Women love bad guys?

[Ding]

There's a Chinese saying which goes, '男人不坏，女人不爱'. In English it means something like, 'If a guy isn't bad, women will not love him'. How true is this?

[bellbird]

Haha. Interesting point. I think there was a thread about this not too long ago. Basically it was discussed why females are attracted to 'alpha' males etc etc. There's also a study being done about it (couldn't tell you straight off where to find it) and it stated that actually woman would have affairs or flings with alpha males but would prefer the more solid stable ones for a partner as they would not dash off and leave them with the kids etc!
Anyway: let's just say I have been in a position to choose between the two and boy am I happy I chose to be with a wise,solid,sensitive,humurous, loving and strong man. No yapping alpha males for me thank you Don't go there, too much hassle and too many issues. I think I'd rather be by myself to be honest if there were no balanced sweet ones to go around

[mattsonn]

Deviance, along with a lot of other things, is something that people naturally respond well to. It's just a fact of life, I guess.

[Create]

I always thought, being a female, that attraction to "bad boys" can be justified by other reasons than the alpha male. I do not contest the alpha theory though!

At the beginning of my dating life, I was attracted to "bad boys" for unhealthy reasons - needing to be controled, low self esteem, needing to "live" obsessional and passional impulses I had a the time, rebellion from family-drawn conservative values and the like.

Now that I consider myself healthy ( I do my very best to always work towards things that will make me grow and not self-destruct) , I have other reasons :
-the need to grow, exactly, however extreme it may be, can be fufilled by walking with a bad boy into "trouble" or just plain different experiences.
-the comfort zone is way dull for many women, whether they admit it consciously or not
-and who doesn't love a psychological and emotional challenge? Bad boys aren't necessarily immature or dangerous, they can just be "out there" enough so that the process of becoming involved with one is unpredictable, thus more adaptation is needed. I read from many reliable sources that in order for the brain to perform "neurogenesis" (accept it, the brain does grow through life!) it needs to be introduced to new situations and to adapt.

This psychological challenge creates a desirable physiological effect : depression symptoms can be alleviated, brain growth is triggered, neurotransmittors flourish ect ect.

I beleive that!

[mattsonn]

Hey if nothing else, nice guys will make better fathers...as long as he isn't too nice

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Create

Now that I consider myself healthy ( I do my very best to always work towards things that will make me grow and not self-destruct) , I have other reasons :
-the need to grow, exactly, however extreme it may be, can be fufilled by walking with a bad boy into "trouble" or just plain different experiences.
-the comfort zone is way dull for many women, whether they admit it consciously or not
-and who doesn't love a psychological and emotional challenge? Bad boys aren't necessarily immature or dangerous, they can just be "out there" enough so that the process of becoming involved with one is unpredictable, thus more adaptation is needed. I read from many reliable sources that in order for the brain to perform "neurogenesis" (accept it, the brain does grow through life!) it needs to be introduced to new situations and to adapt.

This psychological challenge creates a desirable physiological effect : depression symptoms can be alleviated, brain growth is triggered, neurotransmittors flourish ect ect.

This supports what I've been hearing, reading, noticing in others, and experiencing. Here's a summary of what I've learnt over the past few years. 'Bad boys' typically have most of the attributes women look for in men, attributes which are either completely missing or not so obvious in 'Nice guys', and for the sake of those positive attributes the negative often get ignored.

Variety, unpredictability; While women do like a guy who makes them feel safe, they get bored with a guy who always says and does the same things. That doesn't mean we have to be crazy, but if women can't figure out what's going on in a guy's head, then they're likely to be more attracted to him than otherwise. A balanced guy will seem unpredictable because he'll be willing to try out all options; something different to last time, and different to the norm.

Confidence; 'Bad guys' may be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but they're confident ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. No-one is impressed by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, or what they want, or who constantly asks for someone else's opinion before making a decision (or worse, doesn't make any decisions at all). A balanced guy will take his partner's opinion into consideration, but will know when he doesn't need to ask for it, and will confidently make firm decisions.

Safety; Women like a man who makes them feel safe. Even now when women are much more empowered, they still love a man who makes them feel looked after, protected. Even while they say they can look after themselves, and prove they're capable of doing so, every single confident, capable, independent woman I've spoken to about this has said that they love being with a guy who makes them feel safe. That doesn't mean they're dependent on him, but happy to know he's there when they need him. 'Bad guys' inspire this feeling through sheer toughness. 'Nice guys' come across as weak. A balanced guy would be strong (not necessarily physically), confident, nurturing, compassionate, but not arrogant or aggressive.

Humour; Everyone enjoys the company of someone who makes them laugh. At least with this one bad, nice, or balanced guys are generally equal. But the bad boys are louder and therefore heard more often.

Guys have to be bad to get the girls? Total BS. I don't believe women really want a 'bad boy'. I believe they want a man with the positive attributes of a bad boy, and are willing to take the whole bad boy because as unsavory as their negative attributes are, they're exciting, something which 'nice guys' are not.

[Erock]

Actually Steve's blog on polarization made me think about how it relates to relationships. I'd say women are attracted to men who have the greatest power over the world, and that can be either "jerks" (or guys that are selfish and competitive by nature-the fear based polarity) or confident lovers (not the nice guy wimps but men that truly want to give women love and are not ashamed of it-quite rare I think)

The problem is that most men are nice guy wimps and they are powerless compared to polarized individuals. Jerks are much more prominent then confident lovers because I think men are taught to be power hungry, whereas confident lovers give up their power completely, saying "whether or not you like me, I want to love you." The nice guy wimps try to maintain some power, but also give away some power (very unpolarized and ultimately powerless)

Not sure if this makes any sense, but I'm just rambling here
Erock

[sadavis00]

Well, in college I have not experienced this. I consider myself a nice guy, and most of friends are considered "nice guys" but none of us has ever felt like women are preferring "bad guys" over us. I may not get girls heads turning, but if I like a girl, and I talk to her, we often hit it off. Comparing myself to some pretty rude guys who also manage to attract girls, I feel that girls like them more for their physical looks (they tend to be a bit better looking in generally) than their "bad guy" image. I may be completely off, but that has generally been my impression.

[Dani]

I did an experiment on this when I was working a bar for a few months.

To half of the female custoemrs I was polite and friendly and nice guy-ish.

To the other half I was an outright jerk.

The result?

End of the night, the girls I was nice to would, without fail, say good night and leave.

The girls I treated like dirt however, would also almost without fail (about 95%) come up and either give me their phone number or ask for mine.

Before I did that test I used to be a 'nice guy' and my luck with girls was o.k. at best. But after it and tweaking my nice/jerk levels it has gone waaaaay up to the point that I am now selective on who I date, rather than being eager to date whoever would have me as I was earlier.

Becoming a jerk put me pretty much totally in control of my love life.

(however it may be tempered somewhat by the fact that I am still kinda a nice guy at heart. Not abusive, I am supportive of my partner, not cheating etc.)

[sadavis00]

when you mean being a "jerk", do you just teasing as along lines "well, you are O.K but I am god", or something more sinister? Because I think you are still a nice guy if you are teasing/flirting aggressive, with good-natured body language. I personally don't see why women will prefer a real jerk over a real nice guy, if they are similar in other respects.

[ethereal]

Wow. This is something I've been thinking about for a long long time

Not much personal experience to go on, but I also want to hear more about why this is true (or not). Is it something psychological? Is it our animal instincts? Is it social conditioning?

I think there is something bigger in play here, and not just the "jerk" factor. Seems like more of a correlation thing than a causation thing. All the theories I've heard so far, I feel, only explain a part of it and not the whole.

Lol, the grand unified theory / holy grail of attraction and dating

[Shaden]

I don't think anyone should be a jerk for the sake of pulling a girl. That seems like selling your soul down the river to me. I'd rather be myself from the start, that way whomever I attract won't get any nasty surprises down the road.

[ethereal]

I think it's a phase people go through.

1st stage: nice guy
2nd stage: alpha male / jerk
3rd stage: accepting and being yourself

I'm just confused why 2nd stage seems to be more "successful" (according to some people) than 3rd. Perhaps it's social conditioning; girls are not being attracted by the actual you, but by the image of you that you project in their minds.

Man, I don't get it

[Erki]

It owuld be good if someone gave some examples for nice guy, bad guy and the pefect guy. i.e. is bad guy someone like Bart Simpson?

I think I should go and watch a bit of Star Wars...

[Transcendent]

This whole thing is so burned into the brains of people and it makes it hard for people to see what's really happening.

Girls aren't attracted to jerks, it is the confidence that they have and their status. I'll explain a little later.

When people say girls don't like nice guys, that's not really the case. A nice guy usually turns into something else when it comes to attracting or getting a girl they like. They turn into.... Superwimp! They think that if they're super nice and do everything for a girl and give her flowers and all that stuff then she will have to like you. The nice guy isn't actually being a nice guy anymore, he's being a wussy. Always seeking approval and having the need to please is the opposite of confidence. The need to please gives you lower status. Now about status.

Status doesn't mean being captain of the football team or being a ceo of a company, it's just status in relation to the girl. If you assert yourself and are confident to a girl, then that makes you higher status than her, and that's what they want. If you seek approval from the girl, you make your status lower than her and become a lapdog.


I know the reason guys turn into wimps when they meet a girl they really like. The situation seems so important that it really messes with your head. You start thinking, you like this girl so much, she's so pretty, she's really cool and fun, you just have to make this work. THIS is the girl of your dreams and you can't blow it. The need to please and get approval kicks in because you think if you do anything she doesn't like it will make her mad at you and you blew the chance of a lifetime.

It seems really complicated but after you learn first hand how it works, it's actually quite simple.

Lastly, I'm not saying to change the person you are. If you are a nice guy, don't turn into a "jerk" to try to get a girl. I'm saying, just don't turn from a nice guy into a wimp, because that's not who you are to begin with. And if you are a confident and nice guy and a girl doesn't like you, then you shouldn't waste your time with them anyway.

[zpivat]

What about this?

Answers to Why Single Women Are Attracted to Jerks

[dingybobstuart]

Originally Posted by Transcendent

This whole thing is so burned into the brains of people and it makes it hard for people to see what's really happening.

Girls aren't attracted to jerks, it is the confidence that they have and their status. I'll explain a little later.

When people say girls don't like nice guys, that's not really the case. A nice guy usually turns into something else when it comes to attracting or getting a girl they like. They turn into.... Superwimp! They think that if they're super nice and do everything for a girl and give her flowers and all that stuff then she will have to like you. The nice guy isn't actually being a nice guy anymore, he's being a wussy. Always seeking approval and having the need to please is the opposite of confidence. The need to please gives you lower status. Now about status.

Status doesn't mean being captain of the football team or being a ceo of a company, it's just status in relation to the girl. If you assert yourself and are confident to a girl, then that makes you higher status than her, and that's what they want. If you seek approval from the girl, you make your status lower than her and become a lapdog.


I know the reason guys turn into wimps when they meet a girl they really like. The situation seems so important that it really messes with your head. You start thinking, you like this girl so much, she's so pretty, she's really cool and fun, you just have to make this work. THIS is the girl of your dreams and you can't blow it. The need to please and get approval kicks in because you think if you do anything she doesn't like it will make her mad at you and you blew the chance of a lifetime.

It seems really complicated but after you learn first hand how it works, it's actually quite simple.

Lastly, I'm not saying to change the person you are. If you are a nice guy, don't turn into a "jerk" to try to get a girl. I'm saying, just don't turn from a nice guy into a wimp, because that's not who you are to begin with. And if you are a confident and nice guy and a girl doesn't like you, then you shouldn't waste your time with them anyway.

Does this forum have a reputation system?
Coz id like to give some rep points to this guy.

Nice post

Mark

[mtrimpe]

I know that what I want isn't someone of higher status or lower status ....

I want a fight over status! I want someone with whom I can battle for being the better one. Someone who will continously push me to higher and higher levels. I want a *friendly* but intense competition over who can be the best person.

[Lychee]

As Transcendent said, women are attracted to confidence. But being obnoxious and arrogant is often confused with being confident. What women want is strength in a man. Women see these "jerks" who are strong, but also callous and still go out with them. Some condone the callousness, thinking that being strong is compensates for that behavior.

Being nice is excellent. But some men lose confidence in themselves when it comes to women or other matters in life. If they turn insecure when it comes to women, how would they act if a serious life situation occurred? The thing is to balance kindness and strength. No one likes a jerk, but being wimpy isn't exactly an attractive thing.

[Dani]

Originally Posted by Shaden

I don't think anyone should be a jerk for the sake of pulling a girl. That seems like selling your soul down the river to me. I'd rather be myself from the start, that way whomever I attract won't get any nasty surprises down the road.

Depends what you mean by 'pull a girl'.

I am now in control of my dating life, and as a result I am not dating...

I am confident in myself now (as Mark pointed out that really is the key) so I am looking for an equally confident and challenging girl to compliment me.

I really don't like the 'be myself' argument. That is often an excuse from people afraid to improve themselves in anyway.

'Yourself' is always changing whether you want to or not. Every day you learn new things that either help you grow or make you wither. If you don't have a target to grow into, then the people around you will pick the type of person you grow into for you by influencing you subconsciously.

If you want to find a better partner, or ideal partner, you will need to change to become the perfect match for them. Otherwise you will only ever attract a partner who compliments how you are now.

If you actively and consciously take part in shaping your own personality and habits into what you want to be like, you don't change who 'you are' you improve who 'you are'.

Good post btw Transcedent.

[ScottLee]

Tango: Bad News Boys

[bellbird]

In several posts nice guys have been discussed along the side of wimpy ones. How about meeting a great and 'nice' bloke who is not wimpy? Probably self confidence is the thing along with speaking his mind. That means that the girl in question might not always like his opinions but heck it beats vague wimpy stuff anyday. I find -from memory- that when I started dating that it was a total different ballgame then when I hit my twenties and 'grew up'. I mean when you're 17 it's likely more to do with exploring and touchy feely stuff and when you get older it would be nice if the guy actually has a personality ?

If you want to find a better partner, or ideal partner, you will need to change to become the perfect match for them. Otherwise you will only ever attract a partner who compliments how you are now.

If you actively and consciously take part in shaping your own personality and habits into what you want to be like, you don't change who 'you are' you improve who 'you are'.

Interesting. Yes, we are definitely not the same person we were 15 years ago (jeez time flies ) and therefor our experiences will be different in contacting mates from when we are young up to when we are older. Probably it will change our view as well on 'ideal' guys (or girls) and naturally how we view ourselves.

[Patricia]

I agree with those who said that confidence is the key.

Originally Posted by Lychee

As Transcendent said, women are attracted to confidence. But being obnoxious and arrogant is often confused with being confident. What women want is strength in a man.

That is also true. All of it. I for one keep arrogant and obnoxious men away from me no matter how confident they seem. It's actually a turn-off. A man that is confident AND nice is the ideal package, at least in my perspective.

And also, I think confidence takes different forms and is perceived differently by women. I remember reading a true story once about this girl who was in college and on her first day in a new class she noticed this very ugly, apparently shy and reserved guy in glasses, getting lots of attention from lots of women in that class, including the "alpha females" - while the good looking guys and "bad boys" were being completely ignored. For a period of several days she observed the same thing happening over and over. She overheard girls talking about him and, not having talked to him yet, couldn't understand why, against all odds, this particular guy, who she didn't feel attracted to AT ALL, seemed to attract all the ladies so much. Well, to make a long story short, she ended up talking to him and as it turned out he was indeed a little shy and reserved, but was extremely confident and this confidence only showed when he started talking to people. He treated everyone nicely, especially the girls (far from being a jerk), this guy was the complete opposite of the bad boy stereotype (physically and otherwise), but still had women head over heels and fighting over him no matter where he went. I remember her saying that after 5 minutes talking to this guy she felt extremely attracted to him and it all made sense. He was described as very smart and funny, a gentleman, but what was really attracting these girls was his confidence, which is what was underneath all that.

I do believe (and this is something I realized not so long ago, and was REALLY surprised when I did, because all my life I thought this didn't really matter to me) that women really do want strength in a man and want to feel they CAN protect her, even if they don't need protection and are independent. I think this is something that is deeply rooted in our instincts and appears in the form of attraction. It doesn't matter whether we need protection or not, that's really not the point, women need to know it's available to them. And a man who isn't confident, comes across as weak and, therefore, incapable of providing protection. I know this goes back to the logic of the alpha male, but not quite. It's not the alpha male or the bad boy stereotype that counts, in my opinion, it's really about the confidence, no matter what stereotype you fall under. Why some women put up with obnoxious and arrogant men is beyond my comprehension, like I said, confident and nice is the ideal package for me. Sure, jerks can be perceived as confident, but while this might get you dates, being a jerk will not bring you a quality relationship, this might attract women at first but won't keep them there. Unless they are prone to getting into somewhat abusive relationships, but that's a different story. Ultimately, women looking for a relationship don't want to be treated poorly. ESPECIALLY if you're looking for a long term relationship with a woman who is also confident. A confident woman with healthy self-esteem will never put up with a jerk in a long-term relationship because she knows she deserves much better - and knows she can have it. She might sleep with you, but she won't want you to be the father of her babies.

So, the best advice I can give to the curious "males" reading this is work on your confidence, this will get you at least half way through.

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by dingybobstuart

Does this forum have a reputation system?
Coz id like to give some rep points to this guy.

Nice post

Mark

Yes, its got a reputation system: just look at the top right of every post, there you see a warning sign to report abuse, and left of the warning sign is a scale to give reputation points for the post.

Love you!

[Velvet]

Yeah, I wanna add to the chorus of gals who are saying it's not jerkiness but confidence that attracts (healthy, beautiful) women.

My current beau is one of the kindest, most compassionate guys I've known, but he is also charismatic, intelligent, sparkling, well-respected amongst his peers, and he makes me feel both cherished and safe. No lap dog, he.

[radeldudel]

Change 'nice guy' for 'predictable and boring guy'.

Change 'bad guy' for 'unpredictable and exciting guy'.

Same for girls, by the way. I'm not interested in a 'nice girl', I found myself an exciting girl. A girl with confidence, a live, temper, heart, goal for herself. Still she is good-hearted, compassionate, lovely.

Not someone who just will nod to everything I say.

Love you!
--
btw, could one see polarity in this? If you are love-driven you'll look for a exciting partner, if you are fear-driven you'll look for a nice partner since he/she is easier to control?

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by radeldudel

btw, could one see polarity in this? If you are love-driven you'll look for a exciting partner, if you are fear-driven you'll look for a nice partner since he/she is easier to control?

Just a quick guess here, but I think if you're love-driven you'll focus on what you bring to the relationship and if you're fear-driven, on what you can get from it.

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Patricia

Just a quick guess here, but I think if you're love-driven you'll focus on what you bring to the relationship and if you're fear-driven, on what you can get from it.

Yes, that sounds better than my first guess!

Love you!

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by radeldudel

Change 'nice guy' for 'predictable and boring guy'.

Change 'bad guy' for 'unpredictable and exciting guy'.

My take on this dichotomy:

I think the "nice guy" that women don't like is the guy who has an agenda and covers it up by bending over backwards to please--not out of genuine kindness, but because he wants something (e.g., to get laid, but doesn't have the skills). It's manipulative, disingenuous, and weak.

And "bad" guys are actually kind of predictable...and thus ultimately boring.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Velvet

I think the "nice guy" that women don't like is the guy who has an agenda and covers it up by bending over backwards to please--not out of genuine kindness, but because he wants something (e.g., to get laid, but doesn't have the skills). It's manipulative, disingenuous, and weak.

right, right, right!! I so agree.