Rape and opinions about rape

[elucidate]

Moved from Thread: Benefits of being Male/Female

Originally Posted by FazK

The biggest benefit of being a male is that you have to strength to defend yourself from people, most females cant do that, also the fact that there is very little chance that some body's gonna try rape you because of how you dressed or whatever.

There are two things I see in this statement that are myths.

The first is that men don't get raped! There are many cases of male rape in society, it just isn't talked about very often. I lived with a man who was a spokesperson for raising awareness about male rape in society...and I've met a man who was gang raped (and no, it wasn't in jail)

The second one here that is a myth, is that women get raped because of the way they dress. It very rarely has anything to do with it...it's more about the woman being alone and vulnerable and the predator having a sense of powerlessness, and basically being very weak so they need to dominate the woman and take power!

It can happen to any woman regardless of how they are dressed. It's happened to lots of grannies, and I'm sure they weren't "asking for it" by wearing mini-skirts and too much make-up

[James81]

Originally Posted by elucidate

The second one here that is a myth, is that women get raped because of the way they dress. It very rarely has anything to do with it...it's more about the woman being alone and vulnerable and the predator having a sense of powerlessness, and basically being very weak so they need to dominate the woman and take power!

It can happen to any woman regardless of how they are dressed. It's happened to lots of grannies, and I'm sure they weren't "asking for it" by wearing mini-skirts and too much make-up

I've heard this type of thing from women many times (even gotten the ole links to sources that say this).

I don't believe it though. And I've had women get militant for saying that I don't believe it (even had one accuse me of being a rapist LOL!). For some reason, this is something that women just don't seem to want to believe for some reason. I know that a rape is about MORE than *just* sex (it's about power and domination), but I can tell you that those rapists are men, and men are stimulated by sight. No, it may not be the ONLY reason he attacks a woman, but it may be the reason a woman catches his eye.

Just because grannies are raped, does not totally disregard the element of dress.

That's NOT NOT NOT (want to really emphasize this part, so listen up) to say that a woman who dresses a certain way is "asking for it." It's NEVER EVER a woman's fault that she gets raped, no matter if she's walking naked down the street.

I'm just saying that men are visually stimulated. And that does not somehow "break" for a guy who is a rapist. That's absurd to assert otherwise.

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

I've heard this type of thing from women many times (even gotten the ole links to sources that say this).

I don't believe it though. And I've had women get militant for saying that I don't believe it (even had one accuse me of being a rapist LOL!). For some reason, this is something that women just don't seem to want to believe for some reason. I know that a rape is about MORE than *just* sex (it's about power and domination), but I can tell you that those rapists are men, and men are stimulated by sight. No, it may not be the ONLY reason he attacks a woman, but it may be the reason a woman catches his eye.

Just because grannies are raped, does not totally disregard the element of dress.

That's NOT NOT NOT (want to really emphasize this part, so listen up) to say that a woman who dresses a certain way is "asking for it." It's NEVER EVER a woman's fault that she gets raped, no matter if she's walking naked down the street.

I'm just saying that men are visually stimulated. And that does not somehow "break" for a guy who is a rapist. That's absurd to assert otherwise.

No. Date rape arguably *might* involve what you said here, but the stereotypical rape isn't about sex at all. It is only about power and control. Tons of women who end up raped were not wearing anything revealing, and actually looked quite frumpy at the time. What you said *might* apply to date rape in some cases but it doesn't apply to rape by a stranger.

ETA: the stranger who takes this action isn't sexually stimulated by the sight of woman parts. He is stimulated by the idea of overpowering that person. It has less to do with how she looks or her bra/butt size (or how she has packaged the goods) and more to do with wanting to feel powerful.

James, I will confess your views and beliefs on this subject make me choose to feel nervous. I find it slightly-to-moderately creepy. I would be uncomfortable dating someone if I knew they saw these things this way, because I would have some trouble trusting that my sexual pace and preferences and desire to look nice without assumptions about it would not be naturally, authentically and intrinsically respected.

The absolute last thing I would recommend in this situation is trying to hide this viewpoint. I don't mean I recommend bringing it up, but I certainly think trying to hide it would simply intensify the creepiness. Plus, women can be very good at noticing when someone is hiding something.

I do think your recent efforts around personal power may end up spilling over to your stance on this topic in a beneficial way. In the meantime, I find it creepy. I am not saying this with any intention to harm or trigger. I'm just being honest about it. These apparent beliefs point to an attitude I find *highly* incompatible.

[James81]

Originally Posted by rei

James, I will confess your views and beliefs on this subject make me choose to feel nervous. I find it slightly-to-moderately creepy.

This is the common response I hear in terms of my views on this.

I remember when trying to reply to your original response to this post, I asked myself what benefit it really holds to actually carry this viewpoint or to share it, and I couldn't think of any.

That is, the only real reason to assert this would be to say "well, one way to protect yourself is to dress more moderately." And, well, that isn't really congruent to other beliefs I have. That is, I don't think women (or men) *should* dress a certain way. I thought of other societies in more third-word countries where the women walk around without tops on, and I found myself questioning that belief.

I'm thinking my beliefs surrounding this stem from my current realization in another thread that "I am not safe" (gremlin stuff that is).

Still haven't found a positively stated way of saying that, though.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by James81

That is, the only real reason to assert this would be to say "well, one way to protect yourself is to dress more moderately." And, well, that isn't really congruent to other beliefs I have. That is, I don't think women (or men) *should* dress a certain way. I thought of other societies in more third-word countries where the women walk around without tops on, and I found myself questioning that belief.

It seems to me, and I don't have data to back this up right now, but most rapes happen in societies where sex is somehow hidden or repressed. Muslim women in full hijab are just as likely to be raped as any woman in regular western clothing. It's just because she's female and viewed as vulnerable in a society where men make the rules.

Take a society where women are held in high regard and can wear nothing at all in public, and that changes, so far as I know. When you know that the women of your tribe or village will string you up and do damage to your manly bits, you're more likely to think twice about taking without asking.

In the west, it's most often men (lawyers) who prosecute men (perpetrators). Most of our judges are men, too. Not to mention the cops... When the highest social authority is a woman, there's gonna be hell to pay for harming another woman.

[LostMyMap]

I don't know if it's a benefit, but I think there are some topics that women discuss that men should generally just stay out of, unless they are an educated expert. You just dig yourself in a hole for no good reason.

1. Breastfeeding
2. The relationship between a mother and daughter (adult)
3. Sexual assault/rape.

And yes I said "should". Deal with it.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by James81

but I can tell you that those rapists are men, and men are stimulated by sight. No, it may not be the ONLY reason he attacks a woman, but it may be the reason a woman catches his eye.

.......

I'm just saying that men are visually stimulated. And that does not somehow "break" for a guy who is a rapist. That's absurd to assert otherwise.

I agree and disagree with you here at the same time Yes, most rapist are men. Yes most men get turned on visually.
No, most rapist don't get turned on by a short dress or low shirt.

The reason why a rapist is a rapist is because he gets turned on by "involuntary power over" so he will feel attracted visually to girls and women he sees as "victim". And then it won't matter if they are wearing a skirt or jeans.

Just like non-rapist men are attracted to different things visually (some like skirts, some like jeans, some like jogging pants), so are rapists... it just usually isn't clothes, but more attitude and way of carrying yourself.

Originally Posted by rei

James, I will confess your views and beliefs on this subject make me choose to feel nervous. I find it slightly-to-moderately creepy.

I don't get it... why does this make him seem creepy?

He says clearly enough that it never is the woman's fault, he just thinks that rapists because they are men are more attracted to women who wear less...??

Could you explain the creepiness here?

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

This is the common response I hear in terms of my views on this.


Still haven't found a positively stated way of saying that, though.

Isnt "I am scared" or "I am unsafe" a positive phrasing?

I wonder if the benefit you hold for this belief relates to personal responsibility and personal power in relationships with women.

Sandra, I agree with moving this convo. Would you put the @Curtis part of my previous post back in his thread? I am not at a real computer or I would do it myself.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I don't get it... why does this make him seem creepy?

He says clearly enough that it never is the woman's fault, he just thinks that rapists because they are men are more attracted to women who wear less...??

Could you explain the creepiness here?

The one common denominator in all the women who've said this to me has always been some sort of abuse or mistreatment (on a very deep level that is) of some sort.

One woman who said that my views made her feel creepy (actually she said, "You're a ****ing creep, James.") was a lesbian with real issues with men and people mistreating/judging her for it (for being a "dyke" was her words). The most common thread has always been women who've been molested at some point in their lives. The other common one is women who've been abused in some fashion.

That is, I DO recognize that label of "creep" tends to come from particularly jaded women in some fashion. (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards rei, just stating my observations.) But I also see that it's a rather common response to some of my views, so I see that there is something for me to learn here too.

[Lucidism]

I certainly don't know for sure and don't really hold an opinion, but it does make logical sense to me that a woman who is dressed skimpy (like a mini-skirt, lots of cleavage, etc.) would be a bigger target for harassment (in general, including rape) and attention than someone who is dressed more conservatively.

With that said, I do hold the view that rape is always the rapist's fault - not the victim, and that it has very little to do with sex, and that the victim was likely just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course, I say this as I believe in an objective reality. In a subjective reality, the rape is the victim's fault, since they *created* it for themselves.

When speaking of practical safety, it's always best to not travel alone, especially if you're in a city, especially if it's dark outside. I think this applies to both men and women equally.

[rei]

Sandra, it is not that one post but that one as well as others he has shared on the topic of rape. Like when he was speaking about how he stops paying attention to whether the woman is enjoying it or not.

My sense of creepiness may not be something I can explain using logic. All of it together makes my intuitive side say take care. It all sounds like the attitude a guy would have if he crossed a sexual boundary and then blamed it on the woman. Like, I see room for that to occur within that belief system/perspective. It is about concern for whether a boundary will be accepted and respected or whether such a person would do the come on, baby, you know you want to thing. Or bring up blue balls as a guilt trip. Not be authentically okay wih a no or not really accept body language resistance and instead just say it is her job to verbalized no, stop, even if her entire body tenses up and unless she does I am gonna keep going for what I want.

It also sounds like the attitude of a guy who would be indirect about sexual wants, potentially assume about signals, but then not really choose to be accountable if the woman was uncomfortable with that.

[curiouslyrandom]

What I'm seeing here is a disconnect on how men and women view rape. For a guy, it's the sense that it will never happen to him. For a woman, it's the sense that it probably will happen every time we go somewhere alone, especially at night.

I had plans to go to a dance club in a seedy part of San Francisco one night long ago, and my parents begged me to get a date because as they said "you could be mugged, raped, murdered and have your body dumped in the Bay and we'd never know." Their paranoia freaked me out, but I went anyway and had a great time. They never would have said any of those things to my brother, and he got into a LOT of trouble when he was young.

Men take it for granted that they will be safe. Women do not. We are socially conditioned from an early age to see ourselves as vulnerable and in need of protection.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by rei

Sandra, it is not that one post but that one as well as others he has shared on the topic of rape. Like when he was speaking about how he stops paying attention to whether the woman is enjoying it or not.

My sense of creepiness may not be something I can explain using logic. All of it together makes my intuitive side say take care. It all sounds like the attitude a guy would have if he crossed a sexual boundary and then blamed it on the woman. Like, I see room for that to occur within that belief system/perspective. It is about concern for whether a boundary will be accepted and respected or whether such a person would do the come on, baby, you know you want to thing. Or bring up blue balls as a guilt trip. Not be authentically okay wih a no or not really accept body language resistance and instead just say it is her job to verbalized no, stop, even if her entire body tenses up and unless she does I am gonna keep going for what I want.

It also sounds like the attitude of a guy who would be indirect about sexual wants, potentially assume about signals, but then not really choose to be accountable if the woman was uncomfortable with that.

Oh boy. Those are a lot of assumptions that you are making based on one comment....

I'm wondering, is this something you felt about James already, and just came to the surface with this comment, or was it really just this comment?

Because I also remember him saying VERY clearly that it is NEVER the women's fault nor responsibility. That the only thing they potentially could do is dress more modest for prevention. That for me is saying the same thing as don't go out alone in a dark part at night... You might get raped.

Doesn't mean it is your fault, but it does mean that there are things you could do to make the chance of getting raped smaller.

[rei]

As far as I know I don't fit the abuse past you're talking about. It was more emotional and from a female. It is more that I value respect and boundaries and I see room for less authentic honoring of those with that perspective.

[rei]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Oh boy. Those are a lot of assumptions that you are making based on one comment....

I'm wondering, is this something you felt about James already, and just came to the surface with this comment, or was it really just this comment?

Because I also remember him saying VERY clearly that it is NEVER the women's fault nor responsibility. That the only thing they potentially could do is dress more modest for prevention. That for me is saying the same thing as don't go out alone in a dark part at night... You might get raped.

Doesn't mean it is your fault, but it does mean that there are things you could do to make the chance of getting raped smaller.

I have seen ehis type of attitude associated with that pattern before. I am not saying I think he acts that way, only that it is often part of the territory.

I might be inrepressing a memory right now, though, so my assessment may not be clear.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

I don't know if it's a benefit, but I think there are some topics that women discuss that men should generally just stay out of, unless they are an educated expert.

Probably, since it's a touchy subject. But even if men aren't raped alot, views on it can affect men through legislature (false allegations for example). If there is a cultural attitude (hypothetical) that implies that if a woman has sex with a man and enjoys it, but sometime in retrospect regrets it, then all people view that as "rape", then it is kind of a shame for the man that she sleeps with, since 'becoming a rapist" for that (in peoples eyes) is kindof unfair. It's like if women in a culture are seen as a tease for wearing revealing clothing if they aren't 'easy to get with' also. It might be unfair to them to be seen as less of a person for that. (not a good analogy but it was all I could think about)


I might have said too much already...

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by rei

I have seen ehis type of attitude associated with that pattern before. I am not saying I think he acts that way, only that it is often part of the territory.

So you're stereotyping?

[Lucidism]

Is it a general belief of this forum that any negative-sounding belief is the result of some hidden "gremlin", some unresolved issue from childhood? Seems that I see quite a few members mention this. Sigmund Freud has a great amount of influence here!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

Is it a general belief of this forum that any negative-sounding belief is the result of some hidden "gremlin", some unresolved issue from childhood?

My thoughts are that most of our beliefs are formed in childhood (whether they are positive or negative). And I think that the way to change them is to examine them, to pull them into the conscious mind and check them.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by James81

(even had one accuse me of being a rapist LOL!). For some reason, this is something that women just don't seem to want to believe for some reason. I know that a rape is about MORE than *just* sex (it's about power and domination), but I can tell you that those rapists are men, and men are stimulated by sight. No, it may not be the ONLY reason he attacks a woman, but it may be the reason a woman catches his eye.

Let me clarify a few things here. The reason you make women nervous with this idea is because you are choosing to speak authoritatively about what motivates rapists. There's only a few reasons to do this and all but one of them would creep a woman out. You might a) have raped a woman yourself; b) are sexually frustrated to the point of wanting to rape a woman, but are holding yourself back somehow; c) have gone to school or otherwise studied rape in an intellectually rigorous fashion. You make no claim to c) leaving women to guess at whether you mean a) or b). The woman who called you a rapist probably guessed you couldn't be frustrated. Women can be weird like that.

The correct way to approach this discussion is to talk about your feelings and frustrations in an authentic fashion, rather than in an authoritative one, which is where rei was coming from when she said she didn't want you to hide your feelings or censor yourself.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Let me clarify a few things here. The reason you make women nervous with this idea is because you are choosing to speak authoritatively about what motivates rapists. There's only a few reasons to do this and all but one of them would creep a woman out. You might a) have raped a woman yourself; b) are sexually frustrated to the point of wanting to rape a woman, but are holding yourself back somehow; c) have gone to school or otherwise studied rape in an intellectually rigorous fashion. You make no claim to c) leaving women to guess at whether you mean a) or b). The woman who called you a rapist probably guessed you couldn't be frustrated. Women can be weird like that.

The correct way to approach this discussion is to talk about your feelings and frustrations in an authentic fashion, rather than in an authoritative one, which is where rei was coming from when she said she didn't want you to hide your feelings or censor yourself.

Another alternative is to talk authoritatively about people that talk authoritatively about rape and how people interpret them, like Vince.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

Is it a general belief of this forum that any negative-sounding belief is the result of some hidden "gremlin", some unresolved issue from childhood? Seems that I see quite a few members mention this. Angela has a great amount of influence here!

Yes I think so too.

[James81]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Let me clarify a few things here. The reason you make women nervous with this idea is because you are choosing to speak authoritatively about what motivates rapists. There's only a few reasons to do this and all but one of them would creep a woman out. You might a) have raped a woman yourself; b) are sexually frustrated to the point of wanting to rape a woman, but are holding yourself back somehow; c) have gone to school or otherwise studied rape in an intellectually rigorous fashion. You make no claim to c) leaving women to guess at whether you mean a) or b). The woman who called you a rapist probably guessed you couldn't be frustrated. Women can be weird like that.

The correct way to approach this discussion is to talk about your feelings and frustrations in an authentic fashion, rather than in an authoritative one, which is where rei was coming from when she said she didn't want you to hide your feelings or censor yourself.

I think there is a "d" point....

That is, I speak authoritively about it because I am a man. But I see the limitation in that...that is, I'm trying to speak for all men, whether they be emotionally healthy or not. Or, rather, I assume that even a man who rapes someone still thinks like all men.

Which is what I said in my original point: that men are sexually stimulated by sight and that that is probably a factor in who a man would choose in a sexual situation (whether its consentual or not).

I can see where that is me thinking from a limiting, generalizing mindset. And I can see why it's reinforced as authoritative because the one thing I have noticed is that I've never had a MAN tell me that I'm a creep for these views.

[Lucidism]

Originally Posted by James81

My thoughts are that most of our beliefs are formed in childhood (whether they are positive or negative). And I think that the way to change them is to examine them, to pull them into the conscious mind and check them.

I think this is true for many beliefs, though I also think many beliefs are formed during adulthood, or because of some significant event (no matter when it occurred), or because of a multiple of small events.

I guess this is a moot point though, because regardless of where a thought comes from, if it doesn't help us then it can be good to examine and change it.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

I think this is true for many beliefs, though I also think many beliefs are formed during adulthood, or because of some significant event (no matter when it occurred), or because of a multiple of small events.

Yeah, I think there are lots of beliefs formed in adulthood, but I think the foundation of those beliefs are all rooted in core paradigms we create about the world in childhood. (And no, I don't think that's JUST limited to gremlin type stuff...I think it could be gremlins, positive beliefs, values, beliefs about the world and not ourselves, ideas, etc.)

[rei]

Originally Posted by Elrond

So you're stereotyping?

No. Maybe? So what if I am. That lind of heat area behavior happens too much do it would be nice if something were done, and to me it is better to stereotype than to ignore my intuition about a person or a pattern. I end up with higher quality and more trustworthy intimate encounters because I feel that way.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by James81

I think there is a "d" point....

That is, I speak authoritively about it because I am a man. But I see the limitation in that...that is, I'm trying to speak for all men, whether they be emotionally healthy or not. Or, rather, I assume that even a man who rapes someone still thinks like all men.

Which is what I said in my original point: that men are sexually stimulated by sight and that that is probably a factor in who a man would choose in a sexual situation (whether its consentual or not).

I can see where that is me thinking from a limiting, generalizing mindset. And I can see why it's reinforced as authoritative because the one thing I have noticed is that I've never had a MAN tell me that I'm a creep for these views.

If your only reference point and knowledge is about yourself as a man and men in general, and not much about the psychology of rapists, then I would guess that you don't have enough to stand on to make 'authorative (i.e. "you're theory is wrong, let me tell you how it is") statements about it.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Elrond

Another alternative is to talk authoritatively about people that talk authoritatively about rape and how people interpret them, like Vince.

Or I could speak authentically about my life long love affair with authoritative voicing.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Elrond

If your only reference point and knowledge is about yourself as a man and men in general, and not much about the psychology of rapists, then I would guess that you don't have enough to stand on to make 'authorative (i.e. "you're theory is wrong, let me tell you how it is") statements about it.

Speaking "authoritively" is another common "criticism" I get.

And I've looked at that before and, for the most part, I've discovered that that label holds truth about the way I communicate (and I examine that frequently actually).

I do struggle to see *why* people think I speak authoritatively because, well, my beliefs change with the wind. What I assert today, gets shifted tomorrow. I've never claimed to be a guru or anything like that, but I"ve had people say all sorts of things to that effect.

I think it's because I examine my opnions in great depth, and I look at things from many different angles and viewpoints, such that, by the time I *do* form an opinion, I'm pretty comfortable with it. I don't think my opinion is "the truth" by any means, but I'm pretty comfortable with my beliefs and opinions. And I don't usually take great pains to soften that or water it down because I expect people to take responsibility for the way they perceive me in the same way that I take responsibility for the way I am perceived. (That is, the door to communication goes both ways...I hold a part in being understood, but others hold a part in the way they perceive me.) My general thoughts are that if people don't agree with what I have to say, they really don't have to access it or regard it as truth. The ones that reply are usually the ones who aren't comfortable with *something* pertaining to what I've said.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by Elrond

Probably, since it's a touchy subject. But even if men aren't raped alot, views on it can affect men through legislature (false allegations for example). If there is a cultural attitude (hypothetical) that implies that if a woman has sex with a man and enjoys it, but sometime in retrospect regrets it, then all people view that as "rape", then it is kind of a shame for the man that she sleeps with, since 'becoming a rapist" for that (in peoples eyes) is kindof unfair. It's like if women in a culture are seen as a tease for wearing revealing clothing if they aren't 'easy to get with' also. It might be unfair to them to be seen as less of a person for that. (not a good analogy but it was all I could think about)


I might have said too much already...

Over-analysis of what I was saying. Of course men are in society and have an input. I just see men getting into casual conversations about touchy subjects and going way beyond what they know. Drawing unneccesary fire towards themselves. It would be like me, a white guy, trying to pontificate on what it's like to be a black man in this country. Or any of you criticizing a military man (or cop) for how he acted while someone was shooting at him. You can read and learn, but if you haven't been there...


It's like, better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.