My Fiancée is afraid of sex?

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

Sometimes I wonder if I am asexual. I would be lying if I said I haven’t thought about having sex with Hailey and what it would be like to do it but I don’t think I have a high sex drive. I am not going crazy over not having sex like some of my friends think I should be, I don’t have the urge to masturbate frequently and I don’t watch porn. In fact, porn grosses me out

My husband was basically happily celibate when we met. He wasn't asexual, though he or others might have wondered if he was. He just wasn't driven by his sex organs. Once we got together as a couple (and we had known each other quite some time before we were romantically involved), his sex drive woke up and, uh, without giving too many intimate details, let's just say he's most definitely not asexual.

He also doesn't really get porn, for what it's worth. He finds it ridiculous, unrealistic, and sometimes downright stupid. So you're not alone in not liking porn. Most men seem to enjoy it, but not all of them do.

The therapy session sounds encouraging, by the way. I mean, yes, lots of tears and so on, that's not pleasant, but it sounds promising. I'm really glad to hear that Hailey wants to heal. She'll feel much better when she's healed, though.

[GaryMichaels]

Thanks again Butterfly Woman.

I have been worried about that because if therapy does help Hailey get better which I am hoping it does and we do have sex it would be very disappointing if I was asexual. I don’t see myself driven by my sex organs and I am usually run on my heart. For example, if I see a beautiful woman they might interest me but I am not attracted to them until I find out more about their personality. I don't want to have sex with them just because they are beautiful like most of my male friends do.

I tend to go for emotional attraction over physical attraction. The latter can be very misleading and that was something I quickly realised after my first girlfriend passed away. I would meet women that looked like her but were nothing like her and I didn’t even ask them out because of that. I decided the best way to find another girlfriend was to become their friend so I could learn more about them first and I ended up not asking any of them out because there were things about them I didn’t like.

I even turned down two very attractive women who asked me out because I didn’t see myself having anything in common with them. My friends thought I was absolutely crazy but when I think about it all these years later I still believe I did the right thing. One of them I found annoying while the other I thought was boring. I need a woman that is fun, smart and as quirky as me or it isn’t going to work.

I fell in love with Hailey in less than a day and it wasn’t because she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen, it was because we connected. She made me smile and laugh for the first time since my old girlfriend has passed away and we talked to each other for hours about everything. I never felt comfortable discussing my old girlfriend with anybody but with Hailey I did. She was just really kind to me and even though she had never lost anybody she understood how I felt.

Hailey thinks porn is degrading to woman and encourages rape. Her Uncle has a large porn collection and she often gets into heated arguments with him about it. She thinks any woman who is willing to have sex in front of a camera for money is a slut and no different than a prostitute. She also doesn’t understand why they do it when she made more money than quite a few of them modelling. I never got the appeal of porn it seems like something a lot of desperate blokes would watch that can’t get girlfriends but that’s just my opinion. I don’t need to look at other women either because I am engaged.

[RonSouther]

Hey Gary,

One day at a time....you guys got it...I'm guessing one day she will let go of her wound and by nature the two of you will enjoy a wonderful lovemaking. I'm thinking that in that moment she will realize such beauty with you now and stop remembering the horror of the past. That her heart will scream "yes!!" to you and in that joy, her mind won't be able to deny her heart anymore. I know she wants to but her mind is too powerful.

Live and let live....you got it all! Her heart can't take "no" from the mind forever!

[ssandra]

I just wanted to comment on this. I know this is her opinion and not yours, but i find it important enough to not let it slide.

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

Hailey thinks porn is degrading to woman and encourages rape. Her Uncle has a large porn collection and she often gets into heated arguments with him about it. She thinks any woman who is willing to have sex in front of a camera for money is a slut and no different than a prostitute. She also doesn’t understand why they do it when she made more money than quite a few of them modelling. I never got the appeal of porn it seems like something a lot of desperate blokes would watch that can’t get girlfriends but that’s just my opinion. I don’t need to look at other women either because I am engaged.

I understand that she has problems with her sexuality. However, that doesn't give her the right to shame those women who do feel free about their sexuality, and can enjoy their sexuality freely (like women and men who make porn or watch it).

Of course, as in every area of life, there are those who don't do it for the fun, but are abused. I am not talking about those.

I am talking about those people who simply enjoy sex. And enjoy being watched and get off on knowing people are watching them..

There is nothing wrong with that.

It may be that in the strictest sense, they are prostitutes and/or sluts. However... what is wrong with that?

We are sexual creatures. Some more then others. Celebrate that. Enjoy that. That is not a sin and it is not wrong.

I personally believe that women calling other women sluts or prostitutes for enjoying their own sexuality is more harmful for male/female equality then anything any man can do or say....

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I just wanted to comment on this. I know this is her opinion and not yours, but i find it important enough to not let it slide.



I understand that she has problems with her sexuality. However, that doesn't give her the right to shame those women who do feel free about their sexuality, and can enjoy their sexuality freely (like women and men who make porn or watch it).

Of course, as in every area of life, there are those who don't do it for the fun, but are abused. I am not talking about those.

I am talking about those people who simply enjoy sex. And enjoy being watched and get off on knowing people are watching them..

There is nothing wrong with that.

It may be that in the strictest sense, they are prostitutes and/or sluts. However... what is wrong with that?

We are sexual creatures. Some more then others. Celebrate that. Enjoy that. That is not a sin and it is not wrong.

I personally believe that women calling other women sluts or prostitutes for enjoying their own sexuality is more harmful for male/female equality then anything any man can do or say....

Sandra, you are right, but I think a lot of these beliefs women have about porn/prostitution/"sluts" etc. come from their own issues and feelings of sexual worth/value or whatever.

Hailey has obviously been very traumatised sexually, and I believe this is impacting on her ability to see sex in a healthy, free way. It's probably making her more judgemental about women who actually DO enjoy sex too.

Also, I think a lot of judgements women make about other women's sexuality has to do with their own male/female relationships, and by the experiences they've had in the world growing up, the things they've heard from others etc. A woman who has been sexually repressed in some way will often develop judgemental feelings towards women who are not, especially if their own self worth is tied up in their own sexual behaviour.

I guess I'm saying that sometimes women with sexual hangups and judgement need to be cut a little slack, because they haven't developed in an environment where they could develop healthy ideas about sexuality. I know it has taken me a long time to process my own feelings about sex, because I was raised in an environment where "sex before/outside marriage is bad". And even though I didn't logically believe that, I still developed weird hangups that I wouldn't have developed had I grown up in an environment where sex was seen as a normal, healthy activity between consenting adults.

It's not so easy to re-write the programming we've grown up with, and it generally takes some conscious effort to do so . If you never consciously evaluate your gut reactions to things, you never really overcome them.

[ssandra]

I understand that there are (good) reasons on why people might feel like this.

That doesn't mean that I have to keep silent when I see it happening.

I am not angry, and I don't blame her for thinking that way. But if nobody says anything about it, it will only continue to happen, time and time again.

I believe that those with a healthy view on sexuality have a moral obligation to share that view with those who don't.

Not to convert everybody into a "slut" or promiscuous person. But to make sure that everybody can do with their body whatever it is that they want to do, without being shamed or ridiculed for it.

[Criseyde]

Sandra, this is like the third time I've wanted to rep you today, but couldn't! Really well said.

Gary, I really don't think you're asexual. The fact that you want to have sex with Hailey pretty much negates that possibility. Asexual people don't want to have sex. There are romantic asexual people, who like romance (romantic love, cuddling, kissing, etc etc), and there are aromantic asexual people, who don't like any of it and generally just prefer to have friendships. But it sounds to me like you're both romantic and sexual.

Anyway, I'm really glad that the two of you are going to work on this, and I'm happy for you that she's open to the possibility.

Also, I don't watch porn either (don't see the appeal at all), but I also don't think that the women who do it should be shamed. If they're freely choosing it, then that's great and it's their choice; if they're NOT freely choosing it (e.g. if they're being forced or coerced), then they need help, not condemnation. I also think it's a pretty serious double standard to shame the women as sluts but not the men...

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I understand that there are (good) reasons on why people might feel like this.

That doesn't mean that I have to keep silent when I see it happening.

I am not angry, and I don't blame her for thinking that way. But if nobody says anything about it, it will only continue to happen, time and time again.

I believe that those with a healthy view on sexuality have a moral obligation to share that view with those who don't.

Not to convert everybody into a "slut" or promiscuous person. But to make sure that everybody can do with their body whatever it is that they want to do, without being shamed or ridiculed for it.

Hey, I agree with you . I do think it's important, though, not to call somebody out on it, or make a snap judgement about them because of their own judgemental attitudes (if that makes sense).

Absolutely share your view, but don't make someone feel bad because they haven't been in a place before to understand that view.

I just thought you were maybe a wee bit harsh towards Hailey's view or at least, that's the way it came across in the post. Admittedly, when I read something like "She thinks any woman who is willing to have sex in front of a camera for money is a slut and no different than a prostitute." I tend to get my back up a bit too, because it does seem very harsh and judgemental towards women with a healthy view of sexuality.

Heck, I think I'm just playing Devil's Advocate a bit here too, because although I've had my own hangups about sex etc. I've never made comments like this about other women . I had a good friend who was a prostitute years ago, and knowing what she did for a living, never changed how I felt about her as a person.

But yeah, I do try and see both sides.

And now I feel like I'm rambling a bit...and not really getting my point across .

Suffice to say, yes Sandra I agree with you, and I also feel quite strongly that negative judgements against women who are comfortable with their sexuality is never a good thing. I do hope that Hailey can see that "slut" is never a term that should be used against a fellow women in judgement of her moral belief or character, and I also hope she learns to develop a positive view of sexuality where she can see that sex is not a "bad" or "dirty" thing, even when shared with people outside marriage or a committed relationship.

[ssandra]

I understand where you are coming from.

And I think if she herself was writing this and reading this, I might have worded it differently.

Definitely if it was in a personal conversation with her alone...

However, since a lot of people read this thread, not just the ones participating in it, I didn't just want to let it stand.

Who knows... maybe it gives at least one person some food for thought...?

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

I tend to go for emotional attraction over physical attraction. The latter can be very misleading and that was something I quickly realised after my first girlfriend passed away. I would meet women that looked like her but were nothing like her and I didn’t even ask them out because of that. I decided the best way to find another girlfriend was to become their friend so I could learn more about them first and I ended up not asking any of them out because there were things about them I didn’t like.

My husband is the same way.

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

I even turned down two very attractive women who asked me out because I didn’t see myself having anything in common with them.

Yup. My husband has done this in the past. He turned down girls who were basically offering him free sex because he just wasn't interested in them (his usual complaint was that they were shallow or unintelligent, or both).

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

I need a woman that is fun, smart and as quirky as me or it isn’t going to work.

LOL! You DO sound like my husband.

[Bunterhaperton]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I just wanted to comment on this. I know this is her opinion and not yours, but i find it important enough to not let it slide.



I understand that she has problems with her sexuality. However, that doesn't give her the right to shame those women who do feel free about their sexuality, and can enjoy their sexuality freely (like women and men who make porn or watch it).

Of course, as in every area of life, there are those who don't do it for the fun, but are abused. I am not talking about those.

I am talking about those people who simply enjoy sex. And enjoy being watched and get off on knowing people are watching them..

There is nothing wrong with that.

It may be that in the strictest sense, they are prostitutes and/or sluts. However... what is wrong with that?

We are sexual creatures. Some more then others. Celebrate that. Enjoy that. That is not a sin and it is not wrong.

I personally believe that women calling other women sluts or prostitutes for enjoying their own sexuality is more harmful for male/female equality then anything any man can do or say....

Thing is, when it comes to pornagraphy and prostitution, it is difficult to tell if the woman is doing it because she wants to or is being forced to do it against her will and be abused if she refuses to do it. Most of the time they put on an act to make it difficult to tell. I steer well clear of pornagraphy and prostitutes because of that.

Truth is, pornagraphy is degrading and disrespectful towards women whether they enjoy it or not by portraying them as sex objects and nothing else. Because of this, alot of women in general to do tend to feel uncomfortable around men they don't know because they feel they will be sexually taken advantage of against their will and don't feel they can trust men they don't know alot of the time because of that reason. Pornagraphy does fuel that belief and does encourage men to view women in a degrading and disrespectful way sadly.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Bunterhaperton

Thing is, when it comes to pornagraphy and prostitution, it is difficult to tell if the woman is doing it because she wants to or is being forced to do it against her will and be abused if she refuses to do it. Most of the time they put on an act to make it difficult to tell. I steer well clear of pornagraphy and prostitutes because of that.

Truth is, pornagraphy is degrading and disrespectful towards women whether they enjoy it or not by portraying them as sex objects and nothing else. Because of this, alot of women in general to do tend to feel uncomfortable around men they don't know because they feel they will be sexually taken advantage of against their will and don't feel they can trust men they don't know alot of the time because of that reason. Pornagraphy does fuel that belief and does encourage men to view women in a degrading and disrespectful way sadly.

Ssandra did mention that there are some companies who do this and some women who have had abusive backgrounds who get roped into doing porn against their better judgement, and for them it is not an empowering experience.

Many porn companies these days, and many people who perform in porn are there because they choose to be, and because they WANT to be there. There are lots of women and man who like to view porn, and they still are able to have respectful relationships free from degradation.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Bunterhaperton

Truth is, pornagraphy is degrading and disrespectful towards women whether they enjoy it or not by portraying them as sex objects and nothing else.

Euh.... No.

Pornography is not degrading to women.

There is nothing wrong with viewing women as sex objects in a certain scenario!!. Same goes for men btw.

Just like I would want to be liked for my intelligence in a job situation, I would also like to be noticed for my good looks in a social situation. Or for my sense of humor with friends.

I don't care much while having sex to have someone comment on how intelligent I am. At that moment, that is not the time, nor the place for that.

Because of this, alot of women in general to do tend to feel uncomfortable around men they don't know because they feel they will be sexually taken advantage of against their will and don't feel they can trust men they don't know alot of the time because of that reason. Pornagraphy does fuel that belief and does encourage men to view women in a degrading and disrespectful way sadly.

No. A lot of women feel uncomfortabble around men because they don't know the difference between healthy sexual interest and unhealthy, creepy sexual interest.

Not every man who expresses sexual interest in a woman will take advantage of her. Actually. Most men won't!

Most women get taken advantage of not by strangers. They get abused by people they know. People they are already friends with. Or know well enough to be alone with.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Most women get taken advantage of not by strangers. They get abused by people they know. People they are already friends with. Or know well enough to be alone with.

I know this is what is acknowledged as being the case, but I just thought I'd chime in and say...not always.

I was sexually assaulted by someone I didn't know who frequented a bar I worked in, and again by someone I didn't know at all that I met in the street. It also happened to me after a party I was at with someone I didn't know that well.

I know a woman who was raped by a bus driver, so it's not always the case that these things only happen with people the woman knows personally.

I've had a total stranger come up and sit down beside me and start touching my leg...and then do it to my friend after I got up and walked away. I've also had to stare down a total stranger hiding behind a bush preparing to pounce on me in the middle of the night.

It happens.

I've never had anything of this nature happen to me with a friend or family member, although a friend of my fathers did try it on me once.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

Hailey thinks porn is degrading to woman and encourages rape. Her Uncle has a large porn collection and she often gets into heated arguments with him about it. She thinks any woman who is willing to have sex in front of a camera for money is a slut and no different than a prostitute. She also doesn’t understand why they do it when she made more money than quite a few of them modelling. I never got the appeal of porn it seems like something a lot of desperate blokes would watch that can’t get girlfriends but that’s just my opinion. I don’t need to look at other women either because I am engaged.

Your girlfriend sounds selfish and judgemental. Perhaps you are misrepresenting her, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. You also make her sound elitist about her modeling, which is still selling your body. I'm a self-proclaimed slut, what of it? I have screwed about 42 guys and girls. I was also a stripper and was briefly a call girl. I don't find it degrading. Guys oogle you and pay you compliments and normally treat you like a queen or at least a trusted friend. I would love to do porn, only it's illegal where I live. Does that make me bad person? How would she like it if I said any woman who doesn't have sex with her own boyfriend is an insecure prude?

It's none of her business that her uncle has a porn stash. It's his private business and she should show her uncle respect instead of prying into his private affairs. Porn doesn't encourage rape. According to Abnormal Psychology the textbook, rape is not about sex, it's about control. You may not see the appeal of porn, but most men and some women like variety and porn provides that service. "For every hot girl out there, there's a dude who's sick of bangin her" -Charlie Sheen.

According to counselor at Victims of Sexual Assault Prevention Center, it takes exactly one year to get over a rape. It's been seven long years, it's time for her to move on.

Rape is not the worst thing that can happen to a woman. She could have gotten AIDS, she could have gotten pregnant by the victim, she could have been brutally beaten and decapitated. There are also a lot of gray areas with consent which is why rape is so hard to prove. People with AIDS wish they could have sex.

Do not marry her until she learns to stop hating men and makes herself vulnerable to you.

What if you decide you want to sire children? What if the child is a boy?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Your girlfriend sounds like a selfish, judgemental feminazi. I'm a self-proclaimed slut, what of it? I have screwed about 42 guys and girls. I was also a stripper and was briefly a prostitute. I don't find it degrading, I find it empowering. Guys oogle you and pay you compliments and normally treat you like a queen or at least a trusted friend. I would love to do porn, only it's illegal where I live. Does that make me bad person? How would she like it if I said any woman who doesn't have sex with her own boyfriend is an insecure prude?

Um...no one is making judgements towards you personally here, so what's with the defensiveness? Gary is relating his girlfriends attitude, and it's a little bit much to be heaping this on him don't you think? He's not the one who thinks that about porn people. Attacking his girlfriend through him is a little callous in my opinion. She's been raped...do you have any idea what that will do to a woman?

According to counselor at Victims of Sexual Assault Prevention Center, it takes exactly ONE YEAR to get over a rape. It's been seven long years, it's time for her to get over herself.

Whoever the counsellors are that you are referring to, they have absolutely NO understanding of human individuality and that each person has their own healing process, which can take as long as that person needs to process. There is no time limit for healing. Whoever said that has no business being a rape crisis counsellor.

It's supremely ignorant and heartless of you to now be telling this woman, via her husband to be, to get over herself. You have no concept of what she went through, or the damage it did to her...so who are you to judge and to tell her to get over it, when YOU think she should.

Could you be any more insensitive?

Rape is not the worst thing that can happen to a woman. She could have gotten AIDS, she could have gotten pregnant by the victim, she could have been brutally beaten and decapitated. There are also a lot of gray areas with consent which is why rape is so hard to prove.

You are minimizing an act of extreme degradation and violation and comparing it to other things you know nothing about personally, AND you are also insinuating that she is lying about being raped.

You are being seriously offensive here, and also exposing how completely ignorant you are. How do you know that she wasn't brutally beaten? The OP did not reveal the details of her attack, nor is he obliged to.

Your girlfriend is being a spoiled brat. She's using you for love without returning the favor with sex. You're better than me, because I would have snapped and told her off or blatantly cheated on her with no guilt. She's breaking her end of the contract so it's fine if you break your end of the contract by cheating. Do not marry her until she learns to stop hating men.

So you feel that it's your right to tell a complete stranger what to do with his life and deciding that this is her motivations. I think you have NO IDEA what you are even talking about, and you have obviously NEVER experienced rape first hand or you would not be saying this.

[CroMagna]

I made my post more sobering before I saw your response. I pulled back.

I still maintain that she ought to toughen up a little. Rape is not the end of the world. But I realize that I was being too callous at first. I was just really offended by what he said. I changed my post. No hard feelings?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I made my post more sobering before I saw your response. I pulled back.

I still maintain that she ought to toughen up a little. Rape is not the end of the world. But I realize that I was being too callous at first. I was just really offended by what he said. I changed my post. No hard feelings?

You don't know what you are talking about!

Believe me, rape HAS made her toughen up in ways she never would have dreamed of. Sexual dysfunction is but one sad aftermath of rape, and it takes time to get past.

Hailey is free to take all the time she needs to heal from this, and she is lucky to have a guy so willing to stand by her through it all. Most guys would have left her in the dust for someone who 'puts out' more regularly.

Next time stop yourself before you make comments about things you really know nothing about...it only makes YOU look...really really bad.

[CroMagna]

You seem to know more about this than I do so I'll just take a step back.

[elucidate]

What I find really dangerous is when so called rape crisis counsellors go around saying things like "it takes exactly a year to get over being raped".

If a woman has been particularly visciously raped and beaten, then it could take many years to move past all the trauma of that event, and if she hears from a so called expert that she is supposed to be over it in just a year...don't you think that would add to her already huge burden of recovery?

Can you not see how that would make her feel even worse or somehow slow or defective if she still had lots of work to do after a year had passed and didn't feel ready to enter into sexual relations yet. It would make her recovery all the more stressful and unnecessarily hard, as well as make her feel bad when she already feels terrible.

The fact that you believed these "experts" and they are spreading this message all around, so that people who have only half a brain and no tact are hearing this, then they will be telling this to women who have been raped, without thinking of the consequences and how it would affect someone who is already vulnerable and traumatized.

I have had my own experiences of this and it has affected my sexuality which I am still dealing with 8 years later...so to hear someone spout on about things they really know nothing about, all because one person relayed an opinion his fiance has, and you got offended...I mean, why would you be so easily offended by something someone you don't even know said? Maybe YOU are the one who needs to "toughen up"?

Now, I'm not saying that certain things you said aren't accurate, like about how there are often grey areas in rape scenarios...but seeing as none of us know the actual story of Hailey's attack, it is pretty offensive to insinuate to her long time partner that she may not be telling the whole truth.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter...and I think you've gotten the message.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

According to counselor at Victims of Sexual Assault Prevention Center, it takes exactly one year to get over a rape.

WTF?

I would believe it takes AT LEAST one year. But not EXACTLY one year. No competent counsellor could possibly believe that healing from some traumatic event -- especially when everyone has their own possible previous traumas and other complicating factors -- is going to take "exactly" X amount of time. It's ludicrous.

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Rape is not the worst thing that can happen to a woman.

Honestly, it depends on the woman. Some women I know have been profoundly traumatised by childbirth, whereas most women are not. Trauma is in the eye of the beholder, in all cases.

For me, rape was not the most significantly traumatic thing ever to happen to me, but that says more about the levels of trauma in my life than about the nature of being raped. (And for me, childbirth wasn't anywhere near the highest level of pain I've ever felt, but plenty of women say that for them, it was.)

Originally Posted by CroMagna

she could have gotten pregnant

In fact, Hailey did get pregnant via the rape. She is raising the child. Gary was clear about that.

You seem to have taken a third hand report of the views of pornography held by someone you don't even know as a personal insult. Keep that up and you'll spend the rest of your life being in a constantly insulted state.

[GaryMichaels]

Thanks Elucidate and Butterfly Woman

The idea that Hailey or any other woman that has been raped during their life should be able to ‘get over it’ in one year is absolutely ridiculous and goes to show you have never been raped or physically abused or you would have a different perspective on this subject. I have never been raped so I don’t know what that experience felt like for Hailey but I see how emotional she gets when it is brought up and it kills me watching her cry because I wish there was something more I could do to help her.

I lost my former girlfriend when I was when seventeen. We were basically best friends from the day we were born and it took me more than a year to get over it. I watched her die and I would be lying if I said I don’t miss her now but I moved on and I have a wonderful Fiancée that helped me. My point is you don’t just ‘get over’ traumatic experiences in the course of a year. Anybody who says they do are either trying to hide their pain or lying to themselves. Whatever counsellor told you that shouldn’t even have a job in my opinion. Rape is not the only contributing factor to Hailey’s hatred of men.

Hailey was physically abused in a number of relationships and one of her ex boyfriends tried to lock her in his house for a year and when she didn’t do what he told her to do he would hit her. She was scared to leave him and it was her Father that got her away from him. Her hatred partly comes from her Mother too who gave up dating anybody when her father cheated on her. While Hailey kept a strong relationship with her Dad after the divorce and moved to another state with him because she had a brief falling out with her Mother she never forgave him for cheating on her Mother.

Hailey does not have to go through her Uncle’s private things to know about his porn collection as he talks about it to everybody and is going through what is known as a midlife crisis where he thinks all the women in the movies are in love with him. He even talks to some of them on their websites.

Hailey is not a prude. When she was a model she posed nude often and she didn’t have a problem doing it before she was raped but she has always believed sex should be kept private between two people and shouldn’t be filmed for everybody to watch. She thinks it is degrading to women who don't do porn because males watch it and expect them to perform acts they do in the movies. My view on the industry is different than Hailey’s but I do agree that some forms of porn do encourage rape such as women being tied up, gagged and slapped around.

I don't agree that all porn should be banned but I think some of it should such as the above. Human's having sex with animals is animal cruelty and child porn encourages paedophiles. Anybody that tries to justify those two are seriously messed up. I don’t like porn and as I mentioned on a previous post I think the majority of people who watch it are desperate blokes that can’t get girlfriends, blokes like Hailey’s Uncle going through midlife crises or people in unhappy marriages. I prefer classics horror movie series like A Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday the 13th, Halloween, Child’s Play, Hellraiser etc and Reese Witherspoon and Drew Barrymore movies but hey, that’s just me.

By the way Butterfly Woman, if your husband is anything like me he must love you as much as I love Hailey

[Bunterhaperton]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Your girlfriend sounds selfish and judgemental. Perhaps you are misrepresenting her, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. You also make her sound elitist about her modeling, which is still selling your body. I'm a self-proclaimed slut, what of it? I have screwed about 42 guys and girls. I was also a stripper and was briefly a call girl. I don't find it degrading. Guys oogle you and pay you compliments and normally treat you like a queen or at least a trusted friend. I would love to do porn, only it's illegal where I live. Does that make me bad person? How would she like it if I said any woman who doesn't have sex with her own boyfriend is an insecure prude?

It's none of her business that her uncle has a porn stash. It's his private business and she should show her uncle respect instead of prying into his private affairs. Porn doesn't encourage rape. According to Abnormal Psychology the textbook, rape is not about sex, it's about control. You may not see the appeal of porn, but most men and some women like variety and porn provides that service. "For every hot girl out there, there's a dude who's sick of bangin her" -Charlie Sheen.

According to counselor at Victims of Sexual Assault Prevention Center, it takes exactly one year to get over a rape. It's been seven long years, it's time for her to move on.

Rape is not the worst thing that can happen to a woman. She could have gotten AIDS, she could have gotten pregnant by the victim, she could have been brutally beaten and decapitated. There are also a lot of gray areas with consent which is why rape is so hard to prove. People with AIDS wish they could have sex.

Do not marry her until she learns to stop hating men and makes herself vulnerable to you.

What if you decide you want to sire children? What if the child is a boy?

The reason why Hailey is angry and totally against her uncle having a porn collection is because it is possible that she may be worried and frightened that there is the possibility that one day her uncle might try and sexually take advantage of her because there is a possibility that he may be secretly addicted to porn and secretly view women in a degrading and disrespectful way without anyone knowing.

Also, have you ever been in a position where you have been raped by a man you know and completely trusted and become pregnant by that man which in result become completely and severely traumatised by the whole experience? From the comments that you've written, it doesn't seem so. I think you should try to be alot more positive and understanding to people's traumatic life experiences, even though you've never experienced it yourself.

[CroMagna]

GM, you sound like a wonderful human being. I shouldn't have gotten so defensive but I'm sensitive to slut bashing because of things that have happened to me in the past. I'm glad you took it in stride.

[RonSouther]

Gary, your love is amazing for this lady!

The direction this thread is going is useless in the context of Gary's heart. I think the mods should split this thread, taking with it the porn and rape debate to a new thread. Gary's heart is being lost in this sidetrack.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

By the way Butterfly Woman, if your husband is anything like me he must love you as much as I love Hailey

Certainly that appears to be the case. Although he's much relieved that I'm nowhere near as high maintenance as I used to be.

[JSB]

Sorry if I'm veering a little off topic here, but I have a question related to what you wrote.

Why is watching films of graphic, bloody simulated murder, torture, sadism, demonic evil, and abuse considered harmless entertainment, but watching films of people sharing pleasure, sexuality, and joy considered immoral and obscene?

I know this is not a new question, but I really am curious about this mindset because I jsut don't get it. I'm not talking about abusive child porn or sexual exploitation or anything like that, just sex on film between consenting adults.

I do believe that viewing too much porn can be unhealthy (just as playing too many videogames or eating too much junk food can be unhealthy), but if it's choice between watching graphic sex for entertainment (in moderation) and watching graphic violence for entertainment (in moderation), I have no doubt which is more damaging to one's humanity.

If I had to choose, I would rather let my child see two beautiful, naked people sharing sexual pleasure, than see someone being slowly tortured to death in bloody agony while screaming and begging for their life.

Originally Posted by GaryMichaels

...
I prefer classics horror movie series like A Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday the 13th, Halloween, Child’s Play, Hellraiser etc ...

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by JSB

Sorry if I'm veering a little off topic here, but I have a question related to what you wrote.

Why is watching films of graphic, bloody simulated murder, torture, sadism, demonic evil, and abuse considered harmless entertainment, but watching films of people sharing pleasure, sexuality, and joy considered immoral and obscene?

I know this is not a new question, but I really am curious about this mindset because I jsut don't get it. I'm not talking about abusive child porn or sexual exploitation or anything like that, just sex on film between consenting adults.

I do believe that viewing too much porn can be unhealthy (just as playing too many videogames or eating too much junk food can be unhealthy), but if it's choice between watching graphic sex for entertainment (in moderation) and watching graphic violence for entertainment (in moderation), I have no doubt which is more damaging to one's humanity.

If I had to choose, I would rather let my child see two beautiful, naked people sharing sexual pleasure, than see someone being slowly tortured to death in bloody agony while screaming and begging for their life.

I think the same thing, and when I woke up to this paradox, suddenly I couldn't watch the violence anymore at all, and what little porn I saw meant nothing to me either...I didn't decide to drop it, I just can't see the entertainment in it. I see both violence and porn as food for the hankering mind, looking to be distracted from facing reality.

I don't think that any of what is available in porn is a reflection of the kind of love Gary has and I wouldn't want my kids to watch two people getting off on each other without the two people really loving each other.

I don't see that any video of violence or sex is natural and healthy, regardless. I think it loads up the mind with pseudo stuff that would be healthy not to have logged in the memory.

I think a better way to provide sex education to kids (and I'm going to be shot for this) is for it to naturally occur at home where the parents are loving each other deeply where the child is free to witness. (The perverted minds will jump on me for this.) That would start from the earliest days, just as parents would hug and kiss. The kid has no perverted thoughts, just witnessing nature like in everything else. But this would take two really intelligent parents in a deep love relating which is rare so I can't see this being practical.

I've never seen a video of sex that seemed to be of deep love. And if deep love isn't there then I see sex being used like a drug and not a gift for the other, not a rise of love with each other. Sex in deep love is remarkably vanilla because the joy is already there even before the sex so sex doesn't have to be a continual pursuit of the next kinky idea to keep it fresh.

Sex in deep love is merely adding the body to the joy that already exists!

[Bunterhaperton]

Originally Posted by JSB

Sorry if I'm veering a little off topic here, but I have a question related to what you wrote.

Why is watching films of graphic, bloody simulated murder, torture, sadism, demonic evil, and abuse considered harmless entertainment, but watching films of people sharing pleasure, sexuality, and joy considered immoral and obscene?

I know this is not a new question, but I really am curious about this mindset because I jsut don't get it. I'm not talking about abusive child porn or sexual exploitation or anything like that, just sex on film between consenting adults.

I do believe that viewing too much porn can be unhealthy (just as playing too many videogames or eating too much junk food can be unhealthy), but if it's choice between watching graphic sex for entertainment (in moderation) and watching graphic violence for entertainment (in moderation), I have no doubt which is more damaging to one's humanity.

If I had to choose, I would rather let my child see two beautiful, naked people sharing sexual pleasure, than see someone being slowly tortured to death in bloody agony while screaming and begging for their life.

The difference is that with violence in films, it is 100% fake with special effects and acted out by professional actors/actresses. Alot of the violence that is acted out in films in usually far fetched and does not really reflect reality at all, it's fantasy and escapsim for entertainment. The sex that you see in the films is also 100% fake and acted out or simulated by professional actors/actresses.

With porn though, everything you see is 100% real and uncensored, which is what causes it to be immoral and obscene. It's also incorrect and unhealthy sex education to children because of them copying on what they see is real and increase the risk of underage pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. Also with porn, the person viewing it does not have any idea if the person onscreen that is the doing the sexual acts is doing it out of choice or being forced to do it through abuse due to the person having to perform an act to show that the person is 'enjoying' it when it could secretly be the complete opposite.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Bunterhaperton

Also with porn, the person viewing it does not have any idea if the person onscreen that is the doing the sexual acts is doing it out of choice or being forced to do it through abuse due to the person having to perform an act to show that the person is 'enjoying' it when it could secretly be the complete opposite.

Porn is mainstream today. There are plenty of popular stars who give interviews, write blogs, etc., and it's quite possible to see if they are doing things of their own free will or not. The fact is, most mainstream popular porn stars are doing it for the same reason anyone else want to be in movies: money and fame (attention). Some of them also have very high sex drives and are happy to take advantage of that fact.

Additionally, there is porn made by female directors, with more of an erotic, sensual or "romantic" approach.

I'm not saying porn is healthy, because it is an unrealistic fantasy that can skew people's perceptions of real sexuality, but I don't think it's any more unhealthy than the shallow materialism, fake "rom com" fantasies, and glorification of narcissism that we get from much of mainstream TV movies.

I still hate the idea that sex is considered immoral or obscene. It's a natural biological function and sex for pleasure doesn't deserve any more scorn than eating for pleasure, unless it's done in an unhealthy manner.

Traditional "morality" has brainwashed us to hate our own biological natures.