How to deal with political correctness? [rape thread]

[yossarian]

So I was reading that rape thread - it has this tabooey smell wafting off of it.

Then I read this article about taboos. Paul Graham wrote a really excellent and interesting essay on What You Can't Say and his unique approach for dealing with it.

It's written from the perspective of maximizing some personal metric other than honesty. e.g. maximizing your profit or happiness or intelligence

Originally Posted by Paul Graham

What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. Dressing oddly gets you laughed at. Violating moral fashions can get you fired, ostracized, imprisoned, or even killed.

The author's essential point is that one should deal effectively with taboos by not telling your honest opinion. You should make a clear psychological divide in your mind between what you say (which is chosen to reap maximum benefit to yourself) and what you think (which can be your actual opinion, viewpoint, truth, whatever)

• What do you think of holding back your true opinion to maximize personal gain?
• Is this how you choose to live your life?
• Does this violate your concept of truth or honesty?
• Does it make you stupider?
• Do you start to believe your own lies?

If you're a person who follows his style,

• Do you find that it works?
• Are you able to find friends who you can be honest with, despite holding back from most people like he talks about?

For those of you who are social planners, change agents, brainwashing specialists, cult leaders, etc -- any role that specializes in controlling the thoughts of others -- what do you think of this strategy?

• Would it effectively route around your particular brand of mind control?
• Are you happy with it because the person who uses this strategy won't actively spread dangerous thoughts to others?
• Would you prefer this over brutal honesty?
• Would you prefer that he were brutally honest so you could make an example of him or attempt to re-educate him?

In my opinion the Steve Pavlina forum is like an incubator for those who deal with influence and mind control in general. I want to hear your thoughts on Paul Graham's life strategy for dealing with taboo ideas.

[elucidate]

What made you think it stunk of taboo Yoss? I'm curious, since it seemed to an open discussion that aimed towards debunking myths and raising awareness. The fact that people were participating in it at all shows that there was interest in looking past the taboo-ness, don't you think?

I agree that it does have a bit of a culty feel to it here though.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by yossarian

So I was reading that rape thread - it has this tabooey smell wafting off of it.
It's written from the perspective of maximizing some personal metric other than honesty. e.g. maximizing your profit or happiness or intelligence


The author's essential point is that one should deal effectively with taboos by not telling your honest opinion. You should make a clear psychological divide in your mind between what you say (which is chosen to reap maximum benefit to yourself) and what you think (which can be your actual opinion, viewpoint, truth, whatever)

• What do you think of holding back your true opinion to maximize personal gain?
• Is this how you choose to live your life?
• Does this violate your concept of truth or honesty?
• Does it make you stupider?
• Do you start to believe your own lies?

If you're a person who follows his style,

• Do you find that it works?
• Are you able to find friends who you can be honest with, despite holding back from most people like he talks about?

For those of you who are social planners, change agents, brainwashing specialists, cult leaders, etc -- any role that specializes in controlling the thoughts of others -- what do you think of this strategy?

• Would it effectively route around your particular brand of mind control?
• Are you happy with it because the person who uses this strategy won't actively spread dangerous thoughts to others?
• Would you prefer this over brutal honesty?
• Would you prefer that he were brutally honest so you could make an example of him or attempt to re-educate him?

In my opinion the Steve Pavlina forum is like an incubator for those who deal with influence and mind control in general. I want to hear your thoughts on Paul Graham's life strategy for dealing with taboo ideas.

I'm not sure why you feel holding back your honest opinion is beneficial. Being honest and true to yourself makes superficial talks a thing of the past and you discover more about yourself as time goes by and it helps others question their own ideals. If they lash out without control, then it means they probably don't have a successful rebuttal for your ideas or you are not listening.

[yossarian]

That thread is a demonstration of one way of discussing a taboo topic.

It made me think of Paul Graham's way of dealing with taboo topics.

It seems like some of the men in that thread left the thread because they felt it wasn't worth their while to stay and discuss any longer. James in particular.

The men were the ones saying stuff that is wrong, ignorant, chauvinist, sexist, stupid, bigoted, uninformed, etc. The women were all saying stuff that is correct, modern, enlightened, nuanced, compassionate, brave, strong.

You don't usually see threads where there is such a gender divide in terms of who is wrong and who is right. Usually there are wrong people from both sexes.

What do you think Paul Graham's strategy would do to change the tenor of that thread? What if everyone in the thread followed his technique for dealing with "What You Can't Say"?

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by st33med

I'm not sure why you feel holding back your honest opinion is beneficial.

Read the article..

[elucidate]

To be honest, I didn't read the article...but I will. I have an appointment that will take a few hours, so I'll get back to it later and answer your question.

Originally Posted by yossarian

That thread is a demonstration of one way of discussing a taboo topic.

It made me think of Paul Graham's way of dealing with taboo topics.

It seems like some of the men in that thread left the thread because they felt it wasn't worth their while to stay and discuss any longer. James in particular.

The men were the ones saying stuff that is wrong, ignorant, chauvinist, sexist, stupid, bigoted, uninformed, etc. The women were all saying stuff that is correct, modern, enlightened, nuanced, compassionate, brave, strong.

You don't usually see threads where there is such a gender divide in terms of who is wrong and who is right. Usually there are wrong people from both sexes.

What do you think Paul Graham's strategy would do to change the tenor of that thread? What if everyone in the thread followed his technique for dealing with "What You Can't Say"?

[ssandra]

• What do you think of holding back your true opinion to maximize personal gain?

• I think that is a very intelligent way to live your life. I don't believe in honesty above all. I think that there are values more important than honesty.
  
  

  Is this how you choose to live your life?

  In part, yes. I don't believe everything that arises in my mind needs to be said. Sometimes it is better to not say anything.
  
  Although.. I wouldn't do it for my personal gain, I'm realizing. Or at least, not as much.
  For example; if I'm at a party where everybody is speaking against gays/jews/black people/what have you I WOULD speak up and say something, even if it would not benefit me personally. Even if they would be people who would somehow cost me money if I speak my mind, I'd still speak my mind.
  
  On the other hand, there have also been times when people are talking for example about how horrible cheating is, and I've not told them my opinion about it, in order to keep fitting in (around family for example).
  
  Now that I'm truly considering the subject... I believe that there are values that I hold higher than Truth and Honesty, but I hardly ever NOT speak my mind.
  
  

  Does this violate your concept of truth or honesty?

  No. I have no problem with admitting that I am not always honest, although it will be more about NOT saying anything, instead of lying.
  
  

  Does it make you stupider?

  No. It makes me have values that I consider more important then truth and honesty.
  
  

  Do you start to believe your own lies?

I used to, back in the day when I used to lie to get out of school or work.. I'd actually start feeling ill... Not anymore. I don't see the point of lying for those things anymore.

[ssandra]

In once sentence;

I don't always tell the truth, but I hardly ever lie.

[NDN Scholar]

I know this girl. She's an okay sort of person, I go out for coffee with her sometimes, but there's something about her. I once went drinking with her guy friends, and two of them (out of four) were drunkenly revelling in racist jokes. The other two were rolling their eyes, and we were having our own discussion. They were all white.

Now, if I weren't there, it makes me wonder how many more jokes those two bastards had in their pockets, you know? Didn't holler back at them after that night, and it gives me an unsettling feeling about the girl, too. Pisses me off. If they had the nerve to say anything to my face, so help me God...

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by NDN Scholar

I know this girl. She's an okay sort of person, I go out for coffee with her sometimes, but there's something about her. I once went drinking with her guy friends, and two of them (out of four) were drunkenly revelling in racist jokes. The other two were rolling their eyes, and we were having our own discussion. They were all white.

If I was there, I would have said something to the other 2. I wouldn't have just kept quiet.

If I may ask (I'm curious ) why didn't you say anything to them?