Found Site While Contemplating Divorce, Help Please

[Thoughtful]

I'm struggling in my marriage, my second. Once again I'm having this internal argument in my head -- thinking how can I be so close to manifesting my dream, our dreams I thought, and yet at the same time contemplating divorce, contemplating yet another failed relationship.

The last time I was divorced it took me twelve years to remarry and I don't know how many self help books and classes! I'm in my early fifties and he is almost 60. We've only been married for a few years.

Two months after the marriage,I found out he was in financial ruins and on the brink of loosing his home and his business (I was under the impression that it was a successful business). I bailed him out. I don't think he ever thanked me for helping him or apologized to me for the deceit or tried to make amends for the damage to our marriage. Let's just say he's the proud, southern, stoic type.

His business is always on the brink of going under, it brings us both a lot of pride but it also brings me a lot of stress (I worry weekly if he'll make payroll). He takes home a meager paycheck, less than any of his employees -- he earns about the same as a person with a minimum wage job working full time. His earnings do not cover his expenses.

I am very well compensated, I make more than six figures a year. I've tried countless times and in many different ways to make his business more profitable or to try to interest him in additional reevenue streams. All to no avail.

He continually says he is going to retire in two years. On what? Does he plan to just stay home while I continue to work and support him? When I ask him how, he doesn't have a plan ...

Not only is there a huge difference in our incomes but he makes financial decisions without even asking my opinion -- he just does. Last year he bought a building for his business. Told me about it afterwards. Financially it was not the right decision, he did it because he wanted it. Didn't bother him that he didn't include me in the decision or that it took money away from our household monthly in order to pay the mortgage, insurances, taxes, repairs, etc.

Today, I found out he co-signed a loan for his daughter, didn't even ask me.
In fact,he lied about it and I found out. A pattern that is so typical that I find myself several times a month asking him -- point blank "Are you lying?" to which sometimes he says "yes" and sometimes he says "no"! He even says things like "Can't ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ a bullshitter" ...

I put a lot on the values of honesty, financial responsibility, trust, and respect. I'm afraid our marriage doesn't have those.

I have worked hard all my life and I am in fearful that one day he will bankrupt us. He does not look at his financial reports for the business, he does not look at our personal finances, he uses no data to make his decisions -- just does them.

I don't know what is worse now, the fear or the resentment. It's a viscious circle, we both have habits that are not loving -- I've described his. Mine are I yell and cuss at him when he pushes ones of my buttons.

Once again, my heart is telling me stay and my head is telling me run. I always say the easier way is to run but it takes a willing partner and a strong one to stay and make things better.

We are going on 4 years of marriage and I don't know how to make things better. HELP PLEASE

[SireneB]

This sounds like a situation where marriage counseling might be a good option. It sounds as though you need to have a very direct conversation about money, especially in relation to his business, as well as honesty, and having a counselor there would likely make it much more productive. Good luck with this.

[rawxstasy]

From someone who has been ruined financially by my ex - I'd say run.

You can try counseling if you want, but this pattern of him being deceitful is disturbing. Since he is already 60 I think this is going to be something that will be difficult to change.

I stayed with my second husband way too long. Was married for six years. He bankrupted us and got us into trouble with the IRS for back taxes. Now he is on the verge of being homeless. He's lost his job and hasn't been able to get another. I also tried to help him with other revenue streams and jobs. I will probably be on the hook for the back taxes. But I haven't been helping him. He thought he was on easy street when he married me. My life finallly improved when I got him out of my life. But it will take years for me to recover financially.

[ButterflyWoman]

Wow, he sounds like my father, including the compulsive lying. You can ask my father something point blank and he'll lie to your face, sometimes for no reason at all (he just feels like lying to you).

I can't tell you what to do, but if honesty, respect, and responsibility are important to you, you're not going to get them from this man. You can try counselling if you like, and maybe it will help (assuming that he'll go and actually participate; my guess is that he'll think he hasn't got a problem and only go through the motions), but if I were in your position, I'd be outta there.

I haven't spoken to my own father since 1994, and I can't say I miss him that much. There are things about him that I can appreciate, but like you, I value honesty, maturity, and responsible decision making, and he's just not capable of any of that with any consistency.

[frosting]

I haven't been in this situation. Not even close. I will say though, make sure you have your own secret bank account of just your money he can't get his grubby hands on to save you if things get worse.

+1 on marriage counseling

[awdye]

The first thing I would do is separate all the finances. Hopefully, this will stop any future bleeding.

[FelineNostalgia]

I'd maybe ask would it be worth staying with someone who isn't honest with you .Those aren't the decisions of someone who values trust honesty and respect, are the principles right for you to put your strength/energy into this relationship? Sometimes even if we are in relationships that don't serve us our pheromones create every other excuse to stay. What is your heart telling you? I'm sorry your going through this.

[aelle]

Married or not, it makes no sense for your finances to be joined if you cannot trust his financial behavior and if you have radically different attitudes to money. For him to implicate you in major financial decisions like buying real estate or co-signing on a loan without even consulting you is completely absurd.

If I were in your shoes, the steps I would consider immediately would be:
1. Sit him down and talk to him about why his financial behavior is unacceptable.
2. Change access settings on your joints accounts so that you can only make decisions with both of your consents. It will be a massive pain, but it looks like it's necessary here.
3. Get counseling, relax the rules around money over time if you feel that he is becoming more responsible and trustworthy.
4. If this is going nowhere, separate your finances and get it notarized in a marriage contract.

For what it's worth, I am in a relationship with a massive income imbalance (as in, I have a lucrative job, my partner has no job). I think that to make it work we must have thorough communication at all time and make it clear of what are our individual responsibilities as we agree on them. I will cover daily expenses, not his personal debt for example. For your husband to expect you to support his retirement as a matter of fact, without even discussing it first, is disrespectful at best, exploitative at worst.

[Thoughtful]

I have sent private messages to some of you but it's more than I can handle to email you all individually. I am crying now as I'm a bit overwhelmed but also with some relief at the responses.

Thank you all, sincerely, for taking the time to respond. You're very generous souls and are MUCH appreciated.

Status Update: So far the usual pattern is unfolding. Hubby is not talking to me and probably won't for another few more days. Also typical in the silent treatment period, I see evidence of him working with his daughter on what I call one of his short bursts to address the financial issues. The problem is no consistency, no permanent change, and I predict their attention to finances will dissipate in about a week. I have little faith in regards to this incident being the catalyst for better, more honest, communication.

For myself, I'm not sleeping much and my brain and heart are quite muddled. I'm going to try a some "writing exercises" over the next few days and see if this helps bring clarity for my immediate next steps ...
Meaning -- do I separate finances, do I separate from the marriage, or do I just divorce, or ????

I don't have much faith in individual or couple's counseling. I do think workshops and/or group counseling are effective but I've had no luck yet finding ones that I think might help. If folks know of any ... or are better at internet research ... that would be an immense help.

But again, THANKS for sharing and for reaching out. Bless you all!

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Thoughtful

Also typical in the silent treatment period, I see evidence of him working with his daughter on what I call one of his short bursts to address the financial issues. The problem is no consistency, no permanent change, and I predict their attention to finances will dissipate in about a week. I have little faith in regards to this incident being the catalyst for better, more honest, communication.

One-shot bursts of effort are good! In fact, it's what most people have, it's extremely hard to maintain changes on willpower alone in the long run. The trick is to use them to set up systems. Example: set up an automatic payment system of his business expenses, set up an automatic monthly transfer to a savings account / retirement account, change the terms of your joint accounts so that he can't abuse them, freeze credit cards if that's a problem for him...
Use this burst of motivation to set up barriers that will automatically force him to have a financially responsible behavior when the motivation dies and he doesn't care anymore. Since it takes effort to undo the barriers, he probably won't stray as long as they are in place, or at least not too much. Use the next burst of motivation to reinforce them, tweak them...

[Thoughtful]

@aelle -- Thankyou for the boost of encouragement. All those little tricks you mentioned have been in place since the first fiasco almost 4 years ago when I found out about the 90K in back taxes and debts. I went into high gear and opened 3 accounts for his business. One for fuel that his employees can access with strict limits, one for taxes, one for savings, and kept the general account for bills, etc. The majority of his bills are autopaid. Each week there are automatic transfers money to all accounts -- he just has to ensure there's money in the general account to make the transfers and bills. He doesn't do a good job at this! I have to do it.

Another short lived success was for a few months this year he was able to start contributing a small amount to an IRA each month. With my help his credit score has gone from 555 to almost 700 but mine has gone down by 50-60 points in the same time frame and our household debt has gone up. His business is staying alive mainly because of me and because I pay for most of our/his living expenses. If he were out on his own, I'm sure he would be back to not paying taxes and bills in order to cover his living and medical expenses rather than making the tough choices or getting a second job, etc

I slept last night better than I have in ages. I took the first step and removed his name from our savings account and I opened up a new savings account for him (with no money in it).

I'm going to separate our checking accounts too and I'm thinking about making him responsible for paying his own bills and some of the expenses and see how he does.

Unfortunately none of this fixes the underlying problems -- one his lying. Two, it doesn't keep him from incurring debt that legally obligates me as his spouse to pay it (loans, credit cards, taxes etc). We live in a community property state so my current understanding is that even if I was to get an attorney and file for legal separation, it wouldn't be recognized. At most this buys me a little peace of mind and gives him a chance to learn new behaviors and for us to practice new communication styles around money. I'm not sure how he'll react when I tell him about separating our finances -- in fact, it makes me feel a bit dirty because now I've stooped to doing things without communicating with him. The same thing he does and I always stress about and resent, feel betrayed, etc. If I can manage to engage him lovingly and let him know that this is the only I hope I see to saving our marriage, a last ditch attempt -- perhaps he'll understand. But I doubt it. Plus, he didn't come up with the solution so how much will he buy into it? I fear that his resentment will grow. My other underlying worry is that my separating accounts and letting go of control (a big issue for me) -- I loose all visibility and will have no insight into how he is handling things and if they are going south.

Situation gets even more complicated because my job has an implied financial responsibility clause -- if I go bankrupt or found to have excessive debt, I could "technically" loose my job. In 12 years, I've never heard of anyone loosing their job for that though ... but it gives me another angle to worry about ...

Situation is even harder because we have two residences and just last week he moved into the new house 90 miles away(close to his business) and I'm still living at the old house which is close to my work. We had plans to move to the new house and for me to look for a new job closer to his business. A decision that I have been waffling on for years. Because walking away from my benefit package, pension, salary, yada yada is not easy. Him commuting 140 miles a day daily was finally too much for our marriage as well as the time, money, and energy spent maintaining two homes. We agreed to do the "weekend marriage" thing until this house sold and I got a new job. Last week we moved pretty much all our possessions to the new house and I'm roughing it in the old house!

My panic attacks and nightmares I'm sure were brought on by the move and made me wonder if I was out of my mind to contemplate such drastic changes ... and then when I found out about the co-signing on the loan for his daughter; I snapped and fled back to the old house.

Whew, late for work but it feels good to write.

Have a good day!

[awdye]

Why would you consider moving in a direction that increases your dependency on his business? You've spent a great deal of text describing how it's barely staying solvent. And then leaving your well paid, beneficial, this is feeding the family (and keeping the business afloat) job?

From your last message, I got the impression you are treating him like a child. Doing things for him that he should probably be doing himself. He is perfectly capable of opening his own accounts, and paying his bills.

You may want to consult with an attorney about insulating yourself financially. I believe there are steps you can take to limit your exposure.

Has he ever explained to you why he lies sometimes?

[freddy]

Sorry to read you post about your husband. From a finacial point you would be better off without him. From an emotinal point only you can decide that. With the lies and mis trust I'm sure you would be better off on your own. Maybe to cut the money losses so much, you could look into selling the bussiness off or closing it. My heart goes out to you for all the pain you must be feeling. It looks as if your being used in this situation, big time. Blessing to you.

[Thoughtful]

@awdye -- thanks for the reminder on the "great deal of text" ... probably shouldn't have shared so much on the internet. It just felt good to write but online probably isn't a good place to journal in such depth.

Made another baby step tonight and opened up a new checking account just for me ...

[rawxstasy]

Originally Posted by Thoughtful

@awdye -- thanks for the reminder on the "great deal of text" ... probably shouldn't have shared so much on the internet. It just felt good to write but online probably isn't a good place to journal in such depth.

Made another baby step tonight and opened up a new checking account just for me ...

I don't think you shared too much information. And it is good to let it out. I expect that he will be very upset to learn you are seperating finances. But tell him since you are supporting the household, he doesn't have a choice.

I fear that his resentment will grow. It wouldn't matter what you did. Even if you gave him everything you had, and everything blew up and you both ended up on the street - he would blame you for that.

This "man" is not responsible or mature. He can't/won't pay his taxes or bills because he can't cover today's expenses unless you do it. So you are like his mother taking care of him.

I am afraid that even if you let go of the reigns and try to teach him to be more responsible, it's not going to work. He needs to be motivated enough to do that himself.

I would still hire a lawyer and see what can be done if anything to protect your assests. I mean seriously - if he signs up for a credit card without your knowledge and goes hog wild you are still responsible? that's scary.

It sounds like you still want to try to make things work. Both of you should go to counseling.

Last thing- why the hell did he take everything with him and leave you in an empty house? This is utter selfishness on his part.

Take this quiz Do You Know a Psychopath?

From what you described, he seems to have traits of a psychopath. Lack of responsiblity, sense of entitlement. Not trying to be mean, but when he's gotten what can from you, he will move on to mooch off the next unsuspecting woman.

[ssandra]

Have you considered maybe some outside of the box options?

one thing that I can see working for example is for you to divorce him, but keep being in a relationship with him, living separately.

that would make you not responsible for his finances, you can help him if you choose, but he would have to actually ask (because he won't have access to the money anymore) and you can decide on a case by case basis.

I do think counseling might be helpful. Not necessarily for the financial problems, but to solve the communications problems the two of you clearly have. Using the "silence treatment" is a ridiculous way for adults to behave when they are having problems with each other....

[Thoughtful]

Thanks for the quiz seeing the word psychopath scared me -- ur score is 42%. The person is lacking in maturity, but only shows marginal characteristics common in psychopaths.

[Thoughtful]

@rawxstacy -- I agree with almost everything you written me. I really think that I'm going to take all these separation steps and talk to an attorney about a postnup to see if that offers protection from debt and then probably discuss it with him. Odds are, we'll be divorcing.

Not sure who asked about the "empty house" but that wasn't his doing at all. We really do like the new house and it's area much better. I had this dream since the beginning of our marriage of moving out that way, getting a new job, life being better. He was exhausted with the commute and I justed decided it was time to "go for it". Then the nightmares and panic attacks started just a few days before the move. I thought it was just all we were trying to do and all the change. Now I think it was my body warning me that I had my head up my proverbial arse!

@ssandra -- Living in a common law state is tricky; if you cohabitate for 7 years; you're married. So, we'd have to divorce and he'd have to be on his own solo ... Not really a situation that I want to be in.

We married after only six months of dating -- silly on my part. I was pretty vulnerable as my brother had just died, I wasn't thinking clearly -- just wanted to have fun again, be loved, etc. We were dating and he was pretty amazing at the time (and unbelievably generous using money wooing me with $$$ he couldn't afford). My hubby came down with an infection that was threatening to put him in the hospital for 6 weeks. We went to Vegas and got married the day he was diagnosed; came home and he went into the hospital. Thankfully, it didn't take 6 weeks, etc.etc. If we were to divorce, I couldn't envision myself dating him now.

[Thoughtful]

@ssandra -- I so agree on the silent treatment being absurd. Usually, it bothers me unbelievably and I try to "draw him out to talk about it". This time it's giving me time to journal, think, take the baby steps to separate finances, etc. Of course, he's in another house too so ... living with the silent treatment is easy. And I don't really want to draw him out to talk about it until most of the separation work is done.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Thoughtful

@ssandra -- I so agree on the silent treatment being absurd. Usually, it bothers me unbelievably and I try to "draw him out to talk about it". This time it's giving me time to journal, think, take the baby steps to separate finances, etc. Of course, he's in another house too so ... living with the silent treatment is easy. And I don't really want to draw him out to talk about it until most of the separation work is done.

It is not your job to "draw him out to talk". However, when you are ready to touch the subject, I would start with telling him that the silent treatment isn't an option in your marriage anymore.

If he needs some time to collect his thoughts, that is ok of course. Everybody may need some hours or days to think about stuff. But in the mean time he can still be civil to you, still tell you that he loves you and other normal day to day stuff....

That is why I am suggesting a counselor or coach or someone external. Sometimes they have ways of translating what you are saying to him, so that he understands it better. And translating what he is saying so that you understand it better.

Add to that that most of the time when people are talking with an independent third party in the room, they tend to keep things more civil and it is less likely to spiral out of control.

I believe that in order for you to fix this financial mess, it all starts with communication. Both ways. For him to start hearing you and really understand you and for you to talk in a way that he can really hear you and understand you.

[James81]

Have you considered the idea that he is only with you for the money?

[rawxstasy]

I think you are taking some brave steps to take care of yourself. Congratulations!

[Thoughtful]

Of course I have in my darkest moments

@raw stacy. Thankyou

Been reading about postnuptial agreements and think that may be the way to go for now

[Thoughtful]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Have you considered maybe some outside of the box options?

one thing that I can see working for example is for you to divorce him, but keep being in a relationship with him, living separately.

that would make you not responsible for his finances, you can help him if you choose, but he would have to actually ask (because he won't have access to the money anymore) and you can decide on a case by case basis.

I do think counseling might be helpful. Not necessarily for the financial problems, but to solve the communications problems the two of you clearly have. Using the "silence treatment" is a ridiculous way for adults to behave when they are having problems with each other....