Guys Go For Looks, Girls Go For Status?

[rei]

i do not mean to be dissing nature - she rocks!
and i am not saying the system isn't incredibly well-designed either. i am just not sure how empowering it can be to constantly filter behavior through an evolutionary lens. if we use that approach, does it not at least make it very enticing to jump immediately to the nature/biochemical/evolutionary response instead of saying to ourselves, 'ok, i own that abc happened because i did xyz'? i guess i see the potential to blame nature's perfect system for unpleasant experiences instead of accepting the role we have in contributing to those experiences - beyond the role our genetics and chemistry play.

but i am not saying nature or evolution is bad/evil/destructive. my point is not even about nature or biochemistry, it's about filtering all dating and mating stuff through those things, whether they are always influencing us or not. i guess i just see the potential for it to be an easy out, a way to wiggle out of a moment of empowerment and accountability. (notice i said potential, not actual and not always... just possible.)

[Gracestars]

I don't agree. But that's neither here nor there. My point was that status, which seems to be largely defined as "money, job, connections" does not push every girl's buttons.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rei

but i am not saying nature or evolution is bad/evil/destructive. my point is not even about nature or biochemistry, it's about filtering all dating and mating stuff through those things, whether they are always influencing us or not. i guess i just see the potential for it to be an easy out, a way to wiggle out of a moment of empowerment and accountability. (notice i said potential, not actual and not always... just possible.)

I think it's more a case of working with it, since you can never be separate from it. You can't have conscious thought and decision making without using the exact same processes nature created to achieve such a thing. It's like a snake eating its tail to think they can be two separate elements/forces.

[Gracestars]

(that last post was @ cylon)

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Gracestars

I don't agree. But that's neither here nor there. My point was that status, which seems to be largely defined as "money, job, connections" does not push every girl's buttons.

I agree with that. But I think if a guy even has that potential, it's more or less the same thing. Ultimately, it's status in your eyes, your own world where he is at the top.

[rei]

i'm not talking about separating from it, because yes that is impossible. but i don't think it's as simple as being a person of childbearing age in x situation always means y. i think that is a potentially disempowering perspective and really there is no way to know whether the chemicals influence the initial action or whether the decision to act brings a certain chemical cocktail... at least i can't think of any way to test that with validity and in a way that can be replicated. i think there is a spiritual or energetic element to these things, and that is not something science can test.

@Gracestars: sounds to me like you may even have an aversion to materialism/financial status, and i could definitely relate if that's the case as i am similar about it. and if you see it that way as well, would that change what you mean by your broke dreamer getting his act together?

[Gracestars]

I might get in trouble from the ladies in the house for this one.. And whilst I classify myself a feminist, I agree that letting a man open jar lid that won't budge, or reaching something high, or dealing with a spider, or changing a light bulb, every now and then is not a bad thing. And I personally feel quite comfortable in my "femininity" in doing so. This does not negate our ability as women to manage life perfectly well on our own, but i think it does make men feel more useful and I don't see a problem with that.

[cylon]

Don't forget the part about us helping defeat the ninja squad. That's more important than the jar lid.

If you got in trouble with the ladies in the house for that one, our society has much bigger problems than I thought.

[rei]

no trouble from me Grace
guys like to fix things, so if something needs to be fixed why not let them do it once in a while? well, i don't really mean 'let them' in a power-over way. but if they want to, why try to stop them or get huffy and say 'i can do it myself!'? again i think this is a personal choice, but i agree with you.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rei

i think there is a spiritual or energetic element to these things

I do too. And those elements are expressed in the physical form by process such as evolutionary biology.

That's what I'm saying, they are the same thing. Everything is one thing. Human being, star, memory, habit, fingernail, dream... all one thing. Trees too.

[rei]

i agree

amazing to me how often we bicker with our self.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by rei

i'm not talking about separating from it, because yes that is impossible. but i don't think it's as simple as being a person of childbearing age in x situation always means y. i think that is a potentially disempowering perspective and really there is no way to know whether the chemicals influence the initial action or whether the decision to act brings a certain chemical cocktail... at least i can't think of any way to test that with validity and in a way that can be replicated. i think there is a spiritual or energetic element to these things, and that is not something science can test.

@Gracestars: sounds to me like you may even have an aversion to materialism/financial status, and i could definitely relate if that's the case as i am similar about it. and if you see it that way as well, would that change what you mean by your broke dreamer getting his act together?

Ahhh good question. This is where it gets a little grey. Whilst I do have an issue with materialism and the superficiality that seems to accompany it, I don't want to be struggling financially my whole life, and I want my one day children to have access to the opportunities of their choice. I do not work a glamorous job and I am about to start post grad studies that will likely make me no money in the future (but I love what I'll be studying), but I still work hard an income and the small pleasures I can afford. I believe in hard work and I need a partner who can contribute. I certianly cannot support a family alone on my income, and everyone likes to be able to take a nice holiday once a year!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rei

i agree

amazing to me how often we bicker with our self.

Glad I thought of that.

[rei]

hope that isn't more placating irony.
and if it is, oh well. the debate has lost some of its entertainment value for me, probably for you as well. back to truceland...

Gracestars, yes that was a very fuzzy response lol! i don't think money automatically creates materialism and superficiality. money itself is neutral, despite what anti-Fed Reserve people say. so it's more about the intentions we have with it than having it at all. abundance is not a bad thing. but as much as i am still triggered by evidence of greed, i realize i am still working through resistance to abundance. part of it is also that idea that spiritual folks are supposed to live piously or whatever. very much part of the old paradigm but if i'm honest, i have not let it go completely.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rei

hope that isn't more placating irony.
and if it is, oh well. the debate has lost some of its entertainment value for me, probably for you as well. back to truceland...

No, I was agreeing with you. Stop taking what I'm saying the wrong way!

<emoticon>

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by rei

hope that isn't more placating irony.
and if it is, oh well. the debate has lost some of its entertainment value for me, probably for you as well. back to truceland...

Gracestars, yes that was a very fuzzy response lol! i don't think money automatically creates materialism and superficiality. money itself is neutral, despite what anti-Fed Reserve people say. so it's more about the intentions we have with it than having it at all. abundance is not a bad thing. but as much as i am still triggered by evidence of greed, i realize i am still working through resistance to abundance. part of it is also that idea that spiritual folks are supposed to live piously or whatever. very much part of the old paradigm but if i'm honest, i have not let it go completely.

Yeah, okay I see that, and I agree. "Spiritual" people shouldn't have to live like spartans, I'm glad you said that. I suppose a lot of the contact I have had with people with substantial amounts of money have tended to be people who bore the pants off me. Simple as that.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Gracestars

I might get in trouble from the ladies in the house for this one.. And whilst I classify myself a feminist, I agree that letting a man open jar lid that won't budge, or reaching something high, or dealing with a spider, or changing a light bulb, every now and then is not a bad thing. And I personally feel quite comfortable in my "femininity" in doing so. This does not negate our ability as women to manage life perfectly well on our own, but i think it does make men feel more useful and I don't see a problem with that.

No trouble from me either, Grace.

I don't think it's a "bad" thing. It's just that the few times I behaved that way in the past, I felt uncomfortable with it. I felt... kinda dirty. As if it weren't aligned with integrity. Because in some way I was playing a role. I wasn't being my genuine self. Plus, I felt kinda condescending. It was like "You need to feel useful, poor darling... here, you have something to do so that you feel like a man...".

I'm not saying in any way that you are dirty or condescending, Grace!! That's just how I personally felt back then. Because actually, I felt like proudly showing that I was strong and could help them. Fixing the clogged sink was my way of showing that I cared.

So in some way I can understand very well what cylon means.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

No trouble from me either, Grace.

I don't think it's a "bad" thing. It's just that the few times I behaved that way in the past, I felt uncomfortable with it. I felt... kinda dirty. As if it weren't aligned with integrity. Because in some way I was playing a role. I wasn't being my genuine self. Plus, I felt kinda condescending. It was like "You need to feel useful, poor darling... here, you have something to do so that you feel like a man...".

I'm not saying in any way that you are dirty or condescending, Grace!! That's just how I personally felt back then. Because actually, I felt like proudly showing that I was strong and could help them. Fixing the clogged sink was my way of showing that I cared.

So in some way I can understand very well what cylon means.

Interesting... I guess I personally do not feel uncomfortable with it, I actually really like it if I'm honest I can understand then why it would make you feel uncomfortable. You shouldn't have to sacrifice your sense of integrity.

[rei]

@Grace: could it be you are more bored with their mainstream stuff than you are with the fact that they are financially wealthy? i have no real interest in people who seem totally mainstream either, i like the unique quirky stuff myself. but to me it's more about personality and expression of individuality than it is about money. i feel like you're a bit bored of this topic though...

@cylon: i thought you actually liked seeing people misunderstand you... i bet you are good at using undetected sarcasm too.

[cylon]

Allright what I said has devolved into simple household chores, which is not what I was saying. You don't make a man feel appreciated by JUST allowing him to open a jar lid.

But, I'm sure some guys got what I was saying.

Basically, we like it when a woman acknowledges us for our masculinity. More of the ninja squad, then the jar lid.

I think most guys feel better when they are with women like that, I know I do.

But, that is my personal preference and I don't expect anyone else to truly understand what I'm getting at, OR to agree, because we all have different preferences. There is no one size fits all.

(Trying here to be all-inclusive )

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rei

@cylon: i thought you actually liked seeing people misunderstand you... i bet you are good at using undetected sarcasm too.

I told you about the sagg/scorpio thing, we're supposed to misunderstand each other.

But.. that is o.k. And can be fun too!

Night folks.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by rei

@Grace: could it be you are more bored with their mainstream stuff than you are with the fact that they are financially wealthy? i have no real interest in people who seem totally mainstream either, i like the unique quirky stuff myself. but to me it's more about personality and expression of individuality than it is about money. i feel like you're a bit bored of this topic though...

Yep, it could well be that. Unfortunately the two seem to go hand in hand. Professions chosen by people I find interesting don't generally generate vast incomes. So whaddya do?

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by cylon

Allright what I said has devolved into simple household chores, which is not what I was saying. You don't make a man feel appreciated by JUST allowing him to open a jar lid.

But, I'm sure some guys got what I was saying.

Basically, we like it when a woman acknowledges us for our masculinity. More of the ninja squad, then the jar lid.

I think most guys feel better when they are with women like that, I know I do.

But, that is my personal preference and I don't expect anyone else to truly understand what I'm getting at, OR to agree, because we all have different preferences. There is no one size fits all.

(Trying here to be all-inclusive )

LOL I realise that cylon... stop finding ways to disagree for the sake of it. These small 'household' jobs represent more than what you claim in my opinion, but whatever... I haven't had to deal with a ninja squad so I don't know..

[rei]

well, you don't need "vast" incomes to give your children the options they may want. and since i'm sorting through the issue myself i don't have any solutions based on experience. i do know though, that even people who on the outside (like with their style of dress) seem a bit ordinary can have a charmingly quirky quality as well.

and i do think you may need to figure out what is more important to you, the type of financial security you aren't sure you will have on your own steam or someone whose external expression triggers that chemistry. it is possible to have both i think, definitely, but the vibe i get from you is that you think it must be one or the other.

i am curious... are you doing post grad work in philosophy or religion or something else?

um... sort of to keep this on topic, i agree with what cylon said about your own personal type of status in the sexy rock star type.

Grace, you haven't had to deal with the ninja squad??!! count your blessings! they are a crazy bunch, lemme tell you.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Gracestars

Interesting... I guess I personally do not feel uncomfortable with it, I actually really like it if I'm honest I can understand then why it would make you feel uncomfortable. You shouldn't have to sacrifice your sense of integrity.

I still love to impress my grandma by lifting very heavy weights in front of her! Muahahaha.

But I'm trying to become more feminine now, so maybe I can learn from you.

Right now I'd love to have a guy fix the house. Something is stinking in my kitchen and I don't know what! The smell seems to come from the ceiling. I'll climb on the roof tomorrow. I wouldn't mind having a ninja do that for me.

PS: cylon just absolutely wants to be misunderstood by women.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by rei

well, you don't need "vast" incomes to give your children the options they may want. and since i'm sorting through the issue myself i don't have any solutions based on experience. i do know though, that even people who on the outside (like with their style of dress) seem a bit ordinary can have a charmingly quirky quality as well.

and i do think you may need to figure out what is more important to you, the type of financial security you aren't sure you will have on your own steam or someone whose external expression triggers that chemistry. it is possible to have both i think, definitely, but the vibe i get from you is that you think it must be one or the other.

i am curious... are you doing post grad work in philosophy or religion or something else?

um... sort of to keep this on topic, i agree with what cylon said about your own personal type of status in the sexy rock star type.

Grace, you haven't had to deal with the ninja squad??!! count your blessings! they are a crazy bunch, lemme tell you.

See this is where I start to feel like it is intellectualizing attraction too much. All I know is that I like what I like, and when I find "him" I'll know it.

I know they're a crazy type. I've dated them. And their music comes first. Funny thing is, I can swear I will date a different "type" but another will pop up in front of me in due time anyway. I have noticed though that the men I am attracting and am attracted to is become a little more diverse, which is a good thing. Again though, I believe I will attract the most suitable mate in time as long as I continue to develop myself.

I'm studying creative writing. And I'm a social worker

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by rei

well, you don't need "vast" incomes to give your children the options they may want. and since i'm sorting through the issue myself i don't have any solutions based on experience. i do know though, that even people who on the outside (like with their style of dress) seem a bit ordinary can have a charmingly quirky quality as well.

and i do think you may need to figure out what is more important to you, the type of financial security you aren't sure you will have on your own steam or someone whose external expression triggers that chemistry. it is possible to have both i think, definitely, but the vibe i get from you is that you think it must be one or the other.

i am curious... are you doing post grad work in philosophy or religion or something else?

um... sort of to keep this on topic, i agree with what cylon said about your own personal type of status in the sexy rock star type.

Grace, you haven't had to deal with the ninja squad??!! count your blessings! they are a crazy bunch, lemme tell you.

Ninja squad.. yeah, been lucky so far. I'll call on cylon if I ever need his manly assistance with one.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Gracestars

See this is where I start to feel like it is intellectualizing attraction too much. All I know is that I like what I like, and when I find "him" I'll know it.

I know they're a crazy type. I've dated them. And their music comes first. Funny thing is, I can swear I will date a different "type" but another will pop up in front of me in due time anyway. I have noticed though that the men I am attracting and am attracted to is become a little more diverse, which is a good thing. Again though, I believe I will attract the most suitable mate in time as long as I continue to develop myself.

I'm studying creative writing. And I'm a social worker

wow that is weird.
i went for an MFA in creative writing (poetry) and then switched to go to grad school for social work.

i agree with what you said about intellectualizing though. this stuff should come naturally.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by rei

wow that is weird.
i went for an MFA in creative writing (poetry) and then switched to go to grad school for social work.

i agree with what you said about intellectualizing though. this stuff should come naturally.

Ha! Really?? How funny... I write poetry

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I still love to impress my grandma by lifting very heavy weights in front of her! Muahahaha.

But I'm trying to become more feminine now, so maybe I can learn from you.

Right now I'd love to have a guy fix the house. Something is stinking in my kitchen and I don't know what! The smell seems to come from the ceiling. I'll climb on the roof tomorrow. I wouldn't mind having a ninja do that for me.

PS: cylon just absolutely wants to be misunderstood by women.

Well if you like fixing things or fighting Ninja squads, good for you! Just don't invite cylon over. He'll feel left out.