[ADULT] Is sexual preference malleable?

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by craftyjake

Thought I'd throw my two cents in here.

Recent anecdotes from men have demonstrated a surprisingly common pattern of sexual tastes becoming morphed after overexposure to more "normal" porn. For example, many hetero guys find themselves moving from jailbait to female bodybuilders to trannies to animals, and the like-- from one extreme to another more extreme field. Not sure how this directly relates to the malleability of sexual orientation, but interesting nonetheless.

I can see this. Its biology, not "porn is bad, mkay". There's acknowledged to be some degree of "needing a challenge" (the dopamine reward system) in male sexuality. The dopamine reward system can actually get desensitized so that one needs greater and greater novelty to get the same "high".

When the reliance is upon flesh and blood women, the fact that women in themselves are challenging just based upon being real people with their own needs who may say no, kick you in the nads, or call the cops, provides the reward.

[Annie Zero]

Originally Posted by lycan

Isn't it funny how social knowledge works? I don't need citations because I'm talking about reality here. Anyone who bothers to, can easily find this to be true. It makes no difference to me if you believe it or not. Knowing something about reality that you do not gives me an advantage over you.

See:

Originally Posted by lycan

You are making a lot of assumptions.

(I was referring to a certain person, a certain person who isn't you. I wasn't assuming anything at all.)

And you're assuming I don't know any gay people in Real Life; FYI I've been involved in the LGBT communit/y/ies since I was 15. And what I know ("social knowledge"!) is that sexual orientation is about as fluid as one's gender: surely you can discover different sides to yourself as time progresses but drastic 180 changes just don't happen.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Explain to me how the hell I'm supposed to "make myself" start being attracted to men.

There's no such thing as "make", or force. If you would be successful in returning to how you were heterosexually made, it's called being helped/guided... in healing yourself. 'Regress to cause...hypnosis', amongst others. It needs someone who knows what they are doing. - But yes, you can Change!

[Annie Zero]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

There's no such thing as "make", or force. If you would be successful in returning to how you were heterosexually made, it's called being helped/guided... in healing yourself. 'Regress to cause...hypnosis', amongst others. It needs someone who knows what they are doing. - But yes, you can Change!

._.

I'm this close to saying that this sort of thing should be forbidden on these forums. It's disgusting and vile, and entirely contrary to the subject's personal development. And don't think that your "nice" tone is helping -- what it is is manipulative.

re "healing" -- don't fix it if it ain't broken. Why does a gay person need "healing"? Would you like to be "healed" from being attracted to the opposite sex? How would that work out?

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

There's no such thing as "make", or force. If you would be successful in returning to how you were heterosexually made, it's called being helped/guided... in healing yourself. 'Regress to cause...hypnosis', amongst others. It needs someone who knows what they are doing. - But yes, you can Change!

Aahh, so what do you suggest? ECT? Exodus ministries?

[awdye]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Aahh, so what do you suggest? ECT? Exodus ministries?

That might be kind of harsh. Maybe start with electric shock treatment.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by awdye

That might be kind of harsh. Maybe start with electric shock treatment.

Or hire a homeless man to shout at you for an hour every day. That's how I got over my crippling Twinkie addiction. Now whenever I even think about that delicious cream filling I flash back to the shouting.

Dear god the shouting...

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by Annie Zero

._.

I'm this close to saying that this sort of thing should be forbidden on these forums. It's disgusting and vile, and entirely contrary to the subject's personal development. And don't think that your "nice" tone is helping -- what it is is manipulative.

re "healing" -- don't fix it if it ain't broken. Why does a gay person need "healing"? Would you like to be "healed" from being attracted to the opposite sex? How would that work out?

+1 !! Reading that sort of stuff makes me nauseous... I think it's awful to suggest to a homosexual person that they were "heterosexually made" and can be "healed". I also don't think that belongs on a personal development forum...

[ZephyrusX]

Sk8joyful: I identify as homosexual and I am not in need of healing. I'm a perfectly healthy adult woman mentally, spiritually and physically. I just like other women. Can you see how your choice of words can be offensive? Saying that one is able to be helped implies that there is something wrong with us. There is nothing wrong with me. I'm just as damn beautiful as you are. And again, saying that we are 'heterosexually made' takes heterosexuality as the default standard and problematizes anything that is non-heterosexual.

For someone who talks a lot about beauty and joy on these forums, I really do hope that you understand what I am saying because I'd hate for you to shut your self off from on my own beauty and joy over something as silly as my sexual orientation. Do you understand?

Feel free to PM me if you feel more comfortable talking in private.

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

There's no such thing as "make", or force. If you would be successful in returning to how you were heterosexually made, it's called being helped/guided... in healing yourself. 'Regress to cause...hypnosis', amongst others. It needs someone who knows what they are doing. - But yes, you can Change!

[Cado]

Originally Posted by votoshka

+1 !! Reading that sort of stuff makes me nauseous... I think it's awful to suggest to a homosexual person that they were "heterosexually made" and can be "healed". I also don't think that belongs on a personal development forum...

I completely agree. I understand Steve's reasoning but this **** is getting ridiculous. Sexual malleability is a fascinating topic but nobody needs to be "fixed" and suggesting there is something wrong with it is disgusting.

[Cado]

I'd also point out that the rules state racism, sexism, etc. are not allowed within the forums. Clearly that is not the case, so at the very least I'd ask for that to be removed or for Steve to give the go ahead for the mods to enforce it.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Sk8joyful:
I identify as homosexual and I am not in need of healing. I'm a perfectly healthy adult woman mentally, spiritually and physically.
I just like other women. Can you see how your choice of words can be offensive? Saying that one is able to be helped implies that there is something wrong with us. There is nothing wrong with me. I'm just as damn beautiful as you are.
And again, saying that we are 'heterosexually made' takes heterosexuality as the default standard and problematizes anything that is non-heterosexual.

Hi there friend,
Apparently there was some mis-understanding here. Was this thread, a split-off... from another thread? - because what made me respond as I did, was this word MALLABLE - iow, was someone asking IF 'sexual-orientation' could be changed.
Having participated in forums, including christian-forums, where christians became comfuzled (as they are about so many other things), re being able to change their sexual-orientation, and informing them that when they are ready for change, YES, they can - from this too I also wrote my response here.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

For someone who talks a lot about beauty and joy
on these forums,
I really do hope that you understand what I am saying
because I'd hate for you to shut your self off from on my own beauty and joy
over something as silly as my sexual orientation. Do you understand?

I'm just as damn beautiful as you are.

I do believe I understand that you are saying that GOD created EACH of us 'beautiful'
It wouldn't occur to God to play favorites, so He is no respector of persons, intentionally.
He loves us all EQUALLY. And too, he counseled: "Judge NOT; just love..." thus
I try to live this to the best of my ability.
And I also like other women, just not sexually. To me, you are all too Beautiful. ok?

Translating this behaviorally into this thread: when we Accept one another as we are:
1. it is OK for me believe that heterosexuality is the default standard,
2. while also accepting that others could want a different life.
So long as I don't harm/hurt myself & others, AND
you don't harm/hurt yourself & others, is this Standard acceptable?

[elinunez]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Mod note: split thread from Why is it only getting harder?


This is probably true. I've often felt that way about my heterosexuality. I think if I really cared to, I could learn how to feel lust for men. I just don't care to. No reason to think it can't work the same the other way around.

Hello, I'm sorry to intrude on your convo. I agree with what you said. It does depend on wheather it's something you want to do. It can be as simple as that but if you have the desire. If the desire or want isn't there then why bother? I have also thought this of women, but never had the actual want as well... and I'm apologizing because I'm new here to this site and have no idea how to start threads :/ does anyone mind telling me how? I would much appriciate it.

[ZephyrusX]

Yes, more or less. Though I wouldn't use the term God.

I'll think about what you said and respond more meaningfully tomorrow. When I said it was early Friday here, it is actually quite late.

Thanks for responding. I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

I do believe I understand that you are saying that GOD created EACH of us 'beautiful'

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Aahh, so what do you suggest?
ECT? Exodus ministries?

No, I am profoundly against harming/hurting people.

When a medical-student graduated, until more recently they used to take their Oath, this one: FIRST (notice the ordinal placement) "FIRST, do NO harm" seriously.

That all changed, when doctors replaced God, with themselves, &
they decided they can do as they please: including silencing, poisoning, electrocuting, drugging, butchering, etc.

Is that what you asked?

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Annie Zero

I'm this close to saying that this sort of thing should be forbidden on these forums.

Are you saying your lifestyle should be the only Acceptable one; so all others should be "forbidden"??

Originally Posted by Annie Zero

It's disgusting and vile, and entirely contrary to the subject's personal development.

And don't think that your "nice" tone is helping.

ok, I missed that. What subject?

Originally Posted by Annie Zero

Why does a gay person need "healing"? - don't fix it if it ain't broken.

This thread contained the words "MALLABLE (sex)preference", &
it was this plus the previous thing I mentioned, that drew forth my response.

And yes, I quite agree: don't fix what ain't broken.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Cado

Sexual malleability is a fascinating topic
but
nobody needs to be "fixed" and suggesting
there is something wrong with it is disgusting.

Great! that you also found 'Sexual malleability' a fascinating topic, as people don't need to exist 'static' but can change, and (not disgusting), this ability is exhilarating to people who DO want to change

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Cado

I'd also point out that the rules state racism, sexism, etc. are not allowed within the forums. Clearly that is not the case,
so at the very least I'd ask for that to be removed or
for Steve to give the go ahead for the mods to enforce it.

First, we are to respond ON-topic, right?
Is the topic here "sexual-preference malleability"? to this I responded.

Where was there any "racism, or sexism"? - except in other's responses,
which judged Heterosexuality as disgusting? - that would be sexist, yes? &
Feeding... previous emotional responses, with more sexism, would compound the sexism, correct?

Please explain your response, if you would. Thank you.

[supertom]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Great! that you also found 'Sexual malleability' a fascinating topic, as people don't need to exist 'static' but can change, and (not disgusting), this ability is exhilarating to people who DO want to change

I think Sexual malleability is a interesting topic, I don't believe I've ever thought about, i think the ability increase sexual variety is very cool I'm not sure how one would go about it but wouldn't the strong desire to be sexually attracted to ? auto pilot the eventual attraction. I don't think you would have to force it just redirect your focus.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

First, we are to respond ON-topic, right?
Is the topic here "sexual-preference malleability"? to this I responded.

Where was there any "racism, or sexism"? - except in other's responses,
which judged Heterosexuality as disgusting? - that would be sexist, yes? &
Feeding... previous emotional responses, with more sexism, would compound the sexism, correct?

Please explain your response, if you would. Thank you.

I think the way you worded it made it seem to everybody here like you were saying that people who are into same sex relations are in need of fixing, as though there is something broken or wrong with them.

Perhaps you could have worded it better,eh?

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I think the way you worded it
made it seem to everybody here like you were saying
that people who are into same sex relations are in need of fixing,
as though there is something broken or wrong with them.

Perhaps you could have worded it better,eh?

Like I said already several times now, i responded to the title of this thread, plus the fact that there ARE certain Individuals who would like very much to live & love Heterosexually, if only someone were to Assure them that in fact they can... Change.

(But so long as all they meet, are social-agendas insistant
"No you fool, your sexual-training was in your genes,
so you were born that way, meaning you CAN"T change");
these poor people are continually fed a LIE. - And
since this thread here was stated as a question I responded in the Affirmative...

Now after several rude responses,
I alerted some of these people to read here, and
yes they confirmed that sorry LIES are all they get; so all the more reason for them to be Assured,
that in fact each person has the POWER TO CHANGE - Steve's site is about positive personal DEVELOPMENT, yes?

[pyrogen]

This is actually the danger of the fluidity concept.

While it's true that people may shift somewhat *over a lifetime*, it's usually not a wild shift. It may in fact only be a slight shift. The person's observable behavior also may not reflect their actual sexuality.

Take me, for example. I shifted from bi to gay, not straight to gay. It may look *to the outside* that I shifted from totally straight to totally gay, because I exclusively had boyfriends up until my ex-girlfriend.

But no, actually, I still liked women, and even somewhat more than men. I shifted from about a Kinsey 4 to a Kinsey 5. From the outside, it looks like a shift from a 1 to a 6. I will tend to portray myself as a 6 to most people because otherwise, I have to defend my orientation against people who think that there's still a slight hope that I might come home with a nice Jewish boy. And 5 does not even remotely mean that. It just means that I think a few different Hollywood stars (Jeremy Renner, anyone? Rrowr!) are hot - but this is perhaps like mostly-straight women who think they are bi because they find that some women are aesthetically beautiful. I have even been romantically attracted to men in the past, but the physical part never quite clicked and I never knew why until I was with a woman partner... not for lack of many, many times of trying to make it work, and going from sometimes thinking I simply had the wrong lover and sometimes thinking there was something wrong with ME. Then one day, everything *worked*. But trying to be with my non-default gender is like trying to (pardon the expression) put a square peg into a round hole, and *nothing can change that*.

Know what made me ultimately realize I was not bi? This board - there was a discussion about fellatio. And I was perhaps the only woman there who did not find the thought of penis remotely stimulating. Here were a bunch of women discussing the virtues of the male anatomy, and the thought did nothing for me, nor has it ever - I never used to imagine that fellatio was something any woman actually LIKED, it's just something they did to please their partner.

So yes, fluidity does exist. But I don't think it's as extreme as people are imagining. We shift a LITTLE, not a LOT. The shift is just as much in our SELF AWARENESS as in our sexuality.

To someone (particularly a woman, because our arousal can be hidden and is also very subject to our emotional states) who is not so self-aware, they may not even know they lean a particular way. Then one day, they gain that awareness, and it clicks into place. This is not really a change in sexuality.

And fluidity is also misleading in that it can lead the wrong people to believe that one's sexual orientation can actually be changed.

Women in general are more fluid than men - but again this does NOT mean that we will suddenly convince ourselves (and successfully) to fall for men when previously we liked only women, or vice versa. It more often means that we are more likely to go outside of "type" than are men, perhaps because some of us (like me) are emotionally aroused before the sexual arousal enters the picture. Some women are most attracted to the person with whom they are in love, and some simply have a broad range of acceptable types. Many women fall in love with and marry someone who wasn't initially "their type". I have slowly been growing to like a woman who is a vastly different type than the previous woman I liked, but when I like someone, *that person's type* is what I like for the time being. You never know. At the moment, I like fuller figured women, whereas earlier in the year, I liked tight little athletes.

Most men I know, however, seem to be very fixed in what arouses them, and are likely to be fixed over the course of their lifetime. Some remain fixed on the age which they first found attractive (which means that whether their first arousal experience was over a 16 year old or over a 40 year old teacher, they may stay "stuck" on that age). Some are so fixed on specific attributes that they have fetishes. And yes, statistically, men do have more fetishes.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by supertom

I think Sexual malleability is a interesting topic

Read my previous response
re how increasingly! many FIX themselves, until they stay stuck FIXED,
by telling each other "I was born x, y, & z; so I CAN'T change." -
Nonsense!
Considering: how we EACH have multiple trillions of UNdifferentiated & Pluripotent stemcells, coupled to their multiple trillions of variable Gene-expressions... Therefore, you know you have nigh endless CHANGE possibilities...
.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

This is actually the danger of the fluidity concept.

people may shift somewhat *over a lifetime*, it's usually not a wild shift. So yes, fluidity does exist.
But I don't think
it's as extreme as people are imagining. We shift a LITTLE, not a LOT.

We're not talking about just imagining, a little.

We're talking about a Fundamental change. - Hence
my comments about "skillful abilities" in my 1st. post.

[Annie Zero]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Are you saying your lifestyle should be the only Acceptable one; so all others should be "forbidden"??

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Everybody who is not a pansexual genderqueer hermit is mentally ill or was abused as a child and needs to turn to my favorite god (Anubis?) to be HEALED from their ungodly ways.

TBH, I greatly value modesty and tradition, and I'm extremely uninterested and unimpressed by most other people's sexual escapades and fantasies/attractions (and I frown upon the idea of "gay pride").

But people who feel differently are entirely acceptable, as long as public spaces and institutions remain as neutral as humanly possible (so different people of the same location/culture can coexist).

What should be "forbidden" on these forums is manipulating others into feelings bad about themselves or ashamed of aspects of themselves that they can't change. (And notice I said [in that post] "I'm this close to saying that--" -- I personally wouldn't forbid anything, I'm big on free speech and open discussion. )

You keep making flowery posts about ~~*CHANGE*~, and an easily influenced gay youngster could be reading this and start to believe that s/he's such a failure for not being able to change and be "normal" even though it's supposed to be ~so simple~. Watch what you're saying, fod god's sake. Is it rooted in reality? Anecdotal evidence about bi-/pansexual people who "turned" straight, or gay people who started repressing their sexuality -- is not enough to be confidently saying that any gay person can become straight if he only tried. This sort of thinking causes grief to so many people.

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

ok, I missed that. What subject?

The person. I think the topic was about a specific person to begin with, s/he's the subject. Asserting as a premise that the subject needs to be healed from something that isn't an illness, is potentially harmful for them, no matter how nicely and sweetly you phrase it.

Important:

Originally Posted by pyrogen

So yes, fluidity does exist. But I don't think it's as extreme as people are imagining. We shift a LITTLE, not a LOT. The shift is just as much in our SELF AWARENESS as in our sexuality.

And fluidity is also misleading in that it can lead the wrong people to believe that one's sexual orientation can actually be changed.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Annie Zero

TBH, I greatly value modesty and tradition, and I'm extremely uninterested and unimpressed by most other people's sexual escapades and fantasies/attractions (and I frown upon the idea of "gay pride").

What should be "forbidden" on these forums is
manipulating others into feeling bad about themselves or
ashamed of aspects of themselves that they can't change. (And notice I said
[in that post] "I'm this close to saying that--" -- I personally wouldn't forbid anything, I'm big on free speech and open discussion. )

Good -
OPEN discussions, re the fact that people can when they so choose their sexuality change... is Great!

(No feeling bad, nor failure, nor guilty, nor shameful is acceptable, as part of this process either.
In fact, all that ROT does, is prevent/delay) the Happy-change from becoming reality...

Originally Posted by Annie Zero

an easily influenced gay youngster could be reading this and start to believe it's supposed to be ~so simple~.
Is it rooted in reality?

Yes, it's rooted in reality. But I never said it's
"so simple, that any youngster TRYING it, can do it" -

I specifically said in my 1st. post "being helped/guided... in healing yourself.
'Regress to cause...hypnosis', amongst others. It needs
someone who knows what they are doing. - But yes, you can Change!"

in other words, it requires an adult, with the requisite skill-sets to so help Individuals change...

[lycan]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I think the way you worded it made it seem to everybody here like you were saying that people who are into same sex relations are in need of fixing, as though there is something broken or wrong with them.

Perhaps you could have worded it better,eh?

Calling homosexuals "gay" is highly misleading. Most of the time, homosexuality causes suffering, not joy. You could say this is because society is evil or whatever, it doesn't matter, we have to focus on individuals, not society. There are A LOT of people who think they "are" gay, who don't want to "be" gay, but are constantly told that's just who they are and they can't change by those who decided they don't want to change and need a way to justify their choice to a society that in general doesn't like homosexuality. For those people, homosexuality is a disease which they wish cured, but instead people beat them over the head with the self-acceptance mantra. For those who don't want to change, it is not a disease, though it is certainly not the default natural orientation. That is what disease means.

I think it's more harmful to tell young teens that they are homosexuals just because they are experiencing homosexuality than it is to tell them they can be whatever they want to be.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by lycan

Calling homosexuals "gay" is highly misleading. Most of the time, homosexuality causes suffering, not joy. You could say this is because society is evil or whatever, it doesn't matter, we have to focus on individuals, not society. There are A LOT of people who think they "are" gay, who don't want to "be" gay, but are constantly told that's just who they are and they can't change by those who decided they don't want to change and need a way to justify their choice to a society that in general doesn't like homosexuality. For those people, homosexuality is a disease which they wish cured, but instead people beat them over the head with the self-acceptance mantra. For those who don't want to change, it is not a disease, though it is certainly not the default natural orientation. That is what disease means.

Well, I told you before you had a political agenda. Regardless of whether or not this stems from a political agenda, which it highly resembles, it's extremely foolish for you to be writing these things and takes a lot away from your credibility. See, you don't believe in credibility. You think we should all just take you at your word. Lame, lame, lame. If you actually believed in credibility, you wouldn't be coming up with these ridiculous notions and then proclaiming them to the world as truth, unless you were in denial due to a political agenda.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Well, I told you before you had a political agenda. Regardless of whether or not this stems from a political agenda, which it highly resembles,

What political agenda? I am a libertarian with regards to domestic policy and a conservative/neo-conservative with regards to foreign policy. I dislike the political activism imposing homosexuality, but I have zero interest in any sort of policy regarding it. As far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't be any reference to it in any law at all. It's not relevant to politics.

it's extremely foolish for you to be writing these things

It is not. Why? Because I know them to be true.

If you actually believed in credibility, you wouldn't be coming up with these ridiculous notions and then proclaiming them to the world as truth, unless you were in denial due to a political agenda.

Pot... kettle... black?


People have a hard time losing weight. Many are convinced it's impossible. That doesn't make it true... except for them. For them, it is impossible.

[Annie Zero]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Good -
OPEN discussions, re the fact that people can when they so choose their sexuality change... is Great!

Now you're just being stubborn. ("Fact"? Seriously?)

And what kind of "choosing" are we talking about here? Surely I could choose to ignore and forget and not act on same-sex attractions, and only go for opposite sex attraction.

But what about those people that aren't bisexual/pansexual? If they're ardent Christians or for some other reason terribly homophobic (or live in a homophobic family/society), I would understand that they would have enough motivation and willpower to "choose" to change. But can they actually do it? I've yet to see convincing proof.

Yes, people can choose how they act, no one is forced by their nature to go and have sex with anyone. But hopefully you've noticed someone's orientation is not defined by who they have sex with in actuality.

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

(No feeling bad, nor failure, nor guilty, nor shameful is acceptable, as part of this process either.

Whatever your intentions are, that^ sort of thing is a very potential side-effect of your preaching.

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

In fact, all that ROT does, is prevent/delay) the Happy-change from becoming reality...

(Can someone translate this for me? I can only understand normal English as I was taught in school.)

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Yes, it's rooted in reality. But I never said it's
"so simple, that any youngster TRYING it, can do it" -

Well, at this point both of us would need to start cranking out some real evidence for this conversation to continue properly. But I'm sure this debate has already been had a million times by people more invested in the topic.

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

I specifically said in my 1st. post "being helped/guided... in healing yourself.
'Regress to cause...hypnosis', amongst others. It needs
someone who knows what they are doing. - But yes, you can Change!"

in other words, it requires an adult, with the requisite skill-sets to so help Individuals change...

That's the scary part; I'm imagining some uber enthusiastic Christian man using his long-time expertise in manipulating and brainwashing people, on some young and insecure unsuspecting innocent.

I doubt it's easy to be healed after a professional has gone in-depth and messed with your default wiring.

Originally Posted by lycan

Most of the time, homosexuality causes suffering, not joy. You could say this is because society is evil or whatever, it doesn't matter,

Actually that's exactly what matters.

Originally Posted by lycan

I think it's more harmful to tell young teens that they are homosexuals just because they are experiencing homosexuality than it is to tell them they can be whatever they want to be.

Except for how this doesn't actually happen.

In the general LGBT+ communities, people are very big on self-identification, it's told over and over that nobody else can determine someone's sexuality. People are encouraged to explore their own feelings, and being inbetween or questioning is perfectly acceptable.