Social & Relationships experiment: Honestly feedback to other posters.

[yossarian]

I made a post awhile ago about how I think in this forum we should be experimenting socially using the relationships here with each other.

One thing I think can be really good for people is receiving honest, blunt feedback from someone. Feedback that isn't censored by social desirability.

When I comment on others I usually try to leave out the bad stuff and focus on the good. I think this is pretty common. If everyone does this to one another, it means people never really get honest feedback about their flaws - they never get a realistic evaluation. They never really know how others see them and their self-image is based mostly on their own perception of themselves rather than informed by the perceptions of others.

Anyway I know that personally I am usually eternally grateful to people who give me their blunt and honest opinions about me.

So the idea for this thread:

Give your honest, uncensored opinions of other posters with all brutal negative opinions included and nothing left out. Most of us are well practiced at saying the good stuff - I think it is usually harder for people to say bad stuff about others than good stuff. So dig deep, push your comfort zone, and give negative feedback.


Obviously ONLY do this to posters who offer themselves up voluntarily to be analyzed. If you are open to receiving this you need to say so specifically.

Stuff that should be relayed:

Perceptions:
- I see/hear/read you saying something or doing something.
- see/hear/taste/touch/smell

Interpretations:
- I interpret the stuff I see you say as being X.
- I believe that you are a person who does X.
- I think you do X because of Y.
- interpret/think/believe/judge

Feelings:
- I feel warm/open towards you.
- I feel closed/distant towards you.
- warm/open/comfortable/closed/distant/uncomfortable (These emotionally locate you with respect to a person so they are the hardest to relay, especially when negative.)
- angry/sad/annoyed/disgust/fear/contempt
- joy/trust/surprise/love/awe

If you want to receive feedback, post below saying so. If you are willing to give feedback, well, go for it

Naturally, I personally welcome anyone who is willing to do me the favour of being brutally honest with their perceptions/interpretations/feelings of me regardless of how badly it may hurt my feelings.

[Elrond]

Hmmm a yossarian thread. Thread's got potential.

[MidasGirl]

I didn't know we get to be asked if we want to receive tough feedback. Dude, you always just give it to me --Midasgirl, you are awfully condescending-so I guess you can just continue to give me feedback since I never objected in the first place.

As for giving, I just post when inspired, if someone doesn't like my response I'm sure they will tell me.

Lay it on me!

Btw, can I still tell you you're full of manure for any feedback you give that doesn't sit well with me?

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Lay it on me!

You're TOO sexy for your own good, and it gets all the guys around here flustered and out-of-sorts. Yeesh. It makes it tough for everybody to think straight.

[Plays With Life]

I'll put myself up for brutal honesty.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

You're TOO sexy for your own good, and it gets all the guys around here flustered and out-of-sorts. Yeesh. It makes it tough for everybody to think straight.

Awww.....you're a sweetheart. I don't think it gets all the guys around here flustered, just a couple

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

You're TOO sexy for your own good, and it gets all the guys around here flustered and out-of-sorts. Yeesh. It makes it tough for everybody to think straight.

I thought it would make it easier? ^^

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Elrond

I thought it would make it easier? ^^

Haha. She does make it easy to be a straight guy.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I didn't know we get to be asked if we want to receive tough feedback. Dude, you always just give it to me --Midasgirl, you are awfully condescending-so I guess you can just continue to give me feedback since I never objected in the first place.

As for giving, I just post when inspired, if someone doesn't like my response I'm sure they will tell me.

Lay it on me!

Btw, can I still tell you you're full of manure for any feedback you give that doesn't sit well with me?

Most people aren't like us. You're one of the few people on this forum who is willing to do that.

I attract wide criticism for some of my odd ideas but criticism of those ideas isn't the same as PERSONAL criticism or personal feedback.

So, for me to give you feedback, I pretty much would just say:

I feel warm to you and comfortable around you because I think that you've given me honest personal feedback in the past. At the same time I'm sure there is more that you could give, it would just be stuff that you routinely do not share so you don't even consider the possibility of sharing it.

For instance maybe sharing an attitude towards me (or someone) like if you were to say "I think you're creepy" or "I'm scared of you" or "I don't care about you at all" or whatever.

What I want to dig at is the stuff people DON'T share. That is the stuff I want to socially experiment with. In order to even realize that you're not sharing something, a person needs to dig into themselves a bit and say "What do I feel towards this person which I'd never even consider saying, but will say for the sake of an experiment?"

Anyway that's the kind of stuff I hope people can get at for each other.

This would be a lot more dangerous and exciting in real life, haha. But even on the internet, in some cases, we've known each other here for almost 4 years now. Those relationships do add up to something.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

You're TOO sexy for your own good, and it gets all the guys around here flustered and out-of-sorts. Yeesh. It makes it tough for everybody to think straight.

I read you always saying these positive things like this. Stuff that is always upbeat, vibey, positive, flirty. My interpretation is that there is loads of yourself you don't share. I think that you're keeping things shallow and lighthearted due to an inner fear that if you demonstrated any non-positive attitudes or opinions or behaviours you would be rejected. Or simply receive reactions from people that you don't want.

I believe that you have pain and sadness and negative attitudes just like anyone else, that you have sincere beliefs and strongly-held opinions, that there are some things to you that really are sacred and that you would die for. That you have hot buttons and sensitive parts of yourself. But that you don't want to share any of this because you learned that it doesn't get positive reactions. So you focus on the stuff that always gets positive reactions - shallow, flirty, upbeat.

I recognize this is just my story about you though. I don't really have any confidence in my interpretation of you. But since you don't share anything besides your flirtatiousness and sexuality I don't really have anything to go so I guess my head automatically fills in the blanks with a story.

I feel distant from you because I think you, more than probably anyone on this forum, withhold negative opinions. This makes me distrust you because I don't know what else is in there. It's just Quagmire from Family Guy 100% of the time. It's kind of like you only have one note to play - horny and upbeat. While most people go between various emotions you always stay the same - horny and upbeat. I can see how this is fun - how it's fun to "play with life" - but I just don't think it's real.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I read you always saying these positive things like this. Stuff that is always upbeat, vibey, positive, flirty. My interpretation is that there is loads of yourself you don't share. I think that you're keeping things shallow and lighthearted due to an inner fear that if you demonstrated any non-positive attitudes or opinions or behaviours you would be rejected. Or simply receive reactions from people that you don't want.

I believe that you have pain and sadness and negative attitudes just like anyone else, that you have sincere beliefs and strongly-held opinions, that there are some things to you that really are sacred and that you would die for. That you have hot buttons and sensitive parts of yourself. But that you don't want to share any of this because you learned that it doesn't get positive reactions. So you focus on the stuff that always gets positive reactions - shallow, flirty, upbeat.

I recognize this is just my story about you though. I don't really have any confidence in my interpretation of you. But since you don't share anything besides your flirtatiousness and sexuality I don't really have anything to go so I guess my head automatically fills in the blanks with a story.

I feel distant from you because I think you, more than probably anyone on this forum, withhold negative opinions. This makes me distrust you because I don't know what else is in there. It's just Quagmire from Family Guy 100% of the time. It's kind of like you only have one note to play - horny and upbeat. While most people go between various emotions you always stay the same - horny and upbeat. I can see how this is fun - how it's fun to "play with life" - but I just don't think it's real.

LOL about the Quagmire.

It's true - I go through uncomfortable emotions pretty often. I just don't bring them to the forum. It doesn't usually cross my mind to interact with people, in general, when I'm feeling something uncomfortable. I withdraw and deal with it; then interact when I'm feeling good.

I don't usually get angry, if that's what you mean by hot buttons. It's rare for me to feel anger. But I definitely have emotional triggers that happen throughout the day.

But the forum is a place for me to play, so that's what I bring here.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by yossarian

It's kind of like you only have one note to play - horny and upbeat. While most people go between various emotions you always stay the same - horny and upbeat. I can see how this is fun - how it's fun to "play with life" - but I just don't think it's real.

ROTFL................That's freaking hilarious.

I like him that way, horny and upbeat. I wouldn't have him any other way.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I wouldn't have him any other way.

See PWL I was right. You will be rejected if you stop being horny and upbeat. No sadness allowed!

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

It's true - I go through uncomfortable emotions pretty often. I just don't bring them to the forum. It doesn't usually cross my mind to interact with people, in general, when I'm feeling something uncomfortable. I withdraw and deal with it; then interact when I'm feeling good.

Doesn't this create shallow relationships? If you never share the bad things...

[James81]

Yeah, lay it on me.

[yossarian]

It just occurred to me: what I'm really asking people to do is to make personal attacks. An environment where personal attacks are outlawed seems flawed to me. It seems, essentially, fake and broken and dysfunctional. I consider personal attacks to be an integral part of what brings people together. Every non-fake environment has some form of acceptable personal attack.

So far I'm really the only one making personal attacks. We need more people to make some personal attacks.

MidasGirl made a slight personal attack too but she always does that.

So basically, in this thread so far, everyone has acted the same way they normally act.

The only difference is the mods haven't deleted my posts and sent me threatening PMs yet. (They may still do that... )

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by James81

Yeah, lay it on me.

My interpretation of you is that you're a married lonely guy who uses the forum as a substitute for a social life.

I like you because you're not as woo-woo as most people around here and so I guess I agree with a lot of stuff you say. And I like your attitude.

You're one of the people though who I basically pity because it seems like you post too much and should be out there enjoying life - instead of trying to connect with people over the internet which is a lame substitute.

[Angelique]

Hmmm...I doubt there'll be any feedback about me since I'm relatively new. But I'm game to be critiqued. This thread should be interesting.

[Angelique]

Originally Posted by yossarian

It just occurred to me: what I'm really asking people to do is to make personal attacks. An environment where personal attacks are outlawed seems flawed to me. It seems, essentially, fake and broken and dysfunctional. I consider personal attacks to be an integral part of what brings people together. Every non-fake environment has some form of acceptable personal attack.

So far I'm really the only one making personal attacks. We need more people to make some personal attacks.

MidasGirl made a slight personal attack too but she always does that.

So basically, in this thread so far, everyone has acted the same way they normally act.

The only difference is the mods haven't deleted my posts and sent me threatening PMs yet. (They may still do that... )

Attack is kind of a strong word for something that is being welcomed, isn't it?

[James81]

Originally Posted by yossarian

My interpretation of you is that you're a married lonely guy who uses the forum as a substitute for a social life.

I like you because you're not as woo-woo as most people around here and so I guess I agree with a lot of stuff you say. And I like your attitude.

You're one of the people though who I basically pity because it seems like you post too much and should be out there enjoying life - instead of trying to connect with people over the internet which is a lame substitute.

Heh, I'll take that.

Most of my posts come from work though. So replace "lonely married guy" with "guy who despises his day job" and you've pretty much got it.

I'm actually fairly happy with my social life (which has budded quite a bit in the past year), but I DO wanna go a bit further with it.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Angelique

Attack is kind of a strong word for something that is being welcomed, isn't it?

The reason I use the phrase "Personal Attack" is because that is the phrase the moderators use.

They consider any comment on a person which is not obviously positive to be a personal attack, and delete those comments, and ban people who make them.

So in the context of this forum, and this thread, it just kind of dawned on me that all I'm trying to do is create a place where personal attacks are ok.

At the same time, I'm now realizing that anyone who is comfortable with making personal attacks has probably already been banned. The only reason I don't get banned for my personal attacks is because I don't put emotion into them. Anyone who posts in a negative way with strong emotion is usually instantly banned, making this forum a honeypot for emotional wrecks who hide all negativity.

The personal attack rule may make sense for other sub-forums. But for social & relationships, I think personal attacks probably offer the best growth opportunities by far. All this fake self-esteem promotion people do where they only say good things about each other and go to extreme lengths to find something nice to say... how can this fakeness do anything other plan plaster over the truth?

There are even posters on this forum who obviously and constantly admit that they only say the good stuff. They'll give someone a compliment and then say, "I only say the good stuff. I work hard to find 1 nice thing to say."

Anyway I guess I just value truth and authenticity and genuineness and honesty over having a fake sugar-coated environment where there are no personal attacks.

[Angelique]

Originally Posted by yossarian

The reason I use the phrase "Personal Attack" is because that is the phrase the moderators use.

They consider any comment on a person which is not obviously positive to be a personal attack, and delete those comments, and ban people who make them.

So in the context of this forum, and this thread, it just kind of dawned on me that all I'm trying to do is create a place where personal attacks are ok.

At the same time, I'm now realizing that anyone who is comfortable with making personal attacks has probably already been banned. The only reason I don't get banned for my personal attacks is because I don't put emotion into them. Anyone who posts in a negative way with strong emotion is usually instantly banned, making this forum a honeypot for emotional wrecks who hide all negativity.

The personal attack rule may make sense for other sub-forums. But for social & relationships, I think personal attacks probably offer the best growth opportunities by far. All this fake self-esteem promotion people do where they only say good things about each other and go to extreme lengths to find something nice to say... how can this fakeness do anything other plan plaster over the truth?

There are even posters on this forum who obviously and constantly admit that they only say the good stuff. They'll give someone a compliment and then say, "I only say the good stuff. I work hard to find 1 nice thing to say."

Anyway I guess I just value truth and authenticity and genuineness and honesty over having a fake sugar-coated environment where there are no personal attacks.

I see what you mean. Makes sense to want the truth about yourself and others' truths as well. Do you believe brutal honesty is the way to go all the time?

[Elrond]

"personal attacks" would be nice.

It's understandable to criminalize 'personal attacks' if you only want a forum of purely rational and sterilized debate. But you know what, that's not the case in any of these sub-forums. However, people still have a lot of freedom to communicate with a wide range of tempermants and personalities. And to outright make personal attacks legal wouldn't necessarily make things great. So to have certain bastions where 'personal attacks' is A-OK is a great idea.

I visit another forum where you can have an intelligent discussion. You can also make the most juvenile ad hominems and noone will silence you. So there are forums for 'shooting the s''t'. I dunno if those would facilitate personal growth, though. ;D

Maybe just everything should be legal, and one can just ignore people that get too annoying (you can already do that, eh?). People don't pull any punches when it comes to personal attacks in real life. Sure not strangers, and on an internet forum one can feel more gutsy when it comes to telling people how they feel about them, even if they have hardly seen you post before. But maybe people just need to grow a thicker skin.


I once attacked someones IDEA by saying that it was stupid. Got deleted. Kindof ridicoulus IMO, but oh well.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Angelique

I see what you mean. Makes sense to want the truth about yourself and others' truths as well. Do you believe brutal honesty is the way to go all the time?

I think the most selfless, giving, compassionate thing you can do is give brutal honesty. Being honest is self-sacrificing because people dislike you for it at first.

I think the most selfish thing to do is to lie. You deceive people about what you think of them in order to get the reaction that you want from them.

By lying to people I get what I want out of them. By being honest I benefit them at my expense.

In my own life I grow the most when people are brutally honest. If the person is doing their job well, I get pissed, resentful, angry, withdrawn. I might even stop talking to them. But in the end I grow for it and am better off. They gave me the gift of honesty at their own expense because I punished them for being honest.

The way I'm thinking right now, ya, I think if everyone was brutally honest with each other in general everyone would be better off. Elephants in the room help who? Secrets help who?

The people that are the harshest towards me end up being my closest friends.

The psychopaths who lie and who pretend everything is positive can manipulate me and exploit me in the short-term but eventually they are found out and the relationship ends.

[James81]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I think the most selfless, giving, compassionate thing you can do is give brutal honesty. Being honest is self-sacrificing because people dislike you for it at first.

I think the most selfish thing to do is to lie. You deceive people about what you think of them in order to get the reaction that you want from them.

By lying to people I get what I want out of them. By being honest I benefit them at my expense.

In my own life I grow the most when people are brutally honest. If the person is doing their job well, I get pissed, resentful, angry, withdrawn. I might even stop talking to them. But in the end I grow for it and am better off. They gave me the gift of honesty at their own expense because I punished them for being honest.

The way I'm thinking right now, ya, I think if everyone was brutally honest with each other in general everyone would be better off. Elephants in the room help who? Secrets help who?

The people that are the harshest towards me end up being my closest friends.

The psychopaths who lie and who pretend everything is positive can manipulate me and exploit me in the short-term but eventually they are found out and the relationship ends.

While I appreciate a good, brutal blunt bit o' honesty, I really don't think most people come to message boards seeking advice (even if they ask for it). Wanna know how I know this? Take a look around at the threads and pay attention to how many people actually TAKE the advice given to them.

I think people just want to be heard. They want to share what's inside of them and feel like someone else is listening to them.

Don't get me wrong, though, there's a time and a place for the "tough love" kind of ♥♥♥♥. But there are some people who really KNOW what they are talking about (you and themaster come to mind), but I don't think you're really reaching the people you are trying to help because you guys tend to just preach at them without really understanding where the person is coming from.

I say that because, well, I've been guilty of this myself. To a fault actually. But it's something I'm working on.

[MidasGirl]

Yossarian,

I think you like pushing buttons for the heck of it – not in a trollish way, but more to see if you will further your human behavior education. I don’t think you personally believe half the stuff you post(the annoying stuff), but you write it anyway to incite people into engaging you so that you can then use it in your offline debates.

You probably sit back and laugh your ass off after you tick people off.

You are most likely naturally a sweet guy who could settle down and love some cute girl but you’re too scared of your own shadow to commit to a relationship. I think you have a lot to give in terms of romance and opening up to a mate – but your childhood demons keep you from living your full potential.

You strike me as very emotionally intelligent, but you are too scared to fully embrace your feminine side as you would rather act as the tough guy that nobody could ever hurt.

Potentially, you will likely be a very successful guy as you hit your prime years, and you very likely believe that financial success will be the only way to prove your worth to a woman.

I guess I’d put you in the category of ‘annoying but could be adorable’.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Yossarian,

I think you like pushing buttons for the heck of it – not in a trollish way, but more to see if you will further your human behavior education. I don’t think you personally believe half the stuff you post(the annoying stuff), but you write it anyway to incite people into engaging you so that you can then use it in your offline debates.

You probably sit back and laugh your ass off after you tick people off.

You are most likely naturally a sweet guy who could settle down and love some cute girl but you’re too scared of your own shadow to commit to a relationship. I think you have a lot to give in terms of romance and opening up to a mate – but your childhood demons keep you from living your full potential.

You strike me as very emotionally intelligent, but you are too scared to fully embrace your feminine side as you would rather act as the tough guy that nobody could ever hurt.

Potentially, you will likely be a very successful guy as you hit your prime years, and you very likely believe that financial success will be the only way to prove your worth to a woman.

I guess I’d put you in the category of ‘annoying but could be adorable’.

When it comes to settling down I am definitely scared of commitment and traumatized by the failed relationships I've seen. Parents, aunts and uncles, friends, the list goes on. Endless failed relationships. I've met so many men and women from bad marriages.

Since I was a little kid I got the idea into my head that by studying old people I could learn the best way to live.

My direct study of old people who I meet - the boomer generation, the greatest generation, and gen X - has taught me that relationships are the most challenging aspect of happiness.

Wealth is easy. Health is easy. For both of these you just apply the formula, follow the rules. But to have happy relationships and to be genuinely happy - that is hard. So that is my interest.

I've seen so many failed marriages. Endless variations on the failed marriage. The failed marriage where the wife leaves the husband penniless and destitute through alimony and child support - the women are usually genuinely nice women - not bitches by any means. Not bad people. Sweethearts even. You talk to them and they have these stories they tell over and over to justify their behaviour and demonize their ex-husbands. They are nice people. Pleasant, lovable. They show me pictures of them as little girls. They look just like the girls I know my age. Adorable and sweet and kind. I can't trust any of it because I've seen what these girls grow up to be.

Still adorable, still sweet, still kind, except towards their ex-husbands who they rape to the full extent of the law. The ex-husbands are taken away from their kids which utterly breaks their hearts. I could not handle that. They are put into a state of economic servitude where they're sometimes ordered to pay more money than they can actually make just depending on the specific circumstances of their work-life. Depending on how good their ex-wifes lawyer is.

The divorce industry teaches the women to tell these stories. Over and over. These are nice, normal women - nice people. But they are encouraged to demonize their husbands.

Anyway, ****ing yes, you are absolutely right, I have massive trust issues when it comes to long-term relationships and the origin of this, IMO, is my study of old people.

Some sweet adorable girl acts all seductively to me today and all I can think is, "You're adorable and I love you. But how many years of hardship would it take before you learn to demonize me? Which faults of mine would you latch onto and use as justification to every person you meet as part of a stock story about why it's okay that you receive $6000/month from your ex-husband while he rarely gets to see his kids who you have poisoned against him by brainwashing them about how evil he is?"

Trust issues. Yep.

As far as me not being sincere on this forum... I am sincere but if I test ideas it's not because I want a laugh, it's because I want to test them. I don't do stuff just for a reaction. I don't say stuff I don't mean. When it's an idea I'm not confident in I will say "I tend to think" or use other words that indicate I'm not very confident in it.

And there are lots of times where people change my mind on this forum by making good arguments. Not usually a 180 degree turn but they'll change my mind by a few degrees occasionally.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

You are most likely naturally a sweet guy who could settle down and love some cute girl but you’re too scared of your own shadow to commit to a relationship.

I would just like to make a general comment that I find the "afraid of commitment" meme funny.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by James81

While I appreciate a good, brutal blunt bit o' honesty, I really don't think most people come to message boards seeking advice (even if they ask for it). Wanna know how I know this? Take a look around at the threads and pay attention to how many people actually TAKE the advice given to them.

I think people just want to be heard. They want to share what's inside of them and feel like someone else is listening to them.

Don't get me wrong, though, there's a time and a place for the "tough love" kind of ♥♥♥♥. But there are some people who really KNOW what they are talking about (you and themaster come to mind), but I don't think you're really reaching the people you are trying to help because you guys tend to just preach at them without really understanding where the person is coming from.

I say that because, well, I've been guilty of this myself. To a fault actually. But it's something I'm working on.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for that.

I'm not trying to help people anymore. Now I'm just trying to help myself. Helping others sometimes helps me. But I gave up trying to help people a long time ago.

Those who want help from me will get it without me trying to give it to them. They'll come to me and draw it out of me. It's weird actually.. I have lots of little proteges who seem to sniff me out and absorb all the stuff I've learned - usually in some particular area of their interest. But it's not through my volition at all. They do all the work. I just be myself. If someone asks me a question I love to answer because it's fun and I learn a lot from people's questions. But I don't do it to try and help anyone - not anymore.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Elrond

I would just like to make a general comment that I find the "afraid of commitment" meme funny.

How so?