What's your position on abortion? And why?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by aelle

I'm always bothered by the trump card "there are worse things in the world". Yeah, someone always has it worse than you somehow. You can care about more than one cause at the same time.

I don't see it as something to get upset about though. It doesn't have to take away from the individuals experience, but it can help to keep it in perspective.

[NDN Scholar]

Originally Posted by beast

"So you know what I tell these anti-abortion people? I say 'Hey. Hey. If you think a fetus is more important that a woman, try getting a fetus to wash the ♥♥♥♥♥ stains out of your underwear. For no pay and no pension'" - George Carlin

Heh heh. Fo' sho.

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Yes, awesome points. I never thought about that extra tidbit with demonizing women for having sex, but I fully agree.

Mmmh. If they're so willing to term an abortion as "murder," then they should be even more willing to put me up on trial for crimes against humanity. I can't think of any guy who actually counts the amount of times he wastes away his semen and aborts any potential chance of life. Most of us must be mass murderers, right? The sexism is atrocious.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I didn't take it that way at all!

Yeah, I see how it can be taken a lot of ways. He is right, factually, and perspective is a good thing. Something felt a little off though to me, and i think aelle hit on it, it seemed like he was minimizing it, or even saying "you have no right to talk about such things" or something.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

It's always interesting participating in discussions like these because people are immediately on the defensive. From my experience that hardly ever produces meaningful exchanges. In fact, your response gave me the impression that my entire opinion was invalidated by the fact that I'm not female. In reality, I actually hold pretty high regards for a woman's right to choose. I'm not looking to "trump" the idea of abortion. I'm coming at the idea of abortion as it is currently being debated in the mainstream. Nobody is really addressing the issues you are bringing up like back alley abortions. Instead we are spinning our tires trying to decide where life begins. If we were to address it in the way that you are framing it, that would actually be a reasonable problem to address. As it stands right now, we are just wasting time and needlessly polarizing people.

I had no intention of dismissing your opinion because you are a man. I wanted to address your idea that talking about abortion was somehow a purely intellectual debate "looking for problems where there aren't any", which seems very removed from reality as I experienced it.

I also thought you were criticizing the 3 pages of discussion we'd been having rather than the mainstream debate. And even then, I don't know what you mean by mainstream. Pretty much all the discussions I've had on the topic addressed facts, statistics and real-life situations including these back-alley abortions.

Originally Posted by bene4310

Well, no offense, but fortunately you are in the minority.

Would you share with us why you think limiting bodily autonomy is fortunate?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Yeah, I see how it can be taken a lot of ways. He is right, factually, and perspective is a good thing. Something felt a little off though to me, and i think aelle hit on it, it seemed like he was minimizing it, or even saying "you have no right to talk about such things" or something.

You have all the right in the world to talk about it. The way it is traditionally discussed however is usually completely unproductive. That is what I was trying to get at.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by bene4310

Why aren't similar claims made in other cases? We don't consider suicide, drug use, prostitution, and self-harm private decisions in which the logic of "It's my body, not yours" is acceptable. We think these behaviors are either immoral or unhealthy, so we oppose them.

It just seems like a tactic to stifle debate and shame those who believe in right and wrong. I am not a woman, and it's not my uterus, but does that mean I have to be indifferent to what I believe to be the objective evil of killing nascent human life?

Speak for your self I don't see anything wrong with these decisions. I don't feel as if this conversation is stifling debate btw. It seems everyone in this thread shares your values regarding human life. We just have different opinions on how to protect it. I think pro-lifers and pro-choicers share quite the bit in common so it strikes me as strange how 'opposed' they are to each other. Why not find meaningful solutions together that enable women and men to bring a child into this world on good terms? Why not work together to preserve the lives of women? Both parties value human life. Saying otherwise refuses to acknowledge the other on their terms.

[bene4310]

Originally Posted by aelle

Would you share with us why you think limiting bodily autonomy is fortunate?

Sometimes people harm themselves due to unfortunate circumstances or distorted thinking. I would do everything in my power to stop someone from committing suicide. I would do the same if it were an addiction, prostitution, or self-inflicted harm. I don't recognize anyone's right to subject themselves to these behaviors.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by bene4310

There is a belief here which seems to be uncritically assumed: abortion is a private decision in which no one but the mother has any say. I think this needs to be backed up and not just forced on the conversation. Why aren't similar claims made in other cases? We don't consider suicide, drug use, prostitution, and self-harm private decisions in which the logic of "It's my body, not yours" is acceptable.We think these behaviors are either immoral or unhealthy, so we oppose them.

It just seems like a tactic to stifle debate and shame those who believe in right and wrong. I am not a woman, and it's not my uterus, but does that mean I have to be indifferent to what I believe to be the objective evil of killing nascent human life?

People have backed up the assertion. In what ways do you think that was in adequate?

Unhealthy for the most part of the things you mentioned, but that doesn't mean I "oppose" them any more than I "oppose" eating cheeseburgers. In fact, there might be more widespread consequences to a McBurger than a joint.

"It's my body, not yours" absolutely works in the cases you named, although a couple are a bit more nuanced. Abortion is nuanced as well, but when it comes to the law "It's my body, not yours" works again.

You seem to imply that those with beliefs different than yours don't believe in right and wrong, do you not? That's not necessarily the case, and I don't sense an attempt to shame. Of course, any belief, said confidently can occur like an attempt to shame to those that disagree: it's not necessarily anyone's intention though, especially in a thread specifically devoted to sharing opinions.

And you of course have the right to believe whatever you want. In fact, if you could expound on why you believe that, that would be great, as it's the subject of this thread.

[NDN Scholar]

Originally Posted by bene4310

Sometimes people harm themselves due to unfortunate circumstances or distorted thinking. I would do everything in my power to stop someone from committing suicide. I would do the same if it were an addiction, prostitution, or self-inflicted harm. I don't recognize anyone's right to subject themselves to these behaviors.

Why?

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You have all the right in the world to talk about it. The way it is traditionally discussed however is usually completely unproductive. That is what I was trying to get at.

Well, I can't speak on anyone elses behalf, but I've found this brief discussion productive already. It prompted me to consider viewpoints I have never considered before. I trust that other people talking about these sort of issues find it productive (even if it is just to 'boost' their egos) as well in some way. Otherwise, they wouldn't do it.

[beast]

bene, do you believe it's distorted thinking that leads women to want abortions? I am genuinely curious.

I do hope that you can see the difference between wanting to protect loved ones from making irrevocable decisions (like suicide) and judging those who have done so to be immoral. I don't think that suicide, drug use, or prostitution are immoral, and fortunately, there are many people out there who agree with me.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by beast

bene, do you believe it's distorted thinking that leads women to want abortions? I am genuinely curious.

I do hope that you can see the difference between wanting to protect loved ones from making irrevocable decisions (like suicide) and judging those who have done so to be immoral. I don't think that suicide, drug use, or prostitution are immoral, and fortunately, there are many people out there who agree with me.

+1

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by bene4310

Sometimes people harm themselves due to unfortunate circumstances or distorted thinking. I would do everything in my power to stop someone from committing suicide. I would do the same if it were an addiction, prostitution, or self-inflicted harm. I don't recognize anyone's right to subject themselves to these behaviors.

Really? So are you willing to step up to the plate and give women and men the resources needed in order to bring children into this world on good terms? Whether it be through a streamlined adoption service, alleviation of poverty, adequate family planning or what ever else may work? Are you willing to live up to your values instead of unreasonably imposing your expectations onto women?

[aelle]

Originally Posted by bene4310

Sometimes people harm themselves due to unfortunate circumstances or distorted thinking. I would do everything in my power to stop someone from committing suicide. I would do the same if it were an addiction, prostitution, or self-inflicted harm. I don't recognize anyone's right to subject themselves to these behaviors.

This reminds me of a gossip going around my high school about a certain girl who was, how shall I put it, popular with the boys. Of course we were all evolved and compassionate girls, quite liberal too, so we wouldn't engage in sl*t shaming. Oh no. Instead, we engaged in sl*t pitying. "Poor L., we liked to say, she must have some big self esteem issues to sleep around like that. She may even have been sexually abused, and now she's acting out. I mean, no one in their right mind would behave the way she does, surely she must have mental health issues. I feel really sorry for her. I wish we could help her."

You know what? L. was perfectly in her right mind, and we were condescending little b*tches.We just didn't understand at the time that some people may have different preferences in what they want to do with their body, their relationships, their life, and that as long as they don't hurt someone else in the process, it is strictly their right to make different choices than their peers. Good for L. for enjoying herself. Shame on me for thinking that if she did something I couldn't then imagine doing, she must have been ill.

[beast]

Originally Posted by aelle

I'm always bothered by the trump card "there are worse things in the world". Yeah, someone always has it worse than you somehow. You can care about more than one cause at the same time.

I hear ya. It seems like the only purpose of that phrase is to shut down communication. Most of us are aware that there are genocides going on and that they are terrible, so perhaps Chris could make a thread devoted to people being hacked up by machetes. I would be eager to read it. Abortion remains a big issue for me, and the fact that a uterusless person is telling us to simmer down definitely gives me the willies.

[bene4310]

I don't have a lot of time, so please excuse me for answering selectively.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Really? So are you willing to step up to the plate and give women and men the resources needed in order to bring children into this world on good terms? Whether it be through a streamlined adoption service, alleviation of poverty, adequate family planning or what ever else may work? Are you willing to live up to your values instead of unreasonably imposing your expectations onto women?

Your questions assume I'm not doing anything already, so I can't answer them. I support our parish pregnancy center financially and am personally involved in our ecumenical food pantry, soup kitchen, and distribution of care packages to low-income families.

Originally Posted by beast

bene, do you believe it's distorted thinking that leads women to want abortions? I am genuinely curious.

Yes, I do.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by bene4310

Your questions assume I'm not doing anything already, so I can't answer them. I support our parish pregnancy center financially and am personally involved in our ecumenical food pantry, soup kitchen, and distribution of care packages to low-income families.

Good for you I respect you for that.

[beast]

I respect your efforts, bene, but I think we're at an impasse here. I don't know what I can say to a guy who believes that, I just don't.

[jeff18wall]

Pro-choice. I will never have an abortion or be faced with the decision of whether to have one or not. So it is not my place to tell a women what she should do with her body.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by bene4310

Your questions assume I'm not doing anything already, so I can't answer them. I support our parish pregnancy center financially and am personally involved in our ecumenical food pantry, soup kitchen, and distribution of care packages to low-income families.

I use to work in a St. Vincent de Paul back in Ontario and I've considered working in a soup kitchen here in Alberta. But although I admire their good will, I question whether their efforts alleviate the structural causes of poverty. I think universal education and health care may be more effective solutions (though they are definately not the 'absolute' answer by any means). What do you think?

Does your parish pregnancy center support the use of contraceptives?

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by bene4310

Yes, I do.

What's your reasoning behind that?

[aelle]

I think these testimonials of pro-life activists who choose to have an abortion, and of the doctors who treat them, may be an interesting contribution to the discussion. There are also stats on the rates of pro-life women among abortion patients:

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Yeah, I see how it can be taken a lot of ways. He is right, factually, and perspective is a good thing. Something felt a little off though to me, and i think aelle hit on it, it seemed like he was minimizing it, or even saying "you have no right to talk about such things" or something.

Yeah, I can see that. If I'd been concentrating on his words more intently I may have taken it that way too. I was at work, and kinda was watching the debate, but also working, so I may not have picked up on those tones that you and aelle did?

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by James81

It can be a necessary evil (don't get too hung up on that word evil, I'm just using the expression loosely). That is, given the way our society is right now, I can see why it's necessary. In a perfect world, it would be unnecessary.

My main issue is that people are unwilling to call it what it is: killing a potential baby. And my issues with the prochoice side have always surrounded that, but in every discussion I've had about it, they try to make it about a womans rights issue, which it is, but it is ALSO a baby's rights issue too. I don't believe in the arguements that say it's not a person or that it's not alive. And that is not up for debate IMO. It is a person and it is alive. Period.

I agree James!

I do understand that there are times when abortion seems like the best choice, and I don't condemn other women for the decision to have an abortion. I know that not everyone feels the way I do, and thus have to make their own decisions and form their own belief systems.

However, I DO believe in calling a spade a spade... and in doing so, calling abortion what it is. It IS killing a potential human being. I also don't agree with the arguments that say it isn't a human yet or it isn't yet alive or whatever... if left alone, it will be a human being in a relatively short amount of time!

I also don't see it as a women's rights issue. I'm all for women's rights, but that doesn't mean I'm against unborn baby rights!

Ohh... and I also certainly don't believe in banning or criminalizing abortion! I'm was horrified when I read of some girl from Queensland who was up on some charges, cause she'd gone across the border into NSW to have an abortion. I can't believe this stuff still occurs... I didn't even realise it wasn't legal in Queensland to have an abortion! So, while on one side I'm against abortion personally... I'm horrified to read of cases where women are actually punished for choosing to have abortions!

[bene4310]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I use to work in a St. Vincent de Paul back in Ontario and I've considered working in a soup kitchen here in Alberta. But although I admire their good will, I question whether their efforts alleviate the structural causes of poverty. I think universal education and health care may be more effective solutions (though they are definately not the 'absolute' answer by any means). What do you think?

Does your parish pregnancy center support the use of contraceptives?

To clarify, my parish is Catholic, so the pregnancy center provides alternatives to artificial contraception and does not recommend any kind of artificial contraception to clients.

I know there are other questions here for me, but I am going to withdraw myself from the thread. I hate to be a hit-and-run debater, but I don't want to entrench myself in the discussion. I posted against my better judgment; I usually only discuss this issue offline because I find it's usually more civil and relaxed. If anyone really wants an answer to a question they posted, however, please PM me and I will address it there.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by votoshka

However, I DO believe in calling a spade a spade... and in doing so, calling abortion what it is. It IS killing a potential human being. I also don't agree with the arguments that say it isn't a human yet or it isn't yet alive or whatever... if left alone, it will be a human being in a relatively short amount of time!

It's all semantics. Is it a potential human life? Yes. Are we agreed there are some circumstances wherein it's better to keep it from being born? Yep. Whatever you call it the outcome is the same.

I'm never going to see a lump of cells as a life in the sense we're talking about. You can call it like you see it but I'm just gonna do the same thing. Looking at it one way or the other does nothing to lessen the weight of the decision nor does it eliminate the circumstances which make it preferable compared to birthing a full-blown kid.

Do some people bs themselves with this line of thinking? Sure, we all do it with some things. It's how we cope. However, saying a fetus is not a person prior to a certain point is not bs in itself. You can disagree with the reasoning but there's a basis for it and it exists in the gray.

If you guys are arguing that we shouldn't let ourselves become desensitized then yeah, nobody's gonna argue that. It's just that getting this picky over word choices isn't going to further the debate.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by votoshka

I also don't see it as a women's rights issue. I'm all for women's rights, but that doesn't mean I'm against unborn baby rights!

I think abortion becomes a women rights issue when pro-lifers eliminate the right to abortion as doing so relocates the harm done onto the woman (i.e back alley abortions). Why do women have to lose the freedom to control their bodies and their lives in order to protect baby rights? It doesn’t seem necessary in my mind. Many of the policies that would actually reduce abortion (I.e teaching the effective use of contraception) would also help women take ownership of their bodies, sexuality, and ultimately, their lives. I don’t think ‘baby rights’ and ‘women rights’ have to be in opposition to each other necessarily.

[Andrew Gubb]

I'm not sure, I would have to be in the situation. But I heard somewhere from a channelled source that humans were always meant to be able to control conception anyway. That kind of felt right to me, and recently I've been doing what I normally do (condom and thermometer method) while holding a sense of faith that my gf will never get pregnant until she decides to. We've told the souls above we're not ready for a baby atm, so why the heck would they come down? Who comes where they're not wanted?

So as for abortion, I kind of feel that something insanely terrible doesn't need to happen. Would I kill the fetus? In part it's more my gf's decision than mine, but if it were mine... I'm really not sure. I can only feel what my heart says in the moment of choice. Until I'm in that moment, I really don't know what I'd do.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by rei

Oh, and I would also say, I think in certain situations it might be nice if there were regulations related to the would-be father. However that's also a sticky line. What if he raped his wife and she's gearing up to leave him after years of abuse (but he's also been skilled at the abuse so no evidence exists, making it invisible as a crime to law enforcement)? What if he is a misogynist who doesn't believe she is fully human so she is incapable of making such a decision?

What if she had a valium addiction that she managed to keep hidden from the authorities or whatever, what if she intended to use most of the child support payments from him on herself, what if she doesn't believe that he is fully human, what if she doesn't have the will to raise the child and instead leaves them both after some time, what if ...

Tell me how your examples aren't something that can be said about absolutely any law, and any type of person.


I'll propose a "law"... The woman may have all the rights to abort or keep it, and the man has the right to withdraw from any responsibility, including paying child support. If he chooses to withdraw from all responsibility, he may never be involved with the childs life ever again, unless the woman permits it. There might be some child support, maybe for the infant years or something.
I can think of some arguments that can be raised against it, and maybe there are no viable choices other than the woman having all reproductive choice and the man none, for the childs well-being, but I'll just leave it like this for now.

[Elrond]

YouTube - Very Funny Stand up Comedy from Chris Rock about Abortions