What's your position on abortion? And why?

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by beast

I just wanted to quote this for emphasis, and reiterate how important this distinction is for me. It always gets me a little when people preface their statements by saying, "well, personally I'm against abortion but..." Personally, I'm against 2 in 1 shampoo conditioners, jeggings, poodles, and skim milk, but it really doesn't matter and it really isn't relevant. Framing an argument in that manner always seems like a way of casting judgment on a woman's very personal decision.

I think it's an attempt to deflect the whole "So you would kill your baby!? " attitude. At least that's how I used to use it.

[beast]

I don't think that people's personal opinions are relevant to the issue. Sure, they can be fascinating to debate and listen to, but they do not provide a solid basis for creating legislation.

It seems like many, many pro-choicers feel the need to preface their arguments in favor of the legality of abortion by saying "personally, I think it's wrong" or something of the sort. I think that, once we frame the discourse in this way, we're already casting judgment on a decision which is really none of our business. It makes me deeply uncomfortable. I don't like passing moral judgments on private decisions that other women make.

If it's still unclear, I'm sorry. I slept for three hours last night and that's the best I can do.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by beast

I am firmly pro-choice, and strongly against any attempts to bring rape and incest into the debate. Absolutely, rape is a horrible crime and no woman should ever be forced to carry her rapist's fetus to term - but I don't believe that women in this situation have any more or less of a right to obtain abortions as women who engaged in consensual sex. I think that, by framing the debate in this way ("pro-life except in cases of rape or incest"), all we're really doing is demonizing women for choosing to have sex. I can't get behind that - the circumstances of conception are absolutely not relevant to me.

I can sympathize with how heart-wrenching it would be for a man who felt that his partner aborted his child against his will. The only solution I can think of is to discuss these manners beforehand, wrap it up, and hope for the best. There's no easy solution here, but the decision must fall fully in the hands of the person carrying and bearing the child.

If rape hadn't been a realistic part of the discussion I might be on the other side of this issue. Not now, with what I know and the thought processes I've gone through, but it took a friend of a friend committing suicide over her incestuous rape, and subsequent denial of access to an abortion (minors must get parental consent in my state) for me to consider the other side of this issue. I was raised religiously and that mind**** runs deep.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by beast

Absolutely, rape is a horrible crime and no woman should ever be forced to carry her rapist's fetus to term - but I don't believe that women in this situation have any more or less of a right to obtain abortions as women who engaged in consensual sex. I think that, by framing the debate in this way ("pro-life except in cases of rape or incest"), all we're really doing is demonizing women for choosing to have sex. I can't get behind that - the circumstances of conception are absolutely not relevant to me.

Agreed, and that's an eloquent way to put it. It has always disturbed me how some pro-lifers frame pregnancy as a punishment for women who have sex (and that's what bringing non-consensual sex in the disscussion reinforces: you wanted to have sex, now deal with it!) Is this really the most compassionate, caring way to think of a child-to-be?

Originally Posted by beast

I just wanted to quote this for emphasis, and reiterate how important this distinction is for me. It always gets me a little when people preface their statements by saying, "well, personally I'm against abortion but..." Personally, I'm against 2 in 1 shampoo conditioners, jeggings, poodles, and skim milk, but it really doesn't matter and it really isn't relevant. Framing an argument in that manner always seems like a way of casting judgment on a woman's very personal decision.

To be fair, the topic is "your position on abortion" and not specifically "your opinion on abortion laws". I think it's relevant to discuss your experiences, ethical position and hypothetical decisions separately from your opinion of the law. The fact that, in the place I am in my life right now, I would not abort an unplanned pregnancy (barring medical complications) is not at all a judgement on those who would. I support them fully in their choice.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by rei

Adoption is easier on the biological mother than it is on adoptive parents.

One of the couples in the Teen Mom series has been having a wretched time giving their baby up, and I can imagine it'd be the same for many couples. Whereas adoptive parents that are assumingly emotionally ready, financially stable, and in a good position to accept and love a child... I fail to see how it's harder on them? Everything is situational, of course, but really?

Originally Posted by beast

I am firmly pro-choice, and strongly against any attempts to bring rape and incest into the debate. Absolutely, rape is a horrible crime and no woman should ever be forced to carry her rapist's fetus to term - but I don't believe that women in this situation have any more or less of a right to obtain abortions as women who engaged in consensual sex. I think that, by framing the debate in this way ("pro-life except in cases of rape or incest"), all we're really doing is demonizing women for choosing to have sex. I can't get behind that - the circumstances of conception are absolutely not relevant to me.

I can sympathize with how heart-wrenching it would be for a man who felt that his partner aborted his child against his will. The only solution I can think of is to discuss these manners beforehand, wrap it up, and hope for the best. There's no easy solution here, but the decision must fall fully in the hands of the person carrying and bearing the child.

Yes, awesome points. I never thought about that extra tidbit with demonizing women for having sex, but I fully agree.

[beast]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

I think it's an attempt to deflect the whole "So you would kill your baby!? " attitude. At least that's how I used to use it.

I understand why people do it, and where that need comes from. I also know how helpful it can be to find a middle-ground with the people that you're debating. Most of all, I don't like it because it reiterates the assumption that abortion is an immoral decision, and I absolutely do not believe that to be the case. But I also feel deeply uncomfortable with the idea that our personal feelings should matter when we're drafting legislation about what other women do with their bodies.

[beast]

Originally Posted by aelle

To be fair, the topic is "your position on abortion" and not specifically "your opinion on abortion laws". I think it's relevant to discuss your experiences, ethical position and hypothetical decisions separately from your opinion of the law. The fact that, in the place I am in my life right now, I would not abort an unplanned pregnancy (barring medical complications) is not at all a judgement on those who would. I support them fully in their choice.

I didn't get the sense that you were casting judgment at all! I'm sorry if it seemed like I was directing that at you, I absolutely wasn't. I just don't like the debate being framed in this way at all. It wasn't even a comment on any one particular poster, just a vibe I've gotten from every single abortion debate that I've ever been involved in.

[rei]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

One of the couples in the Teen Mom series has been having a wretched time giving their baby up, and I can imagine it'd be the same for many couples. Whereas adoptive parents that are assumingly emotionally ready, financially stable, and in a good position to accept and love a child... I fail to see how it's harder on them? Everything is situational, of course, but really?

It is emotionally and financially draining for couples. Many places have very long waiting lists. Many couples get their hopes crushed by pregnant women who reneg. Just because the would-be adoptive parents are financially ready and emotionally mature doesn't mean it can't also be a very exhausting process for them as well. Lots of grief and loss all around, and they don't even have the guarantee of the process bringing them success.

It seems to take a perfect storm for a successful adoption among those couples who aren't willing or able to adopt from another country.

And see we have here a sense that anyone with any kind of personal exposure to one side of it seems to feel that side has the most trouble with the process. It's a highly evocative topic, just to see it as an observer. Imagine how emotional it would be to experience it directly from either side!

[rei]

Thanks for clarifying, beast. I think you have an elegantly framed perspective on the issue.

aelle your recent posts, along with beast's, also helped me see that I had internalized some of the personal responsibility rhetoric on this topic. It really is framed as a punishment for having sex sometimes.

Thank you both for helping me open my eyes a little, even if it's toward the position I was already taking in this matter.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by rei

It is emotionally and financially draining for couples. Many places have very long waiting lists. Many couples get their hopes crushed by pregnant women who reneg. Just because the would-be adoptive parents are financially ready and emotionally mature doesn't mean it can't also be a very exhausting process for them as well. Lots of grief and loss all around, and they don't even have the guarantee of the process bringing them success.

It seems to take a perfect storm for a successful adoption among those couples who aren't willing or able to adopt from another country.

And see we have here a sense that anyone with any kind of personal exposure to one side of it seems to feel that side has the most trouble with the process. It's a highly evocative topic, just to see it as an observer. Imagine how emotional it would be to experience it directly from either side!

I know a family who adopted a girl from China with a cleft pallet and a black boy--both around two years old. They were very financially stable (rich background) and emotionally mature (had already raised kids), and were adopting kids who aren't 'in demand' (so sad that...I can't find another way to put it, so sad that it is). Even for them it was a long hard process.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by rei

It is emotionally and financially draining for couples. Many places have very long waiting lists. Many couples get their hopes crushed by pregnant women who reneg. Just because the would-be adoptive parents are financially ready and emotionally mature doesn't mean it can't also be a very exhausting process for them as well. Lots of grief and loss all around, and they don't even have the guarantee of the process bringing them success.

It seems to take a perfect storm for a successful adoption among those couples who aren't willing or able to adopt from another country.

And see we have here a sense that anyone with any kind of personal exposure to one side of it seems to feel that side has the most trouble with the process. It's a highly evocative topic, just to see it as an observer. Imagine how emotional it would be to experience it directly from either side!

Yeah, I would agree that there are heinous experiences on both sides of the equation, I just wouldn't say one is definitively easier than the other. I'm not privy to anyone's personal life with these matters, not in any sort of way that qualifies me to form a conclusion about who has it better.

[rei]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Yeah, I would agree that there are heinous experiences on both sides of the equation, I just wouldn't say one is definitively easier than the other. I'm not privy to anyone's personal life with these matters, not in any sort of way that qualifies me to form a conclusion about who has it better.

Oh, I wasn't intending to say or even imply that either side of the process has it better.

The birth mother has what the others want, so in that sense she has some leverage. They are often able to pay for her medical care and such. But I would agree it's probably hard for everyone involved. Financially, though, perhaps easier on the birth mother (big ?? on that). And that is assuming she is even able to go through her end of the process as intended (carry to term and give the baby to someone or a group that is supposed to have its best interests in mind).

I'm not such an authority on this anyway. I have seen couples post on adoption websites... it is kinda sad and moving. Several even said it was okay if the child came out addicted to drugs.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by beast

I didn't get the sense that you were casting judgment at all! I'm sorry if it seemed like I was directing that at you, I absolutely wasn't.

Not at all! I was just bringing myself up as an example because, well, I can.

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

One of the couples in the Teen Mom series has been having a wretched time giving their baby up, and I can imagine it'd be the same for many couples. Whereas adoptive parents that are assumingly emotionally ready, financially stable, and in a good position to accept and love a child... I fail to see how it's harder on them? Everything is situational, of course, but really?

Ha! I watched this too.
Apparently it's soomething that's very hushed by the adoption industry, but giving up your biological child can be insanely traumatic for the birth mother. Moreso than aborting, in many cases. Of course it must be very situational, but apparently there's a lot less support for birth mothers than for women who abort. Having done a good deep is supposed to be the end-all solution to post partum depression and all the psychological complications of your decision.

I have a friend who gave a child up for adoption. She and her boyfriend spent the next 2 years doing drugs to numb the pain. Of course her life was not conducive to practicing safe sex and she got pregnant again. She chose to have an abortion that time, and it gave her the push she needed to start a therapy and get her ♥♥♥♥♥ together.

But I can see how it swings both ways. I know of a family that adopted several children from less developped countries, including a son from Korea. They helped all their kids find their birth mothers when they were adults, and were completely shocked to find out that the Korean birth family was very well off, maybe even wealthier than them. The son was simply abandonned because he was illegitimate. The adoptive parents had a very hard time dealing with the fact that they didn't save a child from a life of poverty like they imagined.

[rei]

Originally Posted by aelle

The adoptive parents had a very hard time dealing with the fact that they didn't save a child from a life of poverty like they imagined.

Oh wow, yeah I bet that was difficult for them.

And yes, I can say from the social service standpoint I've seen a lot more supportive resources for women who terminate than for those who go with adoption. Except, in the bible belt, there's a lot of groups there specifically to steer girls to adopt. I get the sense they have decent support up to the adoption but after there's not really any follow up.

Like it is really just a side effect of living out ideology without very much thought into the humanity of all the humans involved. That's the taste it gives me anyway.

I'm not sure how I would handle it if I worked for an agency that had a pro-life agenda and was required to only discuss options other than termination with pregnant women. Don't think I'd be down with that.

[inri]

Originally Posted by beast

But I also feel deeply uncomfortable with the idea that our personal feelings should matter when we're drafting legislation about what other women do with their bodies.

Beautifully said!

If I believe abortion is morally wrong, then I best make sure 'I' never have one myself, however, who am I to take my version of morality and hold another woman hostage to it? It would be extremely arrogant to assume that Simply because abortion affects my sensibilities in a certain way, that my truth should affect the personal experience and physicality of another woman.

The only question should be; Does a woman have a right to manage her own body as she sees fit or not. If the answer is 'yes'...then all conversation and debate should end. While disagreement abounds regarding whether or not a fetus is a full-fledged human being deserving of rights, no such disagreement exists regarding a fully developed woman.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by inri

While disagreement abounds regarding whether or not a fetus is a full-fledged human being deserving of rights, no such disagreement exists regarding a fully developed woman.

This was beautifully said!

[beast]

Absolutely, and now for something not quite so beautiful, but always funny and to-the-point:

"So you know what I tell these anti-abortion people? I say 'Hey. Hey. If you think a fetus is more important that a woman, try getting a fetus to wash the ♥♥♥♥♥ stains out of your underwear. For no pay and no pension'" - George Carlin

[beast]

Originally Posted by rei

Thanks for clarifying, beast. I think you have an elegantly framed perspective on the issue.

aelle your recent posts, along with beast's, also helped me see that I had internalized some of the personal responsibility rhetoric on this topic. It really is framed as a punishment for having sex sometimes.

Thank you both for helping me open my eyes a little, even if it's toward the position I was already taking in this matter.

Thank you!

[ChrisGinsburg]

My position on abortion is that it's a personal decision made by a specific individual just like any other decision. Digging deeper than that just creates unnecessary arguments. It's one of those discussions that draws all of the people on their high horses to blast everyone with their beliefs.

The very fact that we even have the time and luxury to debate abortion sheds light on how privileged we really are. There are people being hacked to death by machetes even in this day and age. Do you think they stop to think for a second where life begins? I think we need to stop going and looking for problems where there aren't any and deal with the problems we already do have.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

My position on abortion is that it's a personal decision made by a specific individual just like any other decision. Digging deeper than that just creates unnecessary arguments. It's one of those discussions that draws all of the people on their high horses to blast everyone with their beliefs.

The very fact that we even have the time and luxury to debate abortion sheds light on how privileged we really are. There are people being hacked to death by machetes even in this day and age. Do you think they stop to think for a second where life begins? I think we need to stop going and looking for problems where there aren't any and deal with the problems we already do have.

Well said.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

The very fact that we even have the time and luxury to debate abortion sheds light on how privileged we really are. There are people being hacked to death by machetes even in this day and age. Do you think they stop to think for a second where life begins? I think we need to stop going and looking for problems where there aren't any and deal with the problems we already do have.

Excuse me? You might be privileged on the question by your lack of uterus, but I, for one, think that the deaths of women from the consequences of a back-alley abortion, or who commit suicide because it feels less terrifying than bearing this child, or who die from pregnancy complications that would have stopped if the pregnancy had ended, matter just as much as your machete hackings.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by aelle

Excuse me? You might be privileged on the question by your lack of uterus, but I, for one, think that the deaths of women from the consequences of a back-alley abortion, or who commit suicide because it feels less terrifying than bearing this child, or who die from pregnancy complications that would have stopped if the pregnancy had ended, matter just as much as your machete hackings.

Yeah, there was something just a little skeevy about that comment to me (and I'm usually fine with the reminder of my privilege), and I think it was this.

This is an issue of dissolving privileged as well, and shouldn't be trivialized because it's not the only area privilege exists.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by aelle

Excuse me? You might be privileged on the question by your lack of uterus, but I, for one, think that the deaths of women from the consequences of a back-alley abortion, or who commit suicide because it feels less terrifying than bearing this child, or who die from pregnancy complications that would have stopped if the pregnancy had ended, matter just as much as your machete hackings.

Here come the high horses. Mind you I don't disagree with what you have said.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

This is an issue of dissolving privileged as well, and shouldn't be trivialized because it's not the only area privilege exists.

I'm always bothered by the trump card "there are worse things in the world". Yeah, someone always has it worse than you somehow. You can care about more than one cause at the same time.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by aelle

I'm always bothered by the trump card "there are worse things in the world". Yeah, someone always has it worse than you somehow. You can care about more than one cause at the same time.

Verily.

[bene4310]

There is a belief here which seems to be uncritically assumed: abortion is a private decision in which no one but the mother has any say. I think this needs to be backed up and not just forced on the conversation. Why aren't similar claims made in other cases? We don't consider suicide, drug use, prostitution, and self-harm private decisions in which the logic of "It's my body, not yours" is acceptable. We think these behaviors are either immoral or unhealthy, so we oppose them.

It just seems like a tactic to stifle debate and shame those who believe in right and wrong. I am not a woman, and it's not my uterus, but does that mean I have to be indifferent to what I believe to be the objective evil of killing nascent human life?

[aelle]

Originally Posted by bene4310

There is a belief here which seems to be uncritically assumed: abortion is a private decision in which no one but the mother has any say. I think this needs to be backed up and not just forced on the conversation. Why aren't similar claims made in other cases? We don't consider suicide, drug use, prostitution, and self-harm private decisions in which the logic of "It's my body, not yours" is acceptable. We think these behaviors are either immoral or unhealthy, so we oppose them.

It just seems like a tactic to stifle debate and shame those who believe in right and wrong. I am not a woman, and it's not my uterus, but does that mean I have to be indifferent to what I believe to be the objective evil of killing nascent human life?

You may. I don't.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by aelle

Excuse me? You might be privileged on the question by your lack of uterus

It's always interesting participating in discussions like these because people are immediately on the defensive. From my experience that hardly ever produces meaningful exchanges. In fact, your response gave me the impression that my entire opinion was invalidated by the fact that I'm not female. In reality, I actually hold pretty high regards for a woman's right to choose. I'm not looking to "trump" the idea of abortion. I'm coming at the idea of abortion as it is currently being debated in the mainstream. Nobody is really addressing the issues you are bringing up like back alley abortions. Instead we are spinning our tires trying to decide where life begins. If we were to address it in the way that you are framing it, that would actually be a reasonable problem to address. As it stands right now, we are just wasting time and needlessly polarizing people.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Yeah, there was something just a little skeevy about that comment to me (and I'm usually fine with the reminder of my privilege), and I think it was this.

This is an issue of dissolving privileged as well, and shouldn't be trivialized because it's not the only area privilege exists.

I didn't take it that way at all!

[bene4310]

Originally Posted by aelle

You may. I don't.

Well, no offense, but fortunately you are in the minority.