Sibling issues!

[Holden McNeil]

I've got a younger sister who's 17 (I'm 21), and ever since going into PD (it's been about 9 months since I first read Steve's blog) I've been noticing, more and more, just how much of a negative vibe she lets off around the house, especially around me (being the closest peer, I suppose). So I'm wondering what to do about it.

Anyway, the reason I'm asking is that she's very stubborn and immature, and plays the "victim card" a lot. She makes it an almost daily habit to complain endlessly about everyone else (especially teachers, and other girls at school), and she always seems to be making excuses for why she can't achieve things. For instance, she has a test at school tomorrow, but today she said "because the teacher pissed her off" yesterday, she was making it a point not to bring her books home, so she can't study... as a kind of "revenge" against the teacher giving out the test. *Shrugs*

I'm assuming it's because she's afraid of failing, and doesn't want to accept a failure as validation for not being good enough (damage her ego/self-esteem.) So she plays the victim, blames everyone and everything else for her problems, and basically makes herself (and everyone else) believe that her life is really tough and hard. Also, I've never heard her say she was sorry, or she was wrong (I'm serious). She's very emotionally intense, has mood swings almost all the time (when I wake up each morning, I don't know whether I'll get Ms. Sunshine or the Devil Incarnate, put it that way )

Anywho, I find I'm the complete opposite. I'm really relaxed and mature, I almost always take the responsibility for everything to do with me (I rarely, if ever, blame other people). I admit when I'm wrong, I say sorry when I'm sorry, I genuinely want to learn and find out where I'm lacking, etc. And being into PD so much lately, I find I'm only improving. So the disparity between us gets larger and larger.

It's pretty much impossible to reason with her, because she's so caught up in her own immature mind games (last night was a really big example of that) ... so i'm particularly frustrated when I try and talk to her about something, because even if i'm 100% right about something, she won't hear it. She uses me frequently in her rants and raves, about how I always get everything, and she gets nothing, and my parents love me more than her, etc, etc. It's so very not true; my parents are really, really good people. It's like she ENJOYS being a victim... I don't know, or get it.

But I find that her negativity really gets to me. I ask my parents for a favour, and she's straight away saying things like "what are you going to do for me? oh so it's okay you do things for (Holden) but not for me? oh, that's just great. oh, so you're not listening to me now? oh that's right, you never listen to me. but you always listen to (Holden) don't you? huh?" <--- just one example. She literally tries to bait my parents (and me) into arguments that validate her victimhood. She's the queen of Strawman arguments too (my parents say she'd make a great lawyer, LOL )

I've read Steve's post about "how to deal with negative people" and the one about dealing with relatives, but I find that it's just too intense. I can't reason with her, and I can't particularly ignore her, either. I don't want to have to eat dinner in another room and completely avoid whatever room she's in. Being in the same house kinda sucks. And I don't want to have to move out just for that. If she doesn't listen to anything, and constantly sees through a stubborn, victim perspective (which she seems to like), and is always talking negative, and otherwise causing chaos in the house... what can I do? Is there anything I'm missing? I genuinely love my sister, and I would help her if I knew how. But at the moment I just feel like moving out and completely ignoring her, because the negativity really pulls me down sometimes.

[sept]

I know it's hard. But, try to be her friend. When she speaks negatively about something, continue on in a positive manner. Speak positively, think positively, act positively. Walk away if she berates you. Let her know that you care. But, you can't be with her or enjoy her company if she treats you and your family poorly.

Meditation could help in keeping you calm and will give you new reserves of energy when dealing with her. Remember to breathe!

Once things are getting a little easier for you to deal with, maybe spend some time with her just hanging out and doing something you both enjoy. It's hard for someone to complain if they are having fun! Of course, you will have to build on this slowly since she is extremely negative.

You say you don't want to move out of your parents home because of her and I agree you should not do that. Even if you totally avoid her, the lesson will reappear later in time with her or someone else.

It sounds like she is being a typical spoiled teenager. In time, she should outgrow this with love and support from her family.

Good luck!

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Holden McNeil

I genuinely love my sister, and I would help her if I knew how.

Tough gig dude, but it sounds like you've got the right attitude. You'd know better than me, but it seems as George said, typical angst-ridden teenage girl.

Having never had to deal with someone like that on a day-to-day personal level, I have no idea what you could do to help her that would work, but I believe that maintaining your own positive attitude will help you.

I'm sure others here, especially those with teenagers of their own, can offer more advice, but there's probably forums out there dedicated to dealing with teenagers. Have you tried them?

If I were in your shoes I'd probably sit her down, tell her that no-one is going to do anything for her just because she demands it, and that unless she accepts responsibility for her own life, it will become the hell she believes it to be. And that I will be there to help her, but she'll only get that help if she proves that she is accepting responsibility, and that she's going to do something to improve the situation.

It's also possible that she does just want someone to listen to her. Really listen, and not offer suggestions or advice. Just let her talk. Don't tell her she's wrong. Don't tell her she's right. Her friends are probably as self-centred as she is, so they wouldn't be any good for her, at least as far as accepting responsibility goes. How do your parents talk to her? Do they show their exasperation when she gets demanding? Despite their love do they show that her attitude is getting to them too? No doubt she perceives that as them not loving her.

Could you and your parents figure out something that she really wants, and figure out a way for them to give it to her in a way that makes it clear that they have been listening, and do truly care, but without making a big deal out of it? I.e., show her that she's wrong about them not caring about her, but in a way that doesn't give her reason to believe being demanding will get her what she wants...

Good luck Holden!

[cela]

Speaking as a former angsty teenage girl , no amount of reasoning with me would have done any good. Even if I knew what you were saying was true or useful, I would have gone against it, just because I could. *insert sulky, moody face here*

But, I would have loved to have a cool older brother who was just 'there' for me, but in no way trying to assert any kind of authority.

Don't join in the drama or the pity-parties, but let her know if there's anything you can do, and like Mark said, maybe look for signals about what she wants, and then surprise her with something nice, to show you have been paying attention, and that perhaps everyone in the whole entire world is not so horrible!

Man, I would have been so happy if, for instance, a relative remembered some obscure band that I was into, and then bought a CD for me!

Also, as George says, make sure you are looking after your own energy (via meditation, or whatever helps you), and perhaps use this as an exercise in your own personal development!

I know this is a long-shot, but as you have been discussing the nature of SR and awareness in another thread, perhaps ponder the thought that your sister (and everyone else) is just a projection of your consciousness. What lessons do you need to learn? Are you using Intention-Manifestation? Perhaps you could intend blissful happiness for your sister, and in turn, for yourself!

Lots of love,
Claire

P.S. WWSD? (what would Splinter do? - had to put a TMNT reference in there for ya! )

[Holden McNeil]

Originally Posted by cela

P.S. WWSD? (what would Splinter do? - had to put a TMNT reference in there for ya! )

LOL. Oh, that's classic... I actually did laugh out loud too, btw (who was the one talking bout that? Mark?)

Thank you all for the responses. Looks like the advice is pushing toward one general direction: take care of myself, but be more loving, friendly, and simply "there" for her, without being pushy. Or the SR thing. I'd love to interpret this as something in SR, but I don't feel 100% with that whole way of thinking just yet (kinda mixed feelings now). But it's worth a shot, hehe.

SR: I'd be arguing with myself, and whatever the root cause of it was, deep down, would be something within me that I mustn't completely okay with. That seems true, to an extent. The reason (I think) this all goes on is because she's got self-esteem issues, and uses excuses and blame to shift responsibility, to avoid any ego damage. I tend to think that she wants to play the victim card to give a good enough reason (to herself and other people) that, just in case she doesn't do as well as she'd like, then at least she's got something to put it on rather than saying "oh, *I* got it wrong (so *I* must suck)." Maybe I'm overanalysing there. But I'd have to admit I'm kinda the same, in the way that I'm overly afraid of screwing up (for what it would validate to myself). Although I don't go avoiding responsibility, I usually blame myself too much. But maybe there's a reason I do that, too. (Thought we were talking about my sis here, lol).

That seems a little too simple though. I fix up my little issues, and her problems will go away? It can't be as simple as that Steve/Erin example where he just sorted out his tidiness issues, and Erin started becoming more tidy seemingly automatically. (Or is it? )

Will keep you all updated!

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Holden McNeil

LOL. Oh, that's classic... I actually did laugh out loud too, btw (who was the one talking bout that? Mark?)

Yeah, that was me. But don't worry, I LOLed at you LOLing so it's ok

[Dan.Linehan]

Hmmm..

I'd probably just mock her incessantly every time she played the victim card. I'd use a really high-pitched, whiney, annoying voice when I did it too.

[yossarian]

Instead of thinking of her as a problem to be solved you could try just accepting her as she is and learning to tolerate that.

When it comes to other people I think the ultimate choice is between acceptance and forcible change. She isn't going to change unless she wants to change, or unless you somehow force her. But I doubt you want to force her.

Which means the only options left are acceptance or avoidance. But avoidance is always temporary..

Which leaves acceptance :P

I know from first hand experience that that isn't easy but I'm fairly convinced that it's the right approach. You choose the effect people have on you, so choose to not let her behavior bother you, and choose to accept her as she is. Easier said than done, but the attempt is what counts.

[RT Wolf]

Imagine for a moment that her behaviour and attitude is a reaction of something. Perhaps one of your parents act that way and she's picked that up? Or perhaps her friends do. Or perhaps your own behaviour is somehow causing this. Maybe when you were both younger something happened. Try to step into her shoes and look at hte world from her point of view. Seek first to understand then to be understood. Perhaps she is striving to be equal with you in the family because she doesn't feel she is? What can you and perhaps your parents do to make her feel that way? Perhaps you could tell her that she is as equal as you (or other siblings, if you have them). Looking back on it, my parents always made the point of saying that we are all equal and they love us equally, however we are each unique and have our own strengths and weaknesses.

You might consider having a serious conversation with her about your relationship and her behaviour. It'd help to have some good communication books to help you (like Difficult Conversations or Messages).

Another thing that I wholeheartedly recommend is listening and just being there without judging, as well as doing something nice for her.

Yet another thing that you might consider is get her a copy of one of your favourite PD books. Or 7 Habits of Highly Effective Teens (the teen version is written by the son). I just got a copy for my sister and she loves it. I'm planning to get another one for my brother.

Hope something here helps.

[Holden McNeil]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Instead of thinking of her as a problem to be solved you could try just accepting her as she is and learning to tolerate that.

I've been tolerating it for a long, long time now... since I was about 4 years old (when she was born)

I'm here simply because accepting/tolerating/ignoring it in the past, hasn't really helped out. She's still the same, and that bothers me. Being a now upgraded version (the angsty teen model v2.0) I'm finding that the negative vibes and what you guys would relate to as "low consciousness" is really sucking me down. I used to think it was her life, she's learning, live and let live, but now she's stepping on my personal growth because I can't avoid it. I can accept all I want, but trust me, in a few days from now the full moon will come out (so to speak ) and she'll be downstairs at the dinner table with something to complain about, whether it's me, or my parents, or school, etc.

Anyway. I'm still holding onto the belief that it's something I can fix. I still honestly believe that it's something I can work out (well, I want to believe, put it that way ), and adjust my actions toward. I don't wana sit back and just watch it continue on and on, while I'm getting sucked down.

So yeah, I can either avoid her completely, accept (which I'd have to say, I've already been doing up until now), or hopefully try and work out why it's all going on, and align myself to the solution. Maybe the solution ends up being "there's nothing you can really do", but at least that's somethin.

[Dharma]

Your sister is showing you many things about you. One of which is your victim, which is very evident here:

Originally Posted by Holden McNeil

I used to think it was her life, she's learning, live and let live, but now she's stepping on my personal growth because I can't avoid it.

Yes, work on yourself and your experience will change. There is no way it cannot if you really do make changes.

[Holden McNeil]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Your sister is showing you many things about you. One of which is your victim, which is very evident here:

Yes, work on yourself and your experience will change. There is no way it cannot if you really do make changes.

Your post really hit me, Dharma. However, the more I think about it, the more I feel like it's outside of my current level of thinking. For instance, I understand what you're saying. But the causes and solution of/to my being a victim, I'm unsure of. It'd take some time, I guess. Ta.

[Holden McNeil]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

Hope something here helps.

Your post totally eluded me until now (must have missed it while replying to yossarian's one). Like you're saying, I'm slowly starting to step into her perspective and see where she's coming from (instead of just ignoring her, of worse, arguing back/punishing). But then again, I'm starting to think that maybe the stuff I see in her, is a mirror of stuff within myself. I'll get it eventually.

[pinkhighlighter]

I think this could definitely be her being a normal teenager, but I have a lot of experience with this from an older person (my mother). For as long as I have known her she's played the victim card. For the last 7 years I have tried to just be optimistic with her and hope that it rubs off. It never did. In fact, sometimes it got so bad that if she did not like something we say she tells us that we've been brainwashed by our father to turn against her. She convinces herself that we are all talking about her behind her back, when in fact, no one does. About a week ago I was tired of being insulted if I didn't go along with what she said, I had to cut off ties with her. Not completely, she can still e-mail me if something comes up, but we are nolonger speaking. She refuses to give up being the victim and we are tired of being insulted and lied about. It's sad, but it's all we can do. We wish her well and hope she gets help (she may be bipolar, an older brother told me she diagnosed with it many years ago). Funnily enough, my mother had diagnosed everyone else in her family and life in general with a mental illness.
As for your situation with your sister, she is young and it could be angst, so be a good role model for hr. If it really does get you down, then cut back on the time you spend with her.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Holden McNeil

I've been tolerating it for a long, long time now... since I was about 4 years old (when she was born)

I'm here simply because accepting/tolerating/ignoring it in the past, hasn't really helped out. She's still the same, and that bothers me.

IMO that isn't acceptance. That's tolerance.

Ignoring a problem or tolerating a problem implies there is a problem that you simply take no action to correct.

Acceptance, however, implies that there is no problem.

You accept them as they are and remove any outcome dependence you may have. You forgo the right to claim any outcome or manifest any outcome and just let things be.

If you truly accepted her you would find no problem with her behavior. Her strengths and faults would both contribute to the unique personality that makes her who she is.

[Holden McNeil]

Originally Posted by yossarian

IMO that isn't acceptance. That's tolerance.

Ignoring a problem or tolerating a problem implies there is a problem that you simply take no action to correct.

Acceptance, however, implies that there is no problem.

You accept them as they are and remove any outcome dependence you may have. You forgo the right to claim any outcome or manifest any outcome and just let things be.

You're right. I missed that. I had interpreted it all as simply tolerating.

Originally Posted by yossarian

If you truly accepted her you would find no problem with her behavior. Her strengths and faults would both contribute to the unique personality that makes her who she is.

True. That's a really nice way of looking at it, too. Because it is who she is. And from looking at it this way, I don't hold any grudge. I just love her anyway. It bothering me, kinda fades. I almost forgive her. She's simply acting to what she feels is right. In her perception, she's doing the right thing, and I can't ask any more than that. (Very slowly making sense )

If an argument bothers me, it's all about me. The other night she bothered me, simply because she was pointing out a lot of negatives about me to get the upper hand in an argument. I felt hurt when she did this, because she was being so immature about it, and using my flaws as weapons against me. But that's just who she is, she's doing what she thinks is right. If it bothers me, I have to ask myself why that particular thing bothered me. When I think about that, it's because I'm ashamed of the flaws that she mentioned. It wasn't about her at all, really. I just pinned it on her, as a conduit to my feeling ashamed. Having someone validate them to me, as a weakness within me... I didn't like that at all.

In how I'm analysing that, does that sound right?

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Holden McNeil

In how I'm analysing that, does that sound right?

I think you get what I mean when I say acceptance, yeah. And I think trying out that type of mindset is worthwhile. But that's just me

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Holden McNeil

If an argument bothers me, it's all about me. The other night she bothered me, simply because she was pointing out a lot of negatives about me to get the upper hand in an argument. I felt hurt when she did this, because she was being so immature about it, and using my flaws as weapons against me. But that's just who she is, she's doing what she thinks is right. If it bothers me, I have to ask myself why that particular thing bothered me. When I think about that, it's because I'm ashamed of the flaws that she mentioned. It wasn't about her at all, really. I just pinned it on her, as a conduit to my feeling ashamed. Having someone validate them to me, as a weakness within me... I didn't like that at all.

In how I'm analysing that, does that sound right?

That does sound right.

This is an example of how healing yourself can heal others, where cause and effect are evident. If she attacks you and you show shame, you validate her reactions when others do the same to her, and validate her own feelings of worthlessness. You also validate her belief that she can influence others with her attacks, and thus the attacks she perceives others making on her are also validated.

So it is all about you, from your perspective, and it's also all about her, from her perspective. And both perspectives are valid, though unhelpful.

It's a cycle that will continue to feed itself until someone becomes aware enough of what's going on to be able to stop it. That's where acceptance comes in. If you accept yourself completely, then nothing she says can affect you. She'll eventually see that there's no point in attacking you.

And if you accept her completely she'll stop feeling like you're trying to change her (which implies that there's something wrong, which she already believes to be the case). And perhaps then she'll be able to see and enjoy the benefits of your relationship, and similar positive relationships with others.

[RT Wolf]

In the argument, was she attacking you rather than making a rational case? You could name the dynamic next time, which means to say that she is attacking you instead of actually putting forth an argument. Let her know that it is a very dirty way to argue, or that it is damaging your relationship with her. It's also a logical fallacy. A lot of people will stop doing something once oyu name the dynamic.

Keep in mind that the advice I offer does not exclude the wonderful idea of acceptance. Acceptance doesn't mean that you condone it, nor does it mean that you still do not want to change it, acceptance just takes away your ego's investment in a particular situation. You can work on this in many ways, including working on yourself and working on your relationship with her.

[Holden McNeil]