Guys Go For Looks, Girls Go For Status?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by marinik

I think we are not talking about the same thing here. Substance is confidence, energy, charisma, integrity... compassion and so on... raw status is for me a person in a position of power of any kind that does not belong there by his capabilities but a lucky chance or something of the sort.

Sorry, very tired today. Spoke and wrote to many languages today.

We're talking about the same thing in a different way. All those positive characteristics are attractive to you and to other people, and people who have those qualities tend to acquire status. Those qualities indicate the man will have some sort of status and that's what makes them desirable in the first place.

Raw status is a bit different though, which is what I meant when I said that raw status relationships might not necessarily be "real" relationships.

For example some guy who is a miserable person to be around, could come into an awful lot of money or have a very high position in society, and there is no doubt that he will have access to more beautiful women than he can shake a stick at.

But, if he's such a miserable guy, is he having a "genuine" relationship? I doubt it.

But at the end of the day, no matter what kind of status the guy has, genuine inherent status or situational status, he has more options when it comes to women.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Indeed. A man could have status, but little to no substance.

There are plenty of those people in the company that I work for.

[Coffeesmurf]

You know, I think it's kinda depressing to see these sweeping generalizations and stereotypes - not only in this thread, but also in other threads with a similar theme. "All girls are attracted to guys with X, Y and Y traits", "men are attracted to women that are X, Y and Y", "nice guys are incapable of attracting women" aaaand so on.

While some things are attractive to most people, there's still room for a lot of varying preferences. Personally, looks aren't the top priority for me. My ex-girlfriend was "model hot" (no, really) but the girl I'm dating now who is much more "ordinary looking" is so much more attractive to me for a host of reasons: Her personality, common interests, a good sense of humor etc. etc.

If you read a lot of the PUA-material, it's like it's impossible to find a partner unless you exhibit all the traits of being an "alpha male" for instance. I don't know about you, but I know plenty of guys that are far from being "alpha", who are in loving, healthy relationships.

[cylon]

You're reading into it that it is "all guys".

Generalizations and stereotypes tend to come from some sort of truth. This IS how it is, for most guys. If you can't make educated guesses about certain things you can't study the underlying phenomena going on. The fact is humans have an awful lot in common. Men have an awful lot in common with the way other men think, and vice versa for women. An attractive woman can walk into a room, two guys will look at each other, and no words need to be said. Happens more than you think.

But everyone is free to figure this stuff out for themselves.

Most is not all. Never has been.

Don't be depressed by what you read. Be happy that it helps you to be even more clear on who you are as an individual.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

but the girl I'm dating now who is much more "ordinary looking" is so much more attractive to me for a host of reasons: Her personality, common interests, a good sense of humor etc. etc.

Actually, those things are making her more physically attractive to you. If you think about her looks the way you first met her, and her looks now that you know her better, I think you'd find that she is becoming physically more desirable to you than on the first day you met her.

[rei]

Originally Posted by cylon

Ouch.

my main point in saying that, aside from just giving an honest opinion (which was quasi-confirmed by someone else here) is that it is good to look for signals or even start out with one approach and be willing to change to something else.

also, once you learn to sort out what is a genuine expression of pleasure and what is just going through the motions, it's pretty simple. but i will acknowledge that some women are very very good actors. sometimes we don't really even want to engage in those activities but we do want the man to be happy so we do it for him. either that or because we get tired of him whining about it. similar sex drives solve a lot of this. so does open, direct communication about what we like and want.

[cylon]

I know what you meant, I just thought it was funny. I wasn't emotionally wounded from that.

That's pulling out the "make guy shut up really fast" card.

[Brutha]

Maybe after the above and other criteria are met, it would be a PLUS if he had lots of money too, but that is not my priority nor is it something that is a MUST HAVE as many of the other mentioned quailities are.

Do you really go through your list and put a mark from 1 to 10 after each of those criteria and add the points up?
I honestly don't believe that either males or female make decisions but what partner they want to date that way.
There might be some things like being homeless that are deal breaker on an intellectual level but in general dating decisions aren't intellectual decisions.

Status also usually comes with confidence. Having status is about being confident when you interact with other people who also have high status.
Status is about being in a position of leadership. You can't really lead people without being confident.

A quick example of how social stigma mars a woman's true feelings about something: Social stigma says that women want nice, slow, romantic sex. But I've never been with a woman who RESPONDED to that. The girls I've been with get more excited the harder/rougher it gets.

Maybe you are just not skilled at having slow romantic sex and therefore woman don't enjoy that kind of sex with you as much.

[rei]

LOL

i didn't know it was something i could keep in my bag of tricks. guess i had a bit of a scorpio bleed-through... if i want a guy to shut up i'll keep that in mind. i wasn't going below the belt (pun... intended) on purpose though.

i thought your tone was serious, not amused... next time you might want to add an emoticon or not, the confusion can be interesting as well.

edit: James, if that comment seemed personal or messed with your pride, i do apologize. like so many other things that have been said on this thread, i was making a generalization which is obviously not true for everyone.

[cylon]

I am known for being taken the wrong way.

It's kind of my thing though.

[rei]

ah right, i remember.
no, we wouldn't want to mess with your trademark style would we?

LOL at the ironically placating emoticon!

[cylon]

That was ironically placating wasn't it?

I'm going to have to remember use that phrase sometime.

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by cylon

You're reading into it that it is "all guys".

Well, it was more of a general thought on a host of threads lately, where a lot of the statements literally read like: "No one can be attracted to someone who's not blah blah.." - with no room for variation. I don't doubt the fact that most women find alpha males attractive, for instance - I'm just saying that's not always the case. A very shy and timid woman might not be attracted to a man who's extremely confident..

Generalizations and stereotypes tend to come from some sort of truth.

Sure, but so do a lot of prejudices - a lot of people in Denmark are sure most - if not all - americans are basically ignorant of the world outside the US - based on the fact that some americans (won't name names ) behave that way. They've made a sweeping generalization based on their own perception though the media, seeing as they've never been to the US themselves. I have a lot of friends in the US who prove that particular theory wrong, so I don't share their view.

Don't be depressed by what you read. Be happy that it helps you to be even more clear on who you are as an individual.

I think depressed was probably a stronger term than I intended to use - I'm actually quite happy

Anyways - I agree on a lot of things regarding what's attractive to most people, just wanted to point out the importance of not generalizing too much.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

A very shy and timid woman might not be attracted to a man who's extremely confident..

Or she might be attracted, but just feel threatened. We can be attracted to the qualities others have that we feel we lack. An extremely confident man could show her a completely new side of herself. Just a thought.

People can change though.. when I was more shy I was more attracted to more aggressive, outgoing women who pursued me, but now that I am more outgoing I'm more attracted to quieter girls who are more shy and sweet.

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

Sure, but so do a lot of prejudices - a lot of people in Denmark are sure most - if not all - americans are basically ignorant of the world outside the US - based on the fact that some americans (won't name names ) behave that way. They've made a sweeping generalization based on their own perception though the media, seeing as they've never been to the US themselves. I have a lot of friends in the US who prove that particular theory wrong, so I don't share their view.

Yeah, I'm not too concerned with what other countries think of America either. I voted for the other guy.

Anyways - I agree on a lot of things regarding what's attractive to most people, just wanted to point out the importance of not generalizing too much.

Cool. Well in my point I was basically saying that even if you don't find someone attractive, and you fall in love, your body and mind will create the attraction in you anyway. They will do whatever it takes to make you take care of business.

It's happened to me before, meeting a girl who I thought was extremely Plain Jane but over the course of time falling embarrassingly hard for her and then all of the sudden she's the most beautiful woman in the world... all her ordinary characteristics become her most attractive features. No matter how you slice it, physical attraction is extremely important and will create itself if it has to.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by cylon

That was ironically placating wasn't it?

I'm going to have to remember use that phrase sometime.

That could have been taken dry as well. I am genuinely going to use that phrase.

Man the muscles in my face are getting sore from all this emoting.

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by cylon

Actually, those things are making her more physically attractive to you. If you think about her looks the way you first met her, and her looks now that you know her better, I think you'd find that she is becoming physically more desirable to you than on the first day you met her.

Well, if I were to compare the two girls solely on physical attractiveness from the very first time I saw them then "model"-exgirlfriend would win, hands down - and you're right about the girl I'm seeing now. She has become more attractive to me as time went by.

Maybe it's just the difference between finding someone attractive as a long term partner and finding someone attractive just for sex

[James81]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Indeed. A man could have status, but little to no substance.

Status IMPLIES substance though. It's in the definition (which I posted above).

Oh, and just a comment about my "rough" sex talkl above. Someone PMed me and said I should probably clarify cause some men might take what I said as an encouragement for rape.

I'll just say that i hope none of the guys here are dumb enough to take it in that way.

By rough sex I mean like "hard and fast" type of sex. Not non-consentual sex.

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by cylon

People can change though.. when I was more shy I was more attracted to more aggressive, outgoing women who pursued me, but now that I am more outgoing I'm more attracted to quieter girls who are more shy and sweet.

That just goes to prove that you can be less "alpha" and confident and still attract women, doesn't it?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

That just goes to prove that you can be less "alpha" and confident and still attract women, doesn't it?

Absolutely. I was attracting the wrong women though. When I say that they were more aggressive I should have said that they were a little insane and unstable and dangerous.

The nice girls, the ones that I would have had a good relationship with, were waiting for me to talk to them and getting annoyed that I wouldn't because I wasn't playing the game the way nature laid it out. Which meant we were incompatible anyway. I wasn't at the level I needed to be. It wouldn't have lasted.

Now that I appreciate that it's really my job to take the lead in at least initiating contact, I have a deeper appreciation for those quiet girls who were waiting for me to walk up and say hi.

Just a mental shift one goes through I guess.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by James81

Oh, and just a comment about my "rough" sex talkl above. Someone PMed me and said I should probably clarify cause some men might take what I said as an encouragement for rape.

I feel sorry for those hypothetical guys.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by James81

Status IMPLIES substance though.

I agree, it usually does.

[rei]

Originally Posted by cylon

That could have been taken dry as well. I am genuinely going to use that phrase.

Man the muscles in my face are getting sore from all this emoting.

i was away from my computer, but yes - i think i actually assessed your tone accurately. call guinness.

you can steal my phrase as long as you're sure to credit the smart, funny, gorgeous and quirky woman who created it.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by JSB

I suspect that most women are attracted to certain qualities in men (confidence, energy, charisma, etc.), rather than their raw status, but that these qualities are the ones that in turn enable such men to attain high status if they so choose.

I totally agree. I believe it's the qualities behind the status that are truly attractive, not the status itself. (Not to all women though. To most of them? Or just many of them? I don't know.) There are guys with these qualities without the status, and they are just as attractive.

Originally Posted by rei

sometimes the noises women make are a product of conditioning more than genuine enjoyment.

This is sad, but based on what I've heard, true.

generalizations will pretty much be false every time. status may matter to some people, not others.

I agree.

Originally Posted by James81

My point is that what woman say they want and what they respond to is two different things.

I hate this kind of "women don't really know what they want" mentality. It very easily leads to the belief that "When women say no, they actually mean yes"... and that tends to lead to rape.

What you're saying is probably true for women with low consciousness who don't know themselves well. Just as it is probably true for men with low consciousness who don't know themselves well!

Social stigma says that women want nice, slow, romantic sex.

Really? Never heard of that before! Women can be such beasts in bed.

In my experience, some women want nice, slow, romantic sex. Some women love rough, hard, even violent sex. Some women are fond of passionate, hot, sensual sex. Some women want kinky, crazy, dirty sex. Some women prefer playful, flirtatious, even funny sex. Women want all kinds of sex. And many women want different kinds of sex depending on many factors, like the situation, their mood, their partner's mood, and not to forget, the time in their cycle! Because that plays a big role too.

Good lovers are those who are able to be flexible and adapt to that. And who are good at nice, slow, romantic, rough, hard, violent, passionate, hot, sensual, kinky, crazy, dirty, playful, flirtatious, AND funny sex. There aren't many of them. Or is that a limiting belief of mine?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

There aren't many of them. Or is that a limiting belief of mine?

Quite possibly.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I hate this kind of "women don't really know what they want" mentality. It very easily leads to the belief that "When women say no, they actually mean yes"... and that tends to lead to rape.

What you're saying is probably true for women with low consciousness who don't know themselves well. Just as it is probably true for men with low consciousness who don't know themselves well!

I never said that women don't know what they want. I just said that women don't understand what they respond to. Those are two separate things.

And I don't think that that has anything to do with levels of consciousness.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

You know, I think it's kinda depressing to see these sweeping generalizations and stereotypes - not only in this thread, but also in other threads with a similar theme. "All girls are attracted to guys with X, Y and Y traits", "men are attracted to women that are X, Y and Y", "nice guys are incapable of attracting women" aaaand so on.

I think to guys looks are more important, and to girls, what he does for a job is more important.

But, I agree it can get kinda depressing. It was just a fun song, I was listening to, and I was hoping this thread didn't get taken too seriously, to the point of PUA vs feminist warfare..

I think being too caught up in formulas defeats the fun and purpose of social interactions, personally..

[rei]

Originally Posted by brendannz

to the point of PUA vs feminist warfare..

I think being too caught up in formulas defeats the fun and purpose of social interactions, personally..

here here!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by brendannz

It was just a fun song, I was listening to, and I was hoping this thread didn't get taken too seriously

If you don't take things seriously they tell you you're off topic.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by cylon

If you don't take things seriously they tell you you're off topic.

Yeah, I was meaning I didn't want it to be taken to the point of it being a rape discussion..

but seems it hasn't gone that crazy...

[James81]

And let me go back and touch on something here lest what I say be misconstrued. When I say that a woman tends to not know what she repsonds to, and that "what they say they want and what they really want are two different things," that does NOT mean in any way shape or form that you should disregard what she is saying and do something anyway.

For example, in the case of rough sex, when I said that women tend to respond to rough sex more positively than romantic sex, that does not mean that if she says she doesn't want it rough that you should disregard that. Even if the sex is consentual, and you do something she tells you she doesn't want, then that's more along the lines of rape, even if you think she likes it.

What I'm encouraging you, as men, to do, is to pay attention to a woman's ACTIONS rather than her WORDS. When a woman says she doesn't want something, that just means you aren't in tune with her and what she really wants. If she's not responding positively to you, then you need to stop what you are doing and take a different direction. Don't just blindly force yourself onto her thinking that you know what she wants even if she doesn't. That's not how you go about it.

You keep changing up what you do until she DOES respond positively or until your reach a limit of where you've had enough and it's not something you can do so you walk away.