Sexual Harassment

[ssandra]

In a recent discussion with RoxyRuby it came to my attention how different people may think about sexual harassment.

I'm curious now how other people consider it.

I'm not interested here in text book definitions, but in personal opinions. I'd like to know what you consider sexual harassment and how you came to that conclusion.


For me sexual harassment is when someone is making overly sexual remarks and does not stop after I explicitly ask them to.
Same with touching. For me it is only sexual harassment when they don't stop after I explicitly ask them

[roxyruby]

To me sexual harassment is also staring at someone in an unacceptable amount, even if you think they're hot. (or staring too much for non-sexual purposes as well)

It's disrespectful, uncomfortable or even scary to them, and not treating them as an equal and fellow human being.

That is of course unless they don't mind or like being stared at a lot. Some people might take it as a compliment, but a shy person or someone with social anxiety disorder may feel disrespected, scared, and dehumanized, and a certain percentage of people have social anxiety disorder so staring at people a lot basically has a definite potential to cause people emotional damage.

Other areas of possible sexual harassment I'm not certain about:

Deliberately standing too close to someone or next to or too close to their body during socializing. I don't know but to me this feels like they are trying to subtly "claim you" as some sort of partner of theirs. But maybe they simply don't realize what they're doing or have different definitions of social boundaries. It's all about the meaning that is damaging!

It depends on circumstances though. A single, flirtatious person may love this...a shy person or someone with social anxiety disorder may find it emotionally traumatizing believing the person is trying to make them uncomfortable to humiliate them (1 in 10 people have social anxiety disorder at some point in their life)

Maybe the emotional damage there is because of social anxiety though, not those actions from others.

[butterflyeffect]

I am not sure 100% how I would define sexual harrasment but I used to work with a manager who got in trouble for this topic about a year ago.

It was a really small team in a retail store, we were all in our early twenties. The manager was 20 and a gay male who loved to talk about his sex life, profess his love for everyone and ask us if we felt he was sexually attractive. He also hit on the other team members boyfriends in front of them and asked them to participate in threesomes. It wasn't my thing but he was alot of fun to work with and a great manager aside from his wacky tendencies to overshare. Plus I figured that I was being a bit oversensitive because no one else cared and it was done in good humour. The acceptance of his behavior was primarily because he was GAY. I asked . Being gay gave him the right to do anything sexually innappropriate because he wasn't sexually attracted to girls, alot of people seemed to share the same opinion. Although had he been straight it would have been a very different story.

[Criseyde]

I consider sexual harassment to be any kind of inappropriate conduct of a sexual nature (lewd comments, coercion, etc). Sexual touching/groping/fondling without consent is sexual assault.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

I consider sexual harassment to be any kind of inappropriate conduct of a sexual nature (lewd comments, coercion, etc).

Ok, but what would be for you examples of lewd comments?

English isn't my first language so I'm not having a great understanding of what lewd exactly means.

For example:

Somebody telling me on the street that I have beautiful eyes? Harassment or not?

A boss telling me that I look good in a certain outfit. Harassment or not?

A boss telling me that I look hot in a certain outfit, harassment or not?

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

That is of course unless they don't mind or like being stared at a lot. Some people might take it as a compliment, but a shy person or someone with social anxiety disorder may feel disrespected, scared, and dehumanized, and a certain percentage of people have social anxiety disorder so staring at people a lot basically has a definite potential to cause people emotional damage.

I'm not saying this isn't true, but it does make other people responsible for those person feelings.

So, if I really like somebody and I'm looking at them a lot, for you that might constitute sexual harassment, and therefor it shouldn't be done, because it has the potential to make some people feel uncomfortable?

I'm not saying that they don't feel the way they feel, or shouldn't feel the way they feel. But I also do not think it is fair to make it the responsibility of the rest of the people to NOT make them feel that way.

[elucidate]

This is how I feel about it as well. It happened to me on saturday night, and it was VERY uncomfortable, and dehumanizing. He was a total stranger, and very overt about it and even dropped comments about wanting to tie me to a table at the house I was at with my friends. He was seriously wierd, and not in a good way Thankfully a mate of mine put him in his place, cos I just froze after initially arking up and saying "WTF?".

It leaves the person off guard and , for me, I never seem to react quickly enough...like it causes this mind **** to happen where I go into a state of shock when I should be telling the guy to **** off...I don't know how to handle it. It is very disarming and unpleasant. I should, by rights report him.

So yeah, staring all the time (this guy did not take his eyes off me all night, literally, looking me up and down and saying wierd things to me about how I wish I had a 'winkle'...and he was not at all attractive to me either, not that it would have made a difference if a hot guy made me feel uncomfortable this way.

There doesn't have to be any physical contact for it to be sexual harassment, and I honestly think that the people who do this get off more on watching the woman squirm from the non-verbal body language and the verbal words that cause the women to be feeling uncomfortable.

I try not to let on that I am feeling this because I think that's what they want to see. I sometimes find it hard to find my voice with these types of people, and so I feel even worse about myself because I wasn't able to stand up to them and say how it made me feel and to stop it. It's like this feeling of being completely impotent in a way, though not sexually.

Originally Posted by roxyruby

To me sexual harassment is also staring at someone in an unacceptable amount, even if you think they're hot. (or staring too much for non-sexual purposes as well)

It's disrespectful, uncomfortable or even scary to them, and not treating them as an equal and fellow human being.

That is of course unless they don't mind or like being stared at a lot. Some people might take it as a compliment, but a shy person or someone with social anxiety disorder may feel disrespected, scared, and dehumanized, and a certain percentage of people have social anxiety disorder so staring at people a lot basically has a definite potential to cause people emotional damage.

Other areas of possible sexual harassment I'm not certain about:

Deliberately standing too close to someone or next to or too close to their body during socializing. I don't know but to me this feels like they are trying to subtly "claim you" as some sort of partner of theirs. But maybe they simply don't realize what they're doing or have different definitions of social boundaries. It's all about the meaning that is damaging!

It depends on circumstances though. A single, flirtatious person may love this...a shy person or someone with social anxiety disorder may find it emotionally traumatizing believing the person is trying to make them uncomfortable to humiliate them (1 in 10 people have social anxiety disorder at some point in their life)

Maybe the emotional damage there is because of social anxiety though, not those actions from others.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by elucidate

This is how I feel about it as well. It happened to me on saturday night, and it was VERY uncomfortable, and dehumanizing. He was overt about it and even dropped comments about wanting to tie me to a table at the house I was at with my friends. He was seriously wierd, and not in a good way

In this case was it the comments that made you feel uncomfortable or was it the staring, or a combination? So, if it was just one of the above would it have made you feel just as uncomfortable?

I'm not saying that either you or Roxyruby are "wrong" or something here btw! I want to make that very clear!! I'm just very curious on how you get to feel this way.


In a situation like this I'd feel unsafe and therefor uncomfortable. I'd not see it as sexual harassment though, unless and until I told the person to stop it and they wouldn't.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Ok, but what would be for you examples of lewd comments?

English isn't my first language so I'm not having a great understanding of what lewd exactly means.

For example:

Somebody telling me on the street that I have beautiful eyes? Harassment or not?

A boss telling me that I look good in a certain outfit. Harassment or not?

A boss telling me that I look hot in a certain outfit, harassment or not?

It depends on the person. Communication is key. Not much you can do about comments on the street (nice ones or rude ones) but in a situation with a boss or a co-worker, if you let them know that whatever way they are "appreciating" you is making you uncomfortable, for the sake of a peaceful work environment, it would probably be better for everyone if they stopped.

[elucidate]

I don't think it's necessarily the harasser's place to be responsable for the other person's feelings...and obviously they are not, they are more concerned with being sleazy and getting off on their own innapropriate behaviour, as dictated by society.

It would be nice if they did give a damn about how it might make the other person feel to be treated this way, but it's probably not gonna happen...so it might be better to just slap 'em and go somewhere where they aren't

Originally Posted by ssandra

I'm not saying this isn't true, but it does make other people responsible for those person feelings.

So, if I really like somebody and I'm looking at them a lot, for you that might constitute sexual harassment, and therefor it shouldn't be done, because it has the potential to make some people feel uncomfortable?

I'm not saying that they don't feel the way they feel, or shouldn't feel the way they feel. But I also do not think it is fair to make it the responsibility of the rest of the people to NOT make them feel that way.

[Angela]

I had a boss when I was a teenager who told me that if I didn't sleep with him, he'd fire me. I consider that sexual harassment.

If someone makes an insinnuendo or two in my direction, I don't consider that sexual harassment. I would likely consider that (s)he's harassing me if I were to say, "stop" and they continued.

[elucidate]

It was a number of things...the comments, the way I would catch him staring at me for long periods of time without turning his eyes away, and I would have to pretend I didn't notice, 'cos I knew that he knew that I did...and he liked seeing me squirm, I think.

Asking me to take acid with him when I'd just met him, making that sound you make when you've just consumed something delicious, or you're just about to, then walking very close behind me and whistling...it was kinda creepy, but I guess you had to be there. I know that if brett and my other mate troy weren't there, there is NO WAY I would have gone to that house with him and another bloke who my friend knew. My friends didn't know him that well, and said that he'd never behaved that way prior to that night, so they hadn't seen that side of him, and just assumed he was allright.
He didn't keep it up after I said "WTF?" when he made that comment about tying me to the table, (infact he left after that), and then brett stepped in and said "there'll be none of that". I was kinda caught off guard, so I'm glad I had back up that night.

Originally Posted by ssandra

In this case was it the comments that made you feel uncomfortable or was it the staring, or a combination? So, if it was just one of the above would it have made you feel just as uncomfortable?

I'm not saying that either you or Roxyruby are "wrong" or something here btw! I want to make that very clear!! I'm just very curious on how you get to feel this way.


In a situation like this I'd feel unsafe and therefor uncomfortable. I'd not see it as sexual harassment though, unless and until I told the person to stop it and they wouldn't.

[Criseyde]

Oh, but Sandra, to answer the language question, none of the examples you gave are really "lewd." A lewd comment would be something like "wow, nice t*ts."

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by elucidate

This is how I feel about it as well. It happened to me on saturday night, and it was VERY uncomfortable, and dehumanizing. He was a total stranger, and very overt about it and even dropped comments about wanting to tie me to a table at the house I was at with my friends. He was seriously wierd, and not in a good way Thankfully a mate of mine put him in his place, cos I just froze after initially arking up and saying "WTF?".

It leaves the person off guard and , for me, I never seem to react quickly enough...like it causes this mind **** to happen where I go into a state of shock when I should be telling the guy to **** off...I don't know how to handle it. It is very disarming and unpleasant. I should, by rights report him.

So yeah, staring all the time (this guy did not take his eyes off me all night, literally, looking me up and down and saying wierd things to me about how I wish I had a 'winkle'...and he was not at all attractive to me either, not that it would have made a difference if a hot guy made me feel uncomfortable this way.

There doesn't have to be any physical contact for it to be sexual harassment, and I honestly think that the people who do this get off more on watching the woman squirm from the non-verbal body language and the verbal words that cause the women to be feeling uncomfortable.

I try not to let on that I am feeling this because I think that's what they want to see. I sometimes find it hard to find my voice with these types of people, and so I feel even worse about myself because I wasn't able to stand up to them and say how it made me feel and to stop it. It's like this feeling of being completely impotent in a way, though not sexually.

I'm sorry for what you went though Elucidate, hope you're ok *hugs*

Yes that was abuse. That person was abusing you sexually/emotionally.

Disrespect and no-care of you or your feelings.

[roxyruby]

What about this?

You know how it's acceptable for family members to give each-other a kiss on the cheek?

My Uncle asking if he can kiss my neck? In front of all my family and relatives? Then acting like it's a joke and everyone laughing?

This happened another time and he joked about kissing me again asking if he could have a kiss from me

And everyone just laughed.

I think I might have given him a kiss on the cheek to be polite, I can't remember, but I felt very uncomfortable, dehumanized, and disrespected.

[elucidate]

In regards to your question about whether I would have felt uncomfortable with only the comments or only the staring...I think I would have felt uncomfortable with the staring, if that's all he did. The comments, I could have overlooked without having too much of an overt emotional reaction, though I probably would have felt able to say something about...like, I remember, I did say to him at one point that I hadn't heard the word winkle since I was a child, and just laughed at it, so I didn't feel like he 'won' with that, it was more the staring to be honest.

[elucidate]

That sounds like your uncle was totally and openly hitting on you, and using the fact that noone would think anything of it to have some sort of power over you. That's just creepy to me. I don't know how I would respond in that situation. Icky.

Originally Posted by roxyruby

What about this?

You know how it's acceptable for family members to give each-other a kiss on the cheek?

My Uncle asking if he can kiss my neck? In front of all my family and relatives? Then acting like it's a joke and everyone laughing?

This happened another time and he joked about kissing me again asking if he could have a kiss from me

And everyone just laughed.

I think I might have given him a kiss on the cheek to be polite, I can't remember, but I felt very uncomfortable, dehumanized, and disrespected.

[elucidate]

I've experienced my own brother trying to persuade me to have sex with his ****buddy while he filmed it to sell over the internet as porn. THAT was creepy.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by elucidate

In regards to your question about whether I would have felt uncomfortable with only the comments or only the staring...I think I would have felt uncomfortable with the staring, if that's all he did. The comments, I could have overlooked without having too much of an overt emotional reaction, though I probably would have felt able to say something about...like, I remember, I did say to him at one point that I hadn't heard the word winkle since I was a child, and just laughed at it, so I didn't feel like he 'won' with that, it was more the staring to be honest.

I don't know if he was trying to dominate you into having sex with him or just wanted to emotionally damage another human being. Which is a bit sadistic. Yeah no-one should have to be around a person who be's like that.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I've experienced my own brother trying to persuade me to have sex with his ****buddy while he filmed it to sell over the internet as porn. THAT was creepy.

Woa lol. Yeah that would even make you feel sick cause it's your brother.

[aelle]

For me the defining elements of sexual harassment is that it is non consensual, non-physical, and a repeated offense. It's when after I have made clear through whatever means I see fit that I am uncomfortable with xyz lewd joke, sexual comment, inappropriate staring etc. and wish not to be part of the exchange anymore, the person continues.

If the person stops right away and goes back to a behaviour I am comfortable with, it's one inappropriate act. It's not harassment.

If I am enjoying the dirty talk or flattering comments, and making it clear, through whatever means I see fit, that the person may continue, then it's not sexual harassment. Until and unless I stop being comfortable and make it known. But the consensual part of the exchange does not become harassment by retrospect.

Also, like in Angela's example, if the relationship involves a power dynamics (teacher/student, employer/employee, adult/child, etc.) that makes it more difficult for one person to express their lack of consent, then any exchange of sexual nature is harassment (unless consent is genuinely, enthusiastically and repeatedly expressed).

[elucidate]

He was being manipulative with his words...like saying to me "take acid with me tomorrow", and when I'd say "Uh, I don't take acid with people I don't know or have just met...that sort of thing is done with people I trust, or not at all...If I want to...and I don't!" He then said "I was just being spontaneous" and it made me think that he was trying to make me feel like I was being somehow "unspontaneous" for not running off with him when he wanted me to...it felt like a subtle mind game. But it could have been just my female brain interpreting this way?

I felt helpless, so I think he may have been trying to dominate me?

Originally Posted by roxyruby

I don't know if he was trying to dominate you into having sex with him or just wanted to emotionally damage another human being. Which is a bit sadistic. Yeah no-one should have to be around a person who be's like that.

[secrets0stolen]

I tend to agree with ssandra here, but after reading other's feelings on this I'm kinda shocked. I had no idea some people felt that comments or staring were harassment (with ssandra, I'd like to make sure you all realize I don't think any of you are "wrong" in any way, it's just unfamiliar to me).

To me, sexual harassment would be lude comments after I explicitly asked him or her to stop, and things like non-consensual bum slaps and what-not. (by non-consensual here I mean, if it were my bf or a good friend, there would pretty much be implied consent; but not someone I didn't know well or had a professional relationship with)

[elucidate]

Well, let's just say, I don't spend a great deal of time around brother dearest...and he couldn't for the life of him work out why I didn't call him for his birthday.

He's got serious sickness going on IMO.

Originally Posted by roxyruby

Woa lol. Yeah that would even make you feel sick cause it's your brother.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by elucidate

He was being manipulative with his words...like saying to me "take acid with me tomorrow", and when I'd say "Uh, I don't take acid with people I don't know or have just met...that sort of thing is done with people I trust, or not at all...If I want to...and I don't!" He then said "I was just being spontaneous" and it made me think that he was trying to make me feel like I was being somehow "unspontaneous" for not running off with him when he wanted me to...it felt like a subtle mind game. But it could have been just my female brain interpreting this way?

I felt helpless, so I think he may have been trying to dominate me?

"female brain"? I've listened to males analyzing encounters with the opposite sex or social situations that caused them anxiety in just as much detail

Oh yep, psychological manipulation. Not cool!

Like they try to make you feel like you are "uncool" for not doing what they want you do to?

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Well, let's just say, I don't spend a great deal of time around brother dearest...and he couldn't for the life of him work out why I didn't call him for his birthday.

He's got serious sickness going on IMO.

serious sickness in what way?

He sees you in a sexual way?

Or he's a bully to you?

[elucidate]

I think it is more aligned with my truth to say that I allowed him to by not telling him to stop straight away. There are people like that everywhere, and they will always try and get away with it. It's up to the person being harassed to say something and not let it escalate...as the harasser will always try and push the boundaries as far as he can go.

Thanks for the cyber hug though. It wasn't a good situation to be in, and sometimes it takes me a while to actually click to what's going on and respond appropriately. I seem to have trouble in this area...and I do my best to overcome this, but sometimes I slip into old habits of timidity or passivity or just not recognising a situation for what it is when it is happening. Being stoned didn't help too much I guess

Originally Posted by roxyruby

I'm sorry for what you went though Elucidate, hope you're ok *hugs*

Yes that was abuse. That person was abusing you sexually/emotionally.

Disrespect and no-care of you or your feelings.

[elucidate]

Both.

Originally Posted by roxyruby

serious sickness in what way?

He sees you in a sexual way?

Or he's a bully to you?

[elucidate]

Yes, that's exactly it. He tried to make me think I was being somehow unspontaneous and therefore not as 'free-spirited' , but I didn't fall for that. I just firmly told him that I only take acid with people I've known for a while and am comfortable with and trust. I backed away from him physically to let him know I wasn't interested , and went and talked to someone else I preferred to be around.

Originally Posted by roxyruby

"female brain"? I've listened to males analyzing encounters with the opposite sex or social situations that caused them anxiety in just as much detail

Oh yep, psychological manipulation. Not cool!

Like they try to make you feel like you are "uncool" for not doing what they want you do to?

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I think it is more aligned with my truth to say that I allowed him to by not telling him to stop straight away. There are people like that everywhere, and they will always try and get away with it. It's up to the person being harassed to say something and not let it escalate...as the harasser will always try and push the boundaries as far as he can go.

Thanks for the cyber hug though. It wasn't a good situation to be in, and sometimes it takes me a while to actually click to what's going on and respond appropriately. I seem to have trouble in this area...and I do my best to overcome this, but sometimes I slip into old habits of timidity or passivity or just not recognising a situation for what it is when it is happening. Being stoned didn't help too much I guess

aw yeah, well it is your right to stand up for your self girl! Read the truth and courage section in Steve Pavlinas book ^ ^

I know what it's like though, social fear. Don't worry about it & just do the best that you can.