Bullying

[Mounds]

Far as I can tell, bullying is psychologically a really weird thing. It's tough to stand up to more than one person.... like, really hard. Hell, it's tough to stand up to one person if you think they're above you.
As for the bystanders, that's also psychologically tough. I remember a story of a woman who was murdered while over a dozen bystanders watched. They kept looking at each other to see if anyone was making a big deal out of it and since no one else was, they stayed the course.
I have a hard time putting the onus on the person who has a tremendous amount of psychology working against them. I put the onus on the bullies.

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Angela

Granting people the freedom to choose to feel bad. I think especially for women -- we're taught that we're not allowed to be detached! like it's our responsibility to prevent people from feeling bad.

Especially if they are our children!

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by scotthegeek

I afraid there are going to be more Callinbines and people going postal and more suicide if bullying is not stop. Most people don't understand the effect bullying can have on a person. when people see these tragedies they shake there head and say how come these things happen. I can only say I have felt suicide and homicidal at times because of bullying.

I understand it 100%. At some point, you do feel this way. You feel completely powerless and when people tell you to stand up for yourself, they might as well be telling you to drive your car into outer space. It's completely futile.
It is absolutely no wonder to me that people go nuts as a result of bullying. At some point, here are your options: either he goes or you go. Homicide, suicide or disappear.

-Tim

[Arcturus]

Bully the bullies - see how they like it.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Arcturus

Bully the bullies - see how they like it.

That's part of the problem, not the solution.

The bullies are bullies BECAUSE they are usually bullied themselves, at home as kids! My brother was bullied by my other brother, and he started martial arts to deal with him. Now HE is the bully!

[Angela]

You can be your standards while still granting others the freedom to be and do as they choose.

"Is this a club for people who have each others' back and who are a stand for everyone's success? or not? Either way is fine, but for me, this behavior is just totally inconsistent with who I am, so if being supportive of one another isn't the unanimous choice, I'll be moving on now. Whaddya say?"

[Lauxa]

Thank you for all the replies, it is nice to get some more opinions about this.

Originally Posted by elucidate

To me though, as a bystander I probably would have stepped in and made a loud noise to get their attention like "Öi" (aussie terminology)...and made eye contact with the ones doing the majority of the bullying whilst saying (what's going on here...why are you being this way to someone who isn't bothering you at all but minding their own business, don't you have anything better to do?" (I've done this before btw, with a boy who was getting hassled by some african boys at the library one day...the librarians just pretended it wasn't happening, like everyone else, and didn't step in!

I don't think I would have said stuff like what you suggested as that would only cause them to laugh and turn the focus of their attention onto me. Instead I would be saying something like "this is my club, and bullying isn't tolerated here, so I would like it if you leave if this is the way you are gonna behave"...and maintain eye contact with an authoritative voice that means business. I would not be gentle about it, but I also would not be too aggressive...just definite in my request for them to leave if they aren't gonna stop it!

To clarify the group dynamic, we were all seated. I would not have the authority to make such a statement as most of the people involved were long-time members of the club. But maybe I could say something like "We're trying to have a conversation here. Is that really necessary?"

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Or start throwing the juggling balls at the bullies...

Yah, I wish I'd had something close at hand to throw back at them.

Lauxa, are the owners of the club aware of the incident? I would speak to the owner and see how willing they would be in fostering an zero-tolerance atmosphere for this sort of behaviour. I personally wouldn't kick someone (or in this case a group) out the first time they behaved in such a fashion. I'd attempt to talk to them and warn then about their behaviour. And then kick them out if they refuse to cooperate.

If the owners will not cooperate, I'd just move on with my life and find a new place to hang out in.

The club organizer wasn't around when it happened, but I did speak to him later as I mentioned, just a question about bullying policy. His response didn't give me much hope of authority intervening in such situations. I'm pretty invested in the club and have met many wonderful people there, so I'm not going to let a couple of bullies that I hardly ever talk to chase me away.

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Wow, this all sounds like playground behaviour from grade school!

Yes!

I didn't see where giant had a role? Alpha isn't really an alpha. He is an alpha wannabe who is really just a jerk. You know what that makes wife then...

There were two giant guys sitting in the circle. They were not actively picking on wimp, but they were going along with it and laughing. But so was wimp, he was laughing, too. And I have hung out with those guys before and thought they were pretty cool, so I don't know what to think. I do think they would have intervened if the situation had escalated.

One of them did make a suggestion to jerk to flick his wrist when hitting wimp in the head with the soda bottle, which jerk rejected. Later he told me that if you hit someone that way it will make a louder noise but hurt less. I think he was trying to be helpful.

Wimp is in a tough situation because if he takes it, he plays into their cruelty. If he leaves, he is branded coward or whatever. And he isn't in a position to physically fight off jerk boy either, even if he wanted to. Interesting how that type of behaviour is contagious. Pixie probably would not have done it by herself.

Yes. But I also got the impression that "pick on wimp" was a bit of a continuing theme.

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

My kids and I have been talking about this kind of stuff a lot lately with all the recent goings on and they tell me how difficult it is to have some one intercede on your behalf when you are being bullied. The kids tell me that to have someone else "stick up for you", and in your case, a male having to be defended by a woman, just eventually makes things worse for the "victim".

Yes, I thought of that, too. That's one reason I didn't try harder to defend him.

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

This doesn't even sound real to me. Did you just make this **** up? Is this fiction? Because if it actually DID happen for real, then that is one ****ed up group of people in that club.

Eh, people are people.

I would have been more perplexed by the whole episode than angry. Which means I'd have wanted to just talk to one of them and get to know them a little bit more. If it's real, there's more to that story. My curiosity supersedes my ability to be angered in this situation.

That's a good point, maybe I'll talk to wife at next meeting and see if I can learn anything more. I've talked to her once before, she might be willing to enlighten me.

Originally Posted by scotthegeek

I know your trying to describe the situation but you called him a wimp and just about everyone in the thread started call him the wimp. except for the op everyone was picking on him and the manager did not care.

Wimp was simply the role he played in this interaction.

I know Dr. Phil did a show on Bullying and he said that if the bystanders do nothings they are just as guilty as the bully. Martin Luther King said its not the few bad people that do harm its all the good people that standby and do nothing that is how evil is allow to happen.

Which is why I posted this thread, to get some ideas for an appropriate response. I certainly don't want to intervene unskillfully and make the situation worse.

I think a lot of people don't want to get involved because they afraid that they might be bully too and there is the mob or herd mentality that kicks in when whole groups of people join in.

Yes, that is also a concern.

one more thing I know a lot of you don't understand why he did not stand up for himself. it hard to understand but if you been bully a lot you feel worthless and some time being pick on is not as bad being total alone. I know I may sound like I'm over reacting and I know everyone has been bully at one time or another but If you have no friends to tell you they are jerk and there is nothing wrong with you and everyone just lets it happens you feel that there is something wrong with you.

I have seen this kid get picked on before, but I always felt it was in a spirit of good natured fun; I never witnessed the kind of malicious undertone coming from jerk and wife before. Maybe that's his role in the group, the guy who gets teased. Sometimes when you let people get away with that, then it becomes very difficult to later assert yourself and say hey, I don't like that anymore.

Originally Posted by nxomsa

My previous comment might seem tongue in cheek, but I was thinking along the lines of dispersing the crowd, or distracting them, like you would shoo a flock of birds.

I think that would be hard with a seated group.

I strongly feel that the bullies actions should be punished. There should be a consequence. Next time it happens, and it probably will if their egos were inflated after this incident:

1. call the cops right away. you never know it might escalate and the big guy might have a baseball bat in his car.
2. take pictures . you need evidence. (think like a detective).
3. ask the cops to punish them somehow
4. give pictures (without victim) to club owner and demand they be banned from the club. Maybe he can post the pictures to humiliate the thugs.
5. tell the victim to carry mase so he can defend himself next time.

I think it's overkill to call in the police for a little bit of teasing. I don't think anyone would thank me for that, least of all wimp.

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

In the case that Lauxa describes, I wonder though if the boy, the "wimp", did not feel like he was being bullied? Its quite possible that he was "laughing it off" because he was not offended by the others behavior.

I watch my twelve year old son and his friends and how the interact with each other and my word! They are snarky and pushy and call each other names and boy! they just LOVE each other to bits!

Perhaps. But he did ask them to stop hitting him, and also stated clearly that he was non-violent and wasn't going to enforce that request. It didn't hurt much, you'll catch worse being accidentally knocked upside the head while passing clubs, but still.

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by elucidate

That's part of the problem, not the solution.

The bullies are bullies BECAUSE they are usually bullied themselves, at home as kids! My brother was bullied by my other brother, and he started martial arts to deal with him. Now HE is the bully!

I know what you're saying is true - it was a knee jerk reaction from me because I was bullied at school and I often wished the bullies could be shown pain and violence to give them a taste of their own medicine.

[scotthegeek]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Far as I can tell, bullying is psychologically a really weird thing. It's tough to stand up to more than one person.... like, really hard. Hell, it's tough to stand up to one person if you think they're above you.
As for the bystanders, that's also psychologically tough. I remember a story of a woman who was murdered while over a dozen bystanders watched. They kept looking at each other to see if anyone was making a big deal out of it and since no one else was, they stayed the course.
I have a hard time putting the onus on the person who has a tremendous amount of psychology working against them. I put the onus on the bullies.

there was an instants where a woman was being rape on a pool table in a bar and the people stood there and cheer. I think the bystanders where charged and there are laws in some states that you have to at the very least call 911 if you see a crime being committed.

I think a lot of people say I would never stand by and do nothing but if you have ever watched ABC's "What Would You Do?" most of the time people do nothing. one of the stranger shows. they pumped a room full of smoke and every one keep filling out the paper work they where doing. The one person that did not know it was setup saw that no one seem to care and did not leave the room even when he know his own life was in danger. I was freaking out watching the room filling with smoke and I knew it was a simulation.

Originally Posted by Mounds

I understand it 100%. At some point, you do feel this way. You feel completely powerless and when people tell you to stand up for yourself, they might as well be telling you to drive your car into outer space. It's completely futile.
It is absolutely no wonder to me that people go nuts as a result of bullying. At some point, here are your options: either he goes or you go. Homicide, suicide or disappear.

-Tim

Thanks for understanding that is a great comfort to me. If more people got it. It would be a better world. I'm not say to all the other that victims of bullying show not stand up for them self but how if they have not support.

20/20 did a story on bulling and the parent complain to the school about there son being bully and they did nothing about it and there son committed suicide by hanging and the next day the bully where wearing nooses around there neck at school and the school still did nothing I can't imagine how the family felt.

they where showing a girl that was bully on the internet they had flash animation and it show 6 way on how they could kill the girl.

[Leesah]

Originally Posted by scotthegeek

Thanks for understanding that is a great comfort to me. If more people got it. It would be a better world. I'm not say to all the other that victims of bullying show not stand up for them self but how if they have not support.

I agree with what you've wrote in this thread, Scot. And I can see you know what you're talking about because you've been through it. I guess you would have appreciated people sticking up for you, right?


I had a friend who was bullied in school. There's no way she could have got up and said "stop doing that", and even if she had she'd have been laughed at. And because she wasn't sticking up for herself I think it is appropriate for one of her friends to do it. The bully has to stop doing what they're doing, and yes it's better if the 'victim' is the one making them back off, but if they could do that they wouldn't be the victim. By sticking up for your friend you're telling them that they don't deserve that, and it's NOT ok for the bully to be doing what they're doing. Maybe some of your courage will also rub off on the friend being bullied. I think if you have the confidence to step in, and you don't, then you're basically saying "that's fine what that bully is doing to you, you don't deserve my support".

I do know though, that not many people DO have the confidence to stand up for their friends being bullied. It's difficult because the bully is more confrontational and violent by nature, that's why they're so good at being a bully. And there's the worry that it could all turn against you instead, or that you could get smacked in the face or something. I mean, if I'd thought sticking up for my friend would result in me being punched in the face I would probably be a bit more reluctant to step in!

.........

To the OP - what a **** situation. You really don't expect to hear that going on in a group of adults. I feel sorry for the 18 year old - that's still so young, and when you're lacking in confidence to stand up for yourself it's surely even more difficult when the bully is 30 and you're just 18, at that age that's a massive difference. And with everyone laughing he probably felt as though he had no choice but to let the bullies do it. It would feel like standing up to EVERYONE, not just the 'alpha male'/people throwing bottles.

I don't know what I'd do if I were you. I think I'd probably be intimidated by standing up to grown men/women, it could definitely turn nasty (although it's unlikely the men would hit YOU, the wife/girlfriend might ... and the guys may turn violent on the 18 year old). But I think something could be said if only to let the 18 year old know that you don't condone them doing that to him. Even if it doesn't stop the situation, I think he would feel slightly reasurred to know SOMEBODY was on his side and not laughing at him. (if it were me in his situation I would go home in floods of tears!! and I'm 25 ... so I do think showing a bit of support would be nice. But I understand it was an awkward situation for you).
I guess my only advice is invite the 18 year old over to another group of people at the next meet (if you like him enough to do so --- he sounds cool to me so I assume you would like him in your group). He could thrive around the right group of people, and the people he's spending time with at the moment are only bringing him down. He shouldn't put up with that. Perhaps you could point that out to him? He probably just accepts that everyone teases him, but he shouldn't. It might help to have it pointed out to him?

I think it would also be beneficial to get the 15 year old away from them (I can't believe 30 year olds are telling a 15 year old that throwing bottles in someone's face is acceptable ) ... but she's not really your problem, and I guess you don't want to create any drama, just enjoy yourself at your club. But I do think she'd benefit from interactions with kinder adults.

[faithsdaddy]

It's a hard call for the onlooker and I admit, I'm not sure what I'd do.

If I was the one being bullied, I would walk away, or retaliate with whatever it took to stop the bully. If I was being bullied by someone far more physical and felt that a violent assault was appropriate, I would do it. You can intimidate or overwhelm intellectually, but in my experience of these situations, that's really hard to pull off.

Fight or flight. Anything else will probably be a bit wishy washy.

[ssandra]

I think if I were in that situation I would have looked at those hitting the guy with bottles with a look that says "you guys are pathetic" and would have said something like;

"Really? You guys are what, 30, 40 years old and this (with the disgusting look) is what you do for fun?"

Then turn to the wimp and say;

"I'd love to talk to you about your recent diet change. When you're done playing, I'm over there, if you are interested".

And walk away, and sit somewhere else and ignore them completely.

[Elrond]

Maybe long-term he should try to be less of a wimp.

I think that the people in this thread who have said "lol why didn't he just leave??" don't have a frickin clue. People who are suggestible to be bullied (i.e. socially submissive, in a bad way) are also likely to care what others thinks - even if those people are ******** - and often a lot. Being in a situation can be a catch 22: they are too many to/they are too strong to stand up to socially/mentally/physically, but you look weak if you just leave (with your tails between your legs). In other words, there's really no way to get out of the situation, chin up thinking "I showed THEM!" If he wasn't a "wimp", as he so affectionately is called here, he maybe would have not cared enough about what those other people thought of him. But now he presumably is a wimp, so you can imagine that that often correlates with caring too much about how others view you. Sure he could leave as in, stop hanging out at the bar. But short term, not so easy. If you can't relate to the idea of being worried about how even ******** that treat you like dirt view you so much that you're frozen in a situation, I guess you have never had any (noticable) social phobia. Well good for you.

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

So what do you think wimp should have done in this situation? What would you have done as a bystander to this event?

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

When I look disapproving, I look very disapproving.

I would have given my most disapproving look .... to the wimp.

This is just another way to bully him further about his weakness to stand up for himself.


The joke is not on the wimp, it is on the older (but still immature) other people. Someone in his 30s, who bullies an 18 y/o, is certainly not an alphamale. It keeps amazing me to see how low people can sink if you show weakness. It must be some biological social darwinism of some sort. Best way to really get to know other people is to show some weakness in front of them. It exposes them. I sometimes do it on purpose (playing the forgetful fool, although I have a memory of an elefant...). Some people, who don't know me, think the joke is on me, but inside I chuckle....