What's your position on abortion? And why?

[ZephyrusX]

Well, on second thought, I suppose I'd agree with this. Belief informs how we will act as human beings not the truth. I think that is why I found the liberal arts and humanities more interesting than science.

All the more reason why we ought to support the infrastructure that will promote choice though.

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

I think it boils down to belief. It runs deeper. If you believe that foetuses have wills and actually are beings, you will want to protect them. Why do you say they are not beings? That they have no will? What does our scientific understanding have to say on the matter?

PS. Don't miss your dinner!!

[MariconesUnited]

Just don't forget that your beliefs inform your choices as well Zephy!

By the way, maybe you eat fast...Or maybe I've been procrastinating and haven't seen the time pass

[ZephyrusX]

Yes, it does.

On the other hand, belief that fails to reference empiricism is only self-referential. Similar to how love that fails to reference another being is merely self-referential. Even if belief does shape human behaviour, it doesn't mean that truth should not be our guiding principle.

I'm hesitant to say that there is a objective basis behind human morality, however.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

lol derek left me a negative rep for this. He accuses ME of taking things to personally.

Ironic.

I have to say, that you are one of the only people on this forum who doesn't take anything personally...ever. At least I have never witnessed it. You might be a real sook in your offline life though...who knows?

[Moriarty]

While we still have one element of free choice, then i feel we also have the right to decide about bringing a life into this world. How can we judge others decisions while not knowing their reasons behind such a choice? Who gives anyone the right to judge such an important thing as this?

There are always plenty of do-gooders in this world who are quick to judge others without ever having gone through such hardship themselves. I say, let it rest and allow the individual to decide. Oh and btw..greatfully, ive never had to make this choice.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Moriarty

While we still have one element of free choice, then i feel we also have the right to decide about bringing a life into this world. How can we judge others decisions while not knowing their reasons behind such a choice? Who gives anyone the right to judge such an important thing as this?

There are always plenty of do-gooders in this world who are quick to judge others without ever having gone through such hardship themselves. I say, let it rest and allow the individual to decide. Oh and btw..greatfully, ive never had to make this choice.

I have, and it's definitely not something so easy that can be decided and not considered from all angles. People who think women who make these decisions are callous, and judge them, don't know what they are going through, and it's always easy to judge someone else from a position of self-righteous indignation and taking the moral high ground.

All that says to me is that those people have zero empathy for women in this position, but think they are being compassionate. Not to the women they aren't, but then I guess from their point of view, women don't deserve compassion since they are murdering potential life.

It's not that simple...and if they reeeeaaally thought about it, and opened their minds to consider the reality of the situation and how it would impact the child, depending on that woman's personal circumstances, they might not be so sure of themselves that the child would be in the best place to be born.

Most women in these situations have a very hard time going through with it. No one wants to have an abortion.

I personally would not want to be born into a family where the parents did not want me. That would be even worse than not being born, and that's a sad reality for many people in this world...all because the mother listened to her friends and influences around her at the time, like the church, instead of her own heart and knowing what was right for her.

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I have, and it's definitely not something so easy that can be decided and not considered from all angles. People who think women who make these decisions are callous, and judge them, don't know what they are going through, and it's always easy to judge someone else from a position of self-righteous indignation and taking the moral high ground.

All that says to me is that those people have zero empathy for women in this position, but think they are being compassionate. Not to the women they aren't, but then I guess from their point of view, women don't deserve compassion since they are murdering potential life.

It's not that simple...and if they reeeeaaally though about it, and opened their minds to consider the reality of the situation and how it would impact the child, depending on that woman's personal circumstances, they might not be so sure of themselves that the child would be in the best place to be born.

Most women in these situations have a very hard time going through with it. No one wants to have an abortion.

I personally would not want to be born into a family where the parents did not want me. That would be even worse than not being born, and that's a sad reality for many people in this world...all because the mother listened to her friends and influences around her at the time, instead of her own heart and knowing what was right for her.

....and if you were to back-step and look upon it from a greater stance, then spiritually, nothing is imperfect. All is how it should be. We tend to see things from the 'small' mind and not from the larger picture. If the energy (referred to as the soul) is aborted by choice, there's no big deal from that perspective...just energy doing its thing. There's always another chance...this chance was not meant to be for a number of reasons. Sorry, am I getting too deep?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Moriarty

....and if you were to back-step and look upon it from a greater stance, then spiritually, nothing is imperfect. All is how it should be. We tend to see things from the 'small' mind and not from the larger picture. If the energy (referred to as the soul) is aborted by choice, there's no big deal from that perspective...just energy doing its thing. There's always another chance...this chance was not meant to be for a number of reasons. Sorry, am I getting too deep?

Not at all.

Pro-lifers are free to their opinion, as we all are. The difference is, they tend to become very rigid in their views and cannot see past their own nose. Once you start to take on the position of over-zealous fanaticism, which demands that your belief is the only one that is 'right', that's when you start to lose the plot, and also infringe on the rest of the populations right to their own beliefs as well.

You can take a pro-life stance and that's fine, as long as it isn't hurting anyone. When pro-lifers start bombing the abortion doctors cars and killing them...all in the name of "Pro-Life", their whole cause becomes a joke, and they themselves become the very thing they are despising pro choice people for. Of course, they will twist it all to justify their actions to somehow be "god's work"...which is just hypocrisy, and blasphemy if you take it in the biblical sense. Thou shallt not kill, and all that.

I do find that many people who take on that belief tend to be very narrow and don't see the bigger picture...or won't, is probably more accurate.

They defend their views to the very end and in their righteousness they fail to take in all the factors involved, and only see it from one angle, which isn't well rounded.

I remember one guy I got along with really well from here, left the forum and I never heard from him again after our views clashed on this subject. People get so heated over this topic, probably more than any other I've seen here. I actually think it was this very thread where we clashed and he decided I was the enemy after that, and left. Not much you can do about it.

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Not at all.

Pro-lifers are free to their opinion, as we all are. The difference is, they tend to become very rigid in their views and cannot see past their own nose. Once you start to take on the position of over-zealous fanaticism, which demands that your belief is the only one that is 'right', that's when you start to lose the plot, and also infringe on the rest of the populations right to their own beliefs as well.

You can take a pro-life stance and that's fine, as long as it isn't hurting anyone. When pro-lifers start bombing the abortion doctors cars and killing them...all in the name of "Pro-Life", their whole cause becomes a joke, and they themselves become the very thing they are despising pro choice people for. Of course, they will twist it all to justify their actions to somehow be "god's work"...which is just hypocrisy, and blasphemy if you take it in the biblical sense. Thou shallt not kill, and all that.

I do find that many people who take on that belief tend to be very narrow and don't see the bigger picture...or won't, is probably more accurate.

They defend their views to the very end and in their righteousness they fail to take in all the factors involved, and only see it from one angle, which isn't well rounded.

I remember one guy I got along with really well from here, left the forum and I never heard from him again after our views clashed on this subject. People get so heated over this topic, probably more than any other I've seen here.

well..its like anything, isnt it? religion, politics, taking a daily bath.....

I mean, all is for a purpose and when we can sit back and stop judging the topic, then we become the tortoise and not the hare. If one needs a podium for their cause, I will be the first to help them place it, but don't expect me to agree with that cause. We each have some fire in our belly that stirs us to a passionate belief..does that make it right?...nope! but sometimes I like to stop to listen. Thanks for sharing your views

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Moriarty

well..its like anything, isnt it? religion, politics, taking a daily bath.....

I mean, all is for a purpose and when we can sit back and stop judging the topic, then we become the tortoise and not the hare. If one needs a podium for their cause, I will be the first to help them place it, but don't expect me to agree with that cause. We each have some fire in our belly that stirs us to a passionate belief..does that make it right?...nope! but sometimes I like to stop to listen. Thanks for sharing your views

And to you.

Yeah, I think that people can sometimes forget that in the heat of it all, they are still just opinions. Everyone is doing what they think is right, and everyone is right in their own mind.

When you start off wanting to save potential babies lives, and end up in jail for blowing up an abortion clinic, and killing ten people in the process, intentionally...you might want to re-examine your stand...and what better opportunity to have loads of time to rethink on your belief systems as the state penitentiary(;

[Curious cat]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Perhaps. I can understand this, especially if the pro-lifer in question was never exposed to critical feedback on the issue. But how can a potential baby that does not yet have a will of its own be 'helpless'? There is no being to help.

After you explained said this over and over again to a pro-lifer, what explains their continued belief that what they are doing is out of love or a desire to help? The only thing they are loving is their own ideology. There is no other will to be the recipient of their love.

I've been following this thread without wanting to participate further because hot topics like abortion tend to get people riled up and it just gets ugly without adding value. But a change seems to have shifted today and for the most part posters are surprisingly calm and respectful of one another, so i applaud you guys for not blowing your tops.

I participate in this thread again to offer a different perspective, my perspective. And yes, my points can be disproved, but i wanted to inject some compassion and empathy into this thread. What i say here won't change the world, but hopefully for someone who happens to come across this thread and is considering abortion, then i hope i can influence the outcome somehow.

As i've said earlier, before becoming a mother i was indifferent to abortion. But now i can't help but feel for the babies who are in this awful situation. Out of respect and compassion (and yes according to my own ideology), you will continue to see me refer to fetuses as babies. To me, if the unborn baby looks like a human and acts like one (sucking it's thumb in the womb like newborns do), i feel out of my own subjective beliefs that these persons need to be acknowledged as such. Whatever different terms other people want to use, i have no objection with.

I would like to clarify that while the position i take is pro-life, it does not mean i am anti-choice. As there are two competing rights here, if forced to choose, i choose to support mother's rights.

Zeph, it is true that i love my ideology, but i don't see how i couldn't. Kindness and compassion are just too good to not love. But i think a large part of humanity encompasses this. In my case, it extends to fellow humans, including unborn ones. I have read and considered arguments against the technicalities of what constitutes a human being. And i can see they are valid for legal purposes, but as a human being i cannot help but still acknowledge that there is still a real loss of a life in the case of abortion.

Many posters assert that fetuses have no will. Now, being a stay at home mother to my son, i can say that newborns are no different in this regard than an unborn baby. In fact, as strange as this may sound, for the first few months of their lives, babies aren't aware that they are separate to their mother and believe that we are one entity. It is only after they realise that this is not true that they develop separation anxiety. And this is what you get when you cuddle someone's baby and they are crying bloody murder.

A few things i would like to say about unborn babies not recognised as human beings because they lack attributes such as self awareness and sentience.

Firstly i think self awareness (on an emotional/intellectual level i assume?) requires years for a child to develop, so not too different to unborn babies there. My son is 15 months right now and lets just say, self awareness is not his strongest quality. It is usually after the age of one that tantrums occur, and i believe it is around this time that toddlers start developing a sense of self and possession. Of course this is my observation .

Secondly, on sentience, there may be something there, but i think we can't say for sure either way as science has a long way to go. On tht note i would encourage everyone who hasn't seen this video to view it. Apologies if it has already been mentioned already, but combing through all 10+ pages is rather daunting. The movie is called The Silent Scream. It shows a 12 week old baby girl being torn apart inside the womb during an abortion. She was sucking her thumb and seen purposefully dodging the abortion instrument as her heart rate raced and her mouth was gaping open just before her death, suggesting there is sentience, being fear and pain.

ABORTION - THE SILENT SCREAM #3 / Part 3 / 03 Pro-Life Anti-Abortion Video - YouTube

[elucidate]

I agree that when you can see the baby sucking it's own formed thumb, then by that stage it is a baby. However, at 7 weeks, which is the recommended time for termination, there are no fingers to suck!

The foetus resembles a tiny fish, as I said earlier a few pages back. This is why the latest legal age for the foetus to be aborted (in Australia anyway) is about 3 and a half months. I'd have to find a pic to show what stage the foetus is at then, but most women do not have an abortion at this stage anyway...they will have it as soon as it is discovered they are pregnant.

Just thought I'd mention it.

[Lost in love]

My position on it is that if you are in a loving relationship and finically stable, there is absolutely no resin or excuse to have an abortion...even if you aren't ready for a child, there are many many people out there that want a baby but can not conceive for one reason or another.

I DO feel there are circumstances where, as much as it may sound bad, it maybe the best option. I only say that because 8 years ago my brother and his then very irresponsible girlfriend, did have an abortion. They were both over 18, and had been together for 3 years, but it was an abusive and very intoxicated relationship. I really do not feel she would have stayed sober for 9 months to even give a child a chance at adoption! In situations like that, I believe it was the best option, although some may say other wise.

I guess it goes back to the post where someone said "it's a necessary evil in this world.."

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by elucidate

And to you.

Yeah, I think that people can sometimes forget that in the heat of it all, they are still just opinions. Everyone is doing what they think is right, and everyone is right in their own mind.

When you start off wanting to save potential babies lives, and end up in jail for blowing up an abortion clinic, and killing ten people in the process, intentionally...you might want to re-examine your stand...and what better opportunity to have loads of time to rethink on your belief systems as the state penitentiary(;

Obviously, this happened. sad...very sad! Hey, their choice to do what they have done...now their path leads them to solitude and confinement to face their own demons. As for those who have suffered by this? ....no answer needed.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I agree that when you can see the baby sucking it's own formed thumb, then by that stage it is a baby. However, at 7 weeks, which is the recommended time for termination, there are no fingers to suck!

The foetus resembles a tiny fish, as I said earlier a few pages back. This is why the latest legal age for the foetus to be aborted (in Australia anyway) is about 3 and a half months. I'd have to find a pic to show what stage the foetus is at then, but most women do not have an abortion at this stage anyway...they will have it as soon as it is discovered they are pregnant.

Just thought I'd mention it.

I've always liked this comparison.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I've always liked this comparison.

It's crazy how we look so similar to all these other creatures.

It's interesting too how we resemble tiny fish, when we originally did come from the ocean, before we crawled onto land and stood upright. Actually, I've always thought we look like aliens.

In the womb it's like humans are back at the beginning of it all...which is literally true for a developing baby. In the dark and surrounded by water.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It's crazy how we look so similar to all these other creatures.

It's interesting too how we resemble tiny fish, when we originally did come from the ocean, before we crawled onto land and stood upright. Actually, I've always thought we look like aliens.

In the womb it's like humans are back at the beginning of it all...which is literally true for a developing baby. In the dark and surrounded by water.

Hahahaha. One thing I remember very clearly from biology class: ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. Unfortunately, Wikipedia tells me that this has been disproven.


Anyway, y'all, the personhood amendment in Mississippi failed, thank deity. Now can we all go back to our lives?

[ZephyrusX]

... Do they really look like that?

Oh never mind. I didn't see the subheadings and I was thinking the fish was suppose to be human and so on and felt profoundly confused...

If I ever have a child, I should probably outsource the task of teaching human biology to someone else.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I've always liked this comparison.

[ZephyrusX]

A pro-life group in Edmonton went around plastering 3 month year old fetus images (sucking its thumb) around the city awhile back. I still see them once in awhile. Is there something special about the 3 month stage besides the fact that they suck thumbs? Can they feel pain or are we just interpreting it as such? Are the majority of abortions done before this time or are they legally required to do so?

I'm probably better off doing my own research, I suppose.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with your child as it relates to self-awareness. It was interesting to consider.

Originally Posted by Curious cat

Secondly, on sentience, there may be something there, but i think we can't say for sure either way as science has a long way to go. On tht note i would encourage everyone who hasn't seen this video to view it. Apologies if it has already been mentioned already, but combing through all 10+ pages is rather daunting. The movie is called The Silent Scream. It shows a 12 week old baby girl being torn apart inside the womb during an abortion. She was sucking her thumb and seen purposefully dodging the abortion instrument as her heart rate raced and her mouth was gaping open just before her death, suggesting there is sentience, being fear and pain.

ABORTION - THE SILENT SCREAM #3 / Part 3 / 03 Pro-Life Anti-Abortion Video - YouTube

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

A pro-life group in Edmonton went around plastering 3 month year old fetus images (sucking its thumb) around the city awhile back. I still see them once in awhile. Is there something special about the 3 month stage besides the fact that they suck thumbs? Can they feel pain or are we just interpreting it as such? Are the majority of abortions done before this time or are they legally required to do so?

I'm probably better off doing my own research, I suppose.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with your child as it relates to self-awareness. It was interesting to consider.

Zephy, this is what most abortions done in the US look like. I don't know about Canada but suspect it's much the same. What does an early abortion look like? There are also good links at the bottom of that page.

The dismembered bloody baby part propaganda photos that all of us have seen are generally from very very late-term abortions which are already illegal in most states (except when the mother's life is in danger, -I think-, but don't quote me on that).

[Fred Tracy]

I haven't read the thread, but I'm fine with it.

Although I can't technically see the difference between killing a baby that's still growing, versus killing it once it's out of the womb. So that could mean that it's murder. Or maybe it's okay to kill babies… That definitely seems wrong. Then why my okay with people killing unborn babies on occasion?

I suppose I just don't care enough to actually form a real opinion. :P

[ZephyrusX]

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Zephy, this is what most abortions done in the US look like. I don't know about Canada but suspect it's much the same. What does an early abortion look like? There are also good links at the bottom of that page.

The dismembered bloody baby part propaganda photos that all of us have seen are generally from very very late-term abortions which are already illegal in most states (except when the mother's life is in danger, -I think-, but don't quote me on that).

[ssandra]

Quoted because everybody should visit this link.

Everybody has a right to think what they want to think, and to have a moral opinion on whatever they want to have a moral opinion about.

However, be truthful at least. It is ok to be against abortion, but don't go telling lies to convince people of your opinion!!

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Zephy, this is what most abortions done in the US look like. I don't know about Canada but suspect it's much the same. What does an early abortion look like? There are also good links at the bottom of that page.

The dismembered bloody baby part propaganda photos that all of us have seen are generally from very very late-term abortions which are already illegal in most states (except when the mother's life is in danger, -I think-, but don't quote me on that).

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Quoted because everybody should visit this link.

Everybody has a right to think what they want to think, and to have a moral opinion on whatever they want to have a moral opinion about.

However, be truthful at least. It is ok to be against abortion, but don't go telling lies to convince people of your opinion!!

I'll go even further, and post up the picture of what a 6 week old fetus looks like after an abortion.

[Curious cat]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Is there something special about the 3 month stage besides the fact that they suck thumbs?

Speaking for myself, I can identify better with the unborn baby the further the pregnancy as they appear more human and there is more purposeful movement. This is not proven scientific fact, but some parents say that their child has interacted with them while in the womb. The parents would be poking the mother's belly and the baby would sometimes poke back in the same spot. This happens over different areas of the belly and on numerous occasions.

Can they feel pain or are we just interpreting it as such? Are the majority of abortions done before this time or are they legally required to do so?

I couldn't tell you for sure, and of course no-one here will just take my word for it, so research is probably best. However, after watching that video, my own interpretation is there is at least some level of distress.

I've had a quick look at Guttmacher Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States and according to their statistics, most abortions performed in USA take place between before 9 weeks. Though there are a number that happen late in pregnancy, after the first trimester.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Curious cat

Speaking for myself, I can identify better with the unborn baby the further the pregnancy as they appear more human and there is more purposeful movement. This is not proven scientific fact, but some parents say that their child has interacted with them while in the womb. The parents would be poking the mother's belly and the baby would sometimes poke back in the same spot. This happens over different areas of the belly and on numerous occasions.



I couldn't tell you for sure, and of course no-one here will just take my word for it, so research is probably best. However, after watching that video, my own interpretation is there is at least some level of distress.

I've had a quick look at Guttmacher Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States and according to their statistics, most abortions performed in USA take place between before 9 weeks. Though there are a number that happen late in pregnancy, after the first trimester.

Distress, doesn't equal pain tho. And even then, pain is only a signal to the body that something is happening. Plants can feel distress too, and invertebrates show distress, even tho they don't feel pain.

[Curious cat]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Zephy, this is what most abortions done in the US look like. I don't know about Canada but suspect it's much the same. What does an early abortion look like? There are also good links at the bottom of that page.

The dismembered bloody baby part propaganda photos that all of us have seen are generally from very very late-term abortions which are already illegal in most states (except when the mother's life is in danger, -I think-, but don't quote me on that).

I've taken a look at the link and I don't doubt the integrity of it. However I do believe that the pictures do not entirely represent abortion in it's full gory. Admittedly I am a slasher movie fan, but this is not why I am suggesting we need to see abortion as a bloody aftermath. This is important because people need to see with their own eyes, so they can fully appreciate the extent of harm through assault to the senses. I think this is much like war. It's hard to picture the damage of war in your mind until you see the raw, honest and confronting images of war victims.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Curious cat

I've taken a look at the link and I don't doubt the integrity of it. However I do believe that the pictures do not entirely represent abortion in it's full gory. Admittedly I am a slasher movie fan, but this is not why I am suggesting we need to see abortion as a bloody aftermath. This is important because people need to see with their own eyes, so they can fully appreciate the extent of harm through assault to the senses. I think this is much like war. It's hard to picture the damage of war in your mind until you see the raw, honest and confronting images of war victims.

Periods have a bloody aftermath too.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Curious cat

I've taken a look at the link and I don't doubt the integrity of it. However I do believe that the pictures do not entirely represent abortion in it's full gory. Admittedly I am a slasher movie fan, but this is not why I am suggesting we need to see abortion as a bloody aftermath. This is important because people need to see with their own eyes, so they can fully appreciate the extent of harm through assault to the senses. I think this is much like war. It's hard to picture the damage of war in your mind until you see the raw, honest and confronting images of war victims.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I'll go even further, and post up the picture of what a 6 week old fetus looks like after an abortion.

Here you are. The "bloody aftermath" of a 6 week abortion.

And I think you're comment in bold might be a typo?
Because do you feel we really need to see an abortion as "a bloody aftermath" or do we need to see it what it really is?

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Periods have a bloody aftermath too.

LOL!

(wanted to rep you, but couldn't. Need to spread it around first and I don't feel that slutty today!)