Why is it only getting harder?

[pyrogen]

For some reason, my love life has been straight downhill since 22.

Lonely as hell. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a boat that drifts further and further away from shore with each passing year. And all I seem to meet are other lonely people who have been alone for so long that connection is too alien. It's like we whirl around a room full of people like us, then go home and say that there was no one there.

People in my world, lately, have been falling in love like crazy... But the difference between them and me, is that they never forgot how. They were people who date and mate constantly to begin with. They are comfortable with having sex quickly, too. I'm kind of bottled in that respect. I'm not comfortable with sex just for the sake of sex, I have to be romantically attracted to the person.

I find myself avoiding precisely the environments in which I could potentially meet someone, because those environments feel alien and sad to me - seeing people waltzing away together or even talking together... And having no idea how to be part of it. Just seeing people flirting with each other makes me feel depressed sometimes. I'm less lonely at home with my books than I am when I feel like the only alien jn a group of humans.

I know how to be in a relationship with a person who is obsessed with me and a bit crazy. I simply find someone who is interested and talk myself into giving them a chance. I have no idea how to be in anything in the least mutual. I've never been with anyone who I really genuinely liked. AND I'VE BEEN WITH PLENTY OF PEOPLE. I am not inexperienced.

I have no idea how to be with a normal person. Each experience has been worse than the last. I have a kind of sex PTSD at this point because my most recent memories of sex are all of BAD sex. I have not had a good kiss since 22. Each has been worse than the last. My partners seem to be getting more and more unskilled. I am stuck with the reticent and the tentative. With people who are uncomfortable in their very skin. with people who are uncomfortable with being close and who have closed off their sexual centers. What can i do to attract people whose sex and heart chakras aren't shut down?

I dont even want to admit my loneliness anymore because all I hear are the standard platitudes, and frankly, I'm sick of hearing them.

[Criseyde]

*hugs you* I don't have any advice, but I'm sorry you're hurting.

[Cochonette]

I don't know, truth be told. But I have a feeling that a change of environment could do you a lot of good. You seem to be stuck in an environment that's not very conducive to what you want.

[CroMagna]

What exactly are you looking for? A relationship? Good sex? Friendship with people who aren't lonely?

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

What exactly are you looking for? A relationship? Good sex? Friendship with people who aren't lonely?

Friendship would be one thing, but I already have a lot of friends whom I never see. It's like their stars are perpetually not sharing the sky with mine. I am in some bizarre state of universe misalignment.

I want a partner. Every time i have managed to connect with anyone, though, they're just as awkward about it as I am.

I really envy straight women... It seems like lots of women I know are getting fallen-in-love-with, romanced and seduced by noble, heroic and dashing men.

It's ****ing exhausting being gay, and a lot of work.

...and ironically men follow me around like lost puppies.

[OptimistPrime]

The only thing I can suggest is non-attachment to relationships, since that's the only thing that ever lets me feel truly happy when I'm alone, but that might fall under the heading of "standard platitudes" depending on what kind of crowd you roll with.

[Cochonette]

This isn't advice, but just thoughts: All I know is that lately I've somewhat accepted being "alone" / not having a girlfriend or the like, as well as not having a friend to always "be there" for me. I got so tired of feeling myself at the whims of the universe, being "at effect" of whatever other people decide to do with me. As long as I have people to hang out with from time to time and my most trustworthy friend - my laptop - I'm doing okay! Because I can just focus on my other goals and date people with few expectations. At the moment, I just feel entertained by dating. It works well for me because I'm new to it, and it actually serves my other goals right now, not just the other way around. For example, I get such a kick out of being able to give someone a massage or put my arm around a girl when I feel like it. So my goal is to practice massage, or find a girl to put my arm around. Or, I am so dead-set on improving my conversational skills - it is so goddamned entertaining to me - that I enjoy meeting most people (at least those on remotely the same wavelength as me) for the sole purpose of working on conversational skills... add dating to that, and it's extra fun.

Since my last disappointment with a crush got me down, I somehow managed to pick myself back up and grow from that... because I keep thinking, "Who wants to be with a desperate person? And how will I ever be happy when even having a girlfriend is temporary? The suffering will just return, equal in portion to the attached joy." So I am kind of looking at this time now as my chance to let go... realizing that no woman will bring me happiness in and of herself. I have been in love. I have felt like I met the woman of my dreams, the love of my life, before. And that very person was also the source of unfathomable suffering! I'd rather just have a less intense love of myself and my life than go through that suffering ever again. I also hate the way my disappointment manifests in actual interactions with these persons, because it seems so out of my control once I'm there. I'd rather let that relationship stay beautiful, but distant, than to **** it up with fears of abandonment and other nonsense.

[pyrogen]

Cochie,

For some reason, it was easy when I was younger. It gets harder as I get older.

Originally Posted by Cochonette

This isn't advice, but just thoughts: All I know is that lately I've somewhat accepted being "alone" / not having a girlfriend or the like, as well as not having a friend to always "be there" for me. I got so tired of feeling myself at the whims of the universe, being "at effect" of whatever other people decide to do with me. As long as I have people to hang out with from time to time and my most trustworthy friend - my laptop - I'm doing okay! Because I can just focus on my other goals and date people with few expectations. At the moment, I just feel entertained by dating. It works well for me because I'm new to it, and it actually serves my other goals right now, not just the other way around. For example, I get such a kick out of being able to give someone a massage or put my arm around a girl when I feel like it. So my goal is to practice massage, or find a girl to put my arm around. Or, I am so dead-set on improving my conversational skills - it is so goddamned entertaining to me - that I enjoy meeting most people (at least those on remotely the same wavelength as me) for the sole purpose of working on conversational skills... add dating to that, and it's extra fun.

Since my last disappointment with a crush got me down, I somehow managed to pick myself back up and grow from that... because I keep thinking, "Who wants to be with a desperate person? And how will I ever be happy when even having a girlfriend is temporary? The suffering will just return, equal in portion to the attached joy." So I am kind of looking at this time now as my chance to let go... realizing that no woman will bring me happiness in and of herself. I have been in love. I have felt like I met the woman of my dreams, the love of my life, before. And that very person was also the source of unfathomable suffering! I'd rather just have a less intense love of myself and my life than go through that suffering ever again. I also hate the way my disappointment manifests in actual interactions with these persons, because it seems so out of my control once I'm there. I'd rather let that relationship stay beautiful, but distant, than to **** it up with fears of abandonment and other nonsense.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Friendship would be one thing, but I already have a lot of friends whom I never see. It's like their stars are perpetually not sharing the sky with mine. I am in some bizarre state of universe misalignment.

I want a partner. Every time i have managed to connect with anyone, though, they're just as awkward about it as I am.

I really envy straight women... It seems like lots of women I know are getting fallen-in-love-with, romanced and seduced by noble, heroic and dashing men.

It's ****ing exhausting being gay, and a lot of work.

...and ironically men follow me around like lost puppies.

My situation is entirely different, but I relate to what you were saying about sexual PTSD-I was either knee-deep into that after my last relationship or I was right on the verge of it. I was VERY awkward when trying to establish any kind of connection with a woman for a good two-three months after that even if I had no interest in ****ing her.

I find myself unable to say more except that I relate. I pushed myself out there hard to keep from settling into a rut, especially as delving into the romantic part of my psyche brought so many gremlins to the surface I'd have been doing myself a disservice by not facing them now.

By the sounds of it, you may benefit from looking for ways-any way-you can break out of your comfort zone. What is the answer to the question, "what can I do to fulfill my desires?" Because if we're not where we wanna be there's always something else we can do, no exceptions. Sometimes that simply means enduring but you've gotta give yourself a solid, positive focus if you don't want to get lost in your own pain.

You haven't forgotten how, you just need something to jolt your memory and make that part of you come alive. Part of it's internal, part of it is external, and it's all smaller than you-you can make it happen. You can always make it happen.

So goddess in training, what will it be?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

I really envy straight women... It seems like lots of women I know are getting fallen-in-love-with, romanced and seduced by noble, heroic and dashing men.

Um...no.

This has not been my experience at all. Maybe it happens to some women I don't know, but it hasn't happened to me since I was around...God, I can't even remember.

I know what you are going through, minus the gay part. It sucks.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Cochie,

For some reason, it was easy when I was younger. It gets harder as I get older.

I hear that!

[elucidate]

I'm the same.

My friends all have kids and I either don't see them because they are caught up with kids, or when I do see them we can hardly manage a conversation as the child doesn't like me getting any of her mothers attention and competes with me for it. It's a pain in the arse.

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Friendship would be one thing, but I already have a lot of friends whom I never see. It's like their stars are perpetually not sharing the sky with mine. I am in some bizarre state of universe misalignment.

I want a partner. Every time i have managed to connect with anyone, though, they're just as awkward about it as I am.

I really envy straight women... It seems like lots of women I know are getting fallen-in-love-with, romanced and seduced by noble, heroic and dashing men.

It's ****ing exhausting being gay, and a lot of work.

...and ironically men follow me around like lost puppies.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Cochie,

For some reason, it was easy when I was younger. It gets harder as I get older.

Which part was easy? Accepting being alone?

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Friendship would be one thing, but I already have a lot of friends whom I never see. It's like their stars are perpetually not sharing the sky with mine. I am in some bizarre state of universe misalignment.

I want a partner. Every time i have managed to connect with anyone, though, they're just as awkward about it as I am.

I really envy straight women... It seems like lots of women I know are getting fallen-in-love-with, romanced and seduced by noble, heroic and dashing men.

It's ****ing exhausting being gay, and a lot of work.

...and ironically men follow me around like lost puppies.

It does seem difficult to be a lesbian. It seems like lesbians are more guarded about who they let get into their heads.

At least you're looking for a relationship. It's easier to get in a lesbian relationship than it is to find casual sex with lesbians.

I would suggest looking in the gay district at bars, meetup groups, and online. At the very least you'll have more fun activities to do.

I don't envy straight women. Love doesn't last forever. It eventually fades or ends up badly. But have you considered pursuing a relationship with a man to test the waters?

You seem like a very strong, beautiful, and intelligent woman.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

At least you're looking for a relationship. It's easier to get in a lesbian relationship than it is to find casual sex with lesbians.

I don't envy straight women. Love doesn't last forever. It eventually fades or ends up badly. But have you considered pursuing a relationship with a man to test the waters?

You seem like a very strong, beautiful, and intelligent woman.

Easier relationship than casual sex? On what basis are you making that claim? 'cause that's not true at all. I have lesbians offer me casual sex on a pretty regular basis. A relationship is much more complex.

And she's already tried men.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Easier relationship than casual sex? On what basis are you making that claim? 'cause that's not true at all. I have lesbians offer me casual sex on a pretty regular basis. A relationship is much more complex.

And she's already tried men.

I've read books including an Abnormal Psychology textbook that say that gay men tend to go for sex while lesbians tend to go for love. I'm surprised to hear that lesbians are offering you casual sex on a regular basis. That sounds highly unusual. The fact that you reject their offers sounds more like the norm.

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Easier relationship than casual sex? On what basis are you making that claim? 'cause that's not true at all. I have lesbians offer me casual sex on a pretty regular basis. A relationship is much more complex.

And she's already tried men.

I'm writing on an iPad so this may come out wonky... I can only see a certain amount of text. What I meant to say at the bottom, Cochie, was that you have that cute androgynous vibe, and short hair I wear jewelry, which is pretty de-dykifying in and of itself.

I've seen that, too. I didn't come out when I was younger for that very reason. Men at least wanted to take me out and be a boyfriend, and since at the time I thought I was bi, women didn't seem worth the trouble. I didn't meet anyone who was terribly serious and when I did meet someone who was, typically they were as awkward as I was - dropping little hints and the like.

I'm actually having that conflict right now, having the limiting belief that i will not get chivalry, love or "giving" of any sort from a woman and won't find one unless -I- have something to offer -them-. And my ex, too, was a complete "taker".

Another thing, Cochie... You are pretty "visible". I would spot you, based upon my own experience with the lesbian community. You have a c

[rei]

I'm sorry you're hurting. No advice really. I have befriended a lesbian who is getting over a relationship. It seems her pain is somehow doubled due to ... Idk... feeling like she has a smaller pool to begin with maybe. I understand how relating can come with extra STUFF.

I also know lots of men and women at varying points on the Kinsey scale who could have written your OP.

I hope you get what you want.

ETA This jumped out at me.

I want a partner. Every time i have managed to connect with anyone, though, they're just as awkward about it as I am.

I'm not sure I understand... I mean, I've had that happen as well in many cases. Connection then anxious awkwardness. I think it's something both people can work past if they wish to. Are you wanting a connection that feels totally smooth? Cuz... I think there's value in that but I think we humans can bring all sorts of big ideas into the beginning of something and maybe that's not necessarily a bad thing, just creates a hurdle that caring people can move past. Idk.

Are you saying you don't think it's worth it if there is awkwardness? Or if you are sexually shy you would prefer the other party not be?

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I've read books including an Abnormal Psychology textbook that say that gay men tend to go for sex while lesbians tend to go for love. I'm surprised to hear that lesbians are offering you casual sex on a regular basis. That sounds highly unusual. The fact that you reject their offers sounds more like the norm.

Well, there's part of your problem. You are reading an extremely outdated abnormal psych book because the DSM hasn't listed same-sex attraction to be "abnormal" for twenty or thirty years. Also, while it's true that men have more casual sex, it doesn't mean lesbians don't still on the whole have a lot of casual sex. And I am pretty abnormal, not typical, because I've never had sex at all, while everyone I've dated has, regardless of their age. I don't know that I would be comfortable having my first sexual experience be very casual. That last feeling, though, I'd say is typical to some extent... At least with older lesbians I talked to online, they were pretty condescendingly preachy about my need to save my virginity for someone "special." I dont agree about my decision having to do at all with necessity, but simply is a matter of my comfort zone in the moment. But, regardless, I think that those interested in casual sex AND those not will be pretty picky when it comes to relationships . Either that or they likely won't be anyone I'm interested. What you suggest would apply if the relationships you speak of were as casual as the sex.

[bluestar]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

For some reason, my love life has been straight downhill since 22.

Lonely as hell. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a boat that drifts further and further away from shore with each passing year. And all I seem to meet are other lonely people who have been alone for so long that connection is too alien. It's like we whirl around a room full of people like us, then go home and say that there was no one there.

People in my world, lately, have been falling in love like crazy... But the difference between them and me, is that they never forgot how. They were people who date and mate constantly to begin with. They are comfortable with having sex quickly, too. I'm kind of bottled in that respect. I'm not comfortable with sex just for the sake of sex, I have to be romantically attracted to the person.

I find myself avoiding precisely the environments in which I could potentially meet someone, because those environments feel alien and sad to me - seeing people waltzing away together or even talking together... And having no idea how to be part of it. Just seeing people flirting with each other makes me feel depressed sometimes. I'm less lonely at home with my books than I am when I feel like the only alien jn a group of humans.

I know how to be in a relationship with a person who is obsessed with me and a bit crazy. I simply find someone who is interested and talk myself into giving them a chance. I have no idea how to be in anything in the least mutual. I've never been with anyone who I really genuinely liked. AND I'VE BEEN WITH PLENTY OF PEOPLE. I am not inexperienced.

I have no idea how to be with a normal person. Each experience has been worse than the last. I have a kind of sex PTSD at this point because my most recent memories of sex are all of BAD sex. I have not had a good kiss since 22. Each has been worse than the last. My partners seem to be getting more and more unskilled. I am stuck with the reticent and the tentative. With people who are uncomfortable in their very skin. with people who are uncomfortable with being close and who have closed off their sexual centers. What can i do to attract people whose sex and heart chakras aren't shut down?

I dont even want to admit my loneliness anymore because all I hear are the standard platitudes, and frankly, I'm sick of hearing them.

I'm not gay, I'm straight, but what you say really really rings a bell with me too.
Things were never right from the word go in my "relationship" life! I'm not bad looking now, but when I was much younger I was very good looking, as if that made any damn difference....it didn't. I was also kind hearted and friendly, open, sexual, intelligent, funny, all the things one should be.....as if THAT did me any good either!
It was always the same. A guy would hit on me, and we'd get to know each other, and he'd say how in love with me he was, and I'd believe it, and fall in love. Then I'd find out it was really someone else he loved and wanted to be with, not me at all. And his answer to that would be "You never really were my type"....or "It was only a bit of fun"....or "I didn't mean love you in THAT way"....etc etc.
I'd go -okay, one day I'll find someone else to share with who will really love me.....and guess what happened the next time? Exactly the same thing, and that happened four times in my life (with long long breaks in between while I picked myself up again) -gradually getting worse each time, until the last one. Well that was a real humdinger!
And quite honestly I tried to get back on the "horse" afterwards but you know I found I couldn't. I found I felt nothing much at all for anyone any more.(in a "relationship" way anyway) And it HAS got worse, and now I cannot see it being possible I will ever change. I will be a lonely old woman and no matter what I think about that there isn't anything I can do to change it. My heart won't play any more. Oh yes I could join this-or-that dating club.....tried that, and didn't feel a spark for anyone. Look at pics of guys -don't feel a thing. Nada. Zilch.

As for friends. I like them well enough, I go out and visit them, we have a nice time. NO-ONE and I mean NOT ONE of them comes over to visit me. I did have two very good friends who were real pals, and I was fond of, and shared a lot with....and they both died.

I am also getting very tired. Maybe a little the way you feel.
I love dogs and have a wonderful "little sister" (dog) and that little Soul brings me such joy and fun and happy days......

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

I'm writing on an iPad so this may come out wonky... I can only see a certain amount of text. What I meant to say at the bottom, Cochie, was that you have that cute androgynous vibe, and short hair I wear jewelry, which is pretty de-dykifying in and of itself.

Well, I don't know how much has to do with local culture, but when I was at a women's event a week ago, we went around the table asking each other's type... four out of six had long hair and said they preferred their women feminine. One said she was okay with "soft butch," though. There was one other girl who had short hair like me, and she didn't describe her type at all in terms of gender and instead said she likes theatre types. She guessed that I prefer feminine girls, too. On Craigslist, they usually say they're only into "femmes" and dislike "butch," which according to them includes me since they only see in black and white.

[Criseyde]

I had some thoughts earlier that might be relevant here.

A little over a year ago, I started a thread in this subforum asking "Why do I always attract emotionally unavailable men?" or something along those lines.

Today, I finally understood why. It's because I'm emotionally unavailable (or, I was for a long time). Duh.

Not in the same way as the men I was attracting, of course. But in getting scared and anxious, I was closing myself off to them, and I *definitely* wasn't paying any attention to their feelings and desires.

This is kind of a leap into the abyss, and I don't mean to offend at all, but here's my guess for you based on what I realized. I think you are likely to be very closed. Maybe not physically, but emotionally. You wrote that you never get involved with people you actually like, and:

I am stuck with the reticent and the tentative. With people who are uncomfortable in their very skin. with people who are uncomfortable with being close and who have closed off their sexual centers.

What would happen if you got involved with someone you really loved? If you fell head over heels for that person and they fell head over heels for you? How would you have to relate -- would you be comfortable? Think about letting someone who means the world to you get close. Is that a pleasant thought, or is it scary?

[elucidate]

I think I may be like this too?

For me, it stemmed from growing up around boys who never showed their emotions and stomped all over mine, so it really seemed to me that guys didn't have feelings. If they did they wouldn't walk all over mine, right? It made sense to me, but I have come to realize over the years that of course they do, and the social conditioning was the reason for them not being as obvious about it.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

I had some thoughts earlier that might be relevant here.

A little over a year ago, I started a thread in this subforum asking "Why do I always attract emotionally unavailable men?" or something along those lines.

Today, I finally understood why. It's because I'm emotionally unavailable (or, I was for a long time). Duh.

Not in the same way as the men I was attracting, of course. But in getting scared and anxious, I was closing myself off to them, and I *definitely* wasn't paying any attention to their feelings and desires.

This is kind of a leap into the abyss, and I don't mean to offend at all, but here's my guess for you based on what I realized. I think you are likely to be very closed. Maybe not physically, but emotionally. You wrote that you never get involved with people you actually like, and:



What would happen if you got involved with someone you really loved? If you fell head over heels for that person and they fell head over heels for you? How would you have to relate -- would you be comfortable? Think about letting someone who means the world to you get close. Is that a pleasant thought, or is it scary?

[Cochonette]

pyro... how much have you been socializing lately?

[lycan]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

I really envy straight women... It seems like lots of women I know are getting fallen-in-love-with, romanced and seduced by noble, heroic and dashing men.

Yea. Wait... what?

It's ****ing exhausting being gay, and a lot of work.

You are not gay. If you don't like it, you can choose to be straight/bisexual instead. You can feel lust, and you can feel romantic love towards men, if you decide it is something you are willing to do. I know society has conditioned you to think otherwise. This is politics, people finding ways around the repulsion most people feel toward homosexuality by making it seem that it is something people are victimized by, something outside their control, so that people feel guilty and ashamed of judging others for it. But it's time we grow up. Homosexuality is a habit of thought. So is heterosexuality. So is bestiality. So is pedophilia. They are habits formed by the interplay of your conscious choices, the reflexes of your body and your environment (past and current). If homosexuality is causing you pain instead of joy, choose a different habit.

[Jack Stark]

Just change the name of the habit, instead of the habit; or, recognize that the true nature is just that, one's nature, and the name that we grant it, and one's thoughts about that name, are the source of the unease.

[lycan]

More important, why is it only getting harder?

Lesbian freudian slips are fun.

[Jack Stark]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

I've never been with anyone who I really genuinely liked. AND I'VE BEEN WITH PLENTY OF PEOPLE. I am not inexperienced.

I just got here. Why doesn't this work:

Step 1: Find the closest person you genuinely like;
Step 2: Go down on them.
Step 3: Profit!

I am being flippant, but what's the short answer to my thought experiment?

I can imagine several outcomes but I don't think that would help for me to imagine them.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by Cado

Nevermind whether or not it's possible to change one's orientation, it's like trying to reach the other side of a mountain by traversing the globe in the opposite direction. If she could switch to straight it is very likely her belief would shift to, "all of my friends are finding these awesome men, why can't I?" It's the "why isn't it happening for me" which is the core of it, not her orientation.

Throwing a Herculean task onto your plate never moves you forward when it's entirely arbitrary and goes against your natural inclinations, all it does is keep you busy enough to satisfy your ego need to prove you are a "good" person. (You can sub out good with disciplined, diligent, persistent, whatever, the point is that it's positive self-perception, and when it's used like that it masks self-loathing.)

Let's keep ourselves on the topic at hand, hm?

Yeah. Thanks for putting us back on track.

I have my own Herculean task that I'm dealing with right now, with little in the way of results. The last thing I need is another one of those. Far easier is just accepting that, hey, I don't actually need a girlfriend. Or boyfriend. Or anyone in particular. Those things are fleeting anyway. What I need is a way to find joy in a more reliable way. That's my focus right now. Every time I find someone I like, it fails to turn into a relationship. Even relationships are fleeting. Some people are lucky and get into joyous relationships easily. Not all of us are like that, or need be like that. Actually, most of the people I know who have been seeking relationships during the past year are STILL SINGLE. That includes straight people. Some of them did get into relationships, but some of those relationships already ended or are in big trouble in less than a year.

[ZephyrusX]

Here is my random thought for the day:

Pyrogen: Someone else also brought up detachment earlier. I hope I'm not crossing the line in saying this, but lately your posts have sounded very fatalistic and almost resentful, which could be influencing your relationships. I sort of like what Coco said about getting comfortable with being alone. Not because I'm suggesting that you ought to be ok with being alone. If you want a relationship, that is what you should aim for. There just seems to be a lot of negative weight in your thoughts lately. When I feel that way, I find it deters me from acting on and receiving what I want.

Besides that, the only other thing I can really think of is to look at the channels you use to make new connections. I usually meet new people through my pool of friends and acquaintances and we have a lot in common. If you keep meeting awkward, unsatisfying people, may be it is time for a new circle of friends?