What's your position on abortion? And why?

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

And it's called "pro-life", because it's easier to market, then "anti choice". That doesn't change what it is, it only makes it more palatable for those who would rather not think about the underlying issue.

Americans also believe eugenics is wrong, yet you want to kill anyone who will be born into a body that YOU feel, isn't worth being born.

How many more times are you going to write incorrect and illogical things before you just stop?

1) I'll take "anti-choice" over "pro-murder" any day. So would any sane human being.
2) Again, I've stated several times that unless you explicitly KNOW that the child will be unhappy in life (as in advanced neuroscience), it cannot be aborted. So no, how I feel about the child's worth is completely and totally irrelevant. As are most of the points you've attempted to make recently. Stop attacking me, think it over, and make a coherent argument. I've seen you do it, you're just off your game right now.

[Agota]

I'm just curious.

Let's imagine that you're in the situation when your girlfriend got pregnant and wants to get an abortion (I assume you'd discuss this beforehand and therefore wouldn't get into a situation like that, but let's use our imagination for a moment). You tried your best to explain that it's murder and that it's her responsibility to give birth to that baby, she doesn't care.That's it, she made up her mind: she will go get an abortion. What do you do?

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by aelle

About men having an equal say in the matter: we can discuss what would be fair in a utopia, but in the real world, marital rape and forcible impregnation (fiddling with BC...) are frequent tools of abuse and control of men on women. Removing women's only option to walk out of it at this point is giving them the shorter end of the stick.
(If a woman gets pregnant when her partner doesn't want to, he is free to walk out. )



Hear hear.
I completely disagree with the notion that everyone who engages in sex absolutely and without conditions accepts the risk of pregnancy. It is completely disconnected from reality.

Just because people behave like idiots doesn't excuse it. If a particularly dull bulb signs up for the Army's infantry, but didn't understand that he might be in some degree of danger, he can't just say "woops, never mind ship me back to LA please."

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by Agota

I'm just curious.

Let's imagine that you're in the situation when your girlfriend got pregnant and wants to get an abortion (I assume you'd discuss this beforehand and therefore wouldn't get into a situation like that, but let's use our imagination for a moment). You tried your best to explain that it's murder and that it's her responsibility to give birth to that baby, she doesn't care.That's it, she made up her mind: she will go get an abortion. What do you do?

I would pay her any amount of money to get her to stop, or pursue whatever legal avenues I can to prevent it from being done.

[Agota]

Legal action probably would help in countries where abortion is illegal, but as it was already mentioned, women have their ways to terminate an unwanted pregnancy without doing the actual abortion.

Money would probably work, though..

[DerekB]

There are a lot of positives and negatives to being a woman or being a man. People keep insinuating here that women get the shaft in life (yes that's a joke, please excuse the bad pun ). They don't mention things like the fact that women have many advantages over men in certain things,

[DerekB]

Also, I truly do apologize if my views are offensive to anybody. Please know I'm not arguing about women's rights over their body, or men's obvious lack of the right to control women, but rather a child's right to live. And I do, absolutely, consider a fetus a child, because I'd rather err on the side of caution than commit what I consider murder.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by DerekB

I would pay her any amount of money to get her to stop, or pursue whatever legal avenues I can to prevent it from being done.

Assuming abortion were illegal, what kind of legal avenues could prevent women to end a pregnancy they don't want? Are you arguing for preventive incarceration??

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by aelle

I love when noobs dig up a year-old, 17-page-long thread without reading it and with nothing new to add to the discussion

See that post? It has NOTHING to do with you. The person before you dug up the thread, not YOU. She was in NO WAY AT ALL, zip zero zilch, nada, talking about YOU. She didn't mistakly think YOU revived the thread, from what she wrote. If she did, then that's only for her to tell us, because NOTHING that she wrote, would lead anyone to believe that it was you. She never once mentioned you, or anything you wrote in your post, and she did not quote your post. It is your perception of everything being about you, that led you to think this. I don't see where you feel it was directed at you, when, YOU weren't the one who dug it up. Do you really feel you are that important, that even things that have nothing to do with you, are about you? Yes, the person mentioned 7 billion, and that is new. But, that number doesn't change anything, because we all know that there are, and will be a lot of people, and they added NOTHING else but that, while you added something new to the discussion. The fact that I even have to explain this to you, makes me want to scratch out my brain.

Originally Posted by DerekB

Wrong, the difference between you and I is that I don't call people trolls just because they disagree with me and have an uncanny ability to make my own arguments go against me. I stated, already, that unless you can know for a certainty that they will be unhappy, you cannot abort them. So that undoes your first point.

With regards to your second point:
"You aren't the one to decide who should or shouldn't be born" - Thanks for agreeing with me yet again! Nobody has the right to decide who should or shouldn't be born, regardless of their genitalia.

And I was never mistaken. You and the mod both still seem to be, however, so I will explain. Aelle mistakenly thought that I revived the thread, when it was not me. However, the "noob" comment was directed at my comment, not the actual thread reviver. Perhaps in the future you will be able to make your own deductions, rather than just assuming that the mod is correct (they aren't omniscient). So yet again, you sir, are the noob.

P.S. I'm not trying to make you look like an idiot, it just seems to be happening on its own.

As mentioned already, you take things WAY to personally. You don't comprehend the use of forum terms to refer to people, and take things as an insult, when they aren't. At least, this time, you are right, that I'M actually talking about YOU. So, at least you got it right this time.

Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You, post inflammatory comments. You have been warned by a mod, because of your inflammatory comments. You are the definition of a troll. I'm not calling you names, and I'm not saying a derogatory term. I personally believe, that you are doing it just to provoke emotional responses from people.

So, while YOU want to kill handicap people, because you feel they are unhappy, it in no way compares to ME calling YOU a troll. You're right, I do have a great ability of making your own arguments go against you. But, you do that yourself just fine too. Which further perpetuates my idea that you are probably a troll.

You are stating for certainty, that a severely handicap person, will be unhappy, and should be aborted. Or, that you can judge what a child will turn out like, and can decide that they should be aborted, because they'll be a transsexual hermaphrodite hemophiliac. It's like you completely forgot, that YOU are the one who said that.

And in case you missed it even more, this whole time I've been arguing AGAINST abortion, and I've been doing a much better job at it then you. My posts, have gone even further then yours. So, while you sit here and call me an idiot, I'll be the bigger man here, and refrain from calling you anything that you might be.

[Agota]

We are simply discussing an issue where you can't deny that men and women are in completely different situations and women have much more to go through in terms of giving birth to a child.

I didn't get an impression that anyone here was discussing which gender generally has it easier in life, which you seem to be implying.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DerekB

Also, I truly do apologize if my views are offensive to anybody. Please know I'm not arguing about women's rights over their body, or men's obvious lack of the right to control women, but rather a child's right to live. And I do, absolutely, consider a fetus a child, because I'd rather err on the side of caution than commit what I consider murder.

Do you also avoid at all costs stepping on ants, not swatting mosquitos and never eating meat...because that is also murdering something elses child. You must also never masturbate, since that would be killing sperm, which is potential life as a tadpole.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by DerekB

Also, I truly do apologize if my views are offensive to anybody. Please know I'm not arguing about women's rights over their body, or men's obvious lack of the right to control women, but rather a child's right to live. And I do, absolutely, consider a fetus a child, because I'd rather err on the side of caution than commit what I consider murder.

Which is an issue you still haven't addressed and aren't willing to consider. You've simply decided that a fetus is a person, given no rational reason, and as a result of that you are arguing against the rights of women over their bodies, whether that is the foremost issue in your mind or not.

[ZephyrusX]

Yes, people can try to impose standards onto others. I do it quite the bit. In WW2 though, we used force to impose those standards. In countries that legalize abortion, you cannot use the force of the State to force the woman to follow your line of morality. Hence the reason you are better off speaking to your sexual partners about this issue if you really believe that it is murder.

I think I get your point though. If a fetus is truly alive, shouldn't we have the moral responsibility to impose our higher standards of morality onto others? If you honestly believe that, yes, I suppose. Hence the rather brutal tactics used by the Pro-Life group at times.

Hence the discussion on what constitutes life, I suppose.

Originally Posted by DerekB

People have the right to impose their standards on others in some contexts. We (americans) believe that genocide is wrong. Therefore, we joined WWII and defeated the germans, ending the holocaust. By extending your logic, you're implying that we had no business ending the holocaust and we should've let it continue.

Its called pro-choice because its easier to market than "pro-murder". That doesn't change what it is, it only makes it more palatable for those who would rather not think about the underlying issue.

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

See that post? It has NOTHING to do with you. The person before you dug up the thread, not YOU. She was in NO WAY AT ALL, zip zero zilch, nada, talking about YOU. She didn't mistakly think YOU revived the thread, from what she wrote. If she did, then that's only for her to tell us, because NOTHING that she wrote, would lead anyone to believe that it was you. She never once mentioned you, or anything you wrote in your post, and she did not quote your post. It is your perception of everything being about you, that led you to think this. I don't see where you feel it was directed at you, when, YOU weren't the one who dug it up. Do you really feel you are that important, that even things that have nothing to do with you, are about you? Yes, the person mentioned 7 billion, and that is new. But, that number doesn't change anything, because we all know that there are, and will be a lot of people, and they added NOTHING else but that, while you added something new to the discussion. The fact that I even have to explain this to you, makes me want to scratch out my brain.

As mentioned already, you take things WAY to personally. You don't comprehend the use of forum terms to refer to people, and take things as an insult, when they aren't. At least, this time, you are right, that I'M actually talking about YOU. So, at least you got it right this time.

Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You, post inflammatory comments. You have been warned by a mod, because of your inflammatory comments. You are the definition of a troll. I'm not calling you names, and I'm not saying a derogatory term. I personally believe, that you are doing it just to provoke emotional responses from people.

So, while YOU want to kill handicap people, because you feel they are unhappy, it in no way compares to ME calling YOU a troll. You're right, I do have a great ability of making your own arguments go against you. But, you do that yourself just fine too. Which further perpetuates my idea that you are probably a troll.

You are stating for certainty, that a severely handicap person, will be unhappy, and should be aborted. Or, that you can judge what a child will turn out like, and can decide that they should be aborted, because they'll be a transsexual hermaphrodite hemophiliac. It's like you completely forgot, that YOU are the one who said that.

And in case you missed it even more, this whole time I've been arguing AGAINST abortion, and I've been doing a much better job at it then you. My posts, have gone even further then yours. So, while you sit here and call me an idiot, I'll be the bigger man here, and refrain from calling you anything that you might be.

Clearly you didn't heed my advice about collecting your thoughts and forming a coherent argument. So here we go again. Reasons why everything you've said is wrong:

1) She was referring to me, she didn't notice that I was not the person who revived the thread, she mistakenly believed I did. That is evidenced when you examine her statement that the "noob" had nothing new to add. The person who posted before me (the true thread reviver) spoke about the population reaching seven billion people. This is something that was new to the thread, since the population reached seven billion a week ago, the last post before that was in January, when NOBODY was talking about the population. Whats strange is I already posted this and explained it explicitly to you, yet you still cannot seem to grasp it.

2) I have stated many, many times that they have to --->*KNOW*<--- (this is extremely important, so I'm pointing to it with arrows to ensure you don't miss it again) that they will be unhappy. This involves advanced neuroscience combined with knowledge of the family's circumstances and options gleaned from the parents.

3) I'm not a troll, because the purpose of my comments is not to anger people or inflame emotions. It is, rather, to express my beliefs, which in case you didn't notice, at least one person has expressed total agreement with since my initial post.

4) I have yet to call you an idiot. I merely agreed with you about it.

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Do you also avoid at all costs stepping on ants, not swatting mosquitos and never eating meat...because that is also murdering something elses child. You must also never masturbate, since that would be killing sperm, which is potential life as a tadpole.

Irrelevant and ridiculous. Ants and mosquitoes are not people, which as I've said fetuses are. Sperm will not ever become a fetus, they will stay sperm forever unless they fertilize an egg, and if they aren't...ahem...gotten rid of, they will be replaced and replenished naturally by my body.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Which is an issue you still haven't addressed and aren't willing to consider. You've simply decided that a fetus is a person, given no rational reason, and as a result of that you are arguing against the rights of women over their bodies, whether that is the foremost issue in your mind or not.

In my case, the reason why I'd consider fetus as a person of some form is it's potential to become a human being. I couldn't have an abortion, because I'd imagine the time when that fetus would actually become a child, a teenager, an adult and therefore I'd feel like I'm giving up on that, not on couple of cells combined together. Again, this is a personal opinion and it's wrong to try to force it on others, especially ones who might be in less favorable circumstances than you are. The fact that fetus has a potential to become a human being doesn't mean that anyone has a right to explain someone what they should or shouldn't do with their bodies.

[russianrocket]

I'm sorry, but you are a completely insufferable individual, and I have no idea why people are continuing to argue with you. You go ahead and continue thinking everything is about you. I'm out of this thread. If anyone else really wants to continue it, then more power to you, but I suspect he will say something soon, that will quickly get him banned. If anything, for at least wasting all of our time.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DerekB

Irrelevant and ridiculous. Ants and mosquitoes are not people, which as I've said fetuses are. Sperm will not ever become a fetus, they will stay sperm forever unless they fertilize an egg, and if they aren't...ahem...gotten rid of, they will be replaced and replenished naturally by my body.

It is relevant. If you are talking about being pro-life, then that counts for ALL life, not just babies. Do you know how tiny a foetus is? It's about the size of a very small fish when it's at seven weeks, which is when it is recommended for abortion.

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Which is an issue you still haven't addressed and aren't willing to consider. You've simply decided that a fetus is a person, given no rational reason, and as a result of that you are arguing against the rights of women over their bodies, whether that is the foremost issue in your mind or not.

I did give a rational reason, you just chose to overlook it because you don't like the idea that having an abortion is wrong. A fetus, barring external interference, will undergo a full human life cycle, it will become a baby, an adolescent, an adult, grow old, and die. Nobody has proved that humanity starts at baby in the cycle. Why wouldn't is start earlier in the flow chart of human existence, at fetus. Just because it pops out from in between a woman's legs it counts as a person? What about five minutes earlier? Ten? A day? A week? A month? Two? Nine?

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I'm sorry, but you are a completely insufferable individual, and I have no idea why people are continuing to argue with you. You go ahead and continue thinking everything is about you. I'm out of this thread. If anyone else really wants to continue it, then more power to you, but I suspect he will say something soon, that will quickly get him banned. If anything, for at least wasting all of our time.

So now that I've pointed out that you were wrong you're just back to attacking my character again? Fine. I've done absolutely nothing to merit getting banned. I've expressed my opinions and defended them from those who disagreed, nothing more.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by DerekB

So now that I've pointed out that you were wrong you're just back to attacking my character again? Fine. I've done absolutely nothing to merit getting banned. I've expressed my opinions and defended them from those who disagreed, nothing more.

No, you've pointed out that you have no understanding of reality. Me, trying to disprove you, is getting old, and it's why I'm backing out. Nothing you've said thus far, has proven I'm wrong, aside from you pointing things out, that have no actual basis in fact. And, as I said, you WILL do something that will get you banned.

PS. There is a reason, why only one person has actually agreed with you thus far. Not because you are great at pointing out people are wrong. That person, had nothing more to even contribute to this thread, while many intelligent people, have time and time again, told YOU that YOU are wrong. Get that through your head, or to quote you, " get over yourself".

Enjoy life.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DerekB

So now that I've pointed out that you were wrong you're just back to attacking my character again? Fine. I've done absolutely nothing to merit getting banned. I've expressed my opinions and defended them from those who disagreed, nothing more.

Why is it that when someone else expresses an opinion you call it an attack, but when you express an opinion, that's all it is?

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It is relevant. If you are talking about being pro-life, then that counts for ALL life, not just babies. Do you know how tiny a foetus is? It's about the size of a very small fish when it's at seven weeks, which is when it is recommended for abortion.

You're definition of pro-life cannot possibly be right. Think about it, if it counted for ALL LIFE, that would extend not only to animals but to plants as well. As a result, human beings wouldn't be allowed to eat anything, and humanity would die off in weeks. Pro life refers to human beings, who are unique and special among the creatures of earth due to our intelligence and awareness.

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Why is it that when someone else expresses an opinion you call it an attack, but when you express an opinion, that's all it is?

Because, elucidate, he said this: "you are a completely insufferable individual".

That is whats known as an attack. He isn't talking about my arguments, he is talking about me. I'm not here calling anybody insufferable or insulting them. I am taking their arguments and attempting as best I can to prove or disprove them.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by DerekB

Because, elucidate, he said this: "you are a completely insufferable individual".

That is whats known as an attack. He isn't talking about my arguments, he is talking about me. I'm not here calling anybody insufferable or insulting them. I am taking their arguments and attempting as best I can to prove or disprove them.

Yeah, you're right, you only call people self important fools ( you made the first attack in this thread), and insinuating that they are idiots. I forgot.

You, are too extreme for me to bear, and I'm having trouble tolerating you. There for, to ME, you are insufferable. It's not a bad word. It's not an insult. It's not a curse words. It's not an attack. It's an opinion, which you seem to be fully in your rights to express, but don't allow anyone else to do so, without labeling it as an attack.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DerekB

You're definition of pro-life cannot possibly be right. Think about it, if it counted for ALL LIFE, that would extend not only to animals but to plants as well. As a result, human beings wouldn't be allowed to eat anything, and humanity would die off in weeks. Pro life refers to human beings, who are unique and special among the creatures of earth due to our intelligence and awareness.

Well, that's convenient isn't it...that people with your opinion only restrict the meaning of PRO-LIFE, which means "For Life" to be only about humans. If they did extend it to all life, it would be as you say, which would be impossible.

I think other creatures of the earth are imbued with their own intelligence as well, and are clearly unique in their form, as we are. They may not have the same kind of awareness that we have, but they are at least in touch with their instincts and connected to the earth, which I can't say the same for most of us.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by DerekB

Because, elucidate, he said this: "you are a completely insufferable individual".

That is whats known as an attack. He isn't talking about my arguments, he is talking about me. I'm not here calling anybody insufferable or insulting them. I am taking their arguments and attempting as best I can to prove or disprove them.

Calling you insufferable is expressing how he experiences you. If you choose to take that as an attack, then that's you're right.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by DerekB

I did give a rational reason, you just chose to overlook it because you don't like the idea that having an abortion is wrong. A fetus, barring external interference, will undergo a full human life cycle, it will become a baby, an adolescent, an adult, grow old, and die.

Wrong. It needs the external intervention of a woman's body(which is, often, terminated without intervention, as well). And then it needs the external intervention of intensive care.

You did not present this argument in your other posts addressed at me. You simply said "err on the safe side".

Nobody has proved that humanity starts at baby in the cycle. Why wouldn't is start earlier in the flow chart of human existence, at fetus. Just because it pops out from in between a woman's legs it counts as a person? What about five minutes earlier? Ten? A day? A week? A month? Two? Nine?

I gave you a reason that a fetus is not automatically a person. You haven't addressed it.

No one needs to prove personhood starts at "baby" to prove abortion is not immoral. They need to prove a fetus is not by definition a person. (Or even, that in this case, killing a person is not immoral. Society does that all the time in wars and the death penalty, but those are not generally things I support, so I'm not going that route.)

[DerekB]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Yeah, you're right, you only call people self important fools, and insinuating that they are idiots. I forgot.

You, are too extreme for me to bear, and I'm having trouble tolerating you. There for, to ME, you are insufferable. It's not a bad word. It's not an insult. It's not a curse words. It's an opinion, which you seem to be fully in your rights to express, but don't allow anyone else to do so, without labeling it as an attack.

"otherwise you only look like a self-important fool." - I stated that the way you went about presenting yourself and your argument made you LOOK like one. I did not say you were one. And I told a person to get over themselves when they condescendingly called me a noob.

[ZephyrusX]

Derek

Concerning personhood, aelle asked a very interesting question earlier. I would like to hear your opinion on it.

Originally Posted by aelle

Zygote personhood:
- An embryo can split and result into monozygitic twins. If an embryo can result in two separate people, how can it be a person?