A little advice, please?

[Exec]

Well, I've always been a long time reader of the forum, but I never really participated. Though I really do like the community you have here, and hopefully over time I'll merge myself into it, but at this given time I'm in need of some opinions on my problem. It's...prolly like ridiculously long, so if you don't want to read it i'd understand.

A few years back, I was playing this game where I met this girl (and this girl is who the story is about lol). It started off easy, we were friends then we started talking over Vent (its a VoIP program just..in case heh) and MSN/AIM and started liking each other. Turned out that she lived about 2 hours away, so after bout half a year of knowing each other and just overall spending time together, we decided to meet up.

The first time went pretty well. We were supposed to spend about 8 hours together, go to the movies and whatnot but due to me missing the bus we only spent about 4 hours together lol. Which left us with going to the movies, and grabbing a bite to eat.

Second time around, we got to spend pretty much the whole day together. Walked around, went to the mall, cuddled, watched a movie things like that. I remember my fav part of the night was when I was leaving to catch my bus back to the city, i looked back and I saw her standing there and she yelled across the parking lot "I LOVE YOUUUUUU" as to which I yelled it back hah, made my night.

The next time we met up, long story short, we fooled around a bit and she agreed and enjoyed, supposedly. It wasn't anything serious, just...exploration, if you will? Heh.

To describe the times we spent together, there's really only one way I can describe it. You know how when you're with someone, and you can just see how they act or the way the react that they're just truly happy? that you can see it in their eyes, or the way they act with you...that they just love the time with you? That's the vibe I was getting from her. I knew she enjoyed spending time with me, as I loved every second with her. (Along with the fact she told me that she enjoyed the time with me, that I made her happy she never wanted me to leave, etc)

Well skip a few months, we hadn't gotten to see each other. Around this time, her family member had gotten into a fatal car accident. She went through a bad greiving process, and I wasn't sure how to make it better. I offered to take her out to the movies, or to dinner maybe to take her mind off things and if i could make her feel better. She declined, saying that she just wanted some time alone. So I tried giving that to her. But then she started talking to other friends of ours but she'd never talk to me. I'd talk to her, and she'd just ignore me. Another thing that annoyed me to no end was that there was this guy she was friends with, who was open with her by telling her that he had feelings for her. I asked her if she told him she had a boyfriend (me), and she said no, and she didn't tell him because she didn't want to hurt his feelings and she would refuse to tell him off. We got into a slight fight about that, which was interesting because for the year we were together we actually never had a fight. We had some disagreements that we'd always work out in like a half hour, but never had an extensive fight. Well, eventually, this lead to her just blocking me and cutting off all communication with me and her justification was that I was smothering her, or wasn't giving her enough time to grieve and whatnot.

According to her, she hated me and never wanted anything to ever do with me. It hurt me, she was something different, someone who just brought that happiness inside of you, who made everyday a wonderful day. So, naturally, it took me awhile to get over it. I never forgot about her, but I moved on (least I tried to.)

So skip about a year and a half, and come to last christmas. Long story short, she started talking to me and we hit it off. It didn't last long, maybe about a few weeks to a month. It felt as if we rushed into things, and we probably did. It didn't feel right. But the last day we were talking, she was telling me about one of her ex boyfriends and how he treated her badly. She'd say how he made her feel bad, treated her like crap, told her that he'd always come and take her out and see her but always just stood her up. But then she told me how if he ever came back and wanted to be with her, she'd probably go back. And i told her that was the most rediculous thing I've ever heard in my life, that he hurt her and that she couldn't take that, there's no way she could take that again and that I wouldn't allow it. Well, again she ended up blocking me, cutting off all communications, wouldn't answer my calls ,etc etc. I just said fine and left it at that.

Well, here's the fun part lol[ as if the past page and a half wasn't fun enough?]. She recently started talking to me again about a few weeks/month ago.

She basically started off by saying that she thinks she's mature enough to finally hold a conversation with me and was surprised that I didn't hate her. I explained to her that I had no reason to hate her, and if she ever wanted to make amends, then that would be impossible if I had just cut all ties with her. She said she was thankful that I didnt, and that she ultimately missed me.

So over the course of talking and excessive flirting, she'd tell me how I had the best personality of any boyfriend, or just any person, she's ever met before. That I always knew how to make her laugh, laugh till she cried. I made it obvious from the getgo that I wanted to be with her again, as to which she said that while i was at the top of the list for boyfriends and that she'd pick me over anyone, she just wasn't ready to date and was content with where she was now. I respected that, and told her that if she ever changed her mind, that i'd be here for her.

About a week later, we'd get on topic of being in a relationship again. She said that she was "never as happy as I perceived her to be, and that she had no feelings for me". Which hurt, but I knew it wasn't true...but it made me doubt it of course. But then she'd go on about how she wasn't attracted to me, and that she didn't want me to feel bad.

At this point I decided it'd be best if I stopped flirting with her, and just ease off her. Then, again lol, we got on a topic of being in a relationship. She told me she didn't mean any of those things she said, but she said it only as some sort of defense mechanism because she's afraid of getting hurt. That if she pushes me away, then she can't get hurt again, but that she really did like me and that she loved the time she spent around me. One day when I got home really late, she told me that she missed me. that she was lonely, and was sad that i wasn't around, and that she really missed me and that's when it struck her and she asked herself "I'm not dating him, why do I feel this way?".

The next day she was talking to a mutual friend of mine. When I got home, she told me that I had vividly popped into her head and that she was talking about me. I asked her what she was said, and she said how she remembered what I was like. How she missed my voice, she missed how my hands felt, looking into my eyes, when i held her close, how she just overall remembered all the times we spent together. So we spent a good deal talking about how we remembered each others features, the feelings we shared, etc.

At this point, throughout the times we've been talking, I had frequently asked her if I could call her again sometime. She said no. I said alright and let it go. I asked if I could, perhaps, come see her again sometime. She said no, and again I let it go. But this night, she said "So you don't want to talk to me anymore?" I said I did, but everytime I asked her she said no. She responded by saying she didn't want me to talk to her on the phone, because she hated using the phone [which i can vouch for lol. particularly cause i hate the phone too but she just throws stuff whenever hte phone rings.] but that she wanted to talk to me over Skype at least. I said that I'd love to. She then asked if I didn't want to come see her anymore. I said I did, but she again turned me down. She said well we'd be hanging out just as friends. I said alright. She asked me why I'm taking it this time when before I wouldn't. I said before I wanted a date but i'm not gonna deny her friendship because i can't get a date with her.

So thus, we started talking over skype again. A lot of the time she'll ask me when am I going to come see her. I'll tell her whenever she's ready, just give me a day and I'll clear my schedule. I don't want to press the issue, but I really would like to see her again.

[Finished in next post]

[Exec]

Well, in regards to the relationship, she says that she still doesn't want a relationship. She's happy where we are now, "friends that cuddle". She says that there's a wall between the intimacy that we'd share, against the cuddling that we'd do now. She says its usually due to the fooling around we did way back when, and that I abused her trust and that isn't what she really wanted. I apologized to her, I told her I was a naive young teen boy, and that nothing I can do now to make it up to her, but that i'd make every moment from now on worth it and that i'd never hurt her again. We shared an...emotional night, one could say. She said that she believed me, but it was hard. I told her that while I couldn't understand it because it wasn't me on that end, but that I"d do everything possible to just make everything better for her. She told me that no one she's ever been with was as good as me, and that she thought we were great for each other, just our personalities matched, our humors laughed, just loved every aspect of each other.

Lately we haven't been talking much about relationships though. It just seems like we're talking, just talking talking though. We aren't flirting, or anything of the sort. So I brought this up to a few friends of mine. Three, exactly [and then you guys]. Two of my friends say that she's probably always loved me, still does, and still wants to be with me. The last friend told me that I oughta proceeded with caution, and that she thinks that she might be stringing me along. That she's probably trying to make another guy jealous, or using me as some ego/happiness-battery. I told her that if she was stringing me along, the [mutual friend she was talking to before] would tell me, cause we're just that close of friends (we've known each other for years, and i introduced them to each other) and he wouldn't want me to get hurt. So, that's my only recluse from thinking she's stringing me along.

I present this extensive story to you in hopes that I could get your opinion on it. I could've made it shorter, but I wanted to make sure to add as much detail as I could to get a better opinion of my situation. If you took the time out to read it, I greatly appreciate it, along with any advice/opinions that I could receive. I dunno if she likes me, or if I should keep flirting with her, or wait it out or what have you. I try to get as many opinions as I can because as a person with vested interest in this matter, I'll have a natural tendency to want a certain outcome...so I use a council of advice (my friends, you guys, etc) to try to balance it all out and make sure I get a clear view. Just maybe a good third person view on the matter, how do you think she feels, how I should proceed etc. I've always been a pretty good believer in doing what your instincts say, follow your heart, etc. And my insticts/ heart tells me she's always loved me, she wants to be with me and that she's just afraid of getting hurt again or so and its up to me to prove to her that I really am the right guy for her.

Again, if you took the time to read/reply/laugh all that lovely stuff, I do appreciate it all.

[Wow, that felt really good to get off lol. Just write the whole story out *whew*]

[Fin~]

[rei]

i agree with your friend who says it seems she is stringing you along. she may not be doing this on purpose, but she knows you will come running if she asks you to (because that is basically the pattern that is already there). but this is not just about her, it is also about you, how you seem to have ended up in the friend zone.

with the kind of history you shared here, i am not sure she is interested in the same thing you're interested in. she wants a cuddle buddy, you want to date her. there are different goals at work there. they clash. if she only wants a cuddle buddy, and isn't really interested in dating you, do you really wish to continue relating to her this way - or would you rather do some "inner game" work and attract a partner who has the same relationship goals as you do?

so, you asked for impressions on this scenario, i have offered mine. there is a ton of info here and elsewhere online about getting out of the friend zone and working on behavior/attitude/inner self to reduce the chances of it happening again. a few regular posters here have apparently gotten out of the friend zone situation, hopefully they will post in this thread.

my advice? either do the 'inner game' work, and invest your energy in meeting other girls, or be a friend, but relate to her as you would to other friends. most "friends" don't cuddle... find a way to let her know you aren't comfortable pretending to be in a relationship (cuddling) when you really aren't. find a way to let her know it is either a relationship or a friendship, not the best of both. (actually, i am not sure this will work in your best interest. why? because if she had already wanted it to be a relationship, you wouldn't be asking for advice because you would have one. frankly, girls will sometimes use valid issues as an excuse to avoid direct rejection. they think they are being nice by doing this, but i'm not so sure it is nice to lead someone on.)

she may not know what she wants, she may be wanting to date you and then shying away. she may have some issues that make her a bit masochistic, if she has brought up an ex who treated her badly. she may think she deserves that treatment, and if this is true, she will need to do some significant work on herself before she's in a position to really accept it if you are treating her well.

but it sounds like this pattern she has of apparently wanting to date you, and then shying away, is starting to mess with your head a little bit. and also you might find it very empowering to accept, for yourself, that you willingly pursued something each time you were in contact again - you pursued even though you remembered how it worked out the other times. it takes great courage and strength to accept responsibility for our actions, for our part in something. i encourage you to consider that as well.

[EddieT]

Originally Posted by Exec

But the last day we were talking, she was telling me about one of her ex boyfriends and how he treated her badly. She'd say how he made her feel bad, treated her like crap, told her that he'd always come and take her out and see her but always just stood her up. But then she told me how if he ever came back and wanted to be with her, she'd probably go back. And i told her that was the most rediculous thing I've ever heard in my life, that he hurt her and that she couldn't take that, there's no way she could take that again and that I wouldn't allow it.

It may sound ridiculous to want to be with someone that hurts you but isn't that exactly the same situation you're in with her now?

[OlderWiser]

Let me tell you about a particular habit that some immature and/or insecure people have. It's called the "Back Burner" game.

The way this game is played, you cultivate a friendship with a person of the preferred gender. Once he has feelings for you, you put him on the "back burner", sort of "in reserve" so that if things don't work out with some other guy that you're more interested in, you can go back to the friend, be all sweet to him, and play with his head for a while until you find someone else you like better, at which time, you put the friend on the back burner again to simmer quietly. If he shows signs of boiling over, you turn the heat down, of course, and you turn it up if he looks like he's going cold...

It's a cruel, manipulative game (and note that it's played by both genders upon each other; I just arbitrarily chose genders for the two parties in this case).

Is this girl playing that game with you? I can't say. I don't know either of you. But what you're describing does fit the pattern.

Try cooling off on her and see what happens. If she turns up the heat again, you'll know for sure. If she doesn't, just let her go, because she's not that interested, anyway, and will probably keep going hot and cold on your as she's apparently been doing all along.

That's my take on it, but keep in mind, I tend to be cynical, AND I really don't like relationships where the other party goes hot and cold and comes and goes and such. I prefer someone a bit more steady and a lot more honest (that goes for friendships as well as romantic relationships, btw).

[Exec]

Originally Posted by EddieT

It may sound ridiculous to want to be with someone that hurts you but isn't that exactly the same situation you're in with her now?

I understand where you're coming from, but the only way she's really hurt me was from when we broke up. It isn't like she put me down or anything, i've been in relationships where the girl was more self centered and I'd just kinda be there, so in relation to that I suppose it was much better. We had a very good relationship when we did, and I enjoyed it thoroughly, was just after the accident things kinda *woosh* hit the fan lol.

Originally Posted by OlderWiser

Let me tell you about a particular habit that some immature and/or insecure people have. It's called the "Back Burner" game.

The way this game is played, you cultivate a friendship with a person of the preferred gender. Once he has feelings for you, you put him on the "back burner", sort of "in reserve" so that if things don't work out with some other guy that you're more interested in, you can go back to the friend, be all sweet to him, and play with his head for a while until you find someone else you like better, at which time, you put the friend on the back burner again to simmer quietly. If he shows signs of boiling over, you turn the heat down, of course, and you turn it up if he looks like he's going cold...

It's a cruel, manipulative game (and note that it's played by both genders upon each other; I just arbitrarily chose genders for the two parties in this case).

Is this girl playing that game with you? I can't say. I don't know either of you. But what you're describing does fit the pattern.

Try cooling off on her and see what happens. If she turns up the heat again, you'll know for sure. If she doesn't, just let her go, because she's not that interested, anyway, and will probably keep going hot and cold on your as she's apparently been doing all along.

That's my take on it, but keep in mind, I tend to be cynical, AND I really don't like relationships where the other party goes hot and cold and comes and goes and such. I prefer someone a bit more steady and a lot more honest (that goes for friendships as well as romantic relationships, btw).

I also see where this is coming from. Both you and rei make very good points as to where I'm just being strung along. The only thing I could think of that tested that was a few days ago I wasn't in much of a good mood, so I was quiet a lot of the night and she'd ask me if I was alright, and that I seemed distant and seemed genuinely interested.

In regards to rei, she has had that attitude that she thinks she deserves that bad treatment, and that she deserved all that she got from him. I've been trying to get her off that mentality, to show her she's worth something greater. I think she's taking to it, very slowly though, but I'm fine with that...progress is progress. She says she's comfortable around me, and that she feels she'd never be judged by me or that I wouldn't look at her in a negative light and treat her badly.

I appreciate the input, it seems that the general consensus is that she's probably just stringing me along :/. I don't really /want/ to believe it, but that's jut human nature right? lol, I guess I'd have to ween myself off a bit and see if i can direct my attention elsewhere. Just out of pure...hope? I guess, do you think there's any chance that she's actually interested in me, or am I just grasping at straws? lol.

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by Exec

In regards to rei, she has had that attitude that she thinks she deserves that bad treatment, and that she deserved all that she got from him. I've been trying to get her off that mentality, to show her she's worth something greater. I think she's taking to it, very slowly though, but I'm fine with that...progress is progress. She says she's comfortable around me, and that she feels she'd never be judged by me or that I wouldn't look at her in a negative light and treat her badly.

Ask yourself this: How would you feel about spending a great deal of time and energy helping - or maybe more precisely, trying to fix - her, just to see her go back to her abusive ex-boyfriend or some other guy who treats her without respect?

You can't help this girl. She can help herself, but that is going to take a very long time. If she grew up thinking she was worthless and deserved being treated badly, then that's what she's going to respond to.. someone treating her well causes discomfort because it clashes with her view of herself.

I appreciate the input, it seems that the general consensus is that she's probably just stringing me along :/. I don't really /want/ to believe it, but that's jut human nature right? lol, I guess I'd have to ween myself off a bit and see if i can direct my attention elsewhere. Just out of pure...hope? I guess, do you think there's any chance that she's actually interested in me, or am I just grasping at straws? lol.

Sorry to say it, but it sounds to me like you're caught in the middle of the friend zone. I've been there and it's not a pretty place - unless you actually want to be there, of course

Being friends with someone you really want more from is a recipe for being unhappy, trust me.. I've been there with my ex-girlfriend. If you're not perfectly fine with only being her friend, I would stop contacting her.

I hope things work out for you - from your posts, you seem like a caring, intelligent young man and you deserve better than this. I would start to think more about getting your own needs met. I can see of lot of myself in you since I have the same problems, like trying to "fix" other people and meet their every need or want. I'm still addressing my own issues, so I'm no expert. But I can tell you that accepting that it's something you need to work on is the first step.