Guilt about sex - guys judging girls so unfairly

[James81]

She is dressed to sex
And she's out to get some love
Just not on her dress.

[rei]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

If you read the context she was 17 years old at the time. Clearly they do not owe anyone anything. If they get that unwanted male attention though and that guy doesn't do anything to harm them physically and is just mouthy and he ends up getting beat up, that's wrong. I think that guy would then be justified in doing what he had to do to ****ing ruin that guys life. Even if he was being an *****.

What's really annoying is you think that I'm saying that she owes anyone anything. She should though accept that she's going to get the type of attention that she is attracting. To act like some fragile butterfly is absurd.

Okay, well, all she did in response to his advance was say, "Scuse me?" It was the other guy who got all knight in armor about it. That had nothing to do with her, as far as I can tell. Maybe he did get a bit overprotective, maybe not. But that was his choice, not hers.

Didn't the first guy get offended by her refusal though? Isn't that a pretty significant detail here? My whole point is I don't think she did anything wrong, and from what I can tell she didn't even know her date decided to beat him up.

You think getting beat up one time is properly repaid by ruining a life?

I think part of the point here is we ladies often work hard to reject as nicely as possible. Some guys don't hear it, or they get all b!tchy about it, and that gets old sometimes. Many attractive women get hit on constantly, and we appreciate it when a guy respects the boundaries we set up - when we don't have to get mean in our rejection (many of us really prefer not to be mean about it). Hearing no and getting snarky about what the woman is wearing (as if she's just there for anyone lol) is not really respecting our decision.

Maybe the guy beating him up was, shall we say, excessive. But that has nothing to do with how Weena handled the situation.

And it's all in the past anyway. Remind me again why you're analyzing the interaction to such an extent?

[LockedHeart]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Interestingly enough, for the past 6 months or so, the *only* times I have worn make up have been, at home alone. (And I still get hit on in grocery stores lol)

Either you a troll, or your few of women is incredibly limited. I mean you are in sorry straits bro. You do realize that females are also human, right? And therefore can have more complex motivations than sex and/or manipulation and power.

I have to agree with both of you. However we should not stereotype women under either catagory(simple or complex). Each person is an individual and the intentions of the heart cannot be absolutely determined by the way that person is dressed. Two ppl can wear the exact same outfit for different reasons. So before make a judgement, men should take the time to get to know the person under the clothes( I am not talking about sexually either).

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by James81

I spy with my little eye...MARS AND VENUS.

LOL. It seems their more going on here though than just male/female differences. ZR seems like he is being almost deliberately dense and/or sexist.

[Weena]

Fragile butterfly might be OTT but i sure do not see myself as a cheap person who will go for anything. The scenario written by zen was incredibly stupid. The date had asked me out by going to the movies, then go for drinks with an other friend then drove me home. And was behaving like a gentleman. So that whole thing that he made up in his mind is soooo dumb it's barely readable.

[ZephyrusX]

quote deleted by mod because of personal attack

Lol, where the hell did that come from? (I’m not laughing at you Weena, I’m amused by this little flight of fantasy ) Zen: you seem a little too concerned with defending your own views. The idea of forums is open dialogue. By open, I mean every person is willing to admit when they are wrong and learn from the perspectives of other members. Why don’t you stop defending your self and seriously think about what people have said to you? IMO, if you have received excellent dialogue, but you don’t seem to want to ‘mull it over’. Why did you come to these forums?

I get pride and arrogance to some degree. Sometimes I'll lamely defend my position for no other reason. But this is taking it to extremes. You can learn some thing valuable from these people.

[James81]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

LOL. It seems their more going on here though than just male/female differences. ZR seems like he is being almost deliberately dense and/or sexist.

Nah, I get what he is saying.

I think the wires are getting crossed in this debate. Martians are speaking Martian and Venusians are speaking some loopy language from over yonder knoll or some ♥♥♥♥.

[James81]

Originally Posted by angela

lmao!

[st33med]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

LOL. It seems their more going on here though than just male/female differences. ZR seems like he is being almost deliberately dense and/or sexist.

Yep. I think his replies are truly reflecting his sexist personality.
Either that or he is trolling.

I have a suspicion that most of us will have him on ignore by the end.

[rei]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Huggles! (I *love* it) *hug, hug, hug, cuddles...huggles!!!*

Woot, my word coinage reaches another's insides!

(um... ew, somehow... lol)

Originally Posted by James81

Things getting old...things getting boring.

You in some kind of a lull or something? (seriously asking cause you've mentioned being bored several times)

But yeah, I don't particularly care for men who tear women (or others in general) down to build themselves up either...but then again, that didn't sound like zen. (Of course, I've only been half-heartedly reading this conversation off and on throughout the night on my iPod (and now my laptop), so i might be forgetting something here.

Ha, actually, I've had a lot of extra excitement occurring lately. Two job interviews this week and progress for my online business.

Calling it boring is probably not full honesty, though. More likely I get all in my power in convos like this and sometimes that interferes with winding down for sleep. It's interesting to engage the dynamic, but the dynamic itself is not new to me at all.

(Hmm. One thing, though, is I am quite ready to be done with my current transition yesterday. So maybe that relates to a lull type of thing. Ready to be in a new space with all the changes made and finished adjusting to them... Interesting. I'll reflect more on that, thanks, James )

Oh, and he got pretty insulting towards Weena earlier.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

LOL. It seems their more going on here though than just male/female differences. ZR seems like he is being almost deliberately dense and/or sexist.

No, I share my venus life with a mars life and he is just a very intelligent, classy man who would NEVER even think of talking to women like that. His level of education/intelligence is just better than average I guess. And I'm glad to know my son will never end up like zen thinking pervie thoughts about women based on their clothes.

EDIT, i thought i quoted james, sorry sos

[James81]

Originally Posted by Weena

thinking pervie thoughts about women based on their clothes.

Ooh la la! I love thinking pervie thoughts about women based on their clothes!

Wear that tight dress...mmmm mmmm....that bra is pushing them together nicely! mmm mmmm! That dress makes you look nice and curvy and delicious....ZOMG!

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

Nah, I get what he is saying.

I think the wires are getting crossed in this debate. Martians are speaking Martian and Venusians are speaking some loopy language from over yonder knoll or some ♥♥♥♥.

I dunno, James. I've met plenty of men who don't engage in black/white generalized thinking. I am not sure it's just Martian.

But whatever his purpose here, he doesn't seem all that receptive right now. And that is okay.

But women wear makeup and skirts for a ton of reasons - often it's about other women.
It may sometimes mean women dress that way for sexual reasons, but - that doesn't necessarily mean they will want to sleep with any specific person.

Most "females" i know dress up for each other more so than for men. Men could care less whether your clothes match. You could wear plaid and polka dots and still get a date.

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

Ooh la la! I love thinking pervie thoughts about women based on their clothes!

Wear that tight dress...mmmm mmmm....that bra is pushing them together nicely! mmm mmmm! That dress makes you look nice and curvy and delicious....ZOMG!

And I appreciate positive attention, some kind of acknowledgment of the effort. It's about the intent, the delivery, and how much respect is going on. It's also about whether the woman has already decided she is attracted, in some cases.

Here's a great example. A guy who wanted to sleep with me recently called me buttface. He meant it affectionately, but was still unsuccessful at his goal (neg or no neg).

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Again. Your assumption is that the attention she attracted is the attention she intended/sought. That the man's appraisal of her outfit was appropriate.

In a lot of cases it's absolutely appropriate. Unless the girl is just really dumb or something she's completely aware of the result.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by rei

Here's a great example. A guy who wanted to sleep with me recently called me buttface. He meant it affectionately, but was still unsuccessful at his goal (neg or no neg).

WHAT was he thinking? I'm laughing so hard, the last time I heard that was my brother trying to steal my cell phone! Lol!

[Weena]

Originally Posted by James81

Ooh la la! I love thinking pervie thoughts about women based on their clothes!

Wear that tight dress...mmmm mmmm....that bra is pushing them together nicely! mmm mmmm! That dress makes you look nice and curvy and delicious....ZOMG!

Let me reformulate: " that he won't assume he can rudely demand sex from women based on their clothes".

Your thoughts belong to you. But you wouldn't go "hey you look curvy and yummy, let's get into my car and have sex, because i just decided that's what you want".

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Weena

No, I share my venus life with a mars life and he is just a very intelligent, classy man who would NEVER even think of talking to women like that. His level of education/intelligence is just better than average I guess. And I'm glad to know my son will never end up like zen thinking pervie thoughts about women based on their clothes.

EDIT, i thought i quoted james, sorry sos

No problem, lovely.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by rei

Here's a great example. A guy who wanted to sleep with me recently called me buttface. He meant it affectionately, but was still unsuccessful at his goal (neg or no neg).

Hey buttface! You look so gorgeous with that monkey avatar. ^.^

[LockedHeart]

Originally Posted by rei

i dunno, james. I've met plenty of men who don't engage in black/white generalized thinking. I am not sure it's just martian.

But whatever his purpose here, he doesn't seem all that receptive right now. And that is okay.

But women wear makeup and skirts for a ton of reasons - often it's about other women.
It may sometimes mean women dress that way for sexual reasons, but - that doesn't necessarily mean they will want to sleep with any specific person.

Most "females" i know dress up for each other more so than for men. Men could care less whether your clothes match. You could wear plaid and polka dots and still get a date.

hey < what is wrong with plaid and polka dots???

[rei]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

In a lot of cases it's absolutely appropriate. Unless the girl is just really dumb or something she's completely aware of the result.

A lot of cases doesn't mean always.

You honestly feel, in your heart of hearts, that women only dress up for men - never for women, or for themselves?

Geez. I have tattoos and piercings. I won't even ask what assumptions you'd draw about that

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

In a lot of cases it's absolutely appropriate. Unless the girl is just really dumb or something she's completely aware of the result.

Every person has the right to dress as they wish, without being subjected to harrassing, unwanted attention/comments.

How I dress has nothing to do with you, and is none of your business.

[James81]

Originally Posted by rei

Here's a great example. A guy who wanted to sleep with me recently called me buttface. He meant it affectionately, but was still unsuccessful at his goal (neg or no neg).

That made me laugh out loud.

Buttface rings a little too close to "butterface" for that to be any kind of thing you ever want to say to a woman...ever.

I don't really think that's a "neg" by PUA standards anyway. From what I remember, a neg is kind of a backended compliment. (The most famous example I remember was from the Mystery Method and it was like...

Guy: Are those nails real?
Girl: No, acrylic (or whatever)
Guy: Oh, well at least they LOOK good.)

[aelle]

I am amazed by the massive mental disconnect here. How can you seriously reconciliate the ideas that a woman should expect men to feel entitled to her body, while a man getting punched for being a jerk is disturbing? You are the one, after all, who claimed that if someone gets in the game they should accept the consequences.

[rei]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

WHAT was he thinking? I'm laughing so hard, the last time I heard that was my brother trying to steal my cell phone! Lol!

I know right? LOL dude got stuck in 5th grade I think

Originally Posted by st33med

Hey buttface! You look so gorgeous with that monkey avatar. ^.^

Don't I know it?

Originally Posted by LockedHeart

hey < what is wrong with plaid and polka dots???

LOL Absolutely nothing m'dear! Mix them with oceanic hues and you're def on trend

Oh, and...
Bffffffff hahahahaha AWESOME!!!

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by zenrealized

In a lot of cases it's absolutely appropriate. Unless the girl is just really dumb or something she's completely aware of the result.

And this is at the heart of the discussion here. The insistence that women, unless they're "really dumb" intended whatever interpretation guys take from something they've done/said/worn (particularly in regard to sex), and can therefore be held partially responsible for the man's actions resulting from that interpretation.

"But Your Honour! She was drinking, and wearing a short skirt, so she was obviously out to score!" (Because if I, as a man, was looking to score, those might be actions I'd take.)

Has it occurred to you that women and men might have quite different ways of thinking about and approaching sex? And that a male interpretation of a female behaviour *especially* in regard to intention and *doubly especially* in regard to sexual intention, could well be off-base?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Weena

Your thoughts belong to you. But you wouldn't go "hey you look curvy and yummy, let's get into my car and have sex, because i just decided that's what you want".

I've got a fiver that says that line would work on 1 in 10 girls.

Gotta play the odds, darlin.

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

That made me laugh out loud.

Buttface rings a little too close to "butterface" for that to be any kind of thing you ever want to say to a woman...ever.

I don't really think that's a "neg" by PUA standards anyway. From what I remember, a neg is kind of a backended compliment. (The most famous example I remember was from the Mystery Method and it was like...

Guy: Are those nails real?
Girl: No, acrylic (or whatever)
Guy: Oh, well at least they LOOK good.)

Yeah, either way. I don't claim to be an expert on applying the term. But it's def not a good way to get to a girl's bedroom...

Butterface, on the other hand, could be the sign of a really fun evening

[zenrealized]

Originally Posted by Weena

Fragile butterfly might be OTT but i sure do not see myself as a cheap person who will go for anything. The scenario written by zen was incredibly stupid. The date had asked me out by going to the movies, then go for drinks with an other friend then drove me home. And was behaving like a gentleman. So that whole thing that he made up in his mind is soooo dumb it's barely readable.

Ok weena that sounds like a nice date then. I got pissed cause the guy got beat up and you didn't appear to be especially upset by it.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by rei

I know right? LOL dude got stuck in 5th grade I think

Exactly what I was thinking.