Personal Development for Smart People^TM Forums

LostMyMap · 01-05-2011, 07:04 AM

I'm going to use this thread to track things with respect to my ongoing relationship drama. Gawd, this is going to read like a Lifetime channel movie.

Anyway, the story is, after going nowhere with marriage counseling, my wife pretty much shut down the relationship a few months ago. She has been depressed, and seeing her therapist, and I didn't really know what was happening. I had made a decision to not leave her, and commit to the relationship and try to find a way to make it work. I thought this would be good news to her, but she was basically shut down by this time.

Well things dragged on, as usual. I would let her be for awhile (giving her 'space'). Then bring it up again. What do you want to do? Do you want to work this out? How can we do something to move forward? Are you going to leave me? I've come at it from every angle. The single answer I get back: "I don't know." So frustrating. No information coming out at all. Nothing I can work with.

I pressed for something to happen back at the beginning of Dec. She finally agreed to go back to the first counselor we went to, but ONLY him. Since she is working now, she has to have after hours appointments. The next one available is February frakking 7th! Fit perfectly with her avoidance strategy.

Well December, you know how that is, holidays and all. Last week I was home (without her ) to see my family, including my new nephew, the happiest baby on the planet! This did two things. ( Well a lot more really ). One, it strengthened my feelings that I want to be a father. Two, it gave me a chance to think.

I've been walking a fine line between giving my wife space to work out her own issues, trying to have patience, and respecting myself in all this. I've erred on the side of patience. That has been worthless.

So I decided to start turning up the heat. Seems to me that after five months, and who knows how many therapist appointments, and talking to here mother, she should have some idea. Her actions are pointing in one clear direction, her leaving. But she maintains that she doesn't have a plan and is just living day-to-day.

So today I started. I asked her again what she wants to do. I reiterated that by not doing anything, she is wasting away my life. I asked again, please give me some information, anything. She said she doesn't have any answers and nothing to tell me.

Then she just fell back to reminding me that we have a counseling appointment. As if somehow this guy is going to have some magic potion. He isn't and there's no reason we can't start talking now. I told her she needs to start making a decision. Basically I want her to give me a marriage or give me a divorce. But being in limbo is killing me.

So my goal is to no longer honor the request to not talk until Feb 7th. Screw that. I am going to keep pushing for us to communicate. She can either talk to me, or run away. But I am not going to waste another year of my life waiting. My patience is done, and right or wrong, I'm going to keep cranking it up till I get a response.

So, why don't I just leave her? Rather complicated, but I will start with this. I made a commitment not to. I don't break commitments lightly.

If this all seems whacky, well I haven't laid out all the details, but it does make sense in my head. So I'm not looking for huge amounts of advice. No one has answers for this anyway. Support from my friends is always welcome!

Helms a-lee!

votoshka · 01-05-2011, 07:24 AM

I think the problem here is that she is waiting for YOU to decide. She may be hoping that you initiate the divorce, so she doesn't have to, and thus she won't be the "bad guy" in the relationship. She may even be hoping that the counsellor will tell you to do exactly that, and then it won't be her decision!

Still, I agree you need to push the issue. You need to at least make in uncomfortable for her to remain in the status quo.

curiouslyrandom · 01-05-2011, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

So today I started. I asked her again what she wants to do. I reiterated that by not doing anything, she is wasting away my life. I asked again, please give me some information, anything. She said she doesn't have any answers and nothing to tell me.

You are asking for her to decide, to commit, to do something, anything. I think Votoshka's right, she may be waiting for YOU to decide and be the "bad guy".

Quote:

So, why don't I just leave her? Rather complicated, but I will start with this. I made a commitment not to. I don't break commitments lightly.

As my mother used to say in times like this, "there's a time to fish, and a time to cut bait." It seems you wife has made her decision and is choosing to voice it by not saying anything at all.

Sometimes the hardest part of loving someone is letting them go when the time comes. It doesn't mean you have to stop loving each other, but maybe you both are heading in new directions, and staying together is holding you both back. It's like standing at the edge, wind in your face, while the other person is leaning the opposite direction... do you go with fear, or with love?

aelle · 01-05-2011, 09:37 PM

I am glad to read an update from you ; even if I didn't post much it in I followed your previous thread.

A suggestion: I understand that you want to get your marriage back. How about, instead of waiting for your wife to grant you a marriage, you work on rebuilding it yourself? I did a similar "relationship engineering" with my mother over the last few months, although probably on a much smaller scale and in a completely different setup, but the idea is the same. It's not so much manipulation with all its negative connotations as the realization that all the actions we take, all our behaviors, all that we say influence the behavior and feelings of the other person, so why not choose them carefully and use them to engineer the relationship to the result we want? Reading about operant conditioning (the things you learn when training a dog...) was invaluable to me in noticing how some of my not-too-thought-out behaviors were reinforcing undesireable results in my relationships, and how I could change this.

gingerbaker · 01-05-2011, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aelle

Reading about operant conditioning (the things you learn when training a dog...) was invaluable to me in noticing how some of my not-too-thought-out behaviors were reinforcing undesireable results in my relationships, and how I could change this.

Momentray hijack: Really? Does that mean my book recommendation helped?

Or were you already on that path? (Glad either way!) /hijack

LostMyMap · 01-05-2011, 10:03 PM

yeah, that bad guy thing. I had to be the bad guy to end my first marriage. That one was more clear because it was becoming a matter of my personal safety. But I still didn't like it.

This time, I really don't want to. My reasoning may not be too solid, but it just doesn't feel right. The other counselor brought up the idea of amicable separation. That is, if it has to end, we do it peacefully and together. I don't want to have to drop a bomb to get a resolution.

This is someone who's main strategy for dealing with conflict is avoidance. I have done my best to examine my own actions and behaviours. I certainly haven't been perfect. But when one person is totally out of the game, you can't do all that much.

Thanks for all the comments. Keep 'em coming!

moonrambler · 01-05-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Well December, you know how that is, holidays and all. Last week I was home (without her ) to see my family, including my new nephew, the happiest baby on the planet! This did two things. ( Well a lot more really ). One, it strengthened my feelings that I want to be a father.

I didn't participate in your other thread and I don't know if I'm remembering it all perfectly well. This paragraph struck me though, because of what I can remember, your wife has definitively decided she does not want children.

Are you staying in this marriage in the hopes of changing her mind? Are you actually genuinely ready to drop the idea of having children? It does not sound like it from what you wrote here. Do you think any of her attitude is because she knows for sure you do want kids, and you are going to keep trying to change her?

This may be the biggest lifestyle issue of all in any marriage, and not one where you can agree to disagree.

LostMyMap · 01-05-2011, 10:34 PM

You're right moon, pretty much a black and white issue, and neither of us has budged. I did suggest a couple of alternatives that could have worked, but she didn't like it much.

We both have been divorced, so we both know the pain it causes, and who wants that? We're probably both doing some avoiding there. I guess I'm finally getting to the point where being stuck in the mud is seeming more painful. Play me or trade me. But don't leave me on the bench.

spacecadetglow · 01-05-2011, 10:40 PM

Hey LMM, I think moonrambler makes a good point. I don't think you're being fair to yourself by compromising one of your deepest desires, to be a father, just for the sake of a commitment. I guess if I were in your position, I'd ask myself how well that commitment is serving me.

It also seems like you're putting the onus of responsibility entirely on her, and maybe in her mind she is doing the same to you! It's like neither of you wants to be the one to say it...

LostMyMap · 01-05-2011, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Hey LMM, I think moonrambler makes a good point. I don't think you're being fair to yourself by compromising one of your deepest desires, to be a father, just for the sake of a commitment. I guess if I were in your position, I'd ask myself how well that commitment is serving me.

It also seems like you're putting the onus of responsibility entirely on her, and maybe in her mind she is doing the same to you! It's like neither of you wants to be the one to say it...

Good points. I said last Aug. that I wouldn't ditch her. Even though things are worse since then, if I say something different, aren't I a lying schmuck? Not to mention that bit about "till death do us part"?

I struggle with moral integrity versus going after what I really want.

spacecadetglow · 01-05-2011, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Good points. I said last Aug. that I wouldn't ditch her. Even though things are worse since then, if I say something different, aren't I a lying schmuck? Not to mention that bit about "till death do us part"?

I struggle with moral integrity versus going after what I really want.

To answer that, I'll direct you to one of my favorite Emerson quotes:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day."

Of course you're not a lying shmuck, you're a guy who's not sure of what he wants. And that's okay.

Angela · 01-05-2011, 11:00 PM

I'm glad to hear your update, too! Also glad you're turning up the heat.

For me, partnership means that both partners must be a stand for the partnership -- that is, that each chooses to be at cause in the matter of the partnership's and both partners' well-being. If she's not being that stand, she's not being that stand. It doesn't mean she's a bad person, it only means she's not choosing to be your partner.

So I guess your question, if you were to use that perspective, would be: how long are you willing to pretend to be partners with someone who isn't choosing to be your partner?

You get to choose.

LostMyMap · 01-05-2011, 11:29 PM

That's an interesting perspective. If one party has pretty much backed out of the contract, the other one isn't obligated to honor it anymore.

I think the answer to 'how long' needs to be, until Feb 7. I'll keep talking and asking for a door to open until then. If nothing significant changes, then I go into the counseling appointment and put my cards on the table.

votoshka · 01-05-2011, 11:45 PM

It is a great thing to make a committment and honor it... but what is the cost? Let's say you decide to stay with her forever. Then what? If she doesn't change... you'll be miserable... you won't have kids... you won't be able to get to follow your dreams. I can tell that having children REALLY means something to you!

Sometimes I think we put things like vows and committment etc. too high on our list of priorities. It sounds good in theory to stick to a vow, but what if it makes you a miserable wretch for the next 50 years? That makes you a martyr more than anything else, and in the end it's for what?? Just so you could say you made a vow and kept it?

Honestly, I'd rather 50 years of happiness and contentment, even if it means that I didn't keep my word. Ultimately, your wife might be happier too, as she may find a man who already has kids, or who doesn't want kids, and then it doesn't matter so much that she can't have them. SHE won't be feeling this pressure from you, and nor will she feel resentment from you because your dreams haven't come to pass.

spacecadetglow · 01-05-2011, 11:49 PM

^ What she said.

LMM, I think waiting until Feb. 7 seems like a good plan. But we all know the definition of insanity... how many times have you asked her now and she's given you the same non-response? But then you said you've tried giving her space, too, and that doesn't seem to work either... so maybe you could work on accepting her exactly as she is, a la Angela's suggestion. Sad as it may be, don't expect her to respond to you anymore? I mean in the time frame from now until february, when I assume by "laying your cards on the table" you mean express your desire for a divorce.

curiouslyrandom · 01-06-2011, 01:15 AM

I could PM this, but I'm going to say it out loud instead: LMM, this forum is more fun when you're here. You're a happy person who deserves a relationship that expands that happiness even further. I seriously want you to have that in your life. Honestly, I do. Whatever it takes.

LostMyMap · 01-06-2011, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

I could PM this, but I'm going to say it out loud instead: LMM, this forum is more fun when you're here. You're a happy person who deserves a relationship that expands that happiness even further. I seriously want you to have that in your life. Honestly, I do. Whatever it takes.

Jeez, I'm getting all teary eyed. You are awesome CR. Thanks!

Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi · 01-06-2011, 06:40 PM

Why do you ask for my input man, I've told you in so many other mediums the same thing - it's pretty clear that you guys have diverged in terms of what you want out of life. That change happened on her part after she decided 5 years in that she didn't want any kids, after putting forth the effort. I understand that fertility treatments can be pretty brutal, emotionally. I'm not sure of the context, but I assumed when I first encountered you on the forums that you had already sort of tuned out of the marriage. There isn't much of a relationship going on.

But I am a rip the bandaid off kinda gal. I don't really understand what you are committed to. Neither of you seem even content with the situation right now. I'm sorry! I wish it were different and things could easily disengage. Sending you healing vibes.

ssandra · 01-06-2011, 11:08 PM

I'm glad to hear that she took at least this (tiny though it might be) step forward to talk to the counselor again...

Have you tried any of my previous recommendations? Asking her out on dates, seducing her again etc? Just having some plain old fun together?

Either way, I am absolutely confident that in the end you will choose the best way for you. And you will know that you have given it your all, even if you decide to not continue this marriage.

LostMyMap · 01-06-2011, 11:31 PM

Hmmm. I think I fell flat on the seduction thing. Up till the holidays, we were still doing fun things on the weekend. Zoo, etc. I guess we each have a good time, but not like 'we' have a good time.

ssandra · 01-06-2011, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Hmmm. I think I fell flat on the seduction thing. Up till the holidays, we were still doing fun things on the weekend. Zoo, etc. I guess we each have a good time, but not like 'we' have a good time.

It might be something you want to try... if you want to fight for the relationship you could start at a lot worse points then trying to seduce her again...

LostMyMap · 01-06-2011, 11:44 PM

"if you want to fight for the relationship "

I guess that's a major point. Ambivalence. Do I really want to fight for it? Is there a relationship left to fight for? No point in it if the other person is just done.

Gracestars · 01-06-2011, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

"if you want to fight for the relationship "

I guess that's a major point. Ambivalence. Do I really want to fight for it? Is there a relationship left to fight for? No point in it if the other person is just done.

So why are you still there?

(a genuine question, btw)

rei · 01-06-2011, 11:51 PM

LMM I am glad to get this update, though it sounds like some of the story came out when I was swamped with other things.

This is the kind of impasse that makes me squirmy about commitment through marriage.

But. If she does seem done, and yet reinvigorating the relationship also wakes it up in other ways, would you feel differently? Or is it not worth the effort at this point? (If not, then... what is the point of sticking in the mud? Could it be your sense of her not deciding is partly acknowledgement of the same behavior in yourself?)

I think votoshka made some good points too. You do seem quite into fatherhood and I would hate for the world to lose a father who was so enthused about the job. I don't see you ready to part with that dream.

I vote yes to hanging tight until the 7th. As for keeping your word. That is the kind of reason I try my best not to ever say things like, "I want us to be together forever" within a relationship. Fact is, I don't know how we will each feel or where we will be. I'd rather not say something I don't intend to hold as truth. But if I had said what you said, and was faced with the choice of staying in such lackluster circumstances, I'm not sure I could stick it out.

LostMyMap · 01-07-2011, 01:11 AM

Rei,
You know, I don't want my situation to be something that deters marriage. It is something I truly believe in. It is hard, but there are so many benefits, that don't get much air time on this forum.

rei · 01-07-2011, 01:18 AM

Thank you for that. I believe my previous post was unfair as I have a generic intimacy wonk to sort out in terms of personal relationships (so it is actually more like I hung that on your account of the situation when it was already there). Happy to say I am forging ahead with that these days.

And the romantic in me loves the prospect of marriage. Thank you for taking the time to mention that it has plenty of upsides

ssandra · 01-07-2011, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rei

Thank you for that. I believe my previous post was unfair as I have a generic intimacy wonk to sort out in terms of personal relationships (so it is actually more like I hung that on your account of the situation when it was already there). Happy to say I am forging ahead with that these days.

And the romantic in me loves the prospect of marriage. Thank you for taking the time to mention that it has plenty of upsides

Also remember rei; in terms of commitment there is no difference between a long term living together relationship or a marriage. In the end, it is still just a paper. There are people who live together and work out their issues and there are couples married who divorce at the first sign of trouble.

LostMyMap · 01-31-2011, 08:33 PM

I typed a big post here yesterday, hit Submit, but my login had timed out. It said to hit the back button, but everything was gone. Thanks vbulletin...

Anyway, the anxiety is building up. My digestive system is pretty much behaving like the Egyptian citizens right now. I solved a major business related problem last week that would have normally given me a warm fuzzy feeling, but didn't even phase me. It's all about Feb 7th now, and what happens in this long awaited appointment.

I've been working on this scheme were if I start this new business idea, I would do it in the midwest, and maybe buy a house back in my home town. This would allow me to have a part time place to stay, so I could go back more often, see my family, work the business out of the house and at least make enough to pay for it all. Maybe fly back once a month, or every other month or something.

Right now, houses are dirt cheap back there, lots of bank owned etc. Anyway, my wife knows about all this. Yesterday she heard me talking to a real estate agent that I have looking for properties for me. After the call, she was all full of questions. Like when was I going to do this, where was the money coming from, would I get the business up and running first etc. This is the same woman who doesn't want to talk about anything relating to our future, our marriage etc. But oh when money is involved, suddenly she gets talkative.

I answered some questions, but then I just called her on it, asking why she was so concerned. She said "well this is kind of a big deal isn't it". Thought to myself: "you mean like calling off having children without even discussing it with me first?".

She then questioned me as to why I was questioning her on asking so many questions. (hope that makes sense). I said that she hasn't wanted to talk about anything for the last few months except what's for dinner, so why was this different? She said "well I just hope you,....nevermind"

Arrggghhh. I'm just trying to move my life forward. I pretty much have it worked out what I'm going to do in this counseling appointment. I'm good with my decisions, but still, this is messing me up something terrible. It sucks when to get to the long term future you want you have to go through so much short term devastation.

ssandra · 01-31-2011, 08:36 PM

I'm sorry to hear that LMM. I hope that the 7th brings you the closure or new beginning that you are looking for.

Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi · 01-31-2011, 09:19 PM

frustrating. I also wish you well and hope you get what you need on feb 7. Just try to not put expectations on that date as a watershed moment.

01-05-2011, 07:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
LostMyMap Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 2,944	Turning Up the Heat I'm going to use this thread to track things with respect to my ongoing relationship drama. Gawd, this is going to read like a Lifetime channel movie. Anyway, the story is, after going nowhere with marriage counseling, my wife pretty much shut down the relationship a few months ago. She has been depressed, and seeing her therapist, and I didn't really know what was happening. I had made a decision to not leave her, and commit to the relationship and try to find a way to make it work. I thought this would be good news to her, but she was basically shut down by this time. Well things dragged on, as usual. I would let her be for awhile (giving her 'space'). Then bring it up again. What do you want to do? Do you want to work this out? How can we do something to move forward? Are you going to leave me? I've come at it from every angle. The single answer I get back: "I don't know." So frustrating. No information coming out at all. Nothing I can work with. I pressed for something to happen back at the beginning of Dec. She finally agreed to go back to the first counselor we went to, but ONLY him. Since she is working now, she has to have after hours appointments. The next one available is February frakking 7th! Fit perfectly with her avoidance strategy. Well December, you know how that is, holidays and all. Last week I was home (without her ) to see my family, including my new nephew, the happiest baby on the planet! This did two things. ( Well a lot more really ). One, it strengthened my feelings that I want to be a father. Two, it gave me a chance to think. I've been walking a fine line between giving my wife space to work out her own issues, trying to have patience, and respecting myself in all this. I've erred on the side of patience. That has been worthless. So I decided to start turning up the heat. Seems to me that after five months, and who knows how many therapist appointments, and talking to here mother, she should have some idea. Her actions are pointing in one clear direction, her leaving. But she maintains that she doesn't have a plan and is just living day-to-day. So today I started. I asked her again what she wants to do. I reiterated that by not doing anything, she is wasting away my life. I asked again, please give me some information, anything. She said she doesn't have any answers and nothing to tell me. Then she just fell back to reminding me that we have a counseling appointment. As if somehow this guy is going to have some magic potion. He isn't and there's no reason we can't start talking now. I told her she needs to start making a decision. Basically I want her to give me a marriage or give me a divorce. But being in limbo is killing me. So my goal is to no longer honor the request to not talk until Feb 7th. Screw that. I am going to keep pushing for us to communicate. She can either talk to me, or run away. But I am not going to waste another year of my life waiting. My patience is done, and right or wrong, I'm going to keep cranking it up till I get a response. So, why don't I just leave her? Rather complicated, but I will start with this. I made a commitment not to. I don't break commitments lightly. If this all seems whacky, well I haven't laid out all the details, but it does make sense in my head. So I'm not looking for huge amounts of advice. No one has answers for this anyway. Support from my friends is always welcome! Helms a-lee!

01-06-2011, 06:40 PM	#18 (permalink)
Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi Retired Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 3,662	Why do you ask for my input man, I've told you in so many other mediums the same thing - it's pretty clear that you guys have diverged in terms of what you want out of life. That change happened on her part after she decided 5 years in that she didn't want any kids, after putting forth the effort. I understand that fertility treatments can be pretty brutal, emotionally. I'm not sure of the context, but I assumed when I first encountered you on the forums that you had already sort of tuned out of the marriage. There isn't much of a relationship going on. But I am a rip the bandaid off kinda gal. I don't really understand what you are committed to. Neither of you seem even content with the situation right now. I'm sorry! I wish it were different and things could easily disengage. Sending you healing vibes. Last edited by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi; 01-06-2011 at 06:44 PM.

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01-05-2011, 07:24 AM	#2 (permalink)
votoshka Family Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 2,547	I think the problem here is that she is waiting for YOU to decide. She may be hoping that you initiate the divorce, so she doesn't have to, and thus she won't be the "bad guy" in the relationship. She may even be hoping that the counsellor will tell you to do exactly that, and then it won't be her decision! Still, I agree you need to push the issue. You need to at least make in uncomfortable for her to remain in the status quo.

01-05-2011, 09:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
aelle Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: France - Japan - Korea Posts: 3,241	I am glad to read an update from you ; even if I didn't post much it in I followed your previous thread. A suggestion: I understand that you want to get your marriage back. How about, instead of waiting for your wife to grant you a marriage, you work on rebuilding it yourself? I did a similar "relationship engineering" with my mother over the last few months, although probably on a much smaller scale and in a completely different setup, but the idea is the same. It's not so much manipulation with all its negative connotations as the realization that all the actions we take, all our behaviors, all that we say influence the behavior and feelings of the other person, so why not choose them carefully and use them to engineer the relationship to the result we want? Reading about operant conditioning (the things you learn when training a dog...) was invaluable to me in noticing how some of my not-too-thought-out behaviors were reinforcing undesireable results in my relationships, and how I could change this.

01-05-2011, 10:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
LostMyMap Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 2,944	yeah, that bad guy thing. I had to be the bad guy to end my first marriage. That one was more clear because it was becoming a matter of my personal safety. But I still didn't like it. This time, I really don't want to. My reasoning may not be too solid, but it just doesn't feel right. The other counselor brought up the idea of amicable separation. That is, if it has to end, we do it peacefully and together. I don't want to have to drop a bomb to get a resolution. This is someone who's main strategy for dealing with conflict is avoidance. I have done my best to examine my own actions and behaviours. I certainly haven't been perfect. But when one person is totally out of the game, you can't do all that much. Thanks for all the comments. Keep 'em coming!

01-05-2011, 10:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
LostMyMap Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 2,944	You're right moon, pretty much a black and white issue, and neither of us has budged. I did suggest a couple of alternatives that could have worked, but she didn't like it much. We both have been divorced, so we both know the pain it causes, and who wants that? We're probably both doing some avoiding there. I guess I'm finally getting to the point where being stuck in the mud is seeming more painful. Play me or trade me. But don't leave me on the bench.

01-05-2011, 10:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
spacecadetglow Family Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: where don't I live? Posts: 4,412	Hey LMM, I think moonrambler makes a good point. I don't think you're being fair to yourself by compromising one of your deepest desires, to be a father, just for the sake of a commitment. I guess if I were in your position, I'd ask myself how well that commitment is serving me. It also seems like you're putting the onus of responsibility entirely on her, and maybe in her mind she is doing the same to you! It's like neither of you wants to be the one to say it...

01-05-2011, 11:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
Angela Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 22,520	I'm glad to hear your update, too! Also glad you're turning up the heat. For me, partnership means that both partners must be a stand for the partnership -- that is, that each chooses to be at cause in the matter of the partnership's and both partners' well-being. If she's not being that stand, she's not being that stand. It doesn't mean she's a bad person, it only means she's not choosing to be your partner. So I guess your question, if you were to use that perspective, would be: how long are you willing to pretend to be partners with someone who isn't choosing to be your partner? You get to choose.

01-05-2011, 11:29 PM	#13 (permalink)
LostMyMap Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 2,944	That's an interesting perspective. If one party has pretty much backed out of the contract, the other one isn't obligated to honor it anymore. I think the answer to 'how long' needs to be, until Feb 7. I'll keep talking and asking for a door to open until then. If nothing significant changes, then I go into the counseling appointment and put my cards on the table.

01-05-2011, 11:45 PM	#14 (permalink)
votoshka Family Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 2,547	It is a great thing to make a committment and honor it... but what is the cost? Let's say you decide to stay with her forever. Then what? If she doesn't change... you'll be miserable... you won't have kids... you won't be able to get to follow your dreams. I can tell that having children REALLY means something to you! Sometimes I think we put things like vows and committment etc. too high on our list of priorities. It sounds good in theory to stick to a vow, but what if it makes you a miserable wretch for the next 50 years? That makes you a martyr more than anything else, and in the end it's for what?? Just so you could say you made a vow and kept it? Honestly, I'd rather 50 years of happiness and contentment, even if it means that I didn't keep my word. Ultimately, your wife might be happier too, as she may find a man who already has kids, or who doesn't want kids, and then it doesn't matter so much that she can't have them. SHE won't be feeling this pressure from you, and nor will she feel resentment from you because your dreams haven't come to pass.

01-05-2011, 11:49 PM	#15 (permalink)
spacecadetglow Family Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: where don't I live? Posts: 4,412	^ What she said. LMM, I think waiting until Feb. 7 seems like a good plan. But we all know the definition of insanity... how many times have you asked her now and she's given you the same non-response? But then you said you've tried giving her space, too, and that doesn't seem to work either... so maybe you could work on accepting her exactly as she is, a la Angela's suggestion. Sad as it may be, don't expect her to respond to you anymore? I mean in the time frame from now until february, when I assume by "laying your cards on the table" you mean express your desire for a divorce.

01-06-2011, 01:15 AM	#16 (permalink)
curiouslyrandom Family Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,286	I could PM this, but I'm going to say it out loud instead: LMM, this forum is more fun when you're here. You're a happy person who deserves a relationship that expands that happiness even further. I seriously want you to have that in your life. Honestly, I do. Whatever it takes.

01-06-2011, 11:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
ssandra Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Mexico City Posts: 11,168	I'm glad to hear that she took at least this (tiny though it might be) step forward to talk to the counselor again... Have you tried any of my previous recommendations? Asking her out on dates, seducing her again etc? Just having some plain old fun together? Either way, I am absolutely confident that in the end you will choose the best way for you. And you will know that you have given it your all, even if you decide to not continue this marriage.

01-06-2011, 11:31 PM	#20 (permalink)
LostMyMap Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 2,944	Hmmm. I think I fell flat on the seduction thing. Up till the holidays, we were still doing fun things on the weekend. Zoo, etc. I guess we each have a good time, but not like 'we' have a good time.

01-06-2011, 11:44 PM	#22 (permalink)
LostMyMap Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 2,944	"if you want to fight for the relationship " I guess that's a major point. Ambivalence. Do I really want to fight for it? Is there a relationship left to fight for? No point in it if the other person is just done.

01-06-2011, 11:51 PM	#24 (permalink)
rei Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere Posts: 9,713	LMM I am glad to get this update, though it sounds like some of the story came out when I was swamped with other things. This is the kind of impasse that makes me squirmy about commitment through marriage. But. If she does seem done, and yet reinvigorating the relationship also wakes it up in other ways, would you feel differently? Or is it not worth the effort at this point? (If not, then... what is the point of sticking in the mud? Could it be your sense of her not deciding is partly acknowledgement of the same behavior in yourself?) I think votoshka made some good points too. You do seem quite into fatherhood and I would hate for the world to lose a father who was so enthused about the job. I don't see you ready to part with that dream. I vote yes to hanging tight until the 7th. As for keeping your word. That is the kind of reason I try my best not to ever say things like, "I want us to be together forever" within a relationship. Fact is, I don't know how we will each feel or where we will be. I'd rather not say something I don't intend to hold as truth. But if I had said what you said, and was faced with the choice of staying in such lackluster circumstances, I'm not sure I could stick it out.

01-07-2011, 01:11 AM	#25 (permalink)
LostMyMap Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 2,944	Rei, You know, I don't want my situation to be something that deters marriage. It is something I truly believe in. It is hard, but there are so many benefits, that don't get much air time on this forum.

01-07-2011, 01:18 AM	#26 (permalink)
rei Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere Posts: 9,713	Thank you for that. I believe my previous post was unfair as I have a generic intimacy wonk to sort out in terms of personal relationships (so it is actually more like I hung that on your account of the situation when it was already there). Happy to say I am forging ahead with that these days. And the romantic in me loves the prospect of marriage. Thank you for taking the time to mention that it has plenty of upsides

01-31-2011, 08:33 PM	#28 (permalink)
LostMyMap Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 2,944	I typed a big post here yesterday, hit Submit, but my login had timed out. It said to hit the back button, but everything was gone. Thanks vbulletin... Anyway, the anxiety is building up. My digestive system is pretty much behaving like the Egyptian citizens right now. I solved a major business related problem last week that would have normally given me a warm fuzzy feeling, but didn't even phase me. It's all about Feb 7th now, and what happens in this long awaited appointment. I've been working on this scheme were if I start this new business idea, I would do it in the midwest, and maybe buy a house back in my home town. This would allow me to have a part time place to stay, so I could go back more often, see my family, work the business out of the house and at least make enough to pay for it all. Maybe fly back once a month, or every other month or something. Right now, houses are dirt cheap back there, lots of bank owned etc. Anyway, my wife knows about all this. Yesterday she heard me talking to a real estate agent that I have looking for properties for me. After the call, she was all full of questions. Like when was I going to do this, where was the money coming from, would I get the business up and running first etc. This is the same woman who doesn't want to talk about anything relating to our future, our marriage etc. But oh when money is involved, suddenly she gets talkative. I answered some questions, but then I just called her on it, asking why she was so concerned. She said "well this is kind of a big deal isn't it". Thought to myself: "you mean like calling off having children without even discussing it with me first?". She then questioned me as to why I was questioning her on asking so many questions. (hope that makes sense). I said that she hasn't wanted to talk about anything for the last few months except what's for dinner, so why was this different? She said "well I just hope you,....nevermind" Arrggghhh. I'm just trying to move my life forward. I pretty much have it worked out what I'm going to do in this counseling appointment. I'm good with my decisions, but still, this is messing me up something terrible. It sucks when to get to the long term future you want you have to go through so much short term devastation.

01-31-2011, 08:36 PM	#29 (permalink)
ssandra Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Mexico City Posts: 11,168	I'm sorry to hear that LMM. I hope that the 7th brings you the closure or new beginning that you are looking for.

01-31-2011, 09:19 PM	#30 (permalink)
Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi Retired Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 3,662	frustrating. I also wish you well and hope you get what you need on feb 7. Just try to not put expectations on that date as a watershed moment.

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