Please take the time to help me.

[earlybird]

Ok, I have a feeling this is going to be a dragged out post, so don't read on if you can't stand a bit of rambling (or intense elaboration).

This is my first post on the forum. I signed up for it, I think maybe just to vent. I'll probably know what to do after I've written this all down. Here goes.

Me and my girlfriend have been together 17 months now. We're young, though, so it means alot to us. We're far more mature than our ages. 17 going on 27. The first year was brilliant. I'm talking love. I saw myself with her forever. She resonated such perfection.

After a year, I started to notice things. I've always recognised a problem with us from day one. She is a Christian and I am not. In fact, I am very spiritual (and i REALLY struggle to find someone else my age to relate with there; she is the closest I have.) The separating belief is that she believes in hell and I simply do not believe there would be such uncalled for cruelty, as there is no inherent evil. I think this started to creep through after a year, when we couldn't avoid the subject anymore. I read the books called Conversations With God at the start of our relationship and had grown in to these paradigms without her. It was a very spiritually rewarding year. I'm well on my way to a great life, I feel.

We (she) started being a bit more argumentitive. I avoided arguing and spoke to her from my heart. I admitted that I dont "need" her, though she felt she "needed" me. That didn't help. She told me she wanted more emotive responses from me, but I felt I was giving them. I just couldn't bring myself to lie and tell her I couldn't live without her. Because, technically, I could. Anyone can. Maybe this was me digging my grave.

From then on, our relationship hasn't been so good. She doesn't have a great time at home and her back is in dire condition (she refuses to recieve operative treatment as she is afraid, which is a shame as it would improve her so much.) I feel she is living a lie by being religious. She is so compassionate and caring and I know religion holds her back. She feels she needs to abstain from sex (I've forgotten the word for some reason), for example, even though she's told me time after time she can't wait until she's "allowed" to do it. She told me it doesn't make any sense to her and it's just an expression of love, so I told her to go with what she feels, and of course, she gave me the "quiet, horny man" look. I'm actually more bothered that she's shutting her feelings off in this situation than about not having sex. I can express love in other ways for now - I'm not used to sex at the moment, anyway.

Now, here's the recent problem. She's on "holiday" for the Easter Holidays. She's working in a place a few hours away as a waitress. I went over there to see her for a couple of days (she's sharing a caravan with a friend, who happens to be one of my best friends too [she's female, to clarify]). From the first minute I came in she did what's typical of her recently. She was very distant. We went for walks and as I tried to hold her hand she'd let go after a couple of minutes. We used to tease each other all the time, but I stopped doing it of late as she took it too personally, yet she continues to do it. She makes comments which are now beyond teasing and, to be quite honest, are quite degrading if anything. Now I talked to her about this, perhaps slightly too confrontationally, and she got VERY stroppy with me. (this is not unusual these days.) She said that I just always want her to change and that she cant handle that. "I'm not who I used to be and you can't deal with that" I quote. To be fair, I poured my feelings out to her (again) and she didn't take it very well. I've done it before, saying she can be slightly nonchalant when it comes to our relationship in public. If there's an empty seat next to me in college, she'd rather sit a few seats away next to someone she doesn't know very well. WHY? It's odd, because i KNOW she does love me. She says it all the time in private and gets really upset if I don't respond lovingly myself. I'm convinced, deep down, she loves me.

In this caravan site, her and our friend were throwing a staff party in their caravan. That night we made up. She had a little to drink (she rarely does) and got tipsy. That's ok, she was like normal. Actually, perhaps a bit nicer to me than usual. We had a nice time that night (she was aware of what she was doing, she wasn't out of control at all). I don't drink and it was about 2 am, so I said I was going to bed. We said goodnight and I came back out after getting ready for bed to say goodnight to everyone else and I find she's sitting next to some guy with his legs on her and IMO, she was enjoying it a bit too much. She actually seemed to be smiling more with him than she had with me all holiday.
I said nothing and went to bed. I heard someone tell her I seemed a bit annoyed (bless him, at least someone's aware) ands he came in to see me. In fairness I was blowing things out of proportion being upset over it. I admit, I'm overprotective. I told her this and she said she'd come to bed, then. I told her not to worry, I was being silly, but do come back fairly soon or I'll get worried. I tried to get to sleep when she went back out, but they were all very loud. I heard so many things that made me VERY VERY angry. Lots of audible flirting from her and this guy. I heard the other people calling her "jailbait", i.e she's too young for this guy as he is over 18 and she is not, and telling him jokingly to "get off the jailbait". My jealousy here was unexplainable. It was getting to rage; not a good place to me. Eventually I started shivering and experienced the closest I've ever had to despair. I had to go out there. I went out, saying I couldn't sleep, and roll the worst moment of my life. She was sitting up with him, cuddling him, with her head on his shoulder. When she saw me come in, she got up VERY quickly and looked the guiltiest I've ever seen anyone. "I'm going to bed" she said quickly. When we got into the bedroom, she saw me shivering and played the innocent game.

A lot of 'arguing' ensued. I don't argue. I state my feelings. I told her I felt betrayed, because her boyfriend was in one room, and she was flirting with another guy, who has a reputation for being horny and just after one thing. Seems odd for someone who doesn't want sex. At first she claimed she had done nothing wrong. Then she eventually admitted what she did was unfair to me. She asked forgiveness and I said I didn't know if I could. This holiday had been terrible for me and her, as a couple, and I was due to leave the next morning. Can you level with me here; how am I supposed to trust her after that? She told me she likes other guys company and she can't help that. What about my company? She never seems to enjoy my company. So, she's fine being with some random bloke in public, but she claims she doesn't want to leave our friend out when we're holding hands on a walk.

It was a terrible night. Eventually, we sort of 'made up'. We slept together (not sex, to clarify, just fell asleep ) and the next morning she just got up without telling me. The whole of that morning I tried talking to her about it a bit more, because I needed comfort that it was going to be ok. She was fed up apparently, and couldn't be doing with it. I felt this was a really inappropriate way to act to your boyfriend. All my friends there made jokes about it too, they wereon her side, as it looked like i overreacted. She knows I can get jealous. What's ironic is that she gets jealous. If i so much as hug a girl (who I'm really not attracted to, which is obvious to everyone) she'll get s***ty with me. So she knows it was a bad thing to do, but doesn't mind that everyone is against me anyway.

We left on an ok note. It was still to be resolved. Now the last 24 hours for me have been remorseful. Ive sat and thought for a LONG time. I've realised, quite amicably, in my opinion, that I haven't always been right. For a long time, before our first year 'anniversary' came about, she clearly loved me more. She texted, called me more often. She wrote me poems and songs. She asked after me all the time. ANd I was ok with this, but maybe didn't express it back as much. I've grown to love her, it has to be said. Towards the tail end of our first year together, I loved her much more than at first, but then she seemed to go the other way, I guess. I realised this. I called her and told her this and said I was sorry for all that (I don't want to go in to detail, but it wasn't me making it up, I wasn't a great boyfriend.) I said I was willing to give her 100% from now on, forever. I was really raring to give our relationship one last go that would keep it going forever or end it, amen. I told her to not make a decision now, but to call me at some point that night and say if she really wanted us. Because, recently, she really hasn't seem to cared. I said I'd come down again this week and she just said "no I'm really busy and you could spend your time much better." Now THAT doesn't inject much trust, does it? I haven't a clue what she's doing with these older guys. Probably nothing, but at any rate, she knows how I'll be feeling. She could at least say she'd like to but no.
.

[earlybird]

Anyway, no call. Nothing. I'm torn. I was so ready to give it a go. I genuinely think if she put everything in to it like I am prepared to do, in this very moment, it would be a magnificent relationship. But I have nothing. I have a feeling she'll come back after Easter and then say she'll give it a go. Which begs the question, why not tell me that when you were away from me? It makes me feel like she's having her cake and eating it, then coming back to her hometown (where she gets very little male attention other than me, by the way) and having her cake there? Surely this decision to take me or leave me (I said that to her) should have been instant, if she truely still loves me? I'm not sure she does. And I don't want to be in a relationship like that. On the other hand, she always seems to have loved me on a different level that isn't so obvious. She can be very emotional if it seems like I'm going to leave her. This is the first time it's failed to gain a response. Maybe she just needs her space??

Please, someone help me. I'm considering ending the relationship, even though it's going to hurt us both. Does that make any sense? Thank you in advance. If you've read this fair, you may as well write even a line of help or it'll all be wasted!

Sean

[technobeast]

Originally Posted by earlybird

if she truely still loves me? I'm not sure she does. And I don't want to be in a relationship like that. On the other hand, she always seems to have loved me on a different level that isn't so obvious. She can be very emotional if it seems like I'm going to leave her.

Sean,

I think (imho) that you've found the answer. You're not sure she loves you. Anything that doesn't bring faith and trust in the relationship, would only bring harm.
I'm not really the guy to give an advice (never take advice from a man in trouble - :-) and I guess most of the guys here know me from a problem I had with a girl, and still have it), but this is what I would've done. You sound as quite strong and positive person.
I'm sure you're going to do the right thing.


Yours,
Alex

[JHL]

Originally Posted by earlybird

Please, someone help me. I'm considering ending the relationship, even though it's going to hurt us both. Does that make any sense?

Hi Sean, you are remarkably self-aware and mature person and you've clearly thought this through a lot. But in spite of that this must be a very difficult and confusing time for you. Dealing with intense emotions usually is.

Judging from your girlfriends behavior, it would seem like she is somewhat ambivalent towards your relationship at the moment. And that this has been growing over time. At the moment she seems to be responding worryingly well to attention from other males. There could be a couple of reasons for this: the most obvious being that something is amiss in your relationship (which is already clear) and secondly, she's 17 and possible feeling the urge to explore.

But speculating is useless - only she knows what is really driving her behavior. Clearly you are not happy with how things are, and I think her flirting with that other guy was highly inappropriate and extremely painful for you - thats NOT on at all. So this relationship is not working for you, and you are evaluating your options.

For me, there is one option you should exercise before any others - you must have a frank conversation with her and tell her your feelings. And I just wanted to expand on that a bit, based on a couple things you said in your post. She has expressed that she needed you to be more emotive. You said that you told her you didnt "need" her. So what I'm hearing from her, is that she needs to hear more about how you feel towards her and what she means to you. Telling someone you dont "need" them, is a little hard to hear! While I understand where you're coming from, i.e. being a "spiritual" person you are dependent on yourself only and complete etc not everyone is. Sometimes, we all need to feel needed.

If we dont feel our partner needs us somehow, in some way, sometimes - then it can feel like we're living with mr or ms. perfect, and we constantly feel flawed because we sometimes do need other people. Remember, while you may be at a certain level of growth and feel you can entirely depend upon yourself, perhaps she doesnt. Being spiritual also means being able to extend empathy and compassion for others.

What it sounds like you may be doing is placing your need to project an independent, spiritual image of yourself, above her needs. This MAY be something that has contributed to her disconnection from you. Does this seem like a possibility? I could be entirely wrong, but its just something for you to think about.

In conclusion, you sound like a great guy with amazing self-awareness. You deserve someone who loves you and stays faithful to you. It will be painful, to be sure, if things dont work out with her. But remember, its always far more painful in the long run to stay in a relationship that that your (or her) heart isnt in.

[Lychee]

I admitted that I dont "need" her, though she felt she "needed" me. That didn't help. She told me she wanted more emotive responses from me, but I felt I was giving them. I just couldn't bring myself to lie and tell her I couldn't live without her. Because, technically, I could. Anyone can. Maybe this was me digging my grave.

Of course not. You should never say that to someone. Your independence of beliefs resulted in independence of the relationship. When you say that you don't need to be with someone, you are telling them indirectly that you don't WANT to be with them.

...I talked to her about this, perhaps slightly too confrontationally, and she got VERY stroppy with me. (this is not unusual these days.) She said that I just always want her to change and that she cant handle that. "I'm not who I used to be and you can't deal with that" I quote. To be fair, I poured my feelings out to her (again) and she didn't take it very well. I've done it before, saying she can be slightly nonchalant when it comes to our relationship in public. If there's an empty seat next to me in college, she'd rather sit a few seats away next to someone she doesn't know very well. WHY? It's odd, because i KNOW she does love me. She says it all the time in private and gets really upset if I don't respond lovingly myself. I'm convinced, deep down, she loves me.

How did you articulate your feelings? Did you say them in the same way you told her that you didn't need her? Did her nonchalance come in after you told her you didn't need her and could live without her? If so, she is probably trying to prove to you that she doesn't need to be with you either because that's what she thinks you said to her.

My jealousy here was unexplainable. It was getting to rage; not a good place to me. Eventually I started shivering and experienced the closest I've ever had to despair. I had to go out there. I went out, saying I couldn't sleep, and roll the worst moment of my life. She was sitting up with him, cuddling him, with her head on his shoulder. When she saw me come in, she got up VERY quickly and looked the guiltiest I've ever seen anyone. "I'm going to bed" she said quickly. When we got into the bedroom, she saw me shivering and played the innocent game.

I assume that you too love her deep down because of your reaction to this.

A lot of 'arguing' ensued. I don't argue. I state my feelings. I told her I felt betrayed, because her boyfriend was in one room, and she was flirting with another guy, who has a reputation for being horny and just after one thing. Seems odd for someone who doesn't want sex. At first she claimed she had done nothing wrong. Then she eventually admitted what she did was unfair to me. She asked forgiveness and I said I didn't know if I could. This holiday had been terrible for me and her, as a couple, and I was due to leave the next morning. Can you level with me here; how am I supposed to trust her after that? She told me she likes other guys company and she can't help that. What about my company? She never seems to enjoy my company. So, she's fine being with some random bloke in public, but she claims she doesn't want to leave our friend out when we're holding hands on a walk.

I understand, but realize that if you tell someone that you don't need them and can live without them, they will not forget it overnight, especially if the other person feels much differently than you do. She wanted to keep her distance from you to prove that she could do the same with you. Maybe she was aloof because of what you said and she acted this way toward the guy. But I think she is very deeply hurt by what you said to her which explains the behavior. You think that it is nothing and you were being honest, but she does not think the same way as you do. You said things to her in a way which may have translated in her brain a feeling of indifference from your end. Maybe she was confused by your telling her you could live without her and then getting jealous that day.

Your manner of communication is different from hers. Your beliefs her different from hers. Your consciousness is different than hers. When you are trying to teach a student something or explain something to someone, you explain to them on their level of understanding so they can get it. I'm not trying to say she is "lower" than you but she understands things differently.

I felt this was a really inappropriate way to act to your boyfriend. All my friends there made jokes about it too, they wereon her side, as it looked like i overreacted. She knows I can get jealous. What's ironic is that she gets jealous. If i so much as hug a girl (who I'm really not attracted to, which is obvious to everyone) she'll get s***ty with me. So she knows it was a bad thing to do, but doesn't mind that everyone is against me anyway.

Maybe she thinks it was inappropriate for you to tell her you could live without her. Maybe she thinks you don't love her as much as she does.

I said I'd come down again this week and she just said "no I'm really busy and you could spend your time much better." Now THAT doesn't inject much trust, does it? I haven't a clue what she's doing with these older guys. Probably nothing, but at any rate, she knows how I'll be feeling. She could at least say she'd like to but no.

She's hurt.

It makes me feel like she's having her cake and eating it, then coming back to her hometown (where she gets very little male attention other than me, by the way) and having her cake there? Surely this decision to take me or leave me (I said that to her) should have been instant, if she truely still loves me? I'm not sure she does. And I don't want to be in a relationship like that.

Would you want to be in a relationship with someone whom you love so much and they tell you they can live without you and they don't need you?


Your uncertainty in the relationship is because of her recent behavior. Think about the times when you were together the past year or so and things were great. You both went through ups and downs and got through them, didn't you? You are looking at things from a detached perspective which can be helpful, but see things from her point of view. Her boyfriend, whom she loves very much, tells her that he doesn't need her (maybe she thinks that he doesn't want her) and he can live without her. This probably runs counter to what she believes is love.

She may be wondering "Does he love me or not? Does he want to be with me or not?" As much as you are doubting your love, so is she. Her behavior confuses you, your behavior confuses her. Get through the confusion by being honest with her, but with compassion and understanding. Ask her to be honest with you as well.

[earlybird]

Thank you guys for taking the time. They are all very helpful, but different pieces of advice. That's very good, because I'm seeing things in different ways and trying to make a good decision based on those.

The constructive criticism you have given, Lychee, has knocked some sense in to me. I will admit the disconnection has been much stronger since that conversation (it was a fairly long time ago though,) but there was still some before that. In fact, if I elaborate, she claimed to me that the relationship was not as it used to be (this was the time of this conversation.) She said it's all different etc., yet I noticed nothing wrong. I told her this, and that's when the need/want conversation came about. I told her, clearly, that I don't need her, but I most definately want her, and that to me is stronger.

I think my plan of action is to talk to her, like JHL has suggested, when I next see her. I'll talk to her from the most caring and giving point of view; i.e understanding where she is coming from, but also taking my own feelings in to consideration. I think talking about why she feels she likes the company of other guys will help. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if she will think I am just going on about something that should be water under the bridge. If she takes this attitude, I guess it's best to kindly state that she clearly doesn't care for the relationship or my feelings as much as she could, and it's not possible for me to be in a relationship like that and so be it.

This is going to be tough. Breaking up has never been on the cards in my mind like this; but the only constant thing is change

Thanks guys.

[earlybird]

Hi everyone. Just an update. My girlfriend texted me, yes, texted me, yesterday and ended it. I would paste the message but my phone is charging in another room. The gist of it was that she wants to be able to "mess around" with other guys (really nice way to say it) without having to worry. We're only young and she doesn't love me as much as she used to. and "this is the end of the line for us. I'm sorry."

I'm angry. Angry and hurt. I've spent so long on this relationship and worked so hard in the end. Just turns out it wasn't meant to be. She's been hypocritical, saying she doesn't want sex but then spending her time on holiday with guys that are CLEARLY only after one thing (I've met him) and saying she wants us together forever, then turning around the next WEEK and ending it. I guess I could do better. I'm just in that odd phase where I don't know what to do.

Someone please help me with these feelings.

[ZHereford]

Your are understandably hurt.

After putting in so much thought and effort you probably feel betrayed now that it has come to this.

The reality of it is that you knew it was going to end sooner or later, it's just that you thought you'd be the one ending it (maybe you're feeling some rejection right now).

You are very young and this is a learning experience for you. It has taught you things about life, yourself, relationships and what works for you and what doesn't.

You may not feel this now, but this experience is making you a better person.

[smallstar]

Cheers,

I know that feeling very well. You have been used, and it is no excuse that the other party is young and did not do it consciously - she is guilty anyway.

What to say - many young girls use religion as a convenient way to avoid having sex with her bf (as well as they use a bf as a convenient way to avoid having sex with someone else). By convenient I mean that they apply it at will, and they cease to exist immediately if the girl decides. Either avoid them like the Plague, or teach them to play with your rules.

You have been used, and even worse, you have been insulted. She does not consider you man enough for her, and probably never did. Think about that. You lost the game. It hurts, and there is nothing you can really do about it. Now you will at least learn what not to do the next time. Some time in the future, as you have grown wiser, you look into your past and wonder why you did even care.

Have a Dark day,

-SS

[Lychee]

It's clear that you guys weren't meant to be together (for now at least). Perhaps the incompatibility of beliefs and the difference in the level of maturity prevented the relationship from going further. People come into our lives to show us different things and maybe it was her duty to show you different parts of yourself that you wouldn't have known even existed were it not for her. Keep your head up and don't spend time alone for now. Occupy your mind with friends, movies, work, etc.

[Erki]

About the needing vs. wanting - if you tell her(or just about anyone) that you need her, it indicates that she certainly has a value for you. If you tell her that you want her, she might think that you think of her as your favourite toy or something.

Then there's that "being needy" thing that I don't fully grasp yet...

[earlybird]

Smallstar, I am impressed. You managed to, although quite brutally (I am light rather than dark) pinpoint an underlying problem. Perhaps I was not man enough, and I do reflect that I would possibly change that next time. It is often commented I have feminine qualities and I've always seen this as a good thing in a relationship; but I guess there comes a time when one needs to accept their gender and use it to their advantage. It is observable that this person she is probably enjoying at the moment is far more manly, if somewhat less suitable for her in the long run. Also, telling me I lost the game is something quite important to me; I can't possibly know you, but I swear you know me from the way you spoke there.
Additionally, I don't think she's having sex with anyone. This is me overreacting. She spent weeks deciding she would not have sex with me, and it took incredible amounts of willpower on her behalf to the point of her almost being in fits of tears (talk about not listening to your soul). I doubt she would have a paradigm shift that quickly; though nothing's impossible.

Thank you to everyone else as well. You're all speaking truths that I need to hear in order to reinforce them in my mind. I'm currently verging on self pity and I'd rather not get my ego involved as it will cause this pain to last longer. The less time I have to allow my mind to think, the worse this will become; my body and soul are quite balanced at the moment in comparison; I'll go with those.

I'm glad I've found this forum, so thank you, really. There's very little else in my life at the moment that understands things like I do