[ADULT] About my (sexual and other) relationship with my husband

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by inverse Paranoid

Thank you very much for this awesome example!

And thank YOU for again explaining so much better what I mean to say by the words that I am using then I did....

[inverse Paranoid]

Originally Posted by ssandra

And thank YOU for again explaining so much better what I mean to say by the words that I am using then I did....

You're welcome. Expressing myself clearly through words is a strong desire of mine, and I'm glad that I can share the fruits of that desire with you.

The next time you're struggling to explain things with your words it may be helpful to remember that while you may sometimes stumble over your words, the vibration behind them is beaming out loud and clear. All I did was pick up on the clarity that you were already emanating — that knowing that allowed you to explain yourself without wavering, even when others doubted — and then translate that vibrational clarity into written word.

So regardless of how many people may be misinterpreting you, the universe and those of like vibration are always hearing you loud and clear. And really that's all that matters.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ssandra

You did understand most of that correctly (although, I am not going to live with the situation as it is, situations are fluent, they change from moment to moment. I have decided to accept HIM as he is. Not the situation perse, although that flows sort of from it).

Ok, yes, I can see that now. Accepting him as he is, means that, for now, you accept the situation as it is knowing that it can change. Makes sense.

Originally Posted by ssandra

Do I understand you correctly that you belief that this method (accepting him as he is, flaw, bad decisions and all) won't work long term and that it comes from a place of a limiting belief instead of free choice?

No, I think that seeing him as flawed is part of the problem. You say that it's "none of your business" (which you've established to mean as some form of acceptance of him) what his sex drive, personal development, etc. is and that your accepting him with those "flaws".

And I'm saying that as long as you see those things as flaws, you'll never truly be happy. You'll be living in the flaw box. You'll either be upset at the flaw or you'll be accepting those flaws.

My point has been to think about what your marriage would be like if you didn't see your husband as flawed at all, and that you didn't see it as "having to accept him". I think true acceptance is more natural than that. Like, I accept that I have to eat and drink. I don't question it or need to force myself to do it. I just do it, because I accept that that is how it is.

Originally Posted by ssandra

And that you belief that the only way this can change (the situation) and I can have a happy marriage is if he changes (wants sex more) or I leave the relationship?

I've said that in my experience (and the many experiences I've observed of this same situation...bolding that part for emphasis because I'm not just relating *my* experience here), that this type of dynamic usually breaks a relationship.

That's not to say that he has to change or that you have to leave the relationship to fix it. What I'm saying is that you can't fix this issue yourself, no matter how much you want to. He's eventually going to have to step up to the plate and contribute at some point. 100% responsibility is a great starter, but it acts more like a primer than a patch. What I mean by that is that it will get the ball rolling, but the issue itself will not truly resolve until your husband gets on board with you.

Your perspective is a great start for encouraging him to get on board with you. But that's no guarantee that he will.

This is sort of where the "pulling away" thing comes in. I suggested that your backing off and accepting him OCCURED (that is, it *felt* like) pulling away. It's not you actually pulling away, but I think that, to him, he noticed your shift in energy. (That doesn't mean that that was or is your intention. I was just trying to show you why I perceive that the frequency of sex increased.) To illustrate that more clearly, imagine if someone keeps poking you constantly in the ribs...poke poke poke poke...and then suddenly they stop. You notice that, right? You notice something has *stopped* (i.e. something is MISSING that wasn't there before).

I suggested that that's what your acceptance did energetically in the relationship. It was you *stopping* something, and that *stopping* something occurred like a void...or a pulling away.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by James81

That's not to say that he has to change or that you have to leave the relationship to fix it. What I'm saying is that you can't fix this issue yourself, no matter how much you want to. He's eventually going to have to step up to the plate and contribute at some point. 100% responsibility is a great starter, but it acts more like a primer than a patch. What I mean by that is that it will get the ball rolling, but the issue itself will not truly resolve until your husband gets on board with you.

The great thing about being at cause in life is that there is no more need to "wait until my husband gets on board with me". There is no longer an issue to resolve, because there is no longer an issue.

Your perspective is a great start for encouraging him to get on board with you. But that's no guarantee that he will.

And this is exactly why it wouldn't work if this were my perspective. If I were to do this to get him or the situation to change, that wouldn't be acceptance. That would be manipulation. That wouldn't be at cause. That would be pretending to be at cause, to get something out of it, to get someone else to do (or stop doing) something.

This is sort of where the "pulling away" thing comes in. I suggested that your backing off and accepting him OCCURED (that is, it *felt* like) pulling away. It's not you actually pulling away, but I think that, to him, he noticed your shift in energy. (That doesn't mean that that was or is your intention. I was just trying to show you why I perceive that the frequency of sex increased.) To illustrate that more clearly, imagine if someone keeps poking you constantly in the ribs...poke poke poke poke...and then suddenly they stop. You notice that, right? You notice something has *stopped* (i.e. something is MISSING that wasn't there before).

Ok, I understand better now what you mean by pulling away. Thank you for clarifying that.

In the end though... if he has more sex with me or not, if it was because of me stopping to do this or not, it all doesn't matter.
Being at cause and accepting him as he is (meaning not with flaws, or seeing him as flaw, but seeing him completely. Not through rose glasses, but also not labeling anything I see different as a flaw. Simply, as is.).

No, I think that seeing him as flawed is part of the problem. You say that it's "none of your business" (which you've established to mean as some form of acceptance of him) what his sex drive, personal development, etc. is and that your accepting him with those "flaws".

And I'm saying that as long as you see those things as flaws, you'll never truly be happy. You'll be living in the flaw box. You'll either be upset at the flaw or you'll be accepting those flaws.

My point has been to think about what your marriage would be like if you didn't see your husband as flawed at all, and that you didn't see it as "having to accept him". I think true acceptance is more natural than that. Like, I accept that I have to eat and drink. I don't question it or need to force myself to do it. I just do it, because I accept that that is how it is.

I see how my writing comes across as this..

What I mean by acceptance though is truly accepting him as he is. The fact that he is overweight is a fact. I accept that he is overweight. It isn't good and it isn't bad. It is not my preference, but it is accepted anyway.

I have a hard time putting this into words.

By acceptance I mean seeing what I see, what I truly see, not putting on rose colored glasses, and accepting that someone is perfect with all their good points, bad points, flaws, warts and all.

I don't see a flaw as something negative, or something that needs to be changed (anymore ). It is perfectly ok that he has these flaws. If he would change, he would be perfectly ok still.

I think it is unrealistic (at least for me at this moment) to simply say that someone doesn't have what I perceive as flaws. Nobody is objectively perfect. Yet I can still accept them as being perfect the way they are.

I have flaws as well. I am not perfect. Yet, I do accept myself as being perfect exactly the way I am.

I see how this may sound contradictory and maybe I'm using wrong words. This very much is a feeling for me, something that I can feel and see, but have a hard time articulating.

The image I have in my mind is of a gem which has a flaw. There is a chip missing, or it has too much corners.... Yet, I accept that gem. I do not deny the fact that there is a flaw in the gem, but instead I accept the gem as perfect as it is, including the flaw. If someone were to work on the gem and change the flaw, or eliminate the flaw, I would still accept the gem as perfect as it is. Different, yet still perfect.

[VinceG]

Ssandra, what I love most about you is your utter lack of judgment. I really do look up to your example.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Ssandra, what I love most about you is your utter lack of judgment. I really do look up to your example.

It's a sign of a truly happy person when they can suspend total lack of judgement towards others.

[agsags]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It's a sign of a truly happy person when they can suspend total lack of judgement towards others.

As long as they don't become undiscerning .

Sandra, what would it take your husband to do for you to leave him? Something he could realistically do, not an improbably action.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It's a sign of a truly happy person when they can suspend total lack of judgement towards others.

Indeed.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by agsags

As long as they don't become undiscerning .

Actually that's kinda the point.

[Le Roi]

Originally Posted by James81

No, I think that seeing him as flawed is part of the problem. You say that it's "none of your business" (which you've established to mean as some form of acceptance of him) what his sex drive, personal development, etc. is and that your accepting him with those "flaws".

I think that accepting that someone is flawed instead of automatically assuming everything about them is "perfect" does lead to greater happiness. You accept and love what is, instead of fooling yourself that what someone does is perfect.

It's the same thing with self-acceptance. I felt happier and accepted myself more when I accepted that I had some flaws instead of just saying that everything about me is "perfect".

[agsags]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Actually that's kinda the point.

To clarify: the point of your comment coincides with mine or the point of your comment is the opposite of mine?

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by agsags

As long as they don't become undiscerning .

Sandra, what would it take your husband to do for you to leave him? Something he could realistically do, not an improbably action.

Some of my deal breaker values:

Communication - he has to talk with me, discuss things. Not just the big things, but also talk about ideas, dreams etc. Not all the time of course but in it's time.
Loving touch - If he would stop touching me, hugging me, kissing me, holding my hand when we walk.
Animal abuse - if he would purposefully torture animals (pulling wings out of flies, burning ants, etc. I have no problem with simply killing animals).
Support - In the end, he has to have my back. Of course I don't mind if he disagrees with me, but bullying me, calling me names etc. Not done.
Love - he has to love me. If he tells me he doesn't love me anymore, but stays with me for whatever stupid reason, I would leave.

There are some more, but these are major ones for me. If any of these would stop happening I would talk to him about it and see if he would be willing to make a change, if not, I would leave.

A good example was when he was depressed. Of course I would stay with him during a depression, but not if he wasn't willing to work on it, work on changing it, because at that time two of my values (Loving touch and Communication) weren't happening anymore.

He got the message, changed (back) and things were better again.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by agsags

To clarify: the point of your comment coincides with mine or the point of your comment is the opposite of mine?

Dropping judgment, imo, means to not discern, to not recognize one thing as good and one as bad. Everything simply is, no need to tell one thing from another. To wear the world as a loose garment.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by agsags

Sandra, what would it take your husband to do for you to leave him? Something he could realistically do, not an improbably action.

I'd like to add that it is highly unlikely that an action would cause me to leave him. It would be a way of being that I wouldn't be able to live with.

Repeated actions of course would point to a way of being...

One example of an action that I could think of that would cause me to leave him (although beyond extremely unlikely ) would be rape or child abuse.

[agsags]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Dropping judgment, imo, means to not discern, to not recognize one thing as good and one as bad. Everything simply is, no need to tell one thing from another. To wear the world as a loose garment.

My eyes, my eyes! . As my judgement is slowly dissolving in more and more areas, my ability to discern is getting stronger along with a stronger understanding of the need to be discerning. I see judgement and discernment to be on different sides of the ego. Judgement is what comes up before I made friends with my ego. Discernment - after.

How can one make any decisions without discernment?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by agsags

My eyes, my eyes! . As my judgement is slowly dissolving in more and more areas, my ability to discern is getting stronger along with an stronger understanding of the need to be discerning.

How can one make any decisions without discernment? Discernment seems to be an essential part of a spiritual path.

You're seeing with your spiritual eye. The eye that does not judge, only gazes. It sees all. One of the struggles we must go through as we become more spiritual is to learn not to let the mind go wild with what the spirit sees. James has yet to learn that lesson.

[agsags]

Originally Posted by VinceG

You're seeing with your spiritual eye. The eye that does not judge, only gazes. It sees all. One of the struggles we must go through as we become more spiritual is to learn not to let the mind go wild with what the spirit sees. James has yet to learn that lesson.

I agree (esp re: James ). Judgement comes from the mind. Discernment comes from Spirit. I just dislike it when Spirit-land is presented as a formless, lawless blob which has no discernment lines. Yes, it IS what it IS, but damn it, IT has structure!

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by agsags

I agree (esp re: James ). Judgement comes from the mind. Discernment comes from Spirit. I just dislike it when Spirit-land is presented as a formless, lawless blob which has no discernment lines. Yes, it IS what it IS, but damn it, IT has structure!

Discernment is a different kind of judgement, and it usually has to do with whether a situation is right or good or healthy for you...it has nothing to do with judging the other person for whatever is going down and their part to play though.

Ssandra has clarified her discernment of this situation rather succinctly without judging her husband.

[butterflyeffect]

Wow, Sandra I am really impressed and inspired by the way your handling this and being at cause.

So essentially you are saying to your hubby: you are a powerful and autonomous human being and I love and accept you for you even though I may not always agree with your decisions and that is okay.

I like the idea that your both recognising that the other is a completely unique and powerful individual and while you can both express your views it is upto the individual themselves what actions they take.

I get it in the abstract and I agree but how do you put into practice? Can you give another simple example? I'd like to start trying to do it myself.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by agsags

I agree (esp re: James ). Judgement comes from the mind. Discernment comes from Spirit. I just dislike it when Spirit-land is presented as a formless, lawless blob which has no discernment lines. Yes, it IS what it IS, but damn it, IT has structure!

For me, reality, Spirit, are like colors of experience. If you look at some paintings up close, all you see is color blotches. Step away, and you see the vista the artist painted. That to me is the loveliest metaphor for existence. I can step in close to the world, and see nothing but formless beauty. Then I can step back and discern shape and form and see the beauty my mind is creating out of all that color.

It's quite wonderful.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

"You get out of something, what you put into it."

Also known as Garbage In, Garbage Out.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by butterflyeffect

I get it in the abstract and I agree but how do you put into practice? Can you give another simple example? I'd like to start trying to do it myself.

Sure. It is a habit, so I'm still in the process of changing it (luckily I have some powerful NLP tools to help me with that!!)

For example:

We have an exercise machine at home. I may ask him "are you going to work out tonight?

The difference before and after is the reason why I ask. Before; I would ask because I want him to loose weight. To look better, to be healthier, to want more sex.

Now I ask because I either I am simply interested in his life and decisions or because I plan on using it and therefor want to coordinate the timing.

Whenever I notice that I ask something (or comment on something) for the first reason, I shut up. I don't say anything. Or if I already said it, I say "never mind".

And in my mind I repeat "I accept you as you are, your choices are yours". Or something similar.

When we talked about this, I asked him to let me know when I am going over the line. So when he does, I take a mental step back and admire him for the wonderful perfect person he is, even if he is not doing what I want him to do .

I am not a very auditory person, so it is difficult to put in words exactly what I say. It is more a mental shift, a feeling that I invoke.


A good way to practice this feeling, to know what this feeling feels like is whenever you have a quiet moment to yourself, take some time and accept someone (significant other, parent, friend) exactly as they are. Whenever you find thoughts coming up such as "but only if they weren't so..... X" repeat that mental image of them being perfect as they are. You accept them as they are, flaws, bad habits, annoying things and all. They are as they are and you accept them as they are in your life, or not. If you do not accept them as they are in your life, kick them out of your life

Anyway.. once you have that mental feeling of accepting them as they are, take notice of that feeling (feeling, picture, words etc). Anchor it, or at the very least remember it clearly.

Whenever you find yourself thinking (or saying ) "why isn't he/she X?" bring back that picture of acceptance.

I hope this is clear. If not, please do let me know!!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Le Roi

I think that accepting that someone is flawed instead of automatically assuming everything about them is "perfect" does lead to greater happiness. You accept and love what is, instead of fooling yourself that what someone does is perfect.

It's the same thing with self-acceptance. I felt happier and accepted myself more when I accepted that I had some flaws instead of just saying that everything about me is "perfect".

Bear in mind, that I'm not advocating thinking everything is perfection. To not have flaws does not automatically mean perfection. (Unless you work in an opposing paradigm...I call it the "good/evil" paradigm.)

To see someone (or yourself) as flawed taints your perception of them. To say "I accept you flaws and all" is to assume that those things about that person are flaws to begin with. That doesn't make them perfect. But it does degrade them in your perception.

To not be flawed might mean that a person is beautiful or awesome, it doesn't *have* to mean they are perfect. (Although, on a separate note, I might argue that everything is perfect the way it is, because, if it wasn't, it wouldn't be that way. There's a lot of value on taking up the perspective that perfection is what is in front of you, and that perfection takes many shapes. But that's a separate discussion entirely.)

Do you ever look at a tree and think that it is flawed because the leaves have fallen off it? Or a branch is bent or is not perfectly in line? Now, you might look at a tree and notice how beautiful it is against a mountainside. That's because you're able to look at the whole tree without honing into it's little quirks.

And that's what I'm talking about here. To hone into his flaws is to magnify your perception of those flaws. To say "I accept your flaws" is to acknowledge that you still see the flaws and are still focused on the flaws, which, to me anyway, isn't really acceptance.

(And, wow, this is actually kind of a cool realization I'm having as I type this stuff. I haven't really thought about this stuff in this manner before.)

I think true acceptance happens on a more "spiritual" level. (Not woo woo Jesus spiritual...but like the human spirit.) It's an issue of focus. When you are focusing on a flaw and talking about it, I don't think that you are accepting it in that moment. I think acceptance would mean that it doesn't even cross your mind as an issue.

If I were to say: "I accept that VinceG has talked about me in the third person and the mods haven't done **** to edit it" would you really believe that I had accepted that?

[Mariana Trench]

I just wanted to say congrats, Sandra! I know what it feels like to have a responsibility shift in a relationship (not of this nature, but still), and it really does seem magical. Have a great time!

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by James81

If I were to say: "I accept that VinceG has talked about me in the third person and the mods haven't done **** to edit it" would you really believe that I had accepted that?

Talking about people in the third person isn't against the rules. But thank you for the courtesy reminder, James. I happen to agree with you: it's generally considered more courteous to talk *to* people rather than *about* them (including a group like "the mods"... there is a little button at the bottom left hand corner in every post that allows anyone to talk to all the mods directly ).

Anyway, making comments about other people's progress or lack thereof isn't about Sandra's (sexual and other) relationship with her husband. Keeping the thread on topic would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

[Plays With Life]

My take on the discussion:

The "none of my business" comment made (and still makes) a heck of a lot of sense to me. Nothing any other person does is "my business". It's their business, and my business is purely how I respond to it. I think that's a great perspective to use.

I'm with James on the "no flaws" point. Taking the gemstone analogy: A gemstone can only have a flaw in comparison with the idea of a "perfect gemstone". If there were no such thing as a "perfect gemstone", there would be no such thing as a flaw in any gemstone. There wouldn't be any "perfection" to compare it against, to create the conceptual foundation for seeing particular characteristics of the gemstone as "flaws".

Similarly, a person can only "have a flaw" (in the mind of another person) if the person seeing the flaw is, at some level, comparing them with some idea of a "perfect person". If there were no idea of a "perfect person", there wouldn't be any conceptual foundation for seeing particular characteristics of the person as "flaws". I think what James is saying (and what I would also advocate) - is that if you simply drop your idea of "a perfect person", then there is no such thing as "a flaw" in any person. And that doesn't turn around to meaning that you think the person is "perfect". You don't have any "perfect person" idea, to begin with.

In my view: No person that has ever existed in the history of humanity has ever had a flaw. There is no such thing as a flaw in a person. If there were a perfect person, then there could be flaws in other people when compared to that perfect person. But I don't see any use in thinking of any particular person as perfect, or in constructing and maintaining an internal concept of a perfect person. I don't see any use or benefit to thinking of any characteristic of another person as a flaw. Does it contribute something to my life? Does it contribute something to the other person's life? Does it contribute something to animal life, or plant life? etc. I don't need the concept of flaws in people to achieve anything that I want. And using that concept doesn't provide me or anyone or anything else with anything useful, that I see.

Of course, I do have internal concepts of characteristics of humans that I enjoy, and characteristics of humans that I don't enjoy. And of course, I do compare my experiences of other people with those things that I enjoy and don't enjoy. But those things don't equate to an idea of a perfect person. Rather, they're simply things that I, personally, have a particular experience around. Comparing a person with those things never leads to thinking that they have a flaw (or flaws). Instead, it leads to thinking that they simply match or don't match some particular characteristics that I enjoy or don't enjoy. THAT is useful to me. I don't project my evaluation of those characteristics onto the person, as an inherent flaw that THEY possess. Instead, I simply recognize whether I enjoy it or not, and I use that to inform my decisions about how to interact with the person.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

Of course, I do have internal concepts of characteristics of humans that I enjoy, and characteristics of humans that I don't enjoy. And of course, I do compare my experiences of other people with those things that I enjoy and don't enjoy. But those things don't equate to an idea of a perfect person. Rather, they're simply things that I, personally, have a particular experience around. Comparing a person with those things never leads to thinking that they have a flaw (or flaws). Instead, it leads to thinking that they simply match or don't match some particular characteristics that I enjoy or don't enjoy. THAT is useful to me. I don't project my evaluation of those characteristics onto the person, as an inherent flaw that THEY possess. Instead, I simply recognize whether I enjoy it or not, and I use that to inform my decisions about how to interact with the person.

Thank you for your thoughts

I agree with this last part of what you are saying and this is very similar to how I feel, although I do use the word flaw meaning "characteristics that I don't much enjoy in myself and other people".

The feeling behind it is the same, just the word is different

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by ssandra

The feeling behind it is the same, just the word is different

Like I said, you and James were saying the same thing in different languages.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

My take on the discussion:

Awesome post and you nailed what I said in a much more understandable way.

[inverse Paranoid]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

I don't see any use or benefit to thinking of any characteristic of another person as a flaw. Does it contribute something to my life? Does it contribute something to the other person's life?

I think it contributes to both of your lives. Noticing a "flaw" informs you of what you prefer instead of that flaw, and it alerts you to the fact that you are focused on what you don't want creating the opportunity for a shift in perspective. If you simply conditioned yourself to never seeing flaws, then you would rarely gain any new insights on what you prefer and the river of desires that keeps that feeling of aliveness coursing through your veins will begin to slow to a trickle.

I'm not saying that's there's no value in being able to see the perfection in everything, or indeed releasing the concept of perfection completely, I'm just saying that expecting yourself to hold that point of view on all things is not as beneficial to you as noticing what you perceive as flaws and then shifting your point of view.

Remember, focusing on what you don't want also amplifies what you do want; so someone who has focused on a flaw and then shifted their perspective to no longer see it as a flaw has created more opportunity for expansion than someone who never saw that flaw in the first place.



i love you