Women love bad guys?

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Velvet

I think the "nice guy" that women don't like is the guy who has an agenda and covers it up by bending over backwards to please--not out of genuine kindness, but because he wants something (e.g., to get laid, but doesn't have the skills). It's manipulative, disingenuous, and weak.

Indeed. There's also the "nice guy" who thinks that the way to impress a woman is through roses and flowers and chivalry, always asking for her opinion, always being there for her, and generally catering to her every whim. Nothing intentionally manipulative about it, he just thinks that's the way he's supposed to behave. Too many romances, not enough Bond

There's also the genuinely nice guy who women may mistake for Velvet's "nice guy". He'll do all the same things, but out of true kindness; he has no agenda, he's happy with wherever the relationship goes. Getting laid would be nice, but if it doesn't happen, he's fine with that.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

There's also the genuinely nice guy who women may mistake for Velvet's "nice guy". He'll do all the same things, but out of true kindness; he has no agenda, he's happy with wherever the relationship goes. Getting laid would be nice, but if it doesn't happen, he's fine with that.

That sounds like a Cool Guy, relaxing and fun to be around. A "nice guy" isn't relaxing and fun to be around; a woman can smell neediness or manipulation or hidden timebomb and will say, "he's a Nice Guy, but...." I think sometimes the timebomb is "Why won't women have sex with me? I'm such a Nice Guy!" -- which is something the Cool Guy you describe above would never ask.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by Angela

That sounds like a Cool Guy, relaxing and fun to be around. A "nice guy" isn't relaxing and fun to be around; a woman can smell neediness or manipulation or hidden timebomb and will say, "he's a Nice Guy, but...." I think sometimes the timebomb is "Why won't women have sex with me? I'm such a Nice Guy!" -- which is something the Cool Guy you describe above would never ask.

That's funny--I was going to say pretty much the exact same thing, but I deemed this other guy the Good Guy. And you can absolutely tell the difference between the faux Nice Guy and the Good Guy. You can tell when someone has integrity.

Flowers? Romance? Nothin' wimpy about any of that! I love all that stuff.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Flowers? Romance? Nothin' wimpy about any of that! I love all that stuff.

Yeah, but Cool Guy/Good Guy would never use flowers and romance to cover up stuff like: need for control, lack of imagination, sex addiction, fear of intimacy. Nice Guy might.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Angela

..."Why won't women have sex with me? I'm such a Nice Guy!" -- which is something the Cool Guy you describe above would never ask.

Right, I'd add that if Cool Guy/Good Guy wanted to have sex, he would show his interest in a way that builds attraction, ensuring that the woman also wants to have sex with him. And if it didn't work, if she wasn't attracted, then he go find someone else. If there was still a connection with the un-attracted woman, he'd be happy with being friends.

Originally Posted by Velvet

That's funny--I was going to say pretty much the exact same thing, but I deemed this other guy the Good Guy. And you can absolutely tell the difference between the faux Nice Guy and the Good Guy. You can tell when someone has integrity.

It's great that you can tell, though judging by the number of women who go for Bad Guys, Bad Guys who also lack integrity, I'd say not all women can tell the difference.

Or that being able to tell doesn't mean that they don't decide to go for Bad Guy/Nice Guy anyway. Just as some women will go for the Bad Guy because he's exciting (initially), some women will go for the Nice Guy because she can take advantage of him (until he breaks or grows a backbone).

Originally Posted by Angela

Yeah, but Cool Guy/Good Guy would never use flowers and romance to cover up stuff like: need for control, lack of imagination, sex addiction, fear of intimacy. Nice Guy might.

Indeed. So what happens when Good Guy gives a woman some flowers, soon after she's broken up with a Nice Guy whose neediness drove her away? She'd probably see him as another Nice Guy, but she'd either give herself enough of a chance to see it for the honest gesture it is, or she'd be too unaware to tell the difference, and miss her chance when he moved on...

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

So what happens when Good Guy gives a woman some flowers, soon after she's broken up with a Nice Guy whose neediness drove her away? She'd probably see him as another Nice Guy, but she'd either give herself enough of a chance to see it for the honest gesture it is, or she'd be too unaware to tell the difference, and miss her chance when he moved on...

That sounds about right.

The flowers thing is a bit academic, as I don't think I personally have ever been given flowers on a date before.

I have been given many mix CDs, though, which is more appropriate, as I am a music geek.

OK, now I'm just rambling...I hope the OP feels that his question was answered.

[qiflow]

Just want to add my experience. I agree, confidence is the key. Women want someone with a backbone.

What has helped me the most with dealing with women is the following: be completely detached from results. Guys get so nervous because they are thinking, Oh My God, what if I say the wrong thing? What if she doesn't like me? If you are honestly not worried about the result, you are free to be yourself. Why would you want to be with someone who you can't be yourself with or who doesn't like the real you? Guys are already thinking about marriage and kids when they meet a girl for the first time. Slow down! You don't even know if you like the girl yet as a friend!

One of the ways of cultivating this detachment that has worked well for me is think of new girls you meet (even if they are gorgeous), as just friends or potential friends. If you treat them like a regular person instead of a goddess, they will see that you are not intimidated by them. This may sound bland, but it is actually more fun than worrying about relationships all the time. You can tease them (important), and be yourself without worrying too much. Besides, friendship is something that you need for a successful relationship anyway. Remember, we are all human beings - beautiful women poop just like everyone else. Paradoxically, not trying to get with someone is actually attractive, especially if you are just a cool person to be around. It shows that you are not needy. Like someone already said: women can smell ulterior motives. It is OK to want relationships, sex, etc, but enjoying life is more important than relationships or sex.

When you go out to meet new people, do not think about how successful you are going to be with them. Think: I am going to have as much fun as I can and learn about some new people.

Another important thing. I've read that 'Cocky/Funny' is attractive and I think it is. This is not the same thing as being a jerk. What you need to cultivate is the ability to tease girls and have FUN. Enjoy yourself. My suggestion is to find someone who is a good guy but is also good with women. Hang out with them. Model them. Try to duplicate their mindset. Watch how they talk to women, the flow of the conversations, how they use their tone of voice. Then think to yourself: do they seem worried about relationships? It will rub off on you more easily than you think. I have a friend who is very funny and good with women. It was really useful to me to duplicate that attitude. It is really all about having this attitude of enjoying life, and having fun, whoever you are with. Peace.

[Alvin]

Here's a question for all the ladies:

Who would you find sexier?

1) A good-looking man with low confidence,

OR

2) An average or below-average looking man with high confidence?

[Trina]

Women (generally speaking) are riddled with self esteem and confidence issues and look for someone who has the confidence they do not. Unfortunately, bad guys are usually the ones who have that machismo. As a woman gets older and gains confidence and self esteem, her needs for a mate change. When she grows up, so do her preferences in a partner. With maturity she realizes that being a bad ass in public is not what makes a man strong.

At least that's how I see it. Of course, different people have different circumstances.

[Malkovich]

To qiflow:

Great post! You have expressed incredibly well something I have been discovering intuitively during the last months: when it comes to women, don't try too hard and enjoy the ride :-)

Most 'pick-up' literature could be summarized in what you have said.

[sonbuenas]

In my observation girls are definitely attracted to macho guys who are supposedly "confident." I think it's sad and silly, because to me, the loud confrontational, jerky guys reek of low self esteem and issues of inadequacy. I am a very confident person but I think I get pegged in the "nice wimpy guy" category because I don't feel the need to "prove myself" to people, or defend myself from some meathead who is trying to boost his self esteem. Lust is not logical.

[Lychee]

This just came to mind, but generally speaking men are supposed to be the supporter and the woman the person supported.

I find that guys who are sensitive are attractive, but if it's too the point where their emotions cloud their judgment, it just makes him look weak. Women want a decisive MAN, a man who is in tune with his emotions, but doesn't cry over little things or is weak emotionally. Men are generally more left-brained and women are right-brained and this is a great balance.

[CoachChar]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Here's a question for all the ladies:

Who would you find sexier?

1) A good-looking man with low confidence,

OR

2) An average or below-average looking man with high confidence?

Alvin,

I definitely prefer the man with high confidence who is bringing lots of substance (intelligence, integrity, sense of humor, kindness, passion, vision, creativity, trustworthiness) to the relationship. In my world, looks and personal taste are fluid and they change over time.

Anyone who lacks confidence is going to be scared stiff by me because I'm a "little" quirky and I often wander away from life's well-traveled paths in pursuit of adventure personal development. I am grateful to have a sexy and confident husband who is equally committed to exploration, growth, and fun.

The delightful discovery and gift is that as we have grown and developed as individuals and as a couple, he's become more and more physically attractive to me. The paradox is that the more I learn about who he is at his essence, the less I can see of his physical appearance anyway.

Wayne Dyer says, "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change." I feel my husband was always handsome, but over the years he has has become even more beautiful to me in part because I continually see him with new eyes that are ever more admiring and appreciative.

So... Sometimes I "see" him and sometimes I don't. What matters is that I'm very into this man (after nearly 12 years of marriage) and his confidence is a major part of his appeal.

[Breakaway]

good post, qiflow.

Originally Posted by Trina

When she grows up, so do her preferences in a partner. With maturity she realizes that being a bad ass in public is not what makes a man strong.

What's interesting here is that women are the immature ones, and by the time they realized all the mistakes they have made, they are no longer as young and desirable as before.

I blame mostly the media and society in general for always portraying women in such an angelic light to brainwash an entire generation of guys who mostly think that women are morally superior.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Breakaway

What's interesting here is that women are the immature ones, and by the time they realized all the mistakes they have made, they are no longer as young and desirable as before.

Which really makes you wonder, did they "mature" or is it simply they have passed their prime and can no longer compete with younger women for attention of the "bad boys". Desperate nice guys on the other hand...

[SeanFu]

I've noticed that in my "bad boy" teen years I had a much easier time finding girls for a relationship, but when I entered my 20's and throughout it (I'm 29 atm) it has proven a little more difficult. I've also noticed that some of my friends who have remained somewhat.. bad boys.. seem to still be getting the girls.

So, from my point of view.. bad boys do get more girls. I've pretty much outgrown the whole bad boy image, yet I still retain some of my... well.. bad boy mojo, so to speak.

[Holistic Star]

Funny how in this post we seem to think women by and large have the same motivation, whereas we categorise men differently.

So we have identfied so far:

"Nice Man", I'm putting it in inverted commas because as velvet pointed out all that niceness has an agenda to get laid. Has low self-esteem. As in, "I'm so nice, I'm a friend to her and listen to all her problems and she still won't sleep with me!' Not so nice really! Feels bitter that the 'puffed up princesses' don't like him and fancy jerks instead.


Cool Man / Good Man, This is the guy that has done his PD whether he realises it or not. He has self-confidence in what he wants from life and is respectful to those around him. He doesn't see kindness as weakness and can be thoughtful and is fun to be around. He dates the cool women.

Jerk. Arrogant, callous out for one thing. His arrogance is mistaken for confidence. He either goes for the princess, or the vulnerable girl, both of which he messes around in different ways. The cool women don't touch him with a bargepole (although they do sometimes get suckered in by mistake, but then they get out asap!)


Women.

Vulnerable / insecure girl. Loads of personal problems. Uses the 'nice man' to listen to her problems as a friend, but won't ever sleep with him. Dates jerks because she thinks their arrogance is confidence. They break her heart so back to 'nice man' to complain about how all men are jerks etc.

Cool Women / Good Women. Same as Good Men, the confident, cool women who and know what they want from life. They don't mess men around and they don't allow themselves to be messed around either. They would rather be single, than with someone who made them miserable.

Puffed up Princess. Spends a lot of time shopping and infront of the mirror. Eats men for breakfast! The words 'High-maintenance' apply here!


So in conclusion - please don't assume all women want the same thing! I've split this into 3 very crude categories, but in reality there are as many different motivations as there are men and women!

[Cran]

I likebad guys... give me the choice between Luke Skywalker and his father, I'd take his father despite his looks

I didn't think very muh about my preferences so far, as the bad guys do only appear in theory (I prefer to be single at the time being). But I think it has much to do with not being content with a 0815-life, and perhaps even genetics: A "mean" guy would be more able to secure everything needed to get the children grown, wouldn't he?

Perhaps I should give my peronal definition of "bad guy" first, which I didn't think through, too *lol* but it amounts to something like intelligent, confident, mean, no regrets, devoted to his own means.
High confidence (real confidence, as pointed out before)is more attractive than good looks... for me.

[Erki]

What's "mean"?

[hopena]

*edited.

[hopena]

When people say girls don't like nice guys, that's not really the case. A nice guy usually turns into something else when it comes to attracting or getting a girl they like. They turn into.... Superwimp! They think that if they're super nice and do everything for a girl and give her flowers and all that stuff then she will have to like you. The nice guy isn't actually being a nice guy anymore, he's being a wussy. Always seeking approval and having the need to please is the opposite of confidence. The need to please gives you lower status. Now about status.

I've only received flowers from a guy once in my adult life - a single red rose. It made me happier than I thought something like that would. I wouldn't think a man a wuss if he bought me flowers.
Chivalry and romance are great, when there are genuine feelings behind them.

[jaamkie]

I agree with a lot of what's been said; but want to point out that confidence has to be backed up or it comes off as ridiculous arrogance. At least for me I'm attracted to men who are able to converse intelligently on subjects that I find interesting (here's where the women-are-diverse thing comes in...)- sometimes disagree with me reasonably enough to widen my view a bit, sometimes listen as I disagree with him, mature/open-minded enough to not argue a point to absurdity out of stubbornness, smart enough to understand what I'm talking about, and confident enough in his real knowledge to speak simply and kindly rather than trying to show-off or fake more knowledge than he has.

Also I think it is attractive when a man can be unconscious of himself/the situation and focus on me and our interaction rather than having part of his attention monitoring everything and tripping over himself. Even if a guy says some weird stuff, if he says it without either apology or arrogance I'm happy to give him a chance to explain the reasoning behind it; but if he's falling over himself to be too "nice" or saying things just to show-off then I'll be looking for an escape.