What's your position on abortion? And why?

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by James81

The last person who suggested such an idea, btw, got crucified.

I hardly think he was the last!

[inri]

Originally Posted by sorter

I don't see how t4488's hypothetical doesn't work.
Why does inside or outside make a difference?

Inside means it is completely dependent upon my life, body and very person-hood...it means that it is growing in and off of my body, my blood, my nourishment, my being. A fetus is 'attached' to the woman's body in such a way that you could say it is a 'part' of her body...as without the woman's body, there is no life, period.

And...here's the two biggies...1. most will agree that as fully developed humans, we have autonomy over our own body...AND 2. a fetus is NOT a fully developed human (particularly at the stage that most abortions are performed) capable of feeling or perceiving anything, (according to what science currently presents regarding brain/nervous system development).

[James81]

Originally Posted by inri

A fetus does not, CANNOT have an opinion.

I think a fetus might disagree with you there.

Seriously, we like to pretend we know all about fetuses, don't we? It's been approximately 30 years now since I was a fetus. I don't remember what it was like to be a fetus, do you?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

I hardly think he was the last!

True. As of the time at that post, I was the last person who suggested such a thing.

I wonder if somewhere else in the world, somebody else has suggested such a thing since I made that post? Probably, although I could never know that.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by inri

(It's actually believed that up to 1/3 of pregnancies end in miscarriage during the first trimester)

It's actually much higher than that: Over 50% (I've read as high as 75%) of pregnancies result in spontaneous miscarriage before the pregnancy is detectable -- a woman may notice a heavier than normal period.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Angela

It's actually much higher than that: Over 50% (I've read as high as 75%) of pregnancies result in spontaneous miscarriage before the pregnancy is detectable -- a woman may notice a heavier than normal period.

yes 50-75% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage is the ratio. I've had three miscarriages and one full term life birth, so I've been counseled on this extensively by OBGYNs.

In some areas of the world the miscarriage and birth defect rate is MUCH higher, due to the concentration of environmental pollutants. In some parts of the US the miscarriage/spontaneous biological abortion rate is closer to 90%! scary.

[inri]

Originally Posted by James81

Of course. And trust me, if someone came alone and injected it into your uterus with a turkey baster, I could see your point.

So, if I willingly (and perhaps you'd even say, 'stupidly') entered into a sexual union and unwittingly became pregnant, the fetus would have more rights and I would have less than if I became pregnant through no action of my own?

I just don't get this kind of logic other than to say; "You should know better than to have sex...therefore, take the consequences that your reckless behavior serves up."

This does amount to women being punished for choosing to have sex in my books.

AS I said in an earlier post, as humans, our sexual urges are such that we're likely never going to achieve perfect control over our reproduction.....evidence of abortion can be seen in the earliest records of human existence...in fact it is only modern humans who has 'demonized' women for attempting to take control of their reproductive systems.

What I think is awesome is the number of websites cropping up that educate women as to such things as natural birth control and natural early abortion. These are methods that have been kept relatively secret throughout the ages and are now becoming more mainstream due to the incredible ability of the internet to share information. Apparently Herbal concoctions and other natural remedies to induce miscarriage have a success rate as high as 40%.

I suspect we'll see more of a grassroots movement worldwide in the next several years to empower women to take more personal and natural control of their bodies.

After all, it would be pretty hard to legislate against a woman taking high doses of ascorbic acid or massaging her own uterus to 'bring on a late period' while she lays in the privacy of her her own bedroom, wouldn't it?

[James81]

Out of curiosity, what does the idea of miscarriages have to do with abortion?

Are you all saying that because causes beyond our control cause more pre-natal humans to die that that means it's ok for us to go ahead and throw in and be a cause for that to happen as well? Like, welp, so many babies are already dying before they are born, we minus whale just go ahead and start killin' 'em as well?

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by aelle

Wasn't there a case in the US where a pregnant woman got jailed for falling down some stairs? I can only see the definition of the rights and freedom of a person primarily through her value as a baby incubator as a very dangerous slippery slope.

I already see a trend in this direction - not legally, but societal - and I find it problematic. It's not uncommon to be refused medical treatment (vaccination, chemo, roaccutane...) if your bc is deemed inadequate, because although the treatment would be beneficial to the (existing!) woman, it *could* be detrimental to a *potential* fetus, should she accidentally get pregant and should she choose to keep it. WTF?

In my mother's country women are valued only as vessels through which more men can be born. What a wonderful world.

[James81]

Originally Posted by inri

(and perhaps you'd even say, 'stupidly')

I gotta be honest with you, I stopped reading right there.

You're not talking to me specifically here. You're talking to the image you have of a typical pro-lifer.

Not really my cup of tea.

[inri]

Originally Posted by James81

I think a fetus might disagree with you there.

Seriously, we like to pretend we know all about fetuses, don't we? It's been approximately 30 years now since I was a fetus. I don't remember what it was like to be a fetus, do you?

There's a whole field of science that has studied the development of the human fetus. IN terms of brain and nervous system dvelopment, thought processes and/or pain are impossible at the stage where most abortions occur.

Indeed, in term of spirit or consciousness itself, we could debate the hell of the whole issue, but when it comes right down to it there'd be no factual, scientific evidence to support the idea that an embryo or fetus could have an opinion.

If we are starting with the premise that a woman has a complete and total right to manage her own body as she sees fit, then really....none of this stuff should actually even come into play.

My body...my choice....enough said.

[James81]

Originally Posted by inri

My body...my choice....enough said.

Good for you.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by inri

I suspect we'll see more of a grassroots movement worldwide in the next several years to empower women to take more personal and natural control of their bodies.

After all, it would be pretty hard to legislate against a woman taking high doses of ascorbic acid or massaging her own uterus to 'bring on a late period' while she lays in the privacy of her her own bedroom, wouldn't it?

or neem oil, that's the preferred method in some parts of India where I think abortion is illegal....

Anyways for all the women out there please read Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler.

I was made to read this when I went through puberty and you learn so much about your own body it is amazing. You do not have to use hormonal birth control. You do not have to use ovulation predictors to conceive, either. You just have to know about your own biochemistry.

[inri]

Originally Posted by James81

Out of curiosity, what does the idea of miscarriages have to do with abortion?

Are you all saying that because causes beyond our control cause more pre-natal humans to die that that means it's ok for us to go ahead and throw in and be a cause for that to happen as well? Like, welp, so many babies are already dying before they are born, we minus whale just go ahead and start killin' 'em as well?

I think the miscarriage stats speak to The stance that says: If you leave that fetus alone it will 'definitely' become a human being thing.

Not all embryos or fetuses will become a fully developed human, regardless of what a woman chooses to do with her body. A fetus is merely a 'potential' human being.

The miscarriage stats for me speak to the reality that a fetus is not a fully developed human being and is merely a living thing that is 'in the process' of becoming a human...there are many things that could happen along the way that could prevent this from occurring.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

Good for you.

That is such a snarky post.

here are some random pointless but snarky smilies

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

That is such a snarky post.

here are some random pointless but snarky smilies

I just decided to go ahead and bow out of any discussion with her because she's talking AT me, not to me. I really *do* wish her the best, though, and think it's great that she has such strong opinions on this.

[inri]

Originally Posted by James81

I gotta be honest with you, I stopped reading right there.

You're not talking to me specifically here. You're talking to the image you have of a typical pro-lifer.

Not really my cup of tea.

Well..seriously, when people use the argument, "I only believe in abortion if rape or incest are involved," aren't they really saying, "You know the consequences of having sex..you should have known better....therefore, deal with the consequences.?

I see someone who holds this stance as pretty much saying that a woman who enters into sex, not fully considering the possibility of becoming pregnant and as having a lack in judgment....or to use different words, 'being stupid.'

[inri]

Originally Posted by James81

I just decided to go ahead and bow out of any discussion with her because she's talking AT me, not to me. I really *do* wish her the best, though, and think it's great that she has such strong opinions on this.

Honestly James...I'm really sorry If I came through like that....I truly am enjoying the heck out of this discussion!!!!..and I very much appreciate anyone who holds a differing opinion than mine and chooses to engage me in conversation...I LOVE debating...it is a passion of mine...I actually generally develop really warm feelings for those who disagree with me as they are responsible for getting my juices flowing!!...but perhaps I do tend to depersonalize at times so I am capable of voicing my disagreement....I really did not mean to come off as angry or talking AT you...my honest and sincere apologies.

[James81]

Originally Posted by inri

Honestly James...I'm really sorry If I came through like that....I truly am enjoying the heck out of this discussion!!!!..and I very much appreciate anyone who holds a differing opinion than mine and chooses to engage me in conversation...I LOVE debating...it is a passion of mine...I actually generally develop really warm feelings for those who disagree with me as they are responsible for getting my juices flowing!!...but perhaps I do tend to depersonalize at times so I am capable of voicing my disagreement....I really did not mean to come off as angry or talking AT you...my honest and sincere apologies.

Thank you for your apology. No biggie, I could see it's something you feel strongly about, and I can relate to that.

[inri]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

or neem oil, that's the preferred method in some parts of India where I think abortion is illegal....

Anyways for all the women out there please read Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler.

I was made to read this when I went through puberty and you learn so much about your own body it is amazing. You do not have to use hormonal birth control. You do not have to use ovulation predictors to conceive, either. You just have to know about your own biochemistry.

Awesome advice! Hmmm...neem oil..never heard of that one....(only for toothpaste!) ......there's another to add the the list.

I came across an awesome site called, 'sisterzeus.com.' It's a wealth of information on women's reproductive health as well...she's even compiled her own studies on the efficacy rates of certain herbal abortificants and birth control methods.

I really love the idea of women managing their personal health issues as a collective, sharing information and ideas and helping one another with full understanding of all it means to be a woman...instead of judging....and I love the idea that we do seem to be moving towards more of a 'tribal' vibe with this sharing.

[mikej]

I'm pro-choice. I think a woman should have the ultimate say on what happens to her body.

I doubt there are many women out there who take the decision to abort lightly and even fewer who simply forget about it once it's done. It must surely be an upsetting experience for most (if not all) women who go through with it.

So for other people to judge someone who has been through it seems a bit callous to me. Of course, it can be argued that terminating a life is also callous but so too is bringing a child into the world that you don't want, don't love and may never want or love.

imo.

[sorter]

I'm not especailly pro-life or pro-choice. I'm pro ideals.
Picking apart the logic of this issue is very enlightening about how we value and think about life and related "rights."

Originally Posted by inri

Inside means it is completely dependent upon my life, body and very person-hood...it means that it is growing in and off of my body, my blood, my nourishment, my being. A fetus is 'attached' to the woman's body in such a way that you could say it is a 'part' of her body...as without the woman's body, there is no life, period.

So, if a surrogate will have your baby for you, then you have no right to abort it, correct?

Originally Posted by inri

And...here's the two biggies...1. most will agree that as fully developed humans, we have autonomy over our own body...AND 2. a fetus is NOT a fully developed human (particularly at the stage that most abortions are performed) capable of feeling or perceiving anything, (according to what science currently presents regarding brain/nervous system development).

Those are ideas about something real--a fetus.
More ideas. A fetus has it's own body, it's just dependant on yours.
A fetus has potential for life just as much as anyone else. Saying it's not a life is irrelevant.

t4488's hypothetical person (let's call him Bob) is equally dependent on you.
And my addition to the hypothetical, both Bob and the fetus are an equal burden or risk to you.

So, if you're pro-life, you must do everything you can for Bob.
If you're pro-choice you can kill the poor bastard.
.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by mikej

I'm pro-choice. I think a woman should have the ultimate say on what happens to her body.

I doubt there are many women out there who take the decision to abort lightly and even fewer who simply forget about it once it's done. It must surely be an upsetting experience for most (if not all) women who go through with it.

So for other people to judge someone who has been through it seems a bit callous to me. Of course, it can be argued that terminating a life is also callous but so too is bringing a child into the world that you don't want, don't love and may never want or love.

imo.

I can't give you anymore rep point, MJ, but I just wanted to say good on you.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by inri

Awesome advice! Hmmm...neem oil..never heard of that one....(only for toothpaste!) ......there's another to add the the list.

I came across an awesome site called, 'sisterzeus.com.' It's a wealth of information on women's reproductive health as well...she's even compiled her own studies on the efficacy rates of certain herbal abortificants and birth control methods.

I really love the idea of women managing their personal health issues as a collective, sharing information and ideas and helping one another with full understanding of all it means to be a woman...instead of judging....and I love the idea that we do seem to be moving towards more of a 'tribal' vibe with this sharing.

Absolutely. Great post.

[inri]

Originally Posted by sorter

Picking apart the logic of this issue is very enlightening about how we value and think about life and related "rights."

I agree...love it!

So, if a surrogate will have your baby for you, than you have no right to abort it, correct?

The person who is serving as host to the fetus has the rights, so long as it is part of her body, imo.

Those are ideas about something real--a fetus.
More ideas. A fetus has it's own body, it's just dependant on yours.

Yes, For me personally, the 'idea' of the fetus depending 'solely' upon a woman's cooperation and body for it's life is of extreme importance regarding this issue.

A fetus has potential for life just as much as anyone else. Saying it's not a life is irrelevant.

The key word is 'potential.' The pregnant woman is not a 'potential' human...she is a full-fledged, fully developed human being....while debate abounds over whether or not an embryo constitutes a human being, fully deserving of rights, no such argument exists when it comes to an actual woman.

t4488's hypothetical person (let's call him Bob) is equally dependent on you.
And my addition to the hypothetical, both Bob and the fetus are an equal burden or risk to you.

I'm guessing that 'Bob' is not an embryo, devoid of full human development then? If he is a fully developed human being, capable of feeling, thinking and experiencing suffering, pain...who has hopes and dreams and a desire to continue his life, I would view him as differently than an embryo in a woman's uterus, yes...and would not personally find it ethical to remove him from my experience.

If you're pro-choice you can kill the poor bastard.

Not me....I'm only pro-choice when the life in question resides in the body of another human being....ie; is not yet a fully developed, full-functioning human who can live outside the body of it's host.

[Solipsist]

This is probably the singularly most contentious issue of our times. I find it interesting that it should be in the threads of a Personal Development forum.

When I was a devout Roman Catholic, I used to be passionately pro-life, and vehemently anti-abortion. Yet, after coming to many realizations about myself and the world in which I live, I have come to understand things more clearly, within a broader context.

First of all, I still believe that a human life begins at conception. Whether you call it an "embryo", a "fetus", or a "baby," it is still where we all start out in our physical existence. I also think that anyone countering this claim does not see the simple fact of the matter, and is likely making excuses in a lame attempt to justify the termination of human life.

However, in the broader scheme of things, there is what can be termed a "quality of life" issue that faces every mother, in her responsibility whether or not to bear that human life. There are also particular circumstances surrounding the conception of a child that weigh upon a mother's decision whether or not to abort it. In light of this, and in light of the fact that it is a decision to be made, (ultimately by the mother, of course, but hopefully with consideration for the father's and/or the parent's input), I am, then, at my core, pro-choice.

There are, of course, extremes at both ends of the spectrum of this issue, which belie the label they've given themselves. Some have gone to the trouble of planting bombs and killing doctors willing to perform abortions and call themselves "pro-life"; I have also known mothers so vehemently "pro-choice", that they insist that if their teenage daughters got pregnant, they would handcuff them and take them to the abortion clinic themselves.

All of which shows the contention, of course, but also shows that this is not a black/white issue. That said, I do not think that either end of that spectrum can or should be dictated by law. The only solace that I have found in regards to this issue is simple compassion--compassion for the child who is terminated, or otherwise born and raised under adverse conditions; compassion for the mother, who has to make such a decision, which will, in any event, affect her for the rest of her life; compassion for the parents of pregnant teenagers; compassion for the father, whose input is, at times, completely ill-regarded; even compassion for the doctor who performs the procedure. It's just not a cut-and-dried issue, and I really don't think anyone has the right to dictate what a woman must do in the case of making such a decision, except the woman herself. It is she who has to live with the consequences. Yes, it is a human life, but until it is a fully developed human life, the responsibility for its development ultimately lies with the mother.

[beast]

Originally Posted by Elrond

Live there? Been there? It's great except for not being very warm. ^^

<off topic>I've lived in Scandinavia for about 15 months, but never Norway. I've spent a month traveling around there, though, and I love love love it. Where in Norway are you from? </> But I still don't think you can compare forced conscription (which I'm against, even in tiny, peaceful countries like Norway) to the exertion of control, by the state, over a private citizen's food and drink intake.


inri, I am not reading your posts to be at all belligerent, and I totally don't see you as having "talked at" James. I might be biased because I completely agree with you.

James, you've posted repeatedly that many of us don't "understand" the pro-life position, but it just reads as a convenient way to write us off. Of course there might just be a gap here that can't be closed, but it really looks like you're also trying to speak for us, and making our opinions out to be something they are not.

[secrets0stolen]

I think abortion could be thought of as an extension of the right to "not make a baby". In that, just cause you have an egg, you have no obligation to make a baby (hence the "just don't have sex!"). Likewise, when you have an embryo, you don't have an obligation to make a baby. The only thing that differentiates and embryo from a egg (or a sperm) is that it has a full set of DNA instead of a half set of DNA. An embryo still has no feelings or thoughts or desires, but is one step closer to "making a baby" if you want to.

Thoughts?

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by inri

Well..seriously, when people use the argument, "I only believe in abortion if rape or incest are involved," aren't they really saying, "You know the consequences of having sex..you should have known better....therefore, deal with the consequences.?

I see someone who holds this stance as pretty much saying that a woman who enters into sex, not fully considering the possibility of becoming pregnant and as having a lack in judgment....or to use different words, 'being stupid.'

Minus the speculation about what James is actually saying, minus the phrase you should have known better, and minus the phrase being stupid so it reads this way:

You know the consequences of having sex......therefore, deal with the consequences. I see someone who holds this stance as pretty much saying that a woman who enters into sex, not fully considering the possibility of becoming pregnant and as having a lack in judgment.

How is that not true. If you have sex there is a possibility that you will become pregnant. period. If you think there isn't, that is a lack of judgment. To make a comparison this is like saying I aimed a gun at my head and pulled the trigger but I never thought a bullet would come out.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by beast

But I still don't think you can compare forced conscription (which I'm against, even in tiny, peaceful countries like Norway) to the exertion of control, by the state, over a private citizen's food and drink intake.

OK. I've explained that comparison to the best of my ability, so I don't have anything more to say about that.

Originally Posted by beast

<off topic>I've lived in Scandinavia for about 15 months, but never Norway. I've spent a month traveling around there, though, and I love love love it. Where in Norway are you from? </>

Sunnfjord, "south fjord" ^^ That's on the west coast. I live somewhere else on the west coast now.