[ADULT] Is sexual preference malleable?

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Well, your theory isn't scientific. It's pure speculation. Who would put that much effort into pure speculation?

I value science but only to a degree-there are lots of holes in its knowledge and I don't see the value in lingering in theory when I could create my own hypothesis and dive in. I am, in many ways, my own guinea pig.

Plus, mainstream science and psychology can only account for the general-the extraordinary cases, or black swans, are either elements which are at first overlooked or they come from visionaries who took action before the research had been done.

I can imagine someone so dedicated to self experimentation that they flip their orientation, or at least alter their psychological responses to sex and gender. I can imagine it because I've met people crazy enough to attempt something like it. I'm that kind of crazy, too, I just don't consider that to be worth my while. I eagerly await the story of someone who feels otherwise.

[Cado]

Though I would add, as far as changing a psychological response, that is firmly rooted in science, no? The exact degree to which nature or nurture impacts us is still up for debate, but it's well known that conditioning has some profound effects and can easily change our response to something. If you progress far enough to start messing with the circuitry the changes you can create in yourself are pretty immense.

In my earlier post, I talked about circumventing or creating physical attraction by focusing on emotion, and I went there because I've applied the same principle to other things and I imagine it'd be an essential element in a situation like this. I had no innate enjoyment of physical activity and I'm still not that big on it but the associated highs as well as various triggers I've built into myself have made it so the activity is associated with that and I can get over any humps I run into. With sexuality it would be magnitudes more difficult, that much is clear without any first-hand experimentation, but I really think that someone dedicated enough could pull off a switch-or at least convince themselves so thoroughly that it would be impossible to tell the difference without rigorous scientific and psychological study on the person.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

I don't think that female sexuality can be measured by the same yardstick as male sexuality. We have different biological realities with which to grapple.

It is true that women are somewhat hardwired to seek feminine features while least fertile, and masculine features while most fertile. This does not necessarily manifest into homosexuality. If it did, all women would alternate between being gay and straight. The hormonal changes alter one's associations by providing a different memory pathway, and therefore the personality.

Sexual orientation is mostly produced by one's perception of their identity. It starts in childhood as the child looks at the world and begins to model those he sees around him. If you molest a boy, odds are high that he will be gay as an adult. It only seems like an impossible thing to change because we have a primitive understanding of psychology. Men's desires for women, and women's desires for men, are highly motivated by a sense of competition, that is, they are less about sensory gratification than they are self-esteem boosts. If you change the self-esteem structure, half the work is done.

[bluestar]

Originally Posted by lycan

You're saying some people have this ability, and others do not? That's nonsense. Sexual preference is not a fixed physical attribute. It is the way a person's brain is wired. The brain has plasticity. It can be molded. But first, you have to flip the permission switch. You have to give yourself permission to be sexually attracted to X. This is why it's hard for a lot of straight people, as well as gay people. They think it would be wrong to do so. Gay people, to be specific, think if they give themselves permission to be straight they are "rejecting" their previous gayness, judging themselves, and giving in to the demands/viewpoint of others.




It does once the person stops self-judgement.

Well, you guys....whatever...(shrug)

[lycan]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

This is not a process of conscious will.

Walking is not a process of conscious will if a person is not conscious of it. That doesn't mean you can't stop walking, look around, and change direction.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by Cado

I value science but only to a degree-there are lots of holes in its knowledge and I don't see the value in lingering in theory when I could create my own hypothesis and dive in. I am, in many ways, my own guinea pig.

Plus, mainstream science and psychology can only account for the general-the extraordinary cases, or black swans, are either elements which are at first overlooked or they come from visionaries who took action before the research had been done.

I can imagine someone so dedicated to self experimentation that they flip their orientation, or at least alter their psychological responses to sex and gender. I can imagine it because I've met people crazy enough to attempt something like it. I'm that kind of crazy, too, I just don't consider that to be worth my while. I eagerly await the story of someone who feels otherwise.

That's fair enough, but I don't think it would be fair to start advocating everyone can change their orientation just because a few people did it. Especially when the only thing we can go on is someone's word about who they're attracted to, and that means different things to different people.

Personally, I am one of those people open to experimentation, which I have certainly tried before, as have most gay people. But I reject people telling based on pure speculation what i can change about my orientation.

[agsags]

Lycan, I do not disagree with you in principle (even though deep down I am an essentialist), however I think you vastly over-estimate the ease of changing something so deep as sexual orientation. I am not talking about more superficial sexual attraction or training yourself to enjoy sex, but about deeper "orientation".

I am curious as to what a heterosexual man can do to develop his attraction towards men?

[Drew78]

Regardless of whether or not you can change your orientation, what is the purpose of that?

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by lycan

It is true that women are somewhat hardwired to seek feminine features while least fertile, and masculine features while most fertile. This does not necessarily manifest into homosexuality. If it did, all women would alternate between being gay and straight. The hormonal changes alter one's associations by providing a different memory pathway, and therefore the personality.

Sexual orientation is mostly produced by one's perception of their identity. It starts in childhood as the child looks at the world and begins to model those he sees around him. If you molest a boy, odds are high that he will be gay as an adult. It only seems like an impossible thing to change because we have a primitive understanding of psychology. Men's desires for women, and women's desires for men, are highly motivated by a sense of competition, that is, they are less about sensory gratification than they are self-esteem boosts. If you change the self-esteem structure, half the work is done.

This is not about ALL WOMEN! Not all women have bisexual leanings, or are attracted to other women. It has been shown that STRAIGHT women are more attracted to masculine men at some stages of their cycle, and less masculine men at others. However, for a bisexual woman, it seems quite possible that she'd be more attracted to men at some parts of her cycle, and women at others. Why? Errm because she's attracted to BOTH GENDERS.

Oh, and the studies done on women's sexual preference weren't so much for "feminine features" in men, more "more masculine" versus "less masculine" which doesn't equate to "feminine". And nobody's saying that this manifests into homosexuality .

And as for sexual orientation having anything to do with a perception of one's identity...that makes little sense to me either. I have seen gay guys who were raised to be real "men's men" type of fellas, and I've seen lesbians who were raised to be "little princesses". Surely, being homosexual wouldn't really figure into either of those identities?? When I was a little girl, I wanted to be a boy, but it sure as heck didn't make me gay.

Oh, and for the record I doubt I'd experience a "self esteem boost" if a woman was attracted to me, any more than I would if a guy I had no interest in was. For me to be attracted to a man, there needs to be some "sensory gratification". Although, that being said, if a really hot man was attracted to me I would certainly experience a self esteem boost as a result .

I think you tend to make some really big generalisations about people's sexuality. You can't lump all women together, any more than you can lump all men together. I would be very interested if you can provide any proof that people have managed to successfully change their sexual orientation (and I mean CHANGE IT, I don't mean people who have been through some sort of "deprogramming" rubbish and then come out "straight" on the other side, and are completely, totally utterly miserable because they're not actually straight at all but they're damn well going to do their darndest to pretend they are).

[lycan]

Originally Posted by votoshka

Oh, and the studies done on women's sexual preference weren't so much for "feminine features" in men, more "more masculine" versus "less masculine" which doesn't equate to "feminine". And nobody's saying that this manifests into homosexuality .

If you look at someone, the way your mind recognizes that person as male or female is by checking for a pattern. Certain traits are feminine and other traits are masculine. Facial hair for example is a typical male trait. There are many other, more subtle ones. Yes, less masculine does equate to more feminine. This does manifests into homosexuality, given the right conditions. It just doesn't have to necessarily do so.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by votoshka

And as for sexual orientation having anything to do with a perception of one's identity...that makes little sense to me either. I have seen gay guys who were raised to be real "men's men" type of fellas, and I've seen lesbians who were raised to be "little princesses". Surely, being homosexual wouldn't really figure into either of those identities?? When I was a little girl, I wanted to be a boy, but it sure as heck didn't make me gay.

That is exactly what a gay guy is, a "men's man". You seem to be assuming that a gay man is necessarily a feminine man, and a gay woman a masculine one. That is not the case. A gay man may be excessively masculine and a gay woman excessively feminine. Or such distinctions can be more or less irrelevant to the person's sexuality. The issue in terms of sense of identity and self-esteem is not that simplistic.

For me to be attracted to a man, there needs to be some "sensory gratification". Although, that being said, if a really hot man was attracted to me I would certainly experience a self esteem boost as a result .

That is exactly what makes a particular man "hot". He is the kind of person you derive self-esteem from. If that kind of person rejects you, your self-esteem gets crushed. If that kind of person seeks you, your self-esteem gets validated.

I think you tend to make some really big generalisations about people's sexuality. You can't lump all women together, any more than you can lump all men together.

Yes, actually, you can. We are all human. That means we all operate in essentially the same way. The details change, but not the structure.

I would be very interested if you can provide any proof that people have managed to successfully change their sexual orientation (and I mean CHANGE IT, I don't mean people who have been through some sort of "deprogramming" rubbish and then come out "straight" on the other side, and are completely, totally utterly miserable because they're not actually straight at all but they're damn well going to do their darndest to pretend they are).

This is an extremely touchy subject. Because of how deeply sexuality is tied to self-esteem, there are layers upon layer upon layers of protection mechanisms involved. It is not that the change itself is hard, it's that nobody wants to change. If you try to force them to, their sense of self-esteem compels them to rebel. It is not something people are at all interested in. It is however possible. Should anyone change? That is for each person to decide. How? It depends on where the person is.

[Soujiro]

Everything you've said, Lycan, is an assumption. Your assumption is that one's sexuality is due to conditioning. It's YOUR assumption, nothing more nothing less.

Your assumption implies that everyone's sexuality is the same, Bi, and "our" preferences are actually not ours, but rather are what we've been conditioned to believe. Your claim comes off as a "I know more about you than you know about yourself" statement, which is utterly ridiculous.

You seem to be confusing "conditioning" with "natural" preference.

I like the smell of cinnamon, but I do not like the taste. The first time I tasted cinnamon was when I was little. I also remember spitting the food that was in my mouth out and thinking "Yuck that was disgusting". The people around me gave me that look like "how can you not like cinnamon?". By your claim, me not liking cinnamon is due to conditioning. If I overcome that conditioning, then I can like it. After all, as you claimed, since there are people who like cinnamon, I too can like it as well. I just have to overcome that conditioning. My first experience with cinnamon was 14yrs ago, and now at age 24 I can tell you that I still don't like it. 20yrs from now I still wont.

Lol, lemme guess you're gonna tell me that my brain can be wired to like cinnamon?

There are natural "tendencies/preferences" that we have. Some people hate the smell of flowers. Some people like musky scents. Some people are more inclined to "introversion"/"extroversion" (I'm an "introvert". I can behave like an "extrovert", but my "instincts/preferences" always lean towards "introversion"). Some people love the winter, others summer (I personally hate the cold). Some want dogs/cats/lizards/snakes/etc as pets, while some have a natural fear of animals in general (my mom almost has a phobia for animals). I prefer rabbits/guinea pigs over dogs/cats (Why is that? I don't know. I've always liked rabbits over dogs/cats). Some people are attracted to men, women, or both.

I can force myself to eat cinnamon, and tell you "I love it" all day regardless of how bad it taste in my mouth. I can go out partying/window shopping/etc all day and be the most extroverted person you've ever seen. I can force myself to sleep around with men. Does that mean that all my preferences came to be because of conditioning? Ofcourse not. I can force myself to do the things above, while I cry deep inside knowing I'm doing things I'd rather not.

You are confusing natural tendencies/preferences for conditioning.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by agsags

I am curious as to what a heterosexual man can do to develop his attraction towards men?

Well, for one, he can watch straight porn. This is an inherently gay activity (to derive pleasure from watching another man having sex). Men ignore the gayness of porn by projecting their identity into the man in the scene. They may strengthen the gayness of porn by either projecting their identity into the woman, or by becoming aware of what they are, in fact, doing (pleasuring themselves to the sight of a naked man's body while he has sex with a woman). However, if they become aware of that, they may develop a repulsion towards porn in an attempt to protect their self-esteem.

[Cochonette]

I have lost all interest in this discussion.

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

I have lost all interest in this discussion.

Me too

Wanna go to the movies? You pick one

[Soujiro]

Originally Posted by lycan

If you look at someone, the way your mind recognizes that person as male or female is by checking for a pattern. Certain traits are feminine and other traits are masculine. Facial hair for example is a typical male trait. There are many other, more subtle ones. Yes, less masculine does equate to more feminine. This does manifests into homosexuality, given the right conditions. It just doesn't have to necessarily do so.

I couldn't disagree more. The way you recognize someone as male or female is by how they look physically. Whether someone is physically male or female has nothing to do with femininity/masculinity. Simply looking at them is enough.

I personally don't like the words "feminine/masculine" cause not only are they labels, but they also lead us into linking those terms to certain behavioral traits. Why can't people just act the way the want without being called "feminine/masculine".

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Soujiro

I couldn't disagree more. The way you recognize someone as male or female is by how they look physically.

That is what I mean. There are some indicators of masculinity/femininity that are behavioral, but I was talking about physical indicators (beyond the most obvious one).

[lycan]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Me too

Wanna go to the movies? You pick one

See, we fixed your and Cocho's problem already. Am I awesome or what?

[VinceG]

Heh, I lost interest in the discussion the second I posted that comment. When the mods moved the thread over, it made it look like I wanted the discussion!

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

That's fair enough, but I don't think it would be fair to start advocating everyone can change their orientation just because a few people did it. Especially when the only thing we can go on is someone's word about who they're attracted to, and that means different things to different people.

Personally, I am one of those people open to experimentation, which I have certainly tried before, as have most gay people. But I reject people telling based on pure speculation what i can change about my orientation.

That's exactly why I'm not advocating it. Whether or not it's possible it doesn't mean everyone -should- fit into an established norm, it would just be an incredibly interesting experiment.

[hark]

Can't speak for everyone, but I can change my sexual preferences. So it's kind of irritating that the thing to say nowadays is that it's impossible for everyone, just because it's "impossible" for some or even most.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by lycan

If you look at someone, the way your mind recognizes that person as male or female is by checking for a pattern. Certain traits are feminine and other traits are masculine. Facial hair for example is a typical male trait. There are many other, more subtle ones. Yes, less masculine does equate to more feminine. This does manifests into homosexuality, given the right conditions. It just doesn't have to necessarily do so.

Umm...so guys who are clean shaven are more likely to be gay??

Originally Posted by lycan

That is exactly what a gay guy is, a "men's man". You seem to be assuming that a gay man is necessarily a feminine man, and a gay woman a masculine one. That is not the case. A gay man may be excessively masculine and a gay woman excessively feminine. Or such distinctions can be more or less irrelevant to the person's sexuality. The issue in terms of sense of identity and self-esteem is not that simplistic.

Actually, I'm not suggesting that at all. I have known gay guys who are masculine and gay guys who are more feminine, and same for lesbians. I was saying that just because someone has a typically "straight" upbringing (whatever the heck that is) doesn't mean they'll turn out straight. You seemed to be implying that people became homosexual due to some sort of environmental factors, and I was simply saying that I think this is BS because homosexuals come from all walks of life.

Originally Posted by hark

Can't speak for everyone, but I can change my sexual preferences. So it's kind of irritating that the thing to say nowadays is that it's impossible for everyone, just because it's "impossible" for some or even most.

This is interesting, but I would assume that if you can change your preferences it's because your sexuality isn't quite as fixed as it is for others?

I don't mean to imply that everyone's the same...because obviously we're not, and many people do experience some sexual fluidity, but I do think it is ridiculous to suggest that a lesbian just "become" straight!

[Annie Zero]

Originally Posted by lycan

If it did, all women would alternate between being gay and straight.

I do! Though I haven't really taken notes on the timing.

Originally Posted by lycan

Sexual orientation is mostly produced by one's perception of their identity.

[citation needed]

Originally Posted by lycan

If you molest a boy, odds are high that he will be gay as an adult.

[citation needed]

lycan reminds me of someone I knew; a Christian dude who swung both ways and assumed everyone else did too and that they can choose as simply as he can to ignore their same-sex attractions and go for the opposite-sex attraction.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by votoshka

Umm...so guys who are clean shaven are more likely to be gay??

Actually, I'm not suggesting that at all. I have known gay guys who are masculine and gay guys who are more feminine, and same for lesbians. I was saying that just because someone has a typically "straight" upbringing (whatever the heck that is) doesn't mean they'll turn out straight. You seemed to be implying that people became homosexual due to some sort of environmental factors, and I was simply saying that I think this is BS because homosexuals come from all walks of life.

People do become gay (and straight) due to environmental factors BUT it is obviously not as simple as that. Some environmental factors like childhood abuse do have a HUGE impact, but even that can't determine, on its own, how a person turns out. It is likely that genetic/biological factors contribute to this by providing certain automatic triggers to environmental factors that leans the person towards developing in a certain direction. It is possible that in homosexuals, the heterosexual automatic triggers may be weaker, or homosexual triggers may be stronger, but I know of no evidence of this. Regardless, there is no biological "thing" that makes a person gay or straight. It is just a habit that has been formed in their thinking process. Just like you learned to read, you learned to associate sexual attraction to a particular gender and its features.

but I do think it is ridiculous to suggest that a lesbian just "become" straight!

It is not. Also, it seems pyro identifies herself as bisexual.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Annie Zero

[citation needed]

Isn't it funny how social knowledge works? I don't need citations because I'm talking about reality here. Anyone who bothers to, can easily find this to be true. It makes no difference to me if you believe it or not. Knowing something about reality that you do not gives me an advantage over you.

lycan reminds me of someone I knew; a Christian dude who swung both ways and assumed everyone else did too and that they can choose as simply as he can to ignore their same-sex attractions and go for the opposite-sex attraction.

You are making a lot of assumptions.

[craftyjake]

Thought I'd throw my two cents in here.

Recent anecdotes from men have demonstrated a surprisingly common pattern of sexual tastes becoming morphed after overexposure to more "normal" porn. For example, many hetero guys find themselves moving from jailbait to female bodybuilders to trannies to animals, and the like-- from one extreme to another more extreme field. Not sure how this directly relates to the malleability of sexual orientation, but interesting nonetheless.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by craftyjake

more "normal" porn.

What does that mean?

[hark]

Originally Posted by votoshka

This is interesting, but I would assume that if you can change your preferences it's because your sexuality isn't quite as fixed as it is for others?

Dunno. Don't keep track of other people's sexuality.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by craftyjake

Thought I'd throw my two cents in here.

Recent anecdotes from men have demonstrated a surprisingly common pattern of sexual tastes becoming morphed after overexposure to more "normal" porn. For example, many hetero guys find themselves moving from jailbait to female bodybuilders to trannies to animals, and the like-- from one extreme to another more extreme field. Not sure how this directly relates to the malleability of sexual orientation, but interesting nonetheless.

Errm "normal" porn? I didn't think normal porn included animals...

[pyrogen]

Actually, lycan, I did identify as bisexual for most of my adult life, but now am pretty reliably oriented toward women. Female sexual fluidity and all. However, fluidity is not malleability. Again, fluidity refers to the way in which some (not all and possibly not most) women's sexual preferences may shift -over a lifetime-, not overnight and it does not mean we necessarily get any conscious choice over it.

(for the information of anyone else, my orientation shifted after I actually had a female lover. It just took me a year after the breakup to acknowledge this shift. This might be information one may take into consideration if they are in a relationship with a man and considering experimenting with women. Just be aware. Maybe it's best to experiment when one is between relationships, unless your orientation toward men and your relationship with your partner is strong enough to begin with.)

Originally Posted by lycan

People do become gay (and straight) due to environmental factors BUT it is obviously not as simple as that. Some environmental factors like childhood abuse do have a HUGE impact, but even that can't determine, on its own, how a person turns out. It is likely that genetic/biological factors contribute to this by providing certain automatic triggers to environmental factors that leans the person towards developing in a certain direction. It is possible that in homosexuals, the heterosexual automatic triggers may be weaker, or homosexual triggers may be stronger, but I know of no evidence of this. Regardless, there is no biological "thing" that makes a person gay or straight. It is just a habit that has been formed in their thinking process. Just like you learned to read, you learned to associate sexual attraction to a particular gender and its features.




It is not. Also, it seems pyro identifies herself as bisexual.