Guys Go For Looks, Girls Go For Status?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Yeah, I was meaning I didn't want it to be taken to the point of it being a rape discussion..

You'd be surprised at how many people want anything that remotely suggests masculinity or dominance within a man, to sound like it's the work of the devil. James had the appropriate response, anyone who misread that IS stupid. I wouldn't have corrected it, but at least that Idea got refuted.

Of course, if a guy had that sort of violence in him, I really doubt it would matter what he reads. His mind is all screwy.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by James81

I never said that women don't know what they want. I just said that women don't understand what they respond to. Those are two separate things.

On paper, yes. But is it really? Let's take this, for example:

Originally Posted by James81

This is one of those things that no girl will ever admit to, but underneath it all is true a good chunk of the time.

Best thing you can do when you want to know what girls are into is to NOT ask them (because most of the time they come out with a whole ream of BS lol)

Translate: Girls are not fully aware of what they really are into. It can even happen that they are attracted to things that they will never admit being attracted to.
Translate: I know better than girls what really gets them going. If a girl claims not to be attracted to some thing, it could be that she is and is just not admitting of it.

Can you see how such beliefs could lead some guys to not taking a "no" very seriously in some circumstances?

And I don't think that that has anything to do with levels of consciousness.

I think it has. When I wasn't as conscious as now, I thought I responded to some things and liked some things when I actually liked other things and responded to other things. Now I know fairly well how I respond to what. Or maybe that's just because I'm getting older.

[James81]

Rose, let me give you an example.

Every girl I've ever known (and probably will know) says they pretty much want the same thing in a guy: they want a guy that treats them right, a nice guy, a handsome guy, a good father, etc.

Now, on the surface, I've always been all of those things. (yes, I narcissistically think of myself as "handsome" ) And to boot, on the surface, I have a great job and the ability to provide for a woman.

However, women haven't always responded to me. I mean, with my outer credentials, you'd think women would've lined the block wanting to get with a guy like me. But, sadly, that wasn't the case. I was always the guy who get friendzoned. Women never thought of me as anything more than a friend. I had a handful of girls date me before I got married, but most girls looked through me without a second thought.

Why? Why did all those girls say (and even said it to ME, after knowing me) they wanted a guy just like me, but when I'd ask them out they'd tell me they didn't see me like that?

The reason was because I was the type of guy every girl wanted, but I was also the type of guy who didn't have a clue as to what women RESPOND to.

The solution, I discovered, wasn't to change who I am (women love who I am, always have and always will). The solution was to change how I PRESENT MYSELF to women. How I market myself. THere's a certain element of "chase" that you have to do to get women to respond to that most men (who aren't good with women) don't even realize that they need to be doing.

so what do most men do? They start changing WHO THEY ARE instead of how they interact with women. And in doing so they end up bitter and disrespecting women because on the surface it looks like women don't really know what they want. But the truth is that they don't know what they respond to.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Yeah, I was meaning I didn't want it to be taken to the point of it being a rape discussion..

but seems it hasn't gone that crazy...

Haha! Sorry Brendan.

You see, I am just now in the process of supporting a girl who is devastated because she was raped a few days ago, exactly by one of those guys who believe that girls don't really know what they want and what they say they want is not what they really want.

I guess I am just very sensitive to the consequences such beliefs can have at this time.

Originally Posted by James81

And let me go back and touch on something here lest what I say be misconstrued. When I say that a woman tends to not know what she repsonds to, and that "what they say they want and what they really want are two different things," that does NOT mean in any way shape or form that you should disregard what she is saying and do something anyway.

James, I know that you don't encourage rape or disregarding what women say and doing something anyway. I also know that you don't really believe the things you said the way I "translated" them.

I just said that I hate this kind of statements in general, because some guys are not as wise as you are, and when they are taught such beliefs by people like you, they DO interpret them the way I translated them, and this definitely leads to dangerous actions, especially when they're drunk or otherwise out of control.

Believing that people lack awareness is not empowering for anybody.

But I too do encourage men (and women) to look at people's actions rather than at their words. On that we agree.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by James81

But the truth is that they don't know what they respond to.

I still believe that mature and conscious women know pretty well what they respond to. Maybe the girls you were dating were young and not very clear about all this yet?

But anyway. All the things you said that those girls wanted are pretty general. Just because girls want a handsome, nice, good father etc. doesn't mean that they'd want ANY guy with those characteristics. Attraction is not a logical thing. People aren't attracted to each other just because on paper this other person is what they look for. There are a lot more factors involved. For example the whole energy thing.

Maybe what I call the whole energy thing is what you call the way men present themselves and what women respond to, and actually we agree with each other. (Edit: but I still believe that some women are aware of it. )

I very much appreciate your sharing your personal experience and being so understanding and genuine.

Love,

Rose.

Edit: Oh, and I don't want a handsome, nice, good father and provider. And you know me. So it's not all girls you know.

[rei]

as in several of the other threads that are about men and women, could it not be that (some) women really do want AND respond to guys who are nice, handsome, genuine, good with children, safe provider potential... etc....

only (those same) women tend to be attracted to a confident, assertive expression of these traits? take charge but not jerky (then again, some women really want jerks, they believe they deserve it). James i can tell you have confidence and assertiveness, and i have no way of knowing whether you did in the past, so this is not meant as a personal attack

also, how is women responding to a decent game of chase related to women not knowing what they respond to (i know i respond to that better than constant availability even though i fancy myself a non-game-player)? and how is that related to the ideas of being nice, genuine, etc.?

seems to me a guy can be nice and all those other things, and he can play that game of chase perfectly, and still some women will just not be into him for whatever reason.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by cylon

You'd be surprised at how many people want anything that remotely suggests masculinity or dominance within a man, to sound like it's the work of the devil.

Yeah, I had this really sexist woman teacher when I was about 12 years old, who would go on about how men cause all the suffering in the world, and women are victims to it. She needed to find a more mature audience to hear her preach, basically. The whole class turned into chaos, and I think she had a nervous breakdown..

Also, when I was about 13 I remember a male come and talk to us about how in the past men have been pigs, in the discussion.

So I can definitely see what you're saying about masculinity being perceived as the work of the devil.

Back to the OP, I think Jerry Seinfeld talked about how what a women does for a job doesn't really matter for a guy, and how it's important for a girl on one of his shows. So I can see there's some truth in the song title. For that matter, Jerry Seinfeld dated a 17 year old when he was in his late 30s, so he definitely didn't go for status :P

I think we've all got our own way of influencing others socially though, and so the status thing isn't a matter of where you stand in the rat race, it's kind of how you function socially, I guess. So it's good to be conscious of it, I suppose..

It can be depressing to say "you need X, Y, Z traits" if you look at it that way..

[cylon]

Originally Posted by brendannz

So I can definitely see what you're saying about masculinity being perceived as the work of the devil.

.... yup.

Originally Posted by brendannz

For that matter, Jerry Seinfeld dated a 17 year old when he was in his late 30s, so he definitely didn't go for status :P.

She did though, she was just recently married when she met him, then dumped her husband. Three weeks after her honeymoon.

No, I don't think a woman's job is that important to MOST guys... but I don't want to speak for everyone. I'm sure some guys ARE interested in the financial/social status of the women they date though. Gold-digger isn't a term usually thrown at men but they are out there and I don't want them to feel like they are being marginalized in my comments.

But, I think a lot of guys just want a sweet girl that they think they can take care of. And even if she doesn't need that, she can play along a little to let us feel good about being the guy that keeps her safe and looks after her. It's the thought that counts.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Haha! Sorry Brendan.

You see, I am just now in the process of supporting a girl who is devastated because she was raped a few days ago, exactly by one of those guys who believe that girls don't really know what they want and what they say they want is not what they really want.

I guess I am just very sensitive to the consequences such beliefs can have at this time.

No problem.. was sorry to hear about your friend in that other post..

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by cylon

No, I don't think a woman's job is that important to MOST guys... but I don't want to speak for everyone. I'm sure some guys ARE interested in the financial/social status of the women they date though. Gold-digger isn't a term usually thrown at men but they are out there and I don't want them to feel like they are being marginalized in my comments.

Yeah, true, there are some gold digger males, and there are probably some girls who only date for looks..

[cylon]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Yeah, true, there are some gold digger males, and there are probably some girls who only date for looks..

Exactly. Have to include everyone.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Believing that people lack awareness is not empowering for anybody.

I think it's just that men and women usually can't consciously explain exactly what they are attracted to.. We're more emotion based.. even men aren't totally logical..

Or maybe people can explain what they're attracted to, but don't want to admit it, because it's un-PC what they're into.

[rei]

i can't help but ask this... hopefully i've earned the right...

Originally Posted by cylon

But, I think a lot of guys just want a sweet girl that they think they can take care of. And even if she doesn't need that, she can play along a little to let us feel good about being the guy that keeps her safe and looks after her. It's the thought that counts.

does this mean some men really are intimidated by a successful woman? and, can a woman neutralize that by treating him like her hero?

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by cylon

Exactly. Have to include everyone.

the gold digger male seems quite rare, but one time some old guy gave me some advice "stick your dick in the till"

That guy was a bit of a loser though, but it shows they do exist..

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rei

i can't help but ask this... hopefully i've earned the right...

does this mean some men really are intimidated by a successful woman? and, can a woman neutralize that by treating him like her hero?

Those are two different topics.

I don't know what it's like to be intimidated by a successful woman. I can't speak for that, I wouldn't know what it feels like. But I would think that a guy who would be threatened by that is so far out of the scheme of things that a real successful woman wouldn't register for him. The two simply don't go together. Confidence and self-esteem are sexy, period.

I think that two successful (and I'm assuming you mean successful and also smart, caring, loving etc woman) people can sort of challenge each other to be their best, so what may look like a battle of wills is really just a part of the game. It's a hell of a lot of fun, too. So, why the hell would a woman wan to "neutralize" a guy that is below her standards anyway?

Guys like to feel like they are making women's lives better and that they are safer because we're around. That's how we're wired. Call it the Tarzan and Jane dynamic if you will, but anyone who says that's a faulty attitude to have doesn't "get" a man's emotional needs, and doesn't understand what makes US feel loved, and appreciated.

(and yes, I realize I just generalized that all guys want to feel loved and appreciated, and I don't want to marginalize the guys that don't).

[James81]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Edit: Oh, and I don't want a handsome, nice, good father and provider. And you know me. So it's not all girls you know.

That reminds me of Mitch Hedburg's AIDS test:

So I don't get the regular AIDS test anymore, I get the roundabout AIDS test. I call up my friend Brian and say "Brian, do you know anyone that has AIDS? No? Cool... cause you know me.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by brendannz

That guy was a bit of a loser though, but it shows they do exist..

They're leeches though, neither person in that relationship is probably feeling all that great. For every gold-digger there's someone who is fine with having their gold dug.

[rei]

nothing to pounce on there as far as i'm concerned cylon

now i do think sometimes we use biochemistry as an excuse, but it can create powerful drives too. i just don't know how much accountability can be found in arguments that depend largely on chemistry. not that many people are trying to be fully accountable and completely conscious in dating-n-mating, but i imagine they are out there.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by rei

does this mean some men really are intimidated by a successful woman? and, can a woman neutralize that by treating him like her hero?

Depends how you term successful..

I think I'm much more interested in women who have a life, are intelligent and interesting and have goals, but if you find someone like that, then you kind of wonder whether your own achievements match up to it.. that's something I'm working on though..

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Back to the OP, I think Jerry Seinfeld talked about how what a women does for a job doesn't really matter for a guy, and how it's important for a girl on one of his shows. So I can see there's some truth in the song title.

You believe it to be true just because some guy said it? (<- Not meant in a mean way.)

For that matter, Jerry Seinfeld dated a 17 year old when he was in his late 30s, so he definitely didn't go for status :P

I'll be 31 in January and I'm dating a guy who just turned 19. He has neither money nor a job (he's a student) and no power or expensive car or any other status whatsoever.

I totally don't care about what job a guy has. What counts in my eyes is what a guy wants to express (his message) and if he has a conscious message to express in the first place. Not how he chooses to express it (his job).

I also pay a lot of attention to things like: does he take 100% responsibility for his life circumstances and feelings, or does he play victim? Does he let me be 100% responsible for my own stuff, or does he try to interfere? Does he have values and does he live congruently to them? Such things. Oh, and how good he is in bed.

In the end I guess it all boils down to energy. No matter how great someone is on paper, if the energy isn't right, nothing happens.

As a side note, I think for a man in his late 30's, dating a very young girl can be going for status: maybe not hers, but his own. Ooohhh I am being so meeeean...

Edit: Oh damn! James confused me. I forgot to say what I actually wanted to say: I agree with you Brendan, that statistically, I guess for many men the girl's job is not that important, whereas for many girls the guy's job is important. I guess that's because in the past the guys were the providers and we are still wired that way. (I don't know if it's "most" or just "many", but who cares)

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rei

i just don't know how much accountability can be found in arguments that depend largely on chemistry.

A girl who shows to a guy that she feels safe because he's around and appreciates him for that, is like the highest compliment a guy could ever get from a woman and can make him feel like he is really appreciated as a man. I don't think there's any "accountability" required as far as that goes, because there is nothing bad about that scenario. At least in my mind.

Seems like things would go smoother if more women were willing to let men feel that way instead of just having the knee-jerk "safe? I don't need you to make ME feel safe. I am a strong, empowered modern woman and have no use for your cave man trying to protect me garbage!"

Let a guy feel useful, gals! And even if you think you are a ninja assassain and can kill an entire ninja squad with your little finger, let the guys think you need him around for that stuff, too. That's how we know we're with someone who cares... for US.

[brendannz]

[QUOTE=Rose of Cairo;440851]

You believe it to be true just because some guy said it? (<- Not meant in a mean way.)

Jerry Seinfeld's really clever, but I know he's not god.. :P

I'll be 31 in January and I'm dating a guy who just turned 19.

I thought he looked a bit older than 19, or maybe you looked younger than 31, but I'm not sure, I don't focus too much on age, of a person, because I look about 5-6 years younger than I actually am, and I used to hear all the time from people how young I look, and it was getting annoying.

Out of curiosity, do you think he's quite mature? or that you're mothering him a fair bit?

In the end I guess it all boils down to energy. No matter how great someone is on paper, if the energy isn't right, nothing happens.

I agree with energy, that's why I said that I don't think men and women can consciously explain what they're into.

As a side note, I think for a man in his late 30's, dating a very young girl can be going for status: maybe not hers, but his own. Ooohhh I am being so meeeean...

I wouldn't think so, but I suppose it's possible. I know that some guys DO go for physically attractive women so they can win approval in the eyes of others

I agree with you Brendan, that statistically, I guess for many men the girl's job is not that important, whereas for many girls the guy's job is important. I guess that's because in the past the guys were the providers and we are still wired that way.

It could be unconsciously the role of mothering is more time-involved than the role of fathering (at least physically) and we're still wired that way..

(I don't know if it's "most" or just "many", but who cares)

I said earlier on that getting too caught up in formulas gets over-analytical, and defeats the fun of socialising in the first place.. But it's sometimes interesting to think about..

[Gracestars]

Hmmm... if this is the case - that women go for men with status - I guess I'm abnormal.

Generally speaking my personal version of status (or what I find attractive in a man) is someone who is a bit unusual, offbeat, creative, musical and cultured (knows about art, music etc and can teach me something about it) intelligent, not afraid to talk about spirituality or the meaning of life, and a physical attraction needs to be there too. Having said that, I do not care one bit how much money they make or what their day job is, as long as they have a passion and an eye for the beauty in the world.

I fully proved this to myself whilst on a recent holiday to the US where wealthy men (particularly in NYC) spent the entire interaction with me trying to prove to me how much status they had, how much money they earned, who they knew, where they lived etc etc etc. The wining and dining was fun, I'll admit it, but was I interested beyond that? NO. Boring! I couldn't help but think... "Can we talk about something else already? I really don't care how much money you make."

Needless to say the man that stirred my heart and continues to, was a broke dreamer, who impressed me with his ideas and met me on a soul level. On a practical level, yes he would need to get his act together, offer me some stability before it could work, but in terms of attraction he won.

[rei]

cylon, what you are saying makes sense. it is helpful to know how many guys are hoping to serve in a situation (edit: meaning how they would like to feel appreciated, what gives them purpose, not some kind of power dynamic intended with the word "serve"). i do know a lot of males like to be heroes, helping someone who needs it, and i think that is awesome! sometimes even women who say 'hmph! i don't need a man!' get a flat tire and are incredibly grateful if a guy happens to stop to help them. women's empowerment does not have to mean guys are no longer helpful, or that is not true for every empowered woman. but we've talked about that before

what i meant with that quoted statement... it's not so much the interpersonal stuff that i was talking about. i'm referring to having an individual belief system which largely explains the gender relation dynamics as a product of brain chemistry. while i don't doubt that what you are saying is true, i feel like it might be harder to remain truly accountable for our actions if we can so easily rely on neurochemistry as the reason/excuse/etc. for behavior. (geez i sound like a right-winger with all this personal responsibility rhetoric )

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Gracestars

Hmmm... if this is the case - that women go for men with status - I guess I'm abnormal.

Generally speaking my personal version of status (or what I find attractive in a man) is someone who is a bit unusual, offbeat, creative, musical and cultured (knows about art, music etc and can teach me something about it) intelligent, not afraid to talk about spirituality or the meaning of life, and a physical attraction needs to be there too.

Sounds like a successful artist/rock star.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by cylon

A girl who shows to a guy that she feels safe because he's around and appreciates him for that, is like the highest compliment a guy could ever get from a woman and can make him feel like he is really appreciated as a man. I don't think there's any "accountability" required as far as that goes, because there is nothing bad about that scenario. At least in my mind.

Seems like things would go smoother if more women were willing to let men feel that way instead of just having the knee-jerk "safe? I don't need you to make ME feel safe. I am a strong, empowered modern woman and have no use for your cave man trying to protect me garbage!"

Let a guy feel useful, gals! And even if you think you are a ninja assassain and can kill an entire ninja squad with your little finger, let the guys think you need him around for that stuff, too. That's how we know we're with someone who cares... for US.

I actually agree with this, from a female perspective anyway. However, a man with status or money won't necessarily be able to make a woman feel safe. I felt incredibly physically safe, travelling unknown territory in a country that wasn't my own, when I was with my broke dreamer. We "took care of each other" in a our different ways. Perhaps that's party why it worked.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by rei

what i meant with that quoted statement... it's not so much the interpersonal stuff that i was talking about. i'm referring to having an individual belief system which largely explains the gender relation dynamics as a product of brain chemistry. while i don't doubt that what you are saying is true, i feel like it might be harder to remain truly accountable for our actions if we can so easily rely on neurochemistry as the reason/excuse/etc. for behavior. (geez i sound like a right-winger with all this personal responsibility rhetoric )

That is interpersonal. Macro to the micro. My belief is that just about everything we think or feel, about our mates, and even about ourselves, is because it was helpful to the survival of our species. This includes all emotions and reactions we have to people.

We are human beings, we got to where we are because of the heritage that is in our genes. I really have no desire to "step outside" of what makes me a human. Your post seems to suggest that the fact that we are "wired" a certain way is wrong. That's how nature made us. It's perfect!

You seem to be equating that with some cruel, malicious force that is going around and destroying people.

All actions have consequences. Do something bad, the tribe locks you up or you get the firing squad. Human society has built-in, genetic ways of dealing with all sorts of social threats. So do other mammals.

[Gracestars]

Originally Posted by cylon

Sounds like a successful artist/rock star.

Ha. Maybe. I'm a bit of sucker for musicians, but so are many girls. He doesn't have to be successful at music however, just very interested in it, as I am. Besides, this is just one component of an overall package find attractive.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Gracestars

Ha. Maybe. I'm a bit of sucker for musicians, but so are many girls. He doesn't have to be successful at music however, just very interested in it, as I am. Besides, this is just one component of an overall package find attractive.

Guys like that tend to be pretty good at what they do, so they have a good chance of making it.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by cylon

Seems like things would go smoother if more women were willing to let men feel that way instead of just having the knee-jerk "safe? I don't need you to make ME feel safe. I am a strong, empowered modern woman and have no use for your cave man trying to protect me garbage!"

Let a guy feel useful, gals! And even if you think you are a ninja assassain and can kill an entire ninja squad with your little finger, let the guys think you need him around for that stuff, too. That's how we know we're with someone who cares... for US.

I understand what you mean, cylon. I can imagine how frustrating it must be for a guy who wants to play protector&provider to get confronted to such a response!

However, do you really think "letting him think" is respectful towards him?

I'm trying to become more feminine at the moment. As a result, I watched a whole bunch of chick flicks recently. What you're saying reminds me of "My big fat Greek wedding". In this movie, three women of a family decide something. But since the men want to feel like they're the head of the family, the women manipulate the father into deciding exactly what they want. They "let him think" he got the idea just for the sake of his ego.

Isn't that a bit the same? If we feel strong and safe enough without a guy, letting him believe that he protects us for the sake of him feeling needed and useful seems totally disrespectful to me. Wouldn't that be treating him like an idiot in some way? I wouldn't want to do such a thing, not because of my pride but because it would feel like ridiculing him.

Originally Posted by brendannz

I thought he looked a bit older than 19, or maybe you looked younger than 31

Impossible. There is no picture of us online.

Out of curiosity, do you think he's quite mature? or that you're mothering him a fair bit?

Mothering? Certainly not. Yes, I think he is a very mature and conscious person. Way more than I was at his age. Or I am the one who's childish. Anyway, I almost don't notice the age difference. Sometimes I just notice that in some things I have more experience. But that's not an issue.

I agree with energy, that's why I said that I don't think men and women can consciously explain what they're into.

I agree with you to some extent. Some people are sensitive to energies and highly aware of what's going on though.