Mr. Nice Guy

[auburn]

I recently went for online dating after over a year of being single. This is unknown territory for me because I've always had long term relationships from the time I was a teenager (I'm in my mid-30s). I had a few wacky to ok dates from the online website and then came this guy, Mr. Nice Guy.

We had an excellent first date. Basically, Mr. Nice Guy and I have a very good connection, similar interests, a similar sense of humour. Physically speaking, he's a bit dorky with a Stephen Harper comb over but, he looks good and he has a ''little something'' sexy lurking underneath. He is in his early 30s and he has spent his energy mostly on academic matters and has little experience with women and no long-term relationships (but not a virgin).

So after he tells me he really likes me, we decided to do a second date. So, I amp it up a bit by suggesting a romantic place we could stroll together. The date went well but, was strictly friendly. I decided I wanted to test drive the romantic potential of our thing (talk about being a girl with a plan... ) when nothing was pointing to us becoming intimate.

The whole thing felt kind of awkward to me but, just when I was about to keep strolling he held me close. So I turned to him and went for a kiss. Again, I felt awkward because he seemed kind of reluctant or shy and I also was. Also, his kissing was...well, abysmal (I'm a certified tremendous kisser, not to brag ). I'm not ready to just dismiss a man for abysmal kissing if there is passion or sensuality beneath but, the passion/sensuality was not there for me.

We agreed to a third date. I decided beforehand that I was going to tell him then that I did not sense potential in his kissing, uh, in our relationship

I started broaching the subject of online dating and the tricky nature of those relationships. He talked about a theory according to which guys go in two different zones for women: the Friend Zone or the Boyfriend Zone. I thought he was going to ask me in which zone I felt he was and the whole thing would have unraveled but he said that he just went with the flow. We ended up talking about going with the flow and I did not talk about zoning.

At the end of this very nice third date, I thought he may have felt we were more friends than couple as there was almost no touching going on between us and no kissing. I felt bad about losing him because he had said he did not believe in staying friends with a woman who has you in his friend zone when you are attracted to her. I feel he's a very good date for companionship and a good man who has real potential as a long-term partner. I'm just not sure about our sexual potential.

After that date he basically wrote me saying I had everything he needs in a woman and he wanted to see me again. Now, I feel mixed up.

I'm not sure how to proceed. Am I going too fast in trying to generate sensual/sexual connection? (I know some women jump in the sack way earlier than that but, I don't do that. No judgement here, just my personality). I really like him. I don't need a man and have become surprisingly used to being single but, I really appreciated our dates and the companionship we shared. I don't want to play games or hurt this man.

This online thing is difficult. I'm used to having boyfriends who I knew for many months to a year before anything happened and I now feel pressured to feel things after knowing this man for just two weeks. It feels like an arranged marriage.

What do you think? Am I putting too much pressure for feeling things? Should I keep dating, go with the flow for a longer while? Or should I tell him how I feel sexually speaking and stop right there? Or tell him we can continue dating but I'm not sure ''which zone he is in'' yet? (that'd be stressful for him, I think).

With his email, he is worth an answer that will not lead him on but, I'm not sure what to answer exactly.

[Philemon]

Sounds like you have some genuine feelings for him. Focus on that. Satisfaction of the libido can be developed in time. Maybe he just needs some kind lessons in romanticism and sexuality.

Of course, that can be a tough spot to be in. So I will say proceed with some caution. Trust your intuition. If it doesn't feel right, move on. But right now you're saying a lot of good things about this guy, so I say give it a shot.

[Alen]

There is no right answer to this question I think.

After all, these are your feelings we are talking about. The only thing that matters is how you feel about Mr. Nice Guy. If you are 100% certain he is in the friend zone just be straightforward and tell him that. Man appreciate direct conversations.

If you are not 100% than don't over rationalize. Just go out with him for a couple of times and see what happens. I believe you will be quite sure what to do after spending more time with him.

[auburn]

Mmm. Ok. Yes, I am not 100 % sure. Maybe I'm just slow or maybe there's no romance there, I don't know which it is.

Now, I want to respond to his message but am not sure what to say. Do I just say: ''Yes, I want to keep seeing you.'' or ''I'm not sure where we stand but I'd like to go out again''? That sounds brutal. Maybe I should not say anything else other than: ''let's do something again!''.

The thing that bothers me in my response is that for me, it would mean a few more dates to mull this over and see what direction it is taking and for him, it might mean more than that (based on his email sort of ''praising me'' for my qualities)...I don't want to hurt him down the line.

Yes, I am overthinking this...

[auburn]

Woo. I told him what I felt and stopped the dating. He was not pleased.

[vytas80]

Originally Posted by auburn

Woo. I told him what I felt and stopped the dating. He was not pleased.

Where you attracted to him physically before the "kiss of death"?

[auburn]

Not really. He was talking and I was looking at him and pondering about that: ''Nice voice, good mannerisms and good manners, handsome face''. But in terms of physically coming closer, I did not feel it.

I chalked it up to it being a first date and based on the overall connection we had, went for a second date. Now, I kind of think if he had been slightly more touchy, more flirtatious, maybe something could have developed but, I don't know for sure.

His confused and hurt response surprised me a bit because I felt we had this ''friend vibe'' that was obvious. The whole story makes me so sad. I do feel a lot sadder than I should for a 3-date affair. Because I really wanted it to work. In my head.

Maybe I'm just slow. I never developed a relationship within days or weeks. It usually takes me months of knowing someone. When I think of my past love, I can remember the very first time and the second time I saw him. The first time was kind of weird so I thought: ''Hey, what is that guy doing here.'', and the second time: ''Woo. That guy is quite sexy.'' He had a definite something attractive from the get-go. But it still took months for us to end up together. If I connect myself to that past experience, I know very well how it's supposed to feel.

[Alen]

Before I read the last part of your post I wanted to congratulate you on your decision. If you know yourself so well (to know that you need time to develop a romantic relationship) than you should put that in the consideration when deciding what to do.

The only way to grow is to do something different/hopefully better then the last time. When you know how your mind and emotions are working you can use them to work for you.

I suggest you take a notebook and start writing down your daily discoveries. For example: Today I have found out that waiting in line for a coffee in that restaurant makes me tremendously nervous. As I don't want to experience nervousness in my life I have decided to go the coffee shop near by.

Then reread what you have written at least once 14 days. It will help!

[Fred Tracy]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

The guy should make you feel an instant attraction for him. If he can't do that, don't bother forcing it. It will just end badly for the both of you.

I can see why you wouldn't feel any sexual tension with him from your description.

From this perspective, I can see why he wouldn't want to be "friend-zoned" with a woman. I had a girl try to that a while back to me. I haven't talked to her since. Our needs are simply incompatible.

This sounds like he wants something with you, but you don't feel it for him. And you not feeling it for him means his needs are not being met.

No ones needs are being met with this thing. Find someone else IMO.

[auburn]

I have to admit it is quite difficult to ''manage'' men met through online dating. You have to be able to make a quick decision based on attraction and other levels of compatibility. If you linger too much with someone with whom you don't feel much, you risk hurting the man (or the girl). As opposed to ''real life'' where you can meet people and take your time.

The whole exercise makes me discover the power of attraction, not necessarily something I was conscious of formerly. Also, it makes me realize how many autistic men are dating online...

@Alen: the notebook exercise sounds good and I will try it. I have a diary but don't systematically write down little personal discoveries. Fun idea.

[Brutha]

Am I going too fast in trying to generate sensual/sexual connection? (I know some women jump in the sack way earlier than that but, I don't do that. No judgement here, just my personality). I really like him. I don't need a man and have become surprisingly used to being single but, I really appreciated our dates and the companionship we shared. I don't want to play games or hurt this man.

The opposite of playing games is to be open with the other person. How about telling him what you told us?

[C33]

I think dating is the wrong medium for love to develop, especially online dating.

For one thing you have to sift through so many candidates, and you are not even sure the right person is going to be in that pool. Personally, I see it as a waste of time and a setting for desperation and frustration.
A lot of loneliness, desperation, coming from a place of lack with that medium.

If you are re-entering the dating pool through an internet dating site, it might be daunting and discouraging.

The dating format is good when attraction has already developed and you are dating to confirm there is compatibility beyond the physical attraction. You can also develop emotional and intellectual attraction through meeting periodically.

Forcing attraction and trying to conveniently pace it doesn't work, especially when the guy ( who is conventionally the driver of the pace of getting closer physically) is uncomfortable around being touched/kissed, etc...

I think there are a lot of people who hide dysfunctionalities of all sorts behind a screen, and think that they will magically disappear when they'll meet someone IRL. Unfortunately, they become nervous during the date, because they are not used to being face to face with someone they like, and the situation becomes ackward.As a result, they freak out the other person, and the game is over.

A nice guy who is a bad kisser is not necessarily bad news, as you can train him. However, someone who is uncomfortable around anything physical, being touching, kissing, holding hands, etc...might have sexual issues that you'll need to deal with. There is a difference between being reserved and being closed up.

The" playing it by ear and seeing how things develop" sounds nice and low pressure, but in the end, it can be a tactic to delay the revelation of insecurities and fears that are incompatible with a healthy romantic relationship.


All of this is IMHO and according to my experience with dating.

I haven't dated conventionally in 8 months and have no intention of dating conventionally again.

The pressure of developing a romantic relationship through unnatural, forced means of relating to others is off my shoulders and I find this quite relaxing.

Not that I don't find myself feeling lonely and wanting to share my life experience with someone truly special, but the idea of going out on dates, and trying to figure out whether I like someone or not or whether someone likes me or not is repellent.

OP, you followed your gut feeling and that's the best you could do in regards to the information you had. It would have been helpful to know why this guy was so upset when you decided to stop dating him, when it looks like he was the one freezing up on you and pushing you away physically. It's a tight rope to walk for guys who don't want to feel pushy but don't know how to subtly show physical interest.

[Curious cat]

Originally Posted by vytas80

Where you attracted to him physically before the "kiss of death"?

So sorry to derail this post but this cheeky statement made me laugh.

[MyEyeIsOpen]

I feel bad for the guy. What happened was that he liked you a lot, and felt attracted to you, but had no ♥♥♥♥ing idea how to escalate things even though he desperately wanted to. He needs some man training or something. It wasn't you, that's just how he rolls.

I think it would've been interesting to see what he did if you told him point blank: look man, I really like you, and I think you really like me, but you have to show it. Stop being so timid and touch me and kiss me and make me feel like a woman that you desire. I'll never bring it up again, this is the biggest and best hint that any man has ever gotten in the history of the human race, so don't squander it.

You're certainly under no obligation to train him though!

[auburn]

I have nothing against training a man to kiss!

It was not so much the kiss itself as the lack of anything behind it. Maybe simply the attraction was missing.

I took a break from online dating and am not sure I will go back to it. It just seems so flawed. Too much pressure too fast. Plus, it takes a lot of time to meet people you don't want to meet again.

The thing right now is I may not be in a position to meet interesting men from the activities I currently have and the lack of time to enjoy activities. I'm also a solitary person by nature.

Future plans for activities that may lead me to meet men are: kickboxing classes and public speaking workshops. Owning a small parrot and attending the Association of Bird Owners seemed like an interesting activity too. I would think the men there kiss well from practice.

[auburn]

Hoo-hoo. The ''Kiss of Death Guy'' is back...

He sent me an innocuous email about something we had talked about and it became an exchange. He would like to meet again, as a friend. I'm tempted to say yes.

I wouldn't want him to have illusions...Should I make things clear about having no romantic expectations and agree to meet as a friend?

[Brutha]

I wouldn't want him to have illusions...Should I make things clear about having no romantic expectations and agree to meet as a friend?

Why not? If he has illusions that's his problem.

[Curious cat]

I say do it. He's a grown man .... His bad if he misconstrues things after you make yourself clear. Give yourself a chance to get to know him better and see where this slippery dip takes you.

[auburn]

Turns out Mr. Nice Guy is not so nice after all.

I'll tell you the end of the story 'cause it's real precious.

So, after he emailed me saying we should see each other again, I wrote him reminding him of my last email, making sure he did not have expectations other than friendship. My exact words had been that I did not see a possibility either for romance or for sex. He answers that he has no expectations other than friendship because I'm just soooo niiiice...

We went out for coffee. Everything was just all right. A few days later, he calls me out of the blue, not suggesting anything. I ask him if he meant to go anywhere. He's just doing his thing, is very busy next week. All right, let me know when you want to do something.

He emails me today, saying in a somewhat aggressive tone that he's not interested in meeting with me anymore since I'm ''playing the friends with no benefits card'' and that he's moving on. I got caught up in the word ''playing'' because I'm not playing any game at all. I wanted to clear that one up. So, I answer that I'm not playing and that my words were clear from both my emails before we met again as friends. I wish him luck.

He answers that he changed his mind, he wants sex, that it's normal to change his mind over such a ''bizarre arrangement as I made'', so no time to lose with me, always with that tone.

I then wrote: ''You are right. You badly need sex. Aggressive much.''

He responded this time with real aggressivity saying that he did not have time to lose with a tea drinker who doesn't know how to ackowledge her desires, that I was the aggressive one because I used an exclamation mark when I wrote ''good luck!''. He adds that I should be happy that he neglects me the way I neglected him, not asking me anything and so we are equals. He ends by saying ''stop harrrassing me''.

!!!!! (non-aggressive exclamation marks rather made of pure amazement at the callousness of the guy.)

This came from a man in his early 30s who has a Ph.D. (I thought it was in Literature when in fact, it's in Idiocy).

It's also the first time my passion for tea has been turned into an insult.

Lesson 1: NEVER meet as friends a man who expected to date you from the get-go.
Lesson 2: Even if a guy says he does not expect sex, he probably does, especially if he drops hints and sex stories from his past. Don't be naive, keep clear.
Lesson 3: I don't need that kind of behaviour in my life from dating online and will stay away from the website.

[Curious cat]

This proves your instincts about him were right. At least now you know for sure!

Looks like a date with Mr Palm and his five daughters for Mr-Not-So-Nice-Guy after all.

And yes, if it were me, I would think he's messed up too!

[auburn]

Mr. Palm, yes!

I don't know that my instinct was right: after all, I did feel the man was nice. In the four meetings we had, I never picked up on any idiocy. What I should have picked up is how much he wanted the sex even after he said otherwise.

He did have somewhat of a self-important tone when telling about past sexual encounters and when I told him it was a ''no'' for me. But nothing that alerted me to serious problems in self-image or jerkiness.

Certainly, the kiss of death should have sealed it. Done and done by the second date. Anyway, good learning.

Oh, and I'm SO glad I did not sleep with him. Byark!

Maybe a man in his 30s who has not have a serious relationship yet just spells out trouble?