Official recognition of androgeny as neither sex.

[Gracestars]

A Scotland born Australian has became the first person in NSW to be officially recognised as physically and psychologically androgynous, with "sex not specified" being amended in offical documents, most importantly, in the birth certificate.

How's that for progress?!

Any thoughts? It's certainly one to wrap the brain around when getting down to gender debates. Neither male nor female, Norrie prefers 'zie', when referring to...ummm.. zie's gender.

Full article:

Norrie first registered transgender

EDIT: Any other countries doing this?

[Brutha]

A Scotland born Australian has became the first person in NSW to be officially recognised as physically and psychologically androgynous, with "sex not specified" being amended in offical documents, most importantly, in the birth certificate.

Actually, I doubt that's the case. Prussian law written in 1781 officially recognized transgenders and discuss that the person can choose their gender when they become 18.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Actually, I doubt that's the case. Prussian law written in 1781 officially recognized transgenders and discuss that the person can choose their gender when they become 18.

Brutha, that isn't the same thing as androgyny.
androgyny is seeing yourself as both or neither gender. it can apply to your psychological self-view or your physical self-view (or both). transgender is sometimes related but still a distinct classification.

Grace, that's awesome

[Brutha]

The law talks about 'Zwitter' with translates in English into hybrid.

I always thought that there's a difference between sex and gender (especially for those people who care about all those words surrounding gender).
According to the Pressuian law your sex could be 'Zwitter' and there are five paragraph that deals with people who's sex is 'Zwitter'.

[Cochonette]

It's spelt androgyny. Andro for male and gyn for female. Androgens are a male hormone.

Also, we need this here. I would change my status to this!

''It's not a detail I think should be part of my identity,'' neither he nor she said. (Norrie prefers ''zie''.)

lmao!

[Martyn13]

Hi
Just a point of view, for what it's worth
According to the article, this person was born a man, so originally, there was no ambiguity.
It was only later on, that this person became disatisfied with (his) assigned gender (assigned by god?! or nature, or higher self?).

Simply removing the outer (superficial) male sex organs, does not really change one's biological sex. There are an infinite number of differences between male and female. The female has periods, has a womb, and is biologically made entirely differently. Even the cells are different.
Just changing the outward appearance doesn't change one's sex - just as removing wrinkles doesn't make one younger.
The operation, at best, will enable him to be a 'pretend' female.

The birth certificate status, I think, is more for legal purposes, and possibly to placate this person. It is often easier for the authorities to do what the individual wants, rather than to go against their deeply held beliefs, whether or not they have any basis. Pressure groups nowadays know they have a lot of effect.
I think that the emotional problems are really only what is out into the public eye. The (boring - unstimulating?) scientific basis for decision, is not really gone into, as the vast majority are not bothered to discover the truth

[Cochonette]

I really don't understand why male or female is required on legal documents anyway, regardless of differences.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

It's spelt androgyny. Andro for male and gyn for female. Androgens are a male hormone.

Yes. True. My mistake.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

I really don't understand why male or female is required on legal documents anyway, regardless of differences.

You might be right. Still, I think it's cool.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

I really don't understand why male or female is required on legal documents anyway, regardless of differences.

Demographics.

[Karanime]

Yeah, I thought it was based on hormones and how they affect our decisions.

And which side of the reproductive process you're on. Heh. ^.^;

If you choose not to reproduce, there are still the hormones to consider.

/<3

[Brutha]

I really don't understand why male or female is required on legal documents anyway, regardless of differences.

You still have a lot of anti-discrimination laws for which the gender of someone matters.
As a practical matter all sorts of computer systems also expect people to have a gender and might crash or do strange things when faced with people who don't have a gender.

It is often easier for the authorities to do what the individual wants, rather than to go against their deeply held beliefs, whether or not they have any basis.

We Germans would never do something like that, we take our laws seriously Our laws are actually binding for authorities.
In Germany you would first have to change dozens of paragraphs of different laws before someone could have no gender.

[aelle]

That's pretty damn awesome.

Originally Posted by Martyn13

Hi
Just a point of view, for what it's worth
According to the article, this person was born a man, so originally, there was no ambiguity.
It was only later on, that this person became disatisfied with (his) assigned gender (assigned by god?! or nature, or higher self?).

Simply removing the outer (superficial) male sex organs, does not really change one's biological sex. ..../...
The operation, at best, will enable him to be a 'pretend' female.

I think you're mixing up gender and sex, here. Based on the article, Norrie's sex was indeed male at birth. But zir gender was yet unknown, same as for everyone else. We are all assigned a sex, wich for most people is obvious from birth, and a gender, which we discover as we grow up. Norrie discovered ze didn't identify with being male, and altered zir body to get a closer match. Ze changed zir sex, not zir gender.

And the whole point is that Norrie doesn't want to identify, or 'pretend' as you put it, to be female, either.

(I hope that remains easy to read, non-gendered pronouns are not easy!)

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

I really don't understand why male or female is required on legal documents anyway, regardless of differences.

Maybe, a few decades from now, it will be considered just as appalling that we used to officially record people's gender, as it feels now to officially record one's religion, race or political affiliation...

[IamAlsoThat]

Jews have no gender according to germans at one point or at least their gender is completely irrelevent mr nationalist

[James81]

Hmmm...another person lying to themself. Sheesh.

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

Hmmm...another person lying to themself. Sheesh.

what you talkin' bout Willis?

[James81]

Originally Posted by rei

what you talkin' bout Willis?

"I'm not man or woman"

What a crock. He was born with a penis. He's a dude. He'll always BE a dude and there's not a damn thing he can do to himself to change that.

I got no qualms with a dude who wants to do what society deems as "girly" things. I got no qualms with a dude who wants to have sex with men and women.

I actually got no qualms with him saying he's neither male nor female, but I AM rolling my eyes at it.

[Brutha]

Maybe, a few decades from now, it will be considered just as appalling that we used to officially record people's gender, as it feels now to officially record one's religion, race or political affiliation...

In the US race gets still recorded.

In Germany we have a law that gives people who are persecuted for their racial identity the right of asylum. As a result when someone requests asylum in Berlin their race gets recorded with produced some stir and some people got angry that race gets recorded.

Jews have no gender according to germans at one point or at least their gender is completely irrelevent mr nationalist

Where did you get that idea to fuel your xenophobia? Discrimination of Jewish people was about race and hadn't anything to do with gender.
Additional 33-45 was a relatively short time in German history. Before 33 nearly all European states had antisemitism and Germans were much different than their neighbors.
After 45 we actually cleared a lot of the ideas of race from our self understanding and Germany is now one of the few countries that gives people who are persecuted for their racial identity asylum.
We openly dealt with our problems and started treating minorities fairly while France, Spain and the UK continued to treat minorities in a way that the minorities thought that terrorism is the right answer.

I actually like German principles of having laws that you take seriously. If the US would have copied our regulatory framework after the savings and loan debacle of the 80s than the world now wouldn't have to suffer this crisis.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by aelle

Maybe, a few decades from now, it will be considered just as appalling that we used to officially record people's gender, as it feels now to officially record one's religion, race or political affiliation...

How many websites demand you tell them whether you are male or female, man or woman? It's really annoying because for many of them it is 100% pointless except for the webmaster to have information about you as it doesn't even get displayed anywhere. What are intersexed people supposed to put?

As a practical matter all sorts of computer systems also expect people to have a gender and might crash or do strange things when faced with people who don't have a gender.

What on earth? Why? Reminds of Y2K. Do you really think someone's official sex should be determined by a computer?

Demographics.

You can't record someone's sex in a survey without putting it on their birth certificate?

You still have a lot of anti-discrimination laws for which the gender of someone matters.

Yeah, the gender. And the sex?

In Germany we have a law that gives people who are persecuted for their racial identity the right of asylum. As a result when someone requests asylum in Berlin their race gets recorded with produced some stir and some people got angry that race gets recorded.

People are discriminated based on their perceived race, not what's on their official record. Same thing with hate crimes laws against queer people. Hate crimes are determined based on whether someone called you "faggot" right before they beat you, not based on whether you are gay or not. We don't record people's sexual orientation because that would be impossible.

I can see how race and sex might be useful for affirmative action, but then again some people don't agree with affirmative action. Actually, aren't those optional as well? I remember that it was my transcript that carried that information about me, and I actually asked my high school counselor to change my race from white to Asian.

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

"I'm not man or woman"

What a crock. He was born with a penis. He's a dude. He'll always BE a dude and there's not a damn thing he can do to himself to change that.

I got no qualms with a dude who wants to do what society deems as "girly" things. I got no qualms with a dude who wants to have sex with men and women.

I actually got no qualms with him saying he's neither male nor female, but I AM rolling my eyes at it.

even when there are licensed professionals who say zie is not just screwing around?

The law had not considered that anyone might want neither sex recorded but was able to accommodate the request when presented with evidence from two registered doctors that Norrie was physically and psychologically androgynous.

i understand this is a difficult idea for some folks... after all, we're used to being able to categorize people with gender and sex very quickly. it's considered an either/or thing, so i imagine some people might be uncomfortable if someone doesn't fit the either/or binary.

i don't think i'm physically androygynous, i look like a woman and i enjoy wearing skirts sometimes. but i am psycho-spiritually androgynous, so i can speak to the idea that - at least regarding psychological androgyny - it's not a crock. i'd imagine physical androgyny is just an outgrowth of psychological androgyny, for some who don't think gender and sex should be part of their identity.

do you never go through moments where you feel like your physical expression doesn't match who you feel yourself to be from the inside? not necessarily with regard to gender or sex. but, have you ever been physically strong, for example, in a moment where you saw yourself as fragile? i'd imagine we've ALL been through that at some point. so i find it interesting you are judging someone and invalidating their choice when it fits a pattern that you have probably experienced at some point, with different concepts.

[James81]

Ok, well I must've missed the part where it was an actual physical anomoly.

Originally Posted by rei

do you never go through moments where you feel like your physical expression doesn't match who you feel yourself to be from the inside? not necessarily with regard to gender or sex. but, have you ever been physically strong, for example, in a moment where you saw yourself as fragile? i'd imagine we've ALL been through that at some point. so i find it interesting you are judging someone and invalidating their choice when it fits a pattern that you have probably experienced at some point, with different concepts.

I physically have a penis, therefore there is no question in my mind that I am a man.

Do I have moments where what I feel and do fits what society deems as "female"? Sure I do, all the time. But I don't feel a need to call myself a "woman" in those moments. I am a man at all times. To say that I'm "androgynous" in those moments where what I do doesn't fit the image of a man is to perpetuate the idea that certain actions are "male" and others are "female."

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by rei

do you never go through moments where you feel like your physical expression doesn't match who you feel yourself to be from the inside? not necessarily with regard to gender or sex. but, have you ever been physically strong, for example, in a moment where you saw yourself as fragile? i'd imagine we've ALL been through that at some point. so i find it interesting you are judging someone and invalidating their choice when it fits a pattern that you have probably experienced at some point, with different concepts.

I agree with this. Transgendered people aren't pretending they have ovaries when they don't. The purpose of physically transitioning is to change your outer appearance to the way you perceive yourself, as well as the way you can relate to others and the way they perceive you. For many transsexual people, officially changing from M to F allows them to marry when they otherwise couldn't... which has nothing to do with their biology, really, but is just a matter of pointless discrimination. Personally, I am more attracted to a transwoman than to an ordinary male. That's because sex and gender and sexuality are all so intertwined. That is what makes people want to change their sex, not because they want to trick you into believing they have ovaries.

You perceive people differently based on their sex, and it has more to do with the perceiver than the one being perceived. I have fallen in love online before with someone whose only proof of biological sex was a few photos sent to me. I have also used dating websites, where my initial attraction is always based merely on their profile.

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

Ok, well I must've missed the part where it was an actual physical anomoly.

well, i think Norrie was born biologically male, as you thought. but there are still licensed professionals who are saying Norrie is psychologically androgynous as well as physically. i am not sure it matters how Norrie was born biologically. as others have said, gender is complex and doesn't really exist when you're born. it's not really about biology either. yes, in this thread the word "sex" is being used, but i think the topic is technically about gender, not sex. folks often use those words interchangably. i think they did in the article as well. i could be wrong, though. maybe it's about sex and not gender. i just know my own experience of androgyny is about gender energies, not biological sex.

Originally Posted by James81

I physically have a penis, therefore there is no question in my mind that I am a man.

Do I have moments where what I feel and do fits what society deems as "female"? Sure I do, all the time. But I don't feel a need to call myself a "woman" in those moments. I am a man at all times. To say that I'm "androgynous" in those moments where what I do doesn't fit the image of a man is to perpetuate the idea that certain actions are "male" and others are "female."

i was not talking about applying this pattern to your own experience regarding gender and sexuality. i was talking about the experience of feeling that the outer self doesn't match the inner self - that can be attitudes or traits or feelings or thoughts about almost anything related to self-image.

still, though, so you don't have a need or urge to call yourself a woman if you're running a more feminine vibe. okay, fair enough (but for the record, Norrie doesn't do that either). but i don't think i understand why you have an urge to say it's a crock if someone else is expressing self differently from how you might express yourself. is there a should gremlin in there somewhere?

[Cochonette]

as others have said, gender is complex and doesn't really exist when you're born. it's not really about biology either. yes, in this thread the word "sex" is being used, but i think the topic is technically about gender, not sex. folks often use those words interchangably. i think they did in the article as well. i could be wrong, though. maybe it's about sex and not gender. i just know my own experience of androgyny is about gender energies, not biological sex.

It's about both. Technically, it's about "sex," but the proof that not only society, but government itself, is judging your gender based on your sex is the fact that it's not legal in most places for F and F or M and M to marry each other.

[Brutha]

What on earth? Why? Reminds of Y2K. Do you really think someone's official sex should be determined by a computer?

There are people who weren't found by interpol because they had an uncommon accent in their name.
Unfortunately we life in a time where computers matter and even without computers it's good practice to limit the complexity of laws.

It's just easier if some town wants to have a gendered speaking list when there something like an official gender.

What are intersexed people supposed to put?

Whatever their official sex or gender happens to be.

Yeah, the gender. And the sex?

I think it's also forbidden to discriminate people based on sex.

You can't record someone's sex in a survey without putting it on their birth certificate?

What's the problem with having sex on a birth certificate? Norrie could life his life the same way when his birth certificate would say 'male'.

[Cochonette]

Well, Brutha, based on your responses, I am pretty sure we're not going to stop disagreeing any time soon because that doesn't fly with me at all. So I will leave it at that.

[Brutha]

I think that most debates have to side and I personally like to understand the reasons that other people have to held the beliefs that they do.
Saying 'I really don't understand XY' just shows that one either doesn't know and is ignorant about what one's talking about or that one feels the need to hide his own reasons and therefore has to pretend that the other side doesn't reasons.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

It's about both. Technically, it's about "sex," but the proof that not only society, but government itself, is judging your gender based on your sex is the fact that it's not legal in most places for F and F or M and M to marry each other.

fair enough.

i think the word androgyny is being used in a less precise way here. androgyny isn't always about sexuality, and it's not really just a synonym for transgender or genderqueer. some people who are androgynous are transgender or are in a non-typical place on the spectrum for sexuality, but it's not always the case. an androgyne can feel like he/she is both masculine and feminine, or can feel like neither. i think the word becomes synonymous with transgender for this reason, but it is really not the same thing.

[Cochonette]

rei, where in the official record is zie described as "androgynous"? It sounds like maybe the physicians described hir as such, but the record itself says only "not specified" as far as I can tell. If it were really about androgyny only, I suppose they would've put "androgynous" for sex.

Also, I didn't say anything about transgender, so I'm not sure why you brought that up. I know what androgyny is.

Wait, I read your post again... sorry, read it too quickly the first time... you're right, androgyny is not always about sexuality, but sexuality is what usually makes gender so important. Gender is, after all, based not only on your sex but your sexuality. The reason society regulates gender so stringently is because it is trying to regulate sexuality. Well... maybe later in life.... uh, I need to think about this more carefully.