NOT YOU, I think your best bet is to shift your focus to your own relationships and taking on responsibility to make them work really well, including taking a look at what has you seeing men as heartless, manipulative, and apathetic. You're never going to have full understanding of what's going on inside a relationship from the outside, but there's a lot of learning and insight and growth available by examining your own relationships, including the one you have with yourself.

Great advice, Angela. I agree. It is just so exhausting when she is constantly depressed and crying over this gentleman, thats all. I wish I could help her see her self-worth, but I guess I cannot.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by awdye

It sounds like he's up front about his refusal to get married. I don't see that as "stringing along".

Apparently your friend wants this guy in her life, or she wouldn't be there.

Well, yes, but then again, he does not want her to move on and when she tries he claims that he will change and marriage may be a possibility, so she decides to stick around and the change never comes. What is he so afraid of? I know only he can answer that.

I am just concerned because she is always crying over him and complaining about him to me. In my opinion, she should move on.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Reneee

Great advice, Angela. I agree. It is just so exhausting when she is constantly depressed and crying over this gentleman, thats all. I wish I could help her see her self-worth, but I guess I cannot.

That's hard, I know, when you care about someone. I've been on both sides of that, the one in the troubling relationship and the friend who has been troubled.

From my own experience, I really appreciate my friends who compassionately gave me the space to go through what I had to go through, while at the same time being straight with me about what they were seeing, and not "tolerating" endless crying and venting -- by which I mean, not compromising their own well being by listening to me complaining forever without taking steps to do what needed to be done. At one point one of my friends told me she wasn't going to listen to me whining anymore, and while it stung, it also was a great wake-up call for me to try something else. That same friend also made available to me the great invention of The Pain Hospital -- knowing it was going to hurt to let go of this guy, she said that when I was ready, she would make available my posse of women friends, delicious and self-indulgent treats, a lounger at the swimming pool, and plenty of alcohol to get me through detox. I didn't actually have to take her up on it, but it made me feel great to know it was there if I needed it.

[Angela]

p.s... I am really grateful for that agony-filled relationship now -- so much learning I got out of it! I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing now if I hadn't gone through that, and I don't think I'd be in the wonderful relationship I'm in now if I hadn't learned those lessons.

Not that I want to do it again, mind you.

[AllTogetherNow]

my view on this is -- a majority of people subscribe to this notion that the only acceptable or 'correct' manifestation of love/commitment is, ultimately 'marriage'. That outcome seems to be the only 'measurement' of whether or not someone 'is committed.'

I don't subscribe to this notion. And perhaps the man mentioned in this thread feels similarly (just a possible example, cause of course i don't 'know' the answer)

i could love someone deeply, be fully committed to the relationship being exclusive with them for the whole of my life -- and STILL not feel compelled to marry.

imho, "marriage as the only valid barometer of committment" is not 'The Truth' - it's just a societal construct which most ppl happen to believe.

But it's not how everyone feels or thinks, and it's not the ONLY valid choice. imho it's perfectly valid that the paradigm of 'being committed' does not necessarily ever manfiest in 'marriage' as the only acceptable end-goal; one can be fully committed for life - be exclusive, and have children - and feel no need for, or interest in, specifically, marriage.

as others have said here - the guy is with the gal, has a family with her, and comes home every night TO her. It's possible that to his way of thinking, that IS commitment. She however, has a different definition of 'commitment' altogether (which just so happens to agree with the mainstream majority's idea - so it gets greater validation) -- but that's not the point. The fundamental mis-agreement on what 'committment' IS, is where the true issue lies.

so to me, the thread title is not even the right question, and there's no useful answer that can arise from it. imho the more useful inquiry to explore, would be something like "what does commitment 'mean' in my relationship?" After this is explored honestly by both parties, if it turns out that there's a major imbalance in each person's notion of what it means - it's up to each of them to make their own choice about whether or not the relationship will work for them, and choose to stay or go based on greater understanding of their partner's way of being. (not on judging them to be somehow 'lacking' or 'wrong' because they don't agree with your position.)

and i wonder if it's necessary to point out that it has nothing to do with "men", or "women"..... this exact same mis-alignment occurs all the time with both genders. Framing the fundamental line of inquiry from the position of a judgement on 'men', pretty much ensures that there can never be a solution to the problem.

.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by AllTogetherNow

my view on this is -- a majority of people seem to subscribe to the notion that the only acceptable or 'correct' manifestation of love and/or commitment is, ultimately 'marriage' -- that outcome seems to be the only 'measurement' of whether or not someone 'is committed.'

i don't subscribe to this notion. And perhaps the man mentioned in this thread feels similarly (just a possible example, cause of course i don't 'know' the answer)

i could love someone deeply, be fully committed to the relationship being exclusive with them for the whole of my life -- and STILL not feel compelled to marry.

imho, "marriage as the only valid barometer of committment" is not 'The Truth' - it's just a societal construct which most ppl happen to believe.

But it's not how everyone feels or thinks, and it's not the ONLY valid choice. imho it's perfectly valid that the paradigm of 'being committed' does not necessarily ever manfiest in 'marriage' as the only acceptable end-goal; one can be fully committed for life - be exclusive, and have children - and feel no need for, or interest in, specifically, marriage.

as others have said here - the guy is with the gal, has a family with her, and comes home every night TO her - that IS commitment. She however, has a different definition of 'commitment' altogether (which just so happens to agree with the mainstream majority's idea - so it gets greater validation) -- but that's not the point. the fundamental mis-agreement on what 'committment' IS, is where the true issue lies.

so to me, the thread title is not even the right question, and there's no useful answer that can arise from it. imho the more useful inquiry to explore, would be something like "what does commitment 'mean' in my relationship?" After this is explored honestly by both parties, if it turns out that there's a major imbalance in each person's notion of what it means - it's up to each of them to make their own choice about whether or not the relationship will work for them.

and i wonder if it's necessary to point out that it has nothing to do with "men", or "women"..... this exact same mis-alignment occurs all the time with both genders -

Yes, I agree with you to a certain extent, but with this particular relationship, where the problem lies is that he has not even committed to see only her.They do not leave together, so no, he is not coming home to her every night, and he is not even calling her everyday. He seems to only be there when "he" wants a companion, but he does see his son once a week at minimum, so I can at least give him that.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by Angela

p.s... I am really grateful for that agony-filled relationship now -- so much learning I got out of it! I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing now if I hadn't gone through that, and I don't think I'd be in the wonderful relationship I'm in now if I hadn't learned those lessons.

Not that I want to do it again, mind you.

Well you are very lucky to have such good friends. I guess I should show some tough love and tell her to stop complaining or move on. Hey, may be she too, will learn a valuable lesson from this chaotic, energy depleting relationship.

[Beingist]

My very best wishes for her, Reneee

[AllTogetherNow]

oh - well - dang. ok i clearly mis-understood, my apologies.

but i still don't see it as a useful question - and i don't think the person is necessarily being 'heartless' or 'manipulative' -- those are judgements & opinions. His way of being isn't necessarily 'wrong', and it isn't a "man" thing - his way of being is just very different from girl's, and does not meet with her expectations. could be he just doesn't feel the same way as the gal does about these things; it's just not important to him to be exclusive, or whatever else is missing/lacking from the girl's point of view.

all girl can do is explore these things with him, have some honest discussion about it -- and then make her choice about whether to stay or leave based on whether she can accept his way of being, or not.

[BillyTheAdult]

Does your friend have a problem with this man?

That is, does she come to you as a friend with these issues presented as being problems? or are these problems that you personally have with him?

I ask because i don't see it mentioned anywhere that she takes issue with any of these behaviors, only that you do.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Reneee

Well you are very lucky to have such good friends. I guess I should show some tough love and tell her to stop complaining or move on. Hey, may be she too, will learn a valuable lesson from this chaotic, energy depleting relationship.

Just to be clear, my friend didn't TELL me to stop complaining or to move on. If she had, I think I probably would have resisted that hard. What I was doing, painful as it was, made sense to me to do in a (mostly unconscious) way, and telling me to do otherwise would have felt like an attack to me.

Instead, she told me it was fine if I wanted to complain or stay in the relationship, but SHE wasn't willing to listen to it anymore. Big difference, because she was setting a healthy boundary for herself without making me wrong for my choices. Her setting a healthy boundary for herself had her occurring for me like a role model -- it was something that would have been a good idea for ME to do in my relationship, but just outrightly TELLING me that wouldn't have made it through my thick skull - it would have just bounced right out with resentment.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by Angela

Just to be clear, my friend didn't TELL me to stop complaining or to move on. If she had, I think I probably would have resisted that hard. What I was doing, painful as it was, made sense to me to do in a (mostly unconscious) way, and telling me to do otherwise would have felt like an attack to me.

Instead, she told me it was fine if I wanted to complain or stay in the relationship, but SHE wasn't willing to listen to it anymore. Big difference, because she was setting a healthy boundary for herself without making me wrong for my choices. Her setting a healthy boundary for herself had her occurring for me like a role model -- it was something that would have been a good idea for ME to do in my relationship, but just outrightly TELLING me that wouldn't have made it through my thick skull - it would have just bounced right out with resentment.

You're right, thanks Angela. I will make sure to tell her in a loving manner, I no longer want to hear her complaining.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

Does your friend have a problem with this man?

That is, does she come to you as a friend with these issues presented as being problems? or are these problems that you personally have with him?

I ask because i don't see it mentioned anywhere that she takes issue with any of these behaviors, only that you do.

Yes, she comes to me at least a few times a week so unhappy and complaining about this guy. And I've seen him in action totally mistreat her by not calling for days. It is only a problem for me because it's a huge problem for her.

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by AllTogetherNow

oh - well - dang. ok i clearly mis-understood, my apologies.

but i still don't see it as a useful question - and i don't think the person is necessarily being 'heartless' or 'manipulative' -- those are judgements & opinions. His way of being isn't necessarily 'wrong', and it isn't a "man" thing - his way of being is just very different from girl's, and does not meet with her expectations. could be he just doesn't feel the same way as the gal does about these things; it's just not important to him to be exclusive, or whatever else is missing/lacking from the girl's point of view.

all girl can do is explore these things with him, have some honest discussion about it -- and then make her choice about whether to stay or leave based on whether she can accept his way of being, or not.

You're right, Alltogethernow. I guess I should not take it so personal and judge the man. I just see what she doesn't. If she continues to allow this type of treatment then she is obviously accepting what he is offering, which is a onesided love relationship. I guess that is my opinion too. And may be it is not a useful question, but it seems that majority of man have a hard time committing, not all, just a lot.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by Reneee

What would be some reasons why a man would refuse to commit to a woman, that he supposedly says he cares for and loves? And why would he continue to sleep with this woman for over two years, have a child by this woman, and continue to emotionally string her along? Nothing personal, just curious why "some" men could be so heartless, manipulative, and apathetic.

First up. I feel I have to comment on a line you said that all women say " she is pretty so I don't understand why mr x cheats or won't commit? You need to understand that just as a rapist will rape irrespective of what a woman is wearing, a cheat or a noncommitted man will do the same irrespective of how beautiful a woman is. Everything suffers from familiarity. Look at hollywood. When Eva longoria was cheated on by her husband, that was the main chant

All the men I know with stunning girlfriends have had other stunning girlfriends and have stunning women hit on them all the time. No matter how stunning a woman can seem, there is always someone more stunning. Eventually she will age. As gorgeous as demi Moore is, that didn't stop Ashton from straying. He didn't want to be with the girl he cheated, but he is a cheat so he cheated. Every single one of Halle berry boyfriends and husbands have cheated and complained she is better as a fantasy than the experience and I am talking stretching almost 20 yrs.

If a man is a cheat, a woman being stunning is not going to stop that. Once he gets over the novelty of her beauty ( and he will if her character and personality don't match)

[Reneee]

Originally Posted by Orecle

First up. I feel I have to comment on a line you said that all women say " she is pretty so I don't understand why mr x cheats or won't commit? You need to understand that just as a rapist will rape irrespective of what a woman is wearing, a cheat or a noncommitted man will do the same irrespective of how beautiful a woman is. Everything suffers from familiarity. Look at hollywood. When Eva longoria was cheated on by her husband, that was the main chant

All the men I know with stunning girlfriends have had other stunning girlfriends and have stunning women hit on them all the time. No matter how stunning a woman can seem, there is always someone more stunning. Eventually she will age. As gorgeous as demi Moore is, that didn't stop Ashton from straying. He didn't want to be with the girl he cheated, but he is a cheat so he cheated. Every single one of Halle berry boyfriends and husbands have cheated and complained she is better as a fantasy than the experience and I am talking stretching almost 20 yrs.

If a man is a cheat, a woman being stunning is not going to stop that. Once he gets over the novelty of her beauty ( and he will if her character and personality don't match)

I wholly concur. By no means am I saying because she is beautiful he won't stray. But according to him she has all the attributes he is looking for, he cares about her enough to have a child by her, and he loves her to a certain degree so he says, and he does not want her to date other people, but he will not commit. What is that about? May be she is just a fantasy for him, may be he likes the excitement of it all, but the experience is not what he thought. I honestly do not know, but he should be up front and stop engaging in relations with her if he knows he will never marry her or at least commit, especially since he knows that is what she is sticking around for.