People seem cold inside to me.

[RedRain]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Well, there ya go, now I'm feeling kind of alienated from you.

Why were you mean to her? What did you want to figure out? What are you trying to do on this forum? Just curious -- sorry if this seems cold!

Like Cochenette said, it wasn't intentional. I didn't really realize what I was doing until after. I was just playing a game, I didn't think it would hurt her really, and I don't really think it did.

Really, I just told her that I thought she was scared, and she didn't like that, so she said she didn't want to talk to me anymore.

As malicious intentions go, I don't think it was too serious.

I just wanted to see if I could talk to someone like her.

[Mounds]

With some threads, I'm simply a moth to a flame. This is one of them. Every time I think I'm going to leave it alone, I come back

I don't think there is anyone in this entire thread that is in attack mode. From reading the OP, my understanding was that we were trying to help RR see the warmth in people. What I'm starting to believe is that this thread is not at all about that at all. It's starting to appear that the goal is to move further into the problem frame. The reason I say that is because anyone who doesn't directly address the problem and talk about the problem and beg the question of why the problem exists get's either ignored or told to go away. Remind me what the point of this thread is... Is it to validate the problem or is it to find an outcome?

If you like, I will validate the problem for you. I'll tell you how everyone is cold and uncaring and solidify that problem for life. But I'm an honest guy, just like yourself. I choose not to validate the problem, I'd rather look for a solution.

[RedRain]

I don't necessarily think I am wrong. If I did, I don't think there would be a problem.

It's also possible that the problem is just the pain I feel because of how I perceive people, not necessarily how I perceive them.

I know the situation is frustrating. I don't take often take people at their word. I know most people do. I have my reasons, though.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by RedRain

I don't necessarily think I am wrong. If I did, I don't think there would be a problem.

It's also possible that the problem is just the pain I feel because of how I perceive people, not necessarily how I perceive them.

I know the situation is frustrating. I don't take often take people at their word. I know most people do. I have my reasons, though.

Redrain, I have this friend, my best girlfriend in fact, who you remind me a little of. I'll be completely honest with you and share what she's shared with me and what we've talked about to try to get her through these same issues you are having...maybe not quite as intellectually driven, as she is more social oriented in her feelings and relies mostly on body language, eye contact, etc., to explain why she feels the way she does about others.

She has a problem with people, women mainly, sort of ignoring her when we're in public. lol. She's one of the mostly absolutely stunningly beautiful women I've ever known, yet she seems to drive people away without even an action. She'll sit at a table in a bar when we're there to watch her husband's band, and although the bar may be full of people we know personally, there are many times they literally bow away from her when walking by.

BUT she will sit there, staring at the table or even staring at the other people with a scowl on her face, sometimes her arms crossed, and when I'm with her she'll constantly comment on the other people, judging their clothing, judging their behavior...comparing these things to what she perceives as correct and incorrect.

Well, we went home one night and she began to cry because one of the girls she came with basically got up and went to speak with other people and completely ignored her the whole night. The girl left with someone else and barely even gave my friend a goodbye. She felt the girl was a selfish b*tch because she treated her this way.

So I couldn't stand it anymore and I had to finally share with her what I thought her problem was. She scowls...she puts off a negative, cold vibe and people pick up on this instinctively (I believe) so they avoid her. She complains that no one come over to talk to her, yet she sits at the table and makes no effort to talk to them. She expects other people to make the effort to be her friend and enjoy her company.

Of course, I tried to be a little more gentle with my words than what I'm posting here, but she became very defensive and said, then why do YOU hang out with me if I'm so horrible!!!? You know I'm shy and have trouble around people and making friends. After that, she didn't talk to me for a week. lol

But when she did finally call me back, she said she thought about it, and although she still didn't feel like she was completely at fault for the others' actions "towards" her (she said), she would try being more friendly and just put herself out there. After two shows and being more sociable...not ASSUMING everyone was judging her and disliked her the way she would judge them and dislike them, sometimes without even getting to know them first, we had a table full of friends.

She still has issues with this, as we all do to some extent, but she is much happier and actually has a group of women she goes to a lunch date with every Tuesday while the kids are in school.

I don't know if I made this clear enough, but I'm trying to share with you that you are not alone in feeling that people are cold and unresponsive. But maybe just try to actively feel happier around people and accept what they say is truth...EVEN if it does feel fake to you at first...and pretend like you like everyone and everyone likes you just for a couple of weeks, you may find it easier to get past this tough time in your life.

If you don't want to feel this warmth and compassion that people are actually capable of, this won't work, but if you genuinely dislike this state you are in and want to feel a difference, it may help you.

LOVE YOURSELF, try your best to love everyone and accept them as equal, important human beings REGARDLESS of their traits (even the ones that annoy the hell out of you), and you will start feeling the love from them as well.

Goodluck to you sweetie! I hope this post wasn't too boring and long for you to read through. If it doesn't resonate at all, then it doesn't resonate and leave it at that! lol. But remember you are obviously a very intelligent man who has lots to say and probably wisdom you could share with others. There are lots of people who appreciate that and would love to share the same things with you if you will let them.

[yossarian]

Cochonette, your perception that I'm cold is just your perception.

If I was really cold I wouldn't post. I would just go live my life and ignore this depressing thread about some poor guy stuck in a rut of misery and hopelessness.

The same applies to almost everyone who posts in this thread. Maybe there are tiny slivers of selfishness, but the majority of the motivation for anyone in this thread is that they care and want to help a guy who is crying out with pain. It's as if a man on the street just broke his back and is moaning in pain... everyone who sees that instinctively wants to help.

My feelings toward RedRain are probably similar to most people in this thread: I feel a tremendous amount of empathy for the psychological rut he's stuck in. I feel sorrowful at his predicament and I feel love for him that motivates me to try to help. But all I can do is offer myself, all I can do is extend the olive branch.

When RedRain says no one loves him or cares about him I know that it's completely false. Because I care and I don't even know him at all. Perhaps I don't have the medicine necessary to fix his suffering, but realistically, no one does. The medicine is ultimately his own insight into his condition and his own choice to go on despite his belief that everyone is cold.

RedRain is not intentionally abusing people but his effect on others is cold-hearted, closed off, disconnected. People reach out to him in whatever way they know how and he rejects their offers out of fear of being harmed. In others, this is experienced as a rejection, which is never a pleasant experience. My theory is that RedRain does not want to have this effect on people, he would rather be warm and loving toward them even if they are cold back to him, and he's trying to learn how to be. Step 1 in learning how to get somewhere is learning where you are.

The reason I point out his effect on others is because I believe he isn't treating others how he wants to treat them. I believe he's acting out a pattern.

RedRain, do you feel warmth for others? Do you want to learn how to feel warmth for others?

I want RedRain to stop focusing on how others are treating him and start focusing on how he is treating others.

RedRain, are you willing to consider the possibility that others miss you when you're gone?

Are you willing to consider the possibility that others actually do like you for you?

[James81]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Cochonette, your perception that I'm cold is just your perception.

If I was really cold I wouldn't post. I would just go live my life and ignore this depressing thread about some poor guy stuck in a rut of misery and hopelessness.

The same applies to almost everyone who posts in this thread. Maybe there are tiny slivers of selfishness, but the majority of the motivation for anyone in this thread is that they care and want to help a guy who is crying out with pain. It's as if a man on the street just broke his back and is moaning in pain... everyone who sees that instinctively wants to help.

My feelings toward RedRain are probably similar to most people in this thread: I feel a tremendous amount of empathy for the psychological rut he's stuck in. I feel sorrowful at his predicament and I feel love for him that motivates me to try to help. But all I can do is offer myself, all I can do is extend the olive branch.

When RedRain says no one loves him or cares about him I know that it's completely false. Because I care and I don't even know him at all. Perhaps I don't have the medicine necessary to fix his suffering, but realistically, no one does. The medicine is ultimately his own insight into his condition and his own choice to go on despite his belief that everyone is cold.

RedRain is not intentionally abusing people but his effect on others is cold-hearted, closed off, disconnected. People reach out to him in whatever way they know how and he rejects their offers our of fear of being harmed. My theory is that RedRain does not want to have this effect on people, he would rather be warm and loving toward them even if they are cold back to him, and he's trying to learn how to be. Step 1 in learning how to get somewhere is learning where you are.

The reason I point out his effect on others is because I believe he isn't treating others how he wants to treat them. I believe he's acting out a pattern.

RedRain, do you feel warmth for others? Do you want to learn how to feel warmth for others?

I want RedRain to stop focusing on how others are treating him and start focusing on how he is treating others. I think this will ease his suffering.

RedRain, are you willing to consider the possibility that others miss you when you're gone?

Are you willing to consider the possibility that others actually do like you for you?

This is such a great post.

I agree, especially with the "acting out a pattern" part. And it's not something specific to RedRain. We all act out patterns, and those patterns are in place because they have gotten us what we want in the past. A lot of times, however, the patterns outlive their due date and expire, but we keep running them -- hoping to get what we used to get by running that pattern.

Oft times, however, not examining and updating our patterns will get us more of what we don't want.

In this case, it would be the coldness....isolation...and the pain of loneliness -- living in a world where it seems like people don't care (when so many people in this thread have shown they DO care).

[RedRain]

I forget my intention for the original post.

I believe I was feeling extremely lonely at that point. I think escaping loneliness drives many of my actions.

I never tell the whole story to people because people hate the stuff that's in it.

It's very complicated and involved to.

I grew up in a very, very different kind of religion. A scientist back in the 18th century wrote 30 some books concerning heaven and hell, God, the Bible, everything.

My religion does not teach that faith alone saves.

Now this is the centerpiece of everything I am. The books that this man wrote say that salvation is acquired through a process called 'regeneration'. It is similar to what is normally referred to as repentance, but it is more of an internal struggle than an external one.

Everything I believe in is based on what this man wrote.

He describes the process as seeing evil inside ourselves and shunning it with the help of God and having good, or love, takes its place. Evil is anything that is destructive towards society, humankind, etc etc.

There is just so much I can't explain about what he writes because it would take so long. The way he describes the most loving people, though, is just so beautiful. They want nothing for themselves. Everything they say is for the sake of everyone else.


I believed this because I was raised to believe it, and one day I saw the evil inside myself. I saw the desires that only cared for my well being and only others well being to the extent that it would help my well being.

I saw the evil and I destroyed it. I believe God destroyed it because that is what my religion says, but if you don't believe in God then it would be me who destroyed it.

In any case, much of it disappeared. I destroyed these desires in myself and they are the same desires I see in other people. I know what they are because they were inside of me and I removed them and pushed them away.

They were cold.

This is the truth and I am and will forever be lost to it.

It is not something people like to hear, but you want the truth and I have to tell you the truth I believe.

I believe in something beautiful and so removed from earthly and self-centered desires.

I have always been lying to you in a sense because no one likes the truth. I just get very lonely sometimes.

I'm sorry.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by RedRain

I forget my intention for the original post.

I believe I was feeling extremely lonely at that point. I think escaping loneliness drives many of my actions.

I never tell the whole story to people because people hate the stuff that's in it.

It's very complicated and involved to.

I grew up in a very, very different kind of religion. A scientist back in the 18th century wrote 30 some books concerning heaven and hell, God, the Bible, everything.

My religion does not teach that faith alone saves.

Now this is the centerpiece of everything I am. The books that this man wrote say that salvation is acquired through a process called 'regeneration'. It is similar to what is normally referred to as repentance, but it is more of an internal struggle than an external one.

Everything I believe in is based on what this man wrote.

He describes the process as seeing evil inside ourselves and shunning it with the help of God and having good, or love, takes its place. Evil is anything that is destructive towards society, humankind, etc etc.

There is just so much I can't explain about what he writes because it would take so long. The way he describes the most loving people, though, is just so beautiful. They want nothing for themselves. Everything they say is for the sake of everyone else.


I believed this because I was raised to believe it, and one day I saw the evil inside myself. I saw the desires that only cared for my well being and only others well being to the extent that it would help my well being.

I saw the evil and I destroyed it. I believe God destroyed it because that is what my religion says, but if you don't believe in God then it would be me who destroyed it.

In any case, much of it disappeared. I destroyed these desires in myself and they are the same desires I see in other people. I know what they are because they were inside of me and I removed them and pushed them away.

They were cold.

This is the truth and I am and will forever be lost to it.

It is not something people like to hear, but you want the truth and I have to tell you the truth I believe.

I believe in something beautiful and so removed from earthly and self-centered desires.

I have always been lying to you in a sense because no one likes the truth. I just get very lonely sometimes.

I'm sorry.

Please don't apologize for your beliefs. You have nothing to apologize for. I will admit this is hard for me to personally understand. But I personally believe everyone has self-preservation skills and they will do things for their own good, even helping others. But we are all capable of also doing things for others, giving love to others with no benefit to ourselves.

I think here it might help you to kind of stray from the concept that you will find that person that only cares for the benefit of others. In fact, I think the only way that could possibly happen would be to place God here in human form. If you do believe in God, remember that he wants you to be happy. IN NO WAY would he want you to live your life lonely.

To accept people and feel their love, I think it might help you to accept that even within those acts of kindness and caring that benefit themselves, they might also be trying to help you and share that with you for your benefit. Giving your love also helps a person love themself, and vice versa. It's okay to learn from your own actions and make something good for yourself from them...even if they are intended only for others. Just think, if everyone only loved others, we would become dodo's and vanish from the Earth. lol. Then there would be nobody left to love or love you back.

I truly believe you must care for yourself, love your self, feel warmth from inside you before you can truly do the same for others and it is in this that you will find the warmth that human beings are capable of sharing with you as well.

God gives you strength and is there for only our higher good, but it is from within ourself that we succeed and find happiness.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I've been in a similar place in life where it felt like no one wanted anything to do with me. They were only interested in themselves. I know how it worked for me:

I developed an internal model of the world in which people were simply selfish and I was the selfless one, always on the losing side. So then I went out into the wide open world and projected that model everywhere I went. People reacted to it, furthering my conviction.

So I've been there. It does suck. The joy of it is that it's not external. It's internal, radiating from inside out. It's not very difficult to change if you start very small. Finding a single thing you like about a person (as James said) is a good start.

+1 on this. It does suck balls. But it's also a transitional phase, I think the feeling of coldness comes from holding on to a way of being or perceiving others that is no longer really a good fit for the level of self awareness that you have attained.

I think everyone is on a path towards that, sure, and none are comparable. But I am a relativistic libra, so that's my outlook. LMAO. Subjective reality FML.

Anyways, I didn't realize it was all in how I was looking at it until earlier this year, so I feel redrain on this. But it really is all about just turning your self like a fraction of a degree and you see everything just differently and all the old stuff falls away. you have to let go of it, though.

[RedRain]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

Please don't apologize for your beliefs. You have nothing to apologize for. I will admit this is hard for me to personally understand. But I personally believe everyone has self-preservation skills and they will do things for their own good, even helping others. But we are all capable of also doing things for others, giving love to others with no benefit to ourselves.

I think here it might help you to kind of stray from the concept that you will find that person that only cares for the benefit of others. In fact, I think the only way that could possibly happen would be to place God here in human form. If you do believe in God, remember that he wants you to be happy. IN NO WAY would he want you to live your life lonely.

To accept people and feel their love, I think it might help you to accept that even within those acts of kindness and caring that benefit themselves, they might also be trying to help you and share that with you for your benefit. Giving your love also helps a person love themself, and vice versa. It's okay to learn from your own actions and make something good for yourself from them...even if they are intended only for others. Just think, if everyone only loved others, we would become dodo's and vanish from the Earth. lol. Then there would be nobody left to love or love you back.

I truly believe you must care for yourself, love your self, feel warmth from inside you before you can truly do the same for others and it is in this that you will find the warmth that human beings are capable of sharing with you as well.

God gives you strength and is there for only our higher good, but it is from within ourself that we succeed and find happiness.

Well, to clarify one thing, those who only care for others do care for themselves to that extent that they have to in order to care for others. Our view of ourselves is supposed to be, first in time, but last in importance.

I am also oversimplifying it because no one can actually be perfect, there are just those who are closer to perfect, closer to being selfless.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by RedRain

Well, to clarify one thing, those who only care for others do care for themselves to that extent that they have to in order to care for others. Our view of ourselves is supposed to be, first in time, but last in importance.

I am also oversimplifying it because no one can actually be perfect, there are just those who are closer to perfect, closer to being selfless.

Hmmmm...I see exactly what you mean. Maybe (and I'm not trying to imply you're wrong in your thinking or anything like that because your thinking is PERFECT and makes you who you are...you are perfectly YOU) to help you see the good in everyone, you can think of everyone like a work in progress. EVERYONE. Even yourself and the people you look at as the closest to perfect that is humanly possible. We are a work in progress, each and every once of us, and in each moment we are perfect for that moment's time until we change and become perfect for the next moment's time.

I sound like a whacko!! lol. But I really mean it. It might help if instead of trying to seek the perfect, selfless person...just find that part that exists in everyone, INCLUDING YOURSELF. Actually, right now, I think the latter is the most important for your happiness.

Again, just insight from a whacko...take what you will from it.

EDIT: It might also help to broaden your definition of perfect, just for a little while, and see if changing those standards helps bring you relief and also helps you see what inside of you is most beautiful and perfect.

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by RedRain

I forget my intention for the original post.

I believe I was feeling extremely lonely at that point. I think escaping loneliness drives many of my actions.

I never tell the whole story to people because people hate the stuff that's in it.

It's very complicated and involved to.

I grew up in a very, very different kind of religion. A scientist back in the 18th century wrote 30 some books concerning heaven and hell, God, the Bible, everything.

My religion does not teach that faith alone saves.

Now this is the centerpiece of everything I am. The books that this man wrote say that salvation is acquired through a process called 'regeneration'. It is similar to what is normally referred to as repentance, but it is more of an internal struggle than an external one.

Everything I believe in is based on what this man wrote.

He describes the process as seeing evil inside ourselves and shunning it with the help of God and having good, or love, takes its place. Evil is anything that is destructive towards society, humankind, etc etc.

There is just so much I can't explain about what he writes because it would take so long. The way he describes the most loving people, though, is just so beautiful. They want nothing for themselves. Everything they say is for the sake of everyone else.


I believed this because I was raised to believe it, and one day I saw the evil inside myself. I saw the desires that only cared for my well being and only others well being to the extent that it would help my well being.

I saw the evil and I destroyed it. I believe God destroyed it because that is what my religion says, but if you don't believe in God then it would be me who destroyed it.

In any case, much of it disappeared. I destroyed these desires in myself and they are the same desires I see in other people. I know what they are because they were inside of me and I removed them and pushed them away.

They were cold.

This is the truth and I am and will forever be lost to it.

It is not something people like to hear, but you want the truth and I have to tell you the truth I believe.

I believe in something beautiful and so removed from earthly and self-centered desires.

I have always been lying to you in a sense because no one likes the truth. I just get very lonely sometimes.

I'm sorry.

I don't know you, obviously, so if I am way off base, no surprise.

I appreciate what you said here, though. I actually think it is effective for us know know we are all capable of 'evil." Though, for me, it is more about our "shadow-selves."

We are all capable of creating great hurt in others and we all have in some degree or another in our lifetimes (and will continue to do so).

Our thoughts do this, too. ALL the time. We are always "giving," the question is, WHAT are we giving? See, for me, thoughts matter a TON, even more than action. Everyone can put on a great facade, but what lurks beneath?? I believe, very firmly that what lurks beneath matters a ton.

THe lady who smiles and gives a homeless man $20.00 is doing a good deed? Well, maybe not - not if her heart is black and she thinks, "Hmph, what a poor, pitiful man, I am above him, I will throw him a bone."

She is still contributing to the problem of homelessness with her thoughts... her actions are nothing but a fancy cover-up.

That's an extreme case, but I know many think that way.

Some of us may give because we feel sorry for another.... this is not true compassion. Pity is not compassion, it is the ego still saying, "i am better than you."

I don't know where I am going with this, I better stop.... lol.

I get what you are saying, though.

It IS important to acknowledge the darkness in each of us. We all have it. We are all capable of it. For me, being mindful of my own thoughts dictates my actions. I know I am feeling true, genuine Love for all and for others as I shine a light on my own darkness and see it. I also know I can choose Love instead of Evil.

[jawillie]

As far as lonliness? I know this from experience - I walked through the lonliness of darkness and depression and confusion. You will come out on the other side. Just keep walking.... Sometimes we do have to spend time in the sadness and lonliness. It won't hurt you. It only hurts us if we refuse to feel it and cover it up or numb the pain. The only way through it is through it.... So anything we say will be meaningless and sound cold, because that's where you are now and I understand.

[Criseyde]

1. I love Cochonette and I would never attack her, even if we happened to disagree -- and I don't think we do, in this case. I also really admire her ability to relate to you and get through to you; I'd like to learn from that. I wouldn't attack you, either, RedRain!

2. Do you believe in your own goodness? Do you believe that you are actually capable of being selfless, caring, and loving? I know you said that God removed the evil from you -- but do you really believe that it's gone?

Do you believe that you are fundamentally good, caring, and loving, even if you are selfish sometimes?

[AlmostGodess]

Originally Posted by RedRain

I just get very lonely sometimes.

I'm sorry.

I become a monster when I feel lonely: I don't like the world around me because it is a world that left me alone and does not offer me the reasons to be happy, I don't like the people around me because they seem so content with their lives, I don't like myself because I am capable of feeling so much alienation.

I had times when my loneliness was my show. I was wearing only black, wearing only very ugly stuff, reading philosophy and hanging out with the most unpopular people.

I had times I felt I was lonely because I was just too special. One day however I asked myself if it wasn't selfish to consider myself that special. I looked inside me and I saw so much energy and life and I thought it was selfish to keep it all for myself and to refuse it to others just because I consider them unworthy of my specialness.

Well, I kind of turned around to being normal and I like it. I still feel lonely sometimes, but it's a different kind of loneliness. If you want to get out of that feeling, your heart will find a way.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by jawillie

It IS important to acknowledge the darkness in each of us. We all have it. We are all capable of it. For me, being mindful of my own thoughts dictates my actions. I know I am feeling true, genuine Love for all and for others as I shine a light on my own darkness and see it. I also know I can choose Love instead of Evil.

I COMPLETELY agree with you. Without that darkness, we would have no reasons at all for self contemplation, religion, compassion, good deeds, etc. It's a constant push and pull. We need dark and light to be human.

It so funny if you take a creature that has less evolved intelligence, like a coyote for example. That coyote eats dead animals. It would eat another coyote if it were helpless.

If I ate another person to survive, it would considered evil. Of course, I know better than to do that because I have concept of humanity...as do coyotes for their own kind...but give them a rabbit, give them a field mouse...they're not going to hesitate killing it and eating it.

I've seen people get upset at watching shows where animals do these kinds of things. LOL. To us, these behaviors are dark, evil, lacking in compassion, and completely self-perserving. But if coyotes didn't eat roadkill and small animals, they wouldn't be coyotes at all. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for those "dark" parts of this animal's existence, we'd probably be overrun with rabbits and the lovely roadkill would continually stink and rot until WE had to clean it up.

NOT to mention, the coyotes would cease to exist.

So, those dark parts of human kind are part of what makes us human. We recognize them and are lucky enough to understand when we're doing a disservice to man kind, but I don't think we'll ever lose those self-preservation skills of serving ourselves as well.

Perfectly human.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by AlmostGodess

I become a monster when I feel lonely: I don't like the world around me because it is a world that left me alone and does not offer me the reasons to be happy, I don't like the people around me because they seem so content with their lives, I don't like myself because I am capable of feeling so much alienation.

I had times when my loneliness was my show. I was wearing only black, wearing only very ugly stuff, reading philosophy and hanging out with the most unpopular people.

I had times I felt I was lonely because I was just too special. One day however I asked myself if it wasn't selfish to consider myself that special. I looked inside me and I saw so much energy and life and I thought it was selfish to keep it all for myself and to refuse it to others just because I consider them unworthy of my specialness.

Well, I kind of turned around to being normal and I like it. I still feel lonely sometimes, but it's a different kind of loneliness. If you want to get out of that feeling, your heart will find a way.

I can't rep you, but I love -- and resonate with -- this post. (Although I still look good in black. )

[AlmostGodess]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

(Although I still look good in black. )[/SIZE]

Now I am in tears. I knew and hoped that I was not alone

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I COMPLETELY agree with you. Without that darkness, we would have no reasons at all for self contemplation, religion, compassion, good deeds, etc. It's a constant push and pull. We need dark and light to be human.

It so funny if you take a creature that has less evolved intelligence, like a coyote for example. That coyote eats dead animals. It would eat another coyote if it were helpless.

If I ate another person to survive, it would considered evil. Of course, I know better than to do that because I have concept of humanity...as do coyotes for their own kind...but give them a rabbit, give them a field mouse...they're not going to hesitate killing it and eating it.

I've seen people get upset at watching shows where animals do these kinds of things. LOL. To us, these behaviors are dark, evil, lacking in compassion, and completely self-perserving. But if coyotes didn't eat roadkill and small animals, they wouldn't be coyotes at all. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for those "dark" parts of this animal's existence, we'd probably be overrun with rabbits and the lovely roadkill would continually stink and rot until WE had to clean it up.

NOT to mention, the coyotes would cease to exist.

So, those dark parts of human kind are part of what makes us human. We recognize them and are lucky enough to understand when we're doing a disservice to man kind, but I don't think we'll ever lose those self-preservation skills of serving ourselves as well.

Perfectly human.

I am one of those people that cringe and feel sad at witnessing even natural kills... but I feel sad for ALL suffering. Always have. Instant killing, no problem, but if there is suffering... I literally can't stand it and my heart physically hurts. I guess I feel the animal being hunted is suffering, until they are killed. Yet, I am aware that I DO cause suffering, somehow, someway, just by my very existence....

I want to clarify - I believe (I don't "know," obviously) that there is only Fear or there is only Love. Fear/evil same thing.

Anyway - RR - I am thankful for the thoughts being shared here, I just hope we aren't adding to your lonliness. No one can "fix" lonliness... but yet you are not alone.

[RedRain]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

1. I love Cochonette and I would never attack her, even if we happened to disagree -- and I don't think we do, in this case. I also really admire her ability to relate to you and get through to you; I'd like to learn from that. I wouldn't attack you, either, RedRain!

2. Do you believe in your own goodness? Do you believe that you are actually capable of being selfless, caring, and loving? I know you said that God removed the evil from you -- but do you really believe that it's gone?

Do you believe that you are fundamentally good, caring, and loving, even if you are selfish sometimes?

It's a complicated thing. My religion says that left to ourselves we are nothing, but evil. All good is God's.

In the truest sense, we aren't good or evil. We are only vessels to allow evil in or good in.

We aren't supposed to claim ownership of good because we would corrupt it if we think it is ours. We aren't supposed to think evil is ours either because then it becomes attached to us and we feel guilty because of it.

Supposedly, we inherit evil tendencies from our parents passed down from the generations, each one building on the next. This is why we have to go through 'regeneration'.

I guess regeneration in simplified terms could be described as the process of realizing that neither good or evil is ours.

The process takes a long time, though. It is difficult because the very loves that make you who you are are being rooted out of you.

The evil inside you is never really gone, either. It is more put to sleep than it is removed. There is still evil in me that is not put to sleep, I believe.

I think the loneliness in me is a destructive force because of what it causes me to do. It is hard to overcome, though.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by jawillie

I am one of those people that cringe and feel sad at witnessing even natural kills... but I feel sad for ALL suffering. Always have. Instant killing, no problem, but if there is suffering... I literally can't stand it and my heart physically hurts. I guess I feel the animal being hunted is suffering, until they are killed. Yet, I am aware that I DO cause suffering, somehow, someway, just by my very existence....

I want to clarify - I believe (I don't "know," obviously) that there is only Fear or there is only Love. Fear/evil same thing.

Anyway - RR - I am thankful for the thoughts being shared here, I just hope we aren't adding to your lonliness. No one can "fix" lonliness... but yet you are not alone.

I understand! I used to have a real problem even seeing animals be hunted by one another. I guess one day I just accepted it as the circle of life. I dunno. Still hurts me to see anything in pain...that can't be avoided...but it can be accepted if it's what's intended.

[elucidate]

I see what you are saying, but having experienced only game playing from this person, I don't even trust that this is a genuine cry for help from him or wanting people to be warm. In my opinion, he just likes to rope people into think what he wants them to think about him, to amuse himself from the emotional reactions he can stir in them... maybe I'm wrong, but this is my impression.

Originally Posted by Cochonette

I wasn't so much commenting on the content of what yossarian was saying as the conversational approach he was taking. RedRain obviously was not responding well to quite a few people talking to him this way, so why would it be helpful to keep talking to him that way? That seems pretty insensitive to me.

I mean, telling him he is abusing people? Harming them? In this thread? That's not cool and says a lot about where he's coming from.

Besides, I used to be like RedRain... I'd post threads and couldn't appreciate people's warm intentions... a lot of responses would really miss my point or just not be helpful, and I didn't understand why and would get frustrated and sometimes direct that frustration at the people posting. But it's not doing any better than the OP to just get frustrated back and start just complaining about him. It's not like he's attacking anyone, so responding by turning really cold on him in a thread about people being cold, and when his intentions are just as genuine as anyone else's, is not very insightful, coming from people who are advocating that cold returns cold. If we are going to tell him that in order to find warmth he must produce it, we could start by setting an example. And that's what happened whenever I was deeply moved to a life-changing point by someone - there was this person who wouldn't merely talk about warmth or feel it for themselves or share it in a very set way, like a solid like ice... it would be more like liquid warmth that would move around me and talk to me... incidentally, throwing something in a tub of water is an excellent method of thawing.

I am, at least, glad we're on a forum where we're mature and caring enough to even discuss this and have this problem be taken for what it is. There are very few places in the world where that would be possible amongst such a large number of people.

<3

[RedRain]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I see what you are saying, but having experienced only game playing from this person, I don't even trust that this is a genuine cry for help from him or wanting people to be warm. In my opinion, he just likes to rope people into think what he wants them to think about him, to amuse himself from the emotional reactions he can stir in them... maybe I'm wrong, but this is my impression.

No more games, elucidate. A part of me is very attracted to you. My head says it's wrong that I'm attracted to you, that's probably why it seems like I'm playing games all the time.

You make me feel less alone. I think I also wanted to make you more like me and that's why I said I thought you were scared, because I was scared and wanted you to be like me.

I think I felt like I had to trick you into liking me.

Also, the only reason I'm saying this stuff is because I still feel alone and am trying to escape it by being honest. I don't think it's going to work.

[Brutha]

I destroyed these desires in myself and they are the same desires I see in other people. I know what they are because they were inside of me and I removed them and pushed them away.

Pushing away emotions is a harmful endeavor. It prevents you from feeling empathy. Feeling a warm connection.
Lack of empathy get's commonly labeled as cold.

There is just so much I can't explain about what he writes because it would take so long. The way he describes the most loving people, though, is just so beautiful. They want nothing for themselves. Everything they say is for the sake of everyone else.

Do you think that other practitioners of your religion embody those values? Do you feel that they are also cold to you?

My religion says that left to ourselves we are nothing, but evil.

Does your spiritual practice consists mainly of being by ourself with a book and fighting your desires?

[Tobes]

Very interesting discussion here, and it kind of hits home a bit. Long ago when I was very young, my 'friendliness' and spontaneity were met with hurt and rejection. As a result, I became very withdrawn and considered myself defective during my formative and school years. HOWEVER, unbeknown to me, others perceived my 'attitude' as being stuck up, cold, and even snobby. This pattern continued and kept compounding and reinforcing the cycle and loneliness, and it has taken me years of work to address.

Inwardly, I was (am) a very friendly, feeling, passionate person, but this pattern began to setup a terrible cycle in my life. Because of my early hurt and rejection, I simply did not trust people, and became very perceptive of inauthentic actions and behaviors. I would therefore, 'kick the tires' to test people (while inwardly hoping to God they would accept me anyhow - but usually pushing them away). It's amazing that even today I know this, and still find that the very defenses I erect to protect myself, paradoxically hold out the social 'juice' which I need and crave.

So I understand the loneliness (though not saying Redrain that your situation is similar to mine). Even though I understand the dynamics today, I still struggle with the patterns of these deeply entrenched defense mechanisms. I also get angry that life can be so unfair as to taint someone at such an early innocent age such as to setup a self defeating pattern that is very difficult to overcome. Just be aware of one fact: "Hurt people..HURT people!"

[James81]

Originally Posted by RedRain

I forget my intention for the original post.

I believe I was feeling extremely lonely at that point. I think escaping loneliness drives many of my actions.

I never tell the whole story to people because people hate the stuff that's in it.

It's very complicated and involved to.

I grew up in a very, very different kind of religion. A scientist back in the 18th century wrote 30 some books concerning heaven and hell, God, the Bible, everything.

My religion does not teach that faith alone saves.

Now this is the centerpiece of everything I am. The books that this man wrote say that salvation is acquired through a process called 'regeneration'. It is similar to what is normally referred to as repentance, but it is more of an internal struggle than an external one.

Everything I believe in is based on what this man wrote.

He describes the process as seeing evil inside ourselves and shunning it with the help of God and having good, or love, takes its place. Evil is anything that is destructive towards society, humankind, etc etc.

There is just so much I can't explain about what he writes because it would take so long. The way he describes the most loving people, though, is just so beautiful. They want nothing for themselves. Everything they say is for the sake of everyone else.


I believed this because I was raised to believe it, and one day I saw the evil inside myself. I saw the desires that only cared for my well being and only others well being to the extent that it would help my well being.

I saw the evil and I destroyed it. I believe God destroyed it because that is what my religion says, but if you don't believe in God then it would be me who destroyed it.

In any case, much of it disappeared. I destroyed these desires in myself and they are the same desires I see in other people. I know what they are because they were inside of me and I removed them and pushed them away.

They were cold.

This is the truth and I am and will forever be lost to it.

It is not something people like to hear, but you want the truth and I have to tell you the truth I believe.

I believe in something beautiful and so removed from earthly and self-centered desires.

I have always been lying to you in a sense because no one likes the truth. I just get very lonely sometimes.

I'm sorry.

So, what is the truth you are talking about?

Is it that we all have evil desires lurking inside of us, but most of us walk around and pretend like we don't?

[RedRain]

Originally Posted by James81

So, what is the truth you are talking about?

Is it that we all have evil desires lurking inside of us, but most of us walk around and pretend like we don't?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

I have no idea what the actual truth is. I only know the truth about what I believe.

If you're asking if that is what I believe, then yes, it is what I believe. I believe that people have evil in them and either aren't aware of it or aren't concerned about it. I do, also, believe they hide it.

[James81]

Originally Posted by RedRain

I'm not sure what you're asking.

I have no idea what the actual truth is. I only know the truth about what I believe.

If you're asking if that is what I believe, then yes, it is what I believe. I believe that people have evil in them and either aren't aware of it or aren't concerned about it. I do, also, believe they hide it.

I've noticed a similar pattern. Although I wouldn't call it evil. I just notice that what is on the surface in a lot of cases is just a show of sorts and what is underneath tends to come out in secret.

I used to get rather bent out of shape about it.

[Lauxa]

RedRain, I wish I could just reach out over the interwebz and give you a big hug. I think so many people living in isolation could find healing through more touch connection to others. I wish I could open a hug parlor where people could come in and get hugged on and feel less alone. I know it doesn't work as well without the physical connection, but consider yourself hugged.

[no pocky for kitty]

Originally Posted by RedRain

I was going to make the title less abrasive, but it was getting in the way of me being honest.

The majority of people I interact with seem very cold-hearted. I'm not just talking about people I interact with in person. I am talking about everyone.

Everyone has a face they put on when interacting with other people, but anyone I start getting to know seems less and less friendly.

There are only a few people in my life who it didn't seem like this was the case with.

I guess I'm trying to say I don't find there are many people who it seems genuinely care about others. To me, it seems most people are only concerned with other people insofar as those other people can help themselves.

I know this seems very judgmental and most people will think it isn't something I can know, but it is what I perceive to be the case and have for a very long time.

I'm not expecting anyone to be of much help, mostly because I find I can't trust what most people say because of the attitude I feel with it, but I guess I am posting this in case anyone has some insight I haven't thought of before.

I am willing to listen, but I may not respond.

I have been there and can understand actually. You have been brainwashed to be negative. Welp?

Its perfectly understandable, being a product of the world. If you want it to change you have to look for the good somewhere; its like watering a plant. Just get out of your head. You are essentially in your own trap. Big deal? you are imperfect just like every human being on the planet. Dont let it phase you. You need to accept the good and the bad in you. If you try to control the "bad"; stuff it in a box it will explode out again, but its nothing to fear. Its just there. The minute you let it be, you will be able to breath. When you're able to enjoy life you have the energy for other people. That space and energy for helping other people has to come from in you, from loving yourself

I know its hard when no one tries for you, but its either that or perpetual **** in the lowest ring of hell. Its like which would you rather have?

Everything can be 100%, you aren't cursed, you're in a double bind probably though

You can get out of it and everything can be great if you find balance in yourself. I'm not saying nurture your evil side, but accept it as a part of being an animal with survival instincts and primitive needs.

All you need to get by everyday is faith that you can do something good for the world. (when you start believing in it) This can outweigh evil on its own. You need evil to be whole or you are starving yourself of some important demands though! If you let the evil control you, scare you, if it becomes your obsession to stuff it in a box it will win; it will just swallow you with fear and consume you even more. Life isn't about being good or bad, but surviving, getting to the top with good selfless decisions. Being the best honestly means helping the community, becuase we are social animals; we look to the person who gets us furthest. Well not sure if this is going to help but good luck.