Guilt about sex - guys judging girls so unfairly

[Gordo]

yo,

I was talking to some of my girlfriends earlier and they said something which really made me start thinking

They said that guys judge them really harshly. Label them as 'sl*ts', 'easy' or a whole list of derogatory terms. They said that this whole 'im a good girl, and i dont like sex' act is primarily because guys judge them so harshly on it. - its for us!
- im like, omg really? kinda looked at me sif i was an idiot lol

society has socially conditioned girls to have so much guilt bout sex, and guys are continually adding layers on top of that!

How true is that,

girls this is your turn

[MidasGirl]

Well, what is the best way to keep a person in line? Call them (societally conditioned) negative labels. If your girlfriends want to liberate themselves, they'll do so when they realize that they and only they own their vagina. What they do with it is nobody's business!

[Elrond]

Girls call other girls sluts too.

[BillyTheAdult]

This whole idea reeks of girls being poor little victims of some kind. I only feel bad because guys make me feel bad. Girls judge guys in this way too.

[aelle]

Yes, there is such a thing as slut shaming, and its negative consequenses are not limited to the girls' victimized feelings, unlike what Billy was insinuating. Do you know, for instance, that in many places in the world (including western countries) if a man rapes a woman, the woman undergoes a "morality investigation" whereby the police gets to decide if she behaved slutty enough to "deserve" it? Calling girls sluts is the difference between male criminals being put behind bars or roaming freely.

I act on my own terms. But I had to realize a long time ago that in our world and for someone of my gender, it means accepting the risk of being insulted, assaulted and raped. I am not okay with how high this risk is, but I am even less okay with living my life in fear.

[BillyTheAdult]

to say "as billy was insinuating" is actually the exact kind of thing I'm talking about. As if I have done something to you. I am not actually refuting that this kind of thing does happen, injustice happens all over the world, all the time, in all kinds of ways, to all broken down segments of society. black people have been mistreated, white people have been mistreated, women have been mistreated, men have been mistreated, jews, christians, muslims, buddhists all have unjustly persecuted. If a someone, including a girl, about her sexuality, feels guilt about about something, it is not because someone else made them feel it. It is because they felt it on their own. Just the same way that if someone insults me I can not care, or I can care, that is up to me. So to say "Guys are continually adding layers on top of that." is not even a truth, and that is where the victim mentality comes in. "Guys" are not "doing it" to girls, everyone is doing it to themselves all the time, in all kinds of facets, not just sexuality.

[180]

These labels were part of how society kept girls from being promiscuous before the time of contraceptives.

Keep in mind, condoms, the pill, and whatever else, hasn't been around for a long time. Less than 100 years. I do know in ancient times women would rub cinnamon powder but realistically they weren't "pure" forms of contraceptive.

So society created labels for women who slept around freely. This was to prevent unwanted pregnancy. To sleep around and not know who the father is would cause a plethora of problems for the family who would have to raise the baby.

Thus such terms were a reflection of the spite for such behavior. Got to go, I'll be back

[aelle]

@BillyTheAdult: Interesting that it's what you choose to see in my post. For what it's worth, there was honestly no animosity or resentment in my message, it was factual (you did say "I only feel bad because guys make me feel bad", which I took to mean that you believe girls believe they feel bad only because guys make them feel bad). What does your reaction say about you?

[BillyTheAdult]

Aelle: I don't understand, I never personalized it to you, but in your response you say that I said "I only feel bad because guys make me feel bad." This is a generalized statement, not directed actually to you. A quote of how pinning these feelings "somewhere else" sounds.

I am saying I believe girls believe they feel bad only because guys make them feel bad. The title of this thread says "guys judging girls so unfairly." You even went on to give evidence as justification for victimhood. (I know these things do happen.) So my point is the girl will only be bothered by this and feel guilt if she agrees with it to some degree, so the guy doesn't "make" her feel it.

I am ,once again, aware that these kinds of things, and a plethora of other injustices have been perpetrated upon women over the centuries. But to cast all responsibility for a feeling that a woman has internally, in her own mind, outward, is silly. No one can make you feel a certain way. If I say "feel butterflies in your stomach RIGHT NOW!" chances are you probably don't. I just don't have that kind of power, no one does. People only have a power over you if you give it to them.

This is more or less the definition of victimhood. The event you feel victimized by doesn't have to be untrue, in many cases it probably is true. So the part that I am responding to is the "guys judging girls" as if women are some kind of innocent victims of men. They are victims of their own thinking. Women have "made" me feel like crap countless times in my life, but the ultimate responsibility of how I let it affect me is on me.

[Weena]

Girls get called sluts for many more reasons. Who cares? If you sleep around you are one, if you wear a skirt you are one, if people are jealous of you, you are one. (Shrug). Live your life and don't listen.

I remember when i was 17 a guy asked me to have sex and when i said "sçuse me???" he said "who are you kidding, what with wearing a skirt and all?". I got quite upset. But a couple of weeks later he profusely apologised to me. I wondered why...turns out my date at the time beat him up in a public bathroom and told him he better apologise to me , that guy is unlikely to treat girls that way ever again, i think.

I also had a girlfriend who slept with LOTS of guys and she told me "i sleep around and i have the slut label, my best friend is still a virgin and she gets the slut label, so i might as well have fun as we are called sluts regardless of what behavours we adopt".

[aelle]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

Aelle: I don't understand, I never personalized it to you, but in your response you say that I said "I only feel bad because guys make me feel bad."

I am saying I believe girls believe they feel bad only because guys make them feel bad. The title of this thread says "guys judging girls so unfairly." So my point is the girl will only be bothered by this and feel guilt if she agrees with it to some degree. I saw the point made in another thread around here somewhere recently that if someone calls you a purple elephant, you would laugh because it so completely not true, it would never bother you. (I'm not saying they are sluts, even a feeling of guilt event can be enough to trigger a reaction.)

I am ,once again, aware that these kinds of things, and a plethora of other injustices have been perpetrated upon women over the centuries. But to cast all responsibility for a feeling that a woman has internally, in her own mind, outward, is silly. No one can make you feel a certain way. If I say "feel butterflies in your stomach RIGHT NOW!" chances are you probably don't. I just don't have that kind of power, no one does. People only have a power over you if you give it to them.

This is more or less the definition of victimhood. The event you feel victimized by doesn't have to be untrue, in many cases it probably is true. So the part that I am responding to is the "guys judging girls" as if women are some kind of innocent victims of men. They are victims of their own thinking. Women have "made" me feel like crap countless times in my life, but the ultimate responsibility of how I let it affect me is on me.

Then we understand each other. And I agree with your point - that no one has control over our feelings, ultimately. I was, however, making a second point, which is that negative feelings (which we can change or reclaim) are not the only possible consequence of slut shaming. There are other ones which we cannot control, which we can only choose to bear.

If someone calls you a purple elephant you can laugh, but if they say very seriously that you are a purple elephant and as such will be kicked out of the country because you belong in the savanna, or will be put in chains without trial because you are a dangerous beast, or will be killed because purple elephants shouldn't exist, then it's not so funny anymore.

[elucidate]

This is true. It doesn't matter what we do, we'll get called something for it...may as well have some fun and ignore the idiots

Originally Posted by Weena

Girls get called sluts for many more reasons. Who cares? If you sleep around you are one, if you wear a skirt you are one, if people are jealous of you, you are one. (Shrug). Live your life and don't listen.

I remember when i was 17 a guy asked me to have sex and when i said "sçuse me???" he said "who are you kidding, what with wearing a skirt and all?". I got quite upset. But a couple of weeks later he profusely apologised to me. I wondered why...turns out my date at the time beat him up in a public bathroom and told him he better apologise to me , that guy is unlikely to treat girls that way ever again, i think.

I also had a girlfriend who slept with LOTS of guys and she told me "i sleep around and i have the slut label, my best friend is still a virgin and she gets the slut label, so i might as well have fun as we are called sluts regardless of what behavours we adopt".

[BillyTheAdult]

That's funny, I edited my post but you quoted it before it took effect.

[aelle]

Ah. Mkay, didn't notice the edit before. Thanks for clarifying, although I had gotten it the first time I didn't take your statement for me. There's one more thing that I'd like to address there:

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

I am saying I believe girls believe they feel bad only because guys make them feel bad. The title of this thread says "guys judging girls so unfairly." You even went on to give evidence as justification for victimhood. (I know these things do happen.)

I was not giving justification for victimhood (although someone who has been the victim of a crime is perfectly entitled to feel like a victim - whether it's helpful is a different matter). I know first hand that one can go through assault (for example) and choose not to feel victimized, ashamed, afraid or hateful. We can keep/regain power over our feelings. But the assault itself is still out of our control, and no matter what, it is not a pleasant experience. Does it make sense?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by aelle

I know first hand that one can go through assault (for example) and choose not to feel victimized, ashamed, afraid or hateful. We can keep/regain power over our feelings. But the assault itself is still out of our control, and no matter what, it is not a pleasant experience. Does it make sense?

I know this is true. Which is why people who attend rape counselling can sometimes be worse off, since the counsellors are basically telling them it's ok to feel ashamed etc.

I'm not sure if the latter effects of assault, like PTSD are something the person has any choice over though?

[Zach M]

I prefer the term minx.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Zach Matley

I prefer the term minx.

I like that word too. Vixen is also acceptable

[SeaRod]

Focus on living your life, your way.

[Zach M]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I like that word too. Vixen is also acceptable

Is it just my imagination, or do the best vixens come from Australia?

[Cochonette]

There are guys here who spend so much time denying that females can be treated unfairly that one can only suppose that they feel that only males can be treated unfairly (by being accused of treating females unfairly). It's like I come across white people who have nothing to say about racism unless it's "reverse racism."

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Zach Matley

Is it just my imagination, or do the best vixens come from Australia?

Well, I might be bias, but...YES!

[elucidate]

I think it's like a defensive reaction. We talk about real life things that women are forced to deal with from men and other women...and so, instead of admitting that yes, alot of men are like this...they get all huffy and come back with the retort "well, men get badly treated too...Waaaaah!" As though we are completely ignorant of the challenges males face. Maybe they just like to be included?

Just because we aren't male doesn't mean we don't empathise with them...it cannot always be said that most men do the same for us though.

Originally Posted by Cochonette

There are guys here who spend so much time denying that females can be treated unfairly that one can only suppose that they feel that only males can be treated unfairly (by being accused of treating females unfairly). It's like I come across white people who have nothing to say about racism unless it's "reverse racism."

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Weena

Girls get called sluts for many more reasons. Who cares? If you sleep around you are one, if you wear a skirt you are one, if people are jealous of you, you are one. (Shrug). Live your life and don't listen.

I remember when i was 17 a guy asked me to have sex and when i said "sçuse me???" he said "who are you kidding, what with wearing a skirt and all?". I got quite upset. But a couple of weeks later he profusely apologised to me. I wondered why...turns out my date at the time beat him up in a public bathroom and told him he better apologise to me , that guy is unlikely to treat girls that way ever again, i think.

I also had a girlfriend who slept with LOTS of guys and she told me "i sleep around and i have the slut label, my best friend is still a virgin and she gets the slut label, so i might as well have fun as we are called sluts regardless of what behavours we adopt".

So how quickly did you bang the guy who beat the other guy up? That same night? Or the next day? Or just a hummer or something. I mean come on be honest.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

So how quickly did you bang the guy who beat the other guy up? That same night? Or the next day? Or just a hummer or something. I mean come on be honest.

Not sure to understand your question? I started dating the guy who sorted him out very shortly after that thing happened, and had told him the guy was a moron, maybe because he was hanging in the same place we were at so the story came out. That was like ten years ago. And I was with that man (the date mentioned) for two years. Thanks for asking me about the hummer, i just learned a new slang word of English thanks to you. I read your other topic about "what's missing around here is aggression" so i won't feel offended . you want me to be honest do you? I find you quite rude, and i bet you are still in your teen years to address a lady this way. that's my honest answer, young man.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I know this is true. Which is why people who attend rape counselling can sometimes be worse off, since the counsellors are basically telling them it's ok to feel ashamed etc.

I'm not sure if the latter effects of assault, like PTSD are something the person has any choice over though?

Ahh, Bloss! Where did you hear this? Or has this been your/someone you know's experience?

Rape counsellors are NOT meant to shame their clients, or infer that shame is appropriate. Sexual assault counselling is all about debunking the myths about rape, empowering survivors, and removing shame and self-blame.

[elucidate]

Guess I didn't write it out the way I meant for it to be taken.

Yes they are meant to debunk the myths and remove shame and self-blame, I make no claim of any counsellor shaming or blaming (though I had one who yawned alot and seemed bored, while I spoke with her, which didn't make me feel too good at the time...but looking back, I'm sure it had nothing to do with me). What I was getting at here was that , in reference to aelles comment about being able to control the emotional reactions to assault...that a person does not HAVE to feel these things in the first place...but if they go to counselling they are more likely to, since the cousellor will show them information on how alot of other women may feel afterwords and will give them the sense that it's ok to feel whatever comes up (which is a good thing mind you).

I didn't mean at all that they promote shaming...just that they may say that most women do feel shame, thus giving the person permission to feel all the things they are 'supposed' to, or 'may' feel. If a woman was raped, and did not expose herself to any information about how other women feel in the same circumstances, would she feel shame, or would she just carry on?

Does this make more sense?

Originally Posted by Gracestars

Ahh, Bloss! Where did you hear this? Or has this been your/someone you know's experience?

Rape counsellors are NOT meant to shame their clients, or infer that shame is appropriate. Sexual assault counselling is all about debunking the myths about rape, empowering survivors, and removing shame and self-blame.

[elucidate]

How is that even relevant? It's beyond rude.

You're basically calling weena a slut here. The guy was drawing wrong conclusions based on the clothes she was wearing. The guy she dated sorted it out...what does it matter when, or if she had sex with the guy.
That's just inappropriate and invasive to even ask.

Originally Posted by zenrealized

So how quickly did you bang the guy who beat the other guy up? That same night? Or the next day? Or just a hummer or something. I mean come on be honest.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by elucidate

How is that even relevant? It's beyond rude.

You're basically calling weena a slut here. The guy was drawing wrong conclusions based on the clothes she was wearing. The guy she dated sorted it out...what does it matter when, or if she had sex with the guy.
That's just inappropriate and invasive to even ask.

Well the guy who made the assumption that girls in skirts are girls looking for a sex partner, I did not know him from Adam.

As mentioned before, I'm sure zenrealised (ironic nickname) is a rude kid trolling around, couldn't care less what his little brain thinks of me. But it touches me that you are defending me, dear gorgeous friend .

[elucidate]

I'm sure you don't need it...it just made me mad to read his stupid comment. "Zen realised" ...Aha

Originally Posted by Weena

Well the guy who made the assumption that girls in skirts are girls looking for a sex partner, I did not know him from Adam.

As mentioned before, I'm sure zenrealised (ironic nickname) is a rude kid trolling around, couldn't care less what his little brain thinks of me. But it touches me that you are defending me, dear gorgeous friend .

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by Weena

I remember when i was 17 a guy asked me to have sex and when i said "sçuse me???" he said "who are you kidding, what with wearing a skirt and all?". I got quite upset. But a couple of weeks later he profusely apologised to me. I wondered why...turns out my date at the time beat him up in a public bathroom and told him he better apologise to me , that guy is unlikely to treat girls that way ever again, i think.

Both guys sounds like ******** to me.