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05-10-2007, 04:37 AM
| #1 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5
 |  Outer Beauty?
Recently a new girl joined my group of friends, and it made me wonder how much our face can alter the course of our lives.... You see, my group of friends includes two girls in particular that I want to discuss. One girl's name is Vicki. She always has lots of interesting and humorous stories to tell, she can carry on a conversations with everyone, she works hard in school, and is affectionate with her friends. She is confident around everyone and has a great personality. Yet, her social circle is limited and boys don't notice her. Then there's the new girl Shannon. She's nice, but for the most part she just sits there and laughs at jokes. She can't contribute anything decent to a conversation... Despite this, her social circle is relatively large. Every week there's a new person talking to her in attempt to befriend her. Seems like Vicki should be the winner here, right? Nope. Despite everything that Vicki has, she's missing one piece. What is this one piece? Beauty. Now don't get me wrong. Vicki's not downright ugly, but she has a plain face. Shannon, on the other hand, is very attractive. Shannon can get dates, friends, and jobs with ease. She doesn't have any particular talent but she gets complimented by complete strangers. Life just comes so easy for her - she just flows through it. Her biggest problem is that Joe might not like her despite the fact that Bob, Andy, Billy, and Terry do. Now this is where some people say "I'd hate to be Shannon because obstacles are what makes life worth living." Yet if you were forced to jump into someone's body, you'd never pick Vicki's. You'd go for Shannon's. Shannon still has the ability to find challenges and work through them but with the added power of what beauty brings her. Vicki on the other hand? She'll always have trouble with obtaining dates and will always have to work harder for love and acceptance - two crucial factors in a person's happiness. Anyway, this is just a one case scenario that I just found so intriuging. Growing up, I didn't care much about my looks. Now I realize that was stupid, because I see that my social worth is lowered because I haven't been taking care of myself as much as I could have. I'm interested in hearing your guys' thoughts and experience with this. How do you think your looks affected/is affecting your life? Ex: If you're a plain looking person, do you often get overlooked despite having a great personality? What about the attractive people on this forum? It'd be interesting to hear from people who underwent major plastic surgery..  Also, do you often find yourself biased in your dealings with other people depending on how attractive they are? After observing the experience above with Vicki and Shannon, I now realize that I totally do, even with friends who are suppose to be fairly close... It makes me feel guilty and terrible. |
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05-10-2007, 05:24 AM
| #2 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Netherlands
Posts: 821
| Quote:
For me/us looks are important, very important even. But (there's always a but ) looks aren't everything, personality can go a long way. Now if a person has the looks but no personality than I don't care how beautifull she is I'll dump her, she has (to say it bluntly) entertaining value in the beginning but no lasting value. If a person has a great personality and average looks than there's potential for a lasting relationship but the odds of me meeting her decrease.If a girl has both than I hit the jackpot... To me outside appearance is just that a outside appearance, its natural to judge someone based on there outer appearance when you first meet them. After all thats the only thing you 'know' about them, here's the crutch though the longer I know somebody the more there personality starts to be important. If I know you for years now than you can bet on it that I think you have a nice personality, if I know you for a few weeks well lets say you passed the initial test.  Anyway I personally don't care as much as most people about there social status, it just doesn't bother me because I know how much I'm worth and thats all that matters to me. Now this is different for females because your brains are 'programmed' to judge and select based on social status, don't feel guilty about this. Its possible to change but I'm not sure if you should want to do that. For females social status is important for getting approval from there friends/relatives and keeping a man from running to the next beauty he see's. For males social status is important in getting females, thats it. I know I can get females, no problems there. And the funny thing is, this 'not caring' attitude actually helps increase my social status. I behave like me, I say whats on my mind while respecting the feelings of others, I do what I want and I act how I want. And you know it goes full circle, this attitude is attractive to females which increases my social status which increases my confidence which increases my attractiveness to females which increases my social status. Well you get the picture. I'm not sure how it works for females but this is a quick male perspective on things.  | |
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05-10-2007, 06:38 AM
| #3 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,629
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With severe acne from age 8-15, I used to be much less sociable. Acne medicine made me feel sick, and my skin became so sensitive that for years I didn't even want to be touched (a pat on the back could nearly produce a scream). It only really changed when I stopped caring so much about my acne and stopped trying to hide it. For a summer I walked around most everywhere without a shirt (after dropping the meds which would have made this unsafe), when before I would never let anyone but a doctor or my parents look under my shirt. As an unexpected benefit, my skin cleared up at least 90% with the tan. I went on to carry over the attitude of having little to hide in many of my interactions, and find in general that it makes life much more interesting and fulfilling in ways one might have never guessed. During the time when my acne was at its most severe, it definitely influenced how people saw me, but as it stopped mattering so much to me, it also stopped being nearly as much of an issue to others. A guy's physical appearance isn't scrutinized nearly as much as a girl's (though a bit of style can still help). How a man relates to the world is much more important. Most people are much more critical of themselves than others are, thus attractive people can easily see themselves as ugly. It's a rare blessing to be around someone that feels truely beautiful and radiates it, who is totally comfortable in his/her skin. Such a person is welcome in my life regardless of external features. Also, you mention that the plain girl is affectionate with her friends, but not the same is said of the more attractive girl. Which would you say has deeper friendships (I'm guessing the one who is seen as more plain, though this isn't always the case, as outer beauty doesn't guarantee one is shallow)? Last edited by openeyes; 05-10-2007 at 06:41 AM. |
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05-10-2007, 08:15 AM
| #4 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posts: 462
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I definitely hate the fact that women are judged solely on looks by men. I hate it even more that I am this way as well. As an intelligent 17 year old male, I have a lot of moments where I despise a girl, yet am still sexually attracted. I kind of understand what it's like for those girls though, because I am not the best looking guy myself. I know it's much more intense for girls though, because whenever guys talk about girls it's always about how they look. Everyone has problems though. I'm sure that hot girls and ugly girls have the same amount of problems, they just might be different. The ugly girl might have problems getting dates, and the hot girl might have problems with guys that are just using her for her looks. The thing about me though is that I am not super picky as far as looks go. A girl can drastically improve her looks by losing weight or getting a tan. As long as there is something to keep my hormones busy, I will become very attracted to a girl with a great personality. The other thing is that this is definitely the same for guys. It's not looks, but if you haven't noticed, a select group of guys tend to get all the girls. A statistic I stole from somewhere: "Among almost every species, all females will mate, whereas 30% to 75% of males never have sex." Believe me, it's tough being a guy too. It's just different. Erock |
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05-10-2007, 08:36 AM
| #5 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Netherlands
Posts: 821
| Quote:
We are all different, some area's in our life we can improve ourselves. Things like relationships or networking or talking skills and knowing how to behave in social settings can be improved, so can some superficial things get improved (not my best area so bear with me ) like dressing better or something. The thing is where all different, some people have a advantage by birth in one area while others in the other. Our job as humans is to advance in all area's of life and trust me you'll have success with (fe)male's if you do this.This also means that sure there are differences between the two sexes, men are more visually attracted and female more emotionally attracted. Those differences are fine, if a men's physical needs are met than he'll worry a lot about the emotional needs. If a females emotional needs are met than she'll worry about her physical needs. We are in a sense the same we just work from opposite ends, yin and yang getting together so to say. Its also logical out of a evolution viewpoint but I'm not going to get into that since I don't know enough about it... | |
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05-11-2007, 05:05 AM
| #6 (permalink) | |
| Retired Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,448
| Quote:
I totally understand this scenario...it is just a known fact that very attractive people get more attention. Of course, personality is very important (or should be!) in choosing a mate, but because the physical is the initial part of meeting/seeing a person, it would be understandable why many place great value on it. I consider myself an attractive woman and many times I consider it a burden. The annoying stares and "can I get your number?" is just frustrating and I feel like a piece of meat. I really wouldn't care if I woke up tomorrow and had a "plain face" simply because the personality matters so much more, and appearance can only do so much for an individual. Although many have called me attractive, I suffer from low self-esteem and so I value personality much more than looks. I have found that the inner beauty of an individual shines more brightly and lasts longer...and my goal is simply to attain a higher self-esteem. | |
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05-11-2007, 06:03 AM
| #7 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 538
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Many people are superficial and see the physical to be representative of the inner. This is present all over the world, in the work place, in the social arena. Guys tend to be superficial in this area especially since they tend to appreciate outer beauty greatly. But a person with insight knows that a woman's beauty resides in her soul. Women do judge men on their looks, but it is not as prevalent as it is with men. As you said, Shannon got more dates than Vicki. Why? Because many guys think that looks are important enough to judge a person's personality and character. (This of course doesn't apply to all men.)
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05-11-2007, 12:42 PM
| #8 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Croatia
Posts: 448
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Physique is something that determines if you will get mated and produce healthy offspring if you even have a luck to have one, nature is brutally similar to this.. there are animals that never get laied.. and there are animals that have too many lays.. People are different sort of animals and purely mechanical and biological goal of mating is somewhat surpassed and if the opposite partner hasn't got internal value (i.e. good mind & soul) he will be practically worthless to the other that has some internal value.. same is for the two hot partners that are practically empty inside and only conceive the world through the eyes of superficiality... And yes, working on your body does pay off! Both for your health, wealth, soul and for your sex life... |
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05-11-2007, 01:53 PM
| #9 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,090
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All interesting perspectives. Interesting timing since I wrote an article on this very thing. Have a look: Be an Interesting Person |
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05-11-2007, 02:35 PM
| #10 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 58
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Personally, I love the idea of improving my body and my looks. I have rules about it, though - it all has to be done naturally. A lot of people are so obsessed with it that they'll turn to dangerous drugs, diets, and procedures to make it all work. I just keep eating the same amount but up my exercise routine. Over the course of a previous school semester, I gained 10 pounds, and since starting up a job again and working on my physical condition I've lost about 7 of those pounds, am almost back to my original weight, and am working toward getting better tone in my muscles. But at the same time - there are many days when I don't care how I look, and some attributes that are not important to me about myself. For instance, if anyone has a problem with the fact that I don't style my hair, that's their problem. Come to think of it, if anyone has a problem about any of my features, outside of running naked and screaming at them, that's their problem. Having said all that, I work on my own body for partially the reason that I want whatever girls I'm dating to work on their bodies, as well. Health is very important to me, and I cannot truly expect other people to be healthy if I am not doing my best to be healthy myself. Once you have worked hard to get your appearance to a new high, it is downright intoxicating to get the benefits from it. |
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05-11-2007, 02:47 PM
| #11 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Toronto, Canuckland
Posts: 1,737
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Anyone here read Blink, Mean Geens and Influence? Blink is about subconscious judgements we make in fractions of seconds, Influence is about how we're influenced by six weapons of influence (Robert Cialdini) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Mean Genes is about applying evolutionary biology/psychology to everyday situations and questions. One of the influences is Liking bias. We tend to think of better looking people (male AND female, including based on symmetry, a surprising part of attraction has to do with symmetry, look up Mean Genes about it) as more sociable, as more intelligent and a whole host of other very nice things. If you read the book, you get better examples of it. Many species need a differentiator, because its a winner-take-all situation. Everyone wants the best they can get to. Like someone else mentioned, the top few males (or females, depending on the species) get the most mates. And different species do it different, for example, in peacocks, the males are the ones with the pretty feathers and that draws in the brown females. In hyenas, the females are bigger than the males (and even have a pseudo-phallus) and thus its the females doing the kinda stuff you'd expect the guys to do, ie, woo the males. For human beings, cause males are bigger than females, females have to be wooed by males, so the differentiater between women because appearance, and between males becomes things like size (taller men are more attractive, generally, and an inch of height gives you approximately 700 extra dollars a year). And females look for traits of alpha males, so htings like confidence, status (and yes, even money, or at least, symbols of it). However, women who feel more independant, especially financially are more likely to look for traits of personality and even looks rather than status versus a woman who doesn't feel financially independant So what? Well, what ti comes down to, is that we haven't evolved that much in the past hundred thousand years. We use the same machinary as we used to use back in those days because we haven't consciously decided to learn about them and change them. That's what I'm upto lately. And even I get duped. I was teaching a good looking guy a few days ago this program and I was surprised that he wasn't learning that quickly, and that's because I subconsciously rated him as smarter because he was good looking. I mean, clear skin, tall, good voice, symmetrical. My other point was that this sort of thing also exists among guys, but guys ♥♥♥♥♥ about it less. But its things like status, and height and other traits of the alpha male (ie, the question, "why do jerks get all the women?"). http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_d...are_desti.html Scott Adams (Dilbert creator) also talked about this. I'm rambling now. G'day! Last edited by RT Wolf; 05-11-2007 at 02:56 PM. |
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05-12-2007, 06:14 AM
| #12 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Australia
Posts: 1,139
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My experience/opinion? Outer beauty matters a lot in the short term. I'd expect the more attractive person to have a larger circle of acquaintances, because making an acquaintance happens relatively quickly. (Also because more attractive people tend to be more socially confident). But the longer you know a person, the more their level of beauty adjusts to match their personality. I'd expect the person with the richer personality to have deeper friendships with people. P.S. Can I have Vicki's number? Last edited by Keith; 05-12-2007 at 06:17 AM. |
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05-12-2007, 07:12 AM
| #13 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 332
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A few of my random thoughts pertaining the original post: 1) No matter how pretty you are, beauty and youth are fleeting. Lasting relationships must be built on something more. There will come a day when my wife and I are both old and wrinkly, no matter how good looking we are today. 2) Once youth and beauty are gone, Shannon may find herself in need of life skills she never had to develop. That's hard to say without knowing Shannon. 3) Men and women alike are naturally attracted to certain characteristics, including facial symmetry and body proportion. There is no question that a person with these characteristics will have more suitors, all other things being equal. 4) As we get older, our health and beauty regimine (exercise/diet/fashion) has as much (if not more) to do with our attractiveness as our biology. Time can be very cruel to a person's appearance. If Shannon lets herself go and Vicki takes great care of herself, guess who the catch will be in 10 years? 5) It's different for men than women. Men care about their appearance, but in general, society does not send the same message to men regarding appearance that it sends to females. I have met several women who felt tremendous social pressure to be pretty because they honestly believed that was all they had to offer. I've met lots of guys who spent time in the mirror, but never one who placed his entire self worth within the image that he sees there. The pressure on boys to be attractive is greater now than it's ever been, but it's still not on quite the same level. 6) I've never been a great looking guy. Average looking, I guess you could say. It never held me back. We all have hurdles to face. For some of us, it's our looks. For others, our intelligence. For others, money. Much of life boils down to hard work, determination, and willingness to overcome. Last edited by JohnPlace; 05-12-2007 at 07:23 AM. |
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05-12-2007, 11:13 PM
| #14 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 38
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I hate when I'm walking on a street and man think they can comment my looks out loud. so even when I'm dressed plain, they still compliment me, total strangers I mean, usually from their cars. I find that annoying and sometimes, when I'm about to go somewhere alone, I choose darker clothes to be less noticeable. I just can't handle the pressure because I don't like being in the center of attention. And I don't have great self-esteem, like some of the less attractive girls have, which I admire totally! But I think people who look good can't really afford to be self confident because people then mistake it for self admiration, or something like that. And it's true that I have to work less to make someone be interested in me, because they do it by default. But that developed in me some qualities I hate but I had to use, which is for example coldness. Sometimes I have to be really cold and even mean to defend myself. So if you are ugly or beautiful there are good and bad sides of that, and I really think it all depends on a person how good their life would be. |
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05-14-2007, 01:40 PM
| #15 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,090
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I had a friend once who was so attractive she had every guy after her wanting to date her. Unfortunately once they got to know her they would drop her like a hot potato. She had nothing interesting to say and was so self-centered that she was a bore. She is currently single even though she's had tons of boyfriends. | |
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05-14-2007, 05:25 PM
| #16 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2
| Shannon - looking for meaning
I sympathize with both girls. I think there are challenges on both ends, although they may not be obvious or they may not apply depending on the individuals. I'll give a little of my perspective. I am beautiful, if I clean myself up nicely, put a nice dress or shirt on, remove the pony tail, I can be drop dead - turn eyes everywhere I go. I've been mistaken for an actress, have been asked if I'd like to be an actress... so on. But I hold very little value in looks and far more value in the soul. It is extremely hard for me to find meaningful relationships. Women, hate to be in public with me especially if they are single, since the attention comes my way first. Men, look at one thing when they see me and I have a hard time getting past that with the opposite sex. For this reason, I dress down, don't put on makeup and try to get others to stop looking at my looks and start looking at the type of person I am. This helps a bit, but I think I'll always have a struggle. And I miss being sexy and enjoying my looks, they are part of me. But I'm not able to easy strike a balance between. I frequently find that people are not interested in me other than my looks, and I have been very welcome in social groups, strictly because of my looks. I even find myself as the token beauty in a group of friends, and they'd rather not hear anything from me - I'm just meant to sit there and be the pretty one. I guess if you don't care, or don't value personality much, then Shannon's looks is all she needs. But at some point, especially if Shannon has a desire to maintain long term relationships, then she may run into similar challenges as I have. I'm curious, has anyone in the group had a sharing conversation with Shannon, find out how she feels, what she thinks - about things like relationships, friendships, openness, spirituality... |
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05-15-2007, 09:52 PM
| #17 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8
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as they say it - looks are temporary. imagine that Shannon girl surviving an accident that leaves her looking way less attractive than she is now... what does she have going for her then? personality? you said she had almost nothing to contribute as far as that goes... That's why I totally agree with the rest of you - outter beauty will get you noticed (just like an appealing cover of a book), but if you've got no "juice" beyond that, you won't last long (just like the content of the book - you'll drop the book if it doesn't interest you in the first couple of pages). |
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05-16-2007, 01:11 PM
| #18 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Toronto, Canuckland
Posts: 1,737
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Nah, I can understand what you mean, I just think its funny. It reminds me of a problem Warren Buffett faced last year (my hero, second richest man in the world, greatest investor ever, etc). The problem was that he had about 45 billion dollars in cash that he didn't know what to do with. There just weren't enough good businesses to invest in. In terms of how outer beauty has affected the course people's lives, I think the Adams blog I linked to earlier illustrates what that means. For me, though, it hasn't been beauty (although I think I might be good-looking, but I don't know, never paid attention), its been intelligence. People always used to peg me as the smart geeky type (that's gone down a little lately, cause I've stopped giving off the vibe), but there were always expectations setup for that. That I should have the highest grades (not that I didn't get good grades), or that I should know the answer to every question. Other people's opinions of my intelligence has probably influenced my life in ways I can't even imagine, to bring to this point in time and space, here and now. Its kinda funny to think about how a few random gene changes have affected my life, but hey, so have other events of my life. | |
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05-23-2007, 08:29 AM
| #19 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 212
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I consider myself to be a beautiful woman, and others consider me to be so. There's a pic in my blog in the "About" section, and I think I have one here in my profile. Pros:
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05-23-2007, 08:54 AM
| #20 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Florida
Posts: 36
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my best friend is gorgeous. asthetically perfect, even.... not to say i am unattractive-- i get asked out my share of times-- but not nearly as much as her. girls outside of our circle always want to talk about my beautiful best friend and i am just kind of left to pump myself up. it can be hard. but i have recently realized something about her.... her looks make up her whole person. don't get me wrong, she is a great friend and knows how to love and care, but she's never had to rely on anything else, so she uses her beauty to ride through life, never fully becoming the emaculate person she could be.... her boyfriends always end up talking to me more, and when the attention is taken from her-- or heaven forbid we go out one night and i get hit on more-- she is visibly shaken and makes little comments like, "Well aren't you the hot commodity tonight...." here's the thing. beauty is so much more than looks. sure, looks go a long way and guys want to be with the hot girl... but i have found that as many times as i go out dressed up and get hit on, drinks bought for me, VIP at clubs...etc etc..... i get just as much-- maybe even moreso compliments when i go out with jeans and a t-shirt on... all this mainly because people sense a person who believes in his or her own beauty. call it intuition; call it whatever... shannon probably perceives herself as beautiful, so others cater to that. if you perceive yourself as beautiful, too and worth just as much as she gets and are confident in who you are-- you will attract more guys. but wait-- forget just guys.... you will attract more PEOPLE who want to be around you (and so will Vicki if she believes it, too....) Trust me-- i have a friend who isn't nearly physically as perfect as my best friend and she gets EVEN MORE attention than the beautiful one because she BELIEVES she is the most beautiful girl in the world! |
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05-29-2007, 05:35 AM
| #22 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2
| 3days to recover from acne, Eczema and Psoriasis by CSDCC chinese herbal cream. Quote:
online order: Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce | |
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05-29-2007, 06:07 AM
| #23 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: England
Posts: 165
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 - 3 miles running fast pace a day suffices for me, my skin is absolutely blemish free. But it was you average teenage skin before I started. So. If you have acne do some frigin exercise you lazy .... | |
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05-30-2007, 05:01 PM
| #24 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 296
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Experience comes with time and practice, I guess To me, looks are REALLY important. I won't date anyone lower than an 8 on my scale (and that's HARD to get, there are exceptions though, if they fall into the 'cute' category ^_^). But even though I find looks important, if the girl has a bitchy attitude all of the time, its bye-bye for me. That's just how we men work. Or, at least 99% of the men anyway | |
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05-30-2007, 05:07 PM
| #25 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,090
| Quote:
Also I would presume you are quite a bit above average in looks too and have a lot to offer, correct? | |
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05-30-2007, 05:40 PM
| #26 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 296
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And no, I'm not above average in looks, but why should that matter? Why should I lower my standards cause I'm not so good-looking? Girls don't go at all (well, some might) for looks. My personality is okay. Thanks to David DeAngelo ^_^ | |
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05-30-2007, 08:04 PM
| #27 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,090
| Quote:
If not, and you still get what you want - more power to you! | |
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05-30-2007, 08:29 PM
| #28 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 391
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I am a very good looking male and I get a lot of looks from girls. Right now I think there are 2-3 girls that wants to get with me (come to think of it.... I haven't bothered to talk to them in a long time). But other than that it doesn't help me much, at least not academically.
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