Hurt by bf pretty badly..help please?

[misscheerios2]

I have had my bf for almost 2 years. I love him, but he has hurt me a few times flirting with other girls on facebook and trading sexual texts with one of my college roommates. That damn near broke my heart. I found all of this out by snooping on his phone, facebook...anything I get my hands on. He also used to have a nasty habit of intimidating me by pointing out "more attractive" women when we were out together in public. That hurts almost unbearingly. I didn't have self-esteem issues, but started to worry about myself in new ways because of him. I explained to him that he was hurting me, and he stopped a lot but not completely. I feel insecure like any girl could take my place when I am devoted to him. I actually am tearing up badly as I write this. He told me he will change but I can't get over it. He always says he'll change! He does usually make considerable change but I have this extra baggage...I have trouble getting over what he's already done. I can't leave him and idk why...I love him still very much. And the last few times I saw him he was so sweet and nice...reminding me why I loved him in the first place. But I can't get over my paranoia about what he might do and I don't trust him much at all. What do I do? I'm feeling hurt but attached at the same time. =( I know I'm one of those pathetic women who cannot do what's right for herself I guess...but he is my first serious romance.

[IFeelGood]

Hi Cheery,
Based on your bf's actions, it seems like it is time to dump him. If he is texting sexual messages to your roommate and telling you that you are not as attractive as other women, why give him any more opportunity to continue hurting you?

There are a lot of nice guys out there who would treat you much better than that. Think about why you are choosing to be with a man who is insulting you and use this as a learning experience. Since this is your first serious relationship, I am sure that there are many things you have discovered about yourself and what you want from a partner/lover/bf, etc... Next steps might be to think about what kind of man do you want to attract into your life? what is your ideal relationship?

You set the standard for how you want to be treated. If someone is not respecting you and giving you what you want, it is usually a sign to move on.

[James81]

Maybe you should try doing a "pros" and "cons" list. And be honest about it and see what you come up with.

I think your gut is telling you what you really need to do, but your heart is playing mind games with you. He's not hurting you, you are hurting yourself sweetheart.

[Holistic Star]

If he didn't change would you still want to be with him?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I think that you should make your decision based on who he is today, and who have proven to be in the past, not who you want him to become in the future. From what you describe, it sounds as though this behavior has been going on for some time. When you confront him, he changes (or covers up his actions better) just enough to pacify you.

If you are happy being with him for who he is today, then by all means, stay with him. Staying with him in hopes that he will change, however, is just setting yourself up for disappointment and misery.

The fact that you trust him so little that you are going through his phone spying on him should tell you something. If he did suddenly change into the boyfriend that you want him to be, would you be able to trust him entirely? Or would you still find it hard to trust him based on these things that he has done? I believe that a good relationship is built on love, honesty, and trust. If you can't trust him, then you're wasting your time.

[The Big D]

I always find it kind of unfortunate when I encounter a relationship so perfectly described by ladder theory, but when it's right it's right.

Here's what's going on: your BF is probably already having sex with at least one more attractive woman. If not, he certainly feels he could do so if need be. He keeps you around because he's not opposed to you per se (quite likely because you have sex with him, although you haven't stated that you do), but he treats you like **** because keeping you isn't a high priority for him, whereas he knows it's a very high priority for you.

Ultimately you'll have to decide if whatever other merits he has (and they may well be substantial, or you wouldn't put up with this) are worth the negative consequences of not being his preferred sexual partner.

[Diandra25]

I know I'm one of those pathetic women who cannot do what's right for herself I guess...but he is my first serious romance.

so...you already know what is right for you,right?

and you also know that he is your FIRST romance...you have plenty of time to meet men that respects you.
and i know that you think that this is serious...but do you actually feel it?can you be honest with your heart and say that your relationship is helping you to evolve?to be a better person?to share a deep bond with someone?

i think you know...so decide based on what the answer is..

[IFeelGood]

Originally Posted by The Big D

I always find it kind of unfortunate when I encounter a relationship so perfectly described by ladder theory, but when it's right it's right.

Here's what's going on: your BF is probably already having sex with at least one more attractive woman. If not, he certainly feels he could do so if need be. He keeps you around because he's not opposed to you per se (quite likely because you have sex with him, although you haven't stated that you do), but he treats you like **** because keeping you isn't a high priority for him, whereas he knows it's a very high priority for you.

Ultimately you'll have to decide if whatever other merits he has (and they may well be substantial, or you wouldn't put up with this) are worth the negative consequences of not being his preferred sexual partner.

What is this ladder theory? this sounds like some PUA or something like that. How many men are actually into this stuff? Why not just be yourself, be honest and move on when the gig is over? Why all of these games?

[Milena]

Imago Relationships

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by IFeelGood

What is this ladder theory? this sounds like some PUA or something like that. How many men are actually into this stuff? Why not just be yourself, be honest and move on when the gig is over? Why all of these games?

Ladder Theory is an internet thing; google it

Basically it states that a girl has 2 ladders, her guy friends and her guy lovers. While the guy friends are nice guys who she uses for intellectual entertainment, and the guy lovers are these ******* outlaw bikers who she uses for sex..

While a guy doesn't want female friends, he only wants to talk with females so he can sleep with them.

It's not in any way affiliated with PUA, but PUAs may be more likely to believe it.

OK, I don't want anybody to shout at me "That's not true, you're just bitter and frustrated," I just answered somebody's question.

Plus if we want to discuss this further, how about it be taken to the "What is a nice guy" thread by Johnny Soporno

[brendannz]

misscheerios2;

If being with him is making you feel less loved, or less loveable, then it's time to take a break from this relationship, or look elsewhere.

Or you could cheat on him or talk about hot guys around and see how he feels..

All the best.

[IFeelGood]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Ladder Theory is an internet thing; google it

Basically it states that a girl has 2 ladders, her guy friends and her guy lovers. While the guy friends are nice guys who she uses for intellectual entertainment, and the guy lovers are these ******* outlaw bikers who she uses for sex..

While a guy doesn't want female friends, he only wants to talk with females so he can sleep with them.

Ok, but how does this relate to the OP and her issue? She is dealing with a man who is cheating on her and showing interest in others. It seems like he is looking for a way out. Are you saying that the ladder theory would mean that her bf is one of those guys SHE is using for sex but because he is an outlaw biker (lol) he is going to treat her badly as well?

I prefer not to move my question to the Soporno thread b/c that doesnt seem to apply here.

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Ladder Theory is an internet thing; google it

Basically it states that a girl has 2 ladders, her guy friends and her guy lovers. While the guy friends are nice guys who she uses for intellectual entertainment, and the guy lovers are these ******* outlaw bikers who she uses for sex..

While a guy doesn't want female friends, he only wants to talk with females so he can sleep with them.

It's not in any way affiliated with PUA, but PUAs may be more likely to believe it.

OK, I don't want anybody to shout at me "That's not true, you're just bitter and frustrated," I just answered somebody's question.

Plus if we want to discuss this further, how about it be taken to the "What is a nice guy" thread by Johnny Soporno

While popularizing the concept of the "friends ladder" was clearly the crowning achievement of ladder theory, it's not what's really relevant to this thread. What is relevant is the concept of the "ladder disparity":

The Ladder Theory

This is the situation where one partner is very attracted to the other, but the reverse is not true. The result is EXACTLY the type of unbalanced relationship the OP describes, with the less attracted partner in the dominant role.

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by IFeelGood

Ok, but how does this relate to the OP and her issue? She is dealing with a man who is cheating on her and showing interest in others. It seems like he is looking for a way out. Are you saying that the ladder theory would mean that her bf is one of those guys SHE is using for sex but because he is an outlaw biker (lol) he is going to treat her badly as well?

I prefer not to move my question to the Soporno thread b/c that doesnt seem to apply here.

He didn't explain ladder theory well at all. Just read the site starting at the beginning, and it will make sense how this scenario fits in. It likely has nothing to do with outlaw bikers (which ladder theory reminds us aren't the most attractive after all) or with the friends ladder and has everything to do with a ladder disparity.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by IFeelGood

Ok, but how does this relate to the OP and her issue? She is dealing with a man who is cheating on her and showing interest in others. It seems like he is looking for a way out. Are you saying that the ladder theory would mean that her bf is one of those guys SHE is using for sex but because he is an outlaw biker (lol) he is going to treat her badly as well?

I prefer not to move my question to the Soporno thread b/c that doesnt seem to apply here.

ladder theory says guy who treats her badly, gets to date her, which is how it came to be here. & read what Big D said

[IFeelGood]

This theory doesn't resonate with me for many reasons that would be a whole new thread. It seems to have been created by a very bitter and sexually frustrated man.

Also, I don't think is is very helpful to the OP.

[brendannz]

[QUOTE=IFeelGood;439033]

This theory doesn't resonate with me

Neither

Also, I don't think is is very helpful to the OP.

Agreed

[Johnny Soporno]

I'm sorry to be the one to point this out, but it will ultimately be better for you to take this into consideration now, rather than to be blindsided by something both explicable and predictable.

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

I have had my bf for almost 2 years.... but he is my first serious romance.

In that case, your relationship might well be based principally in infatuation - the hormonally guided, irrational sensation of the object of one's infatuation's possessing 'ideal characteristics', despite their having objectively obvious faults or emotional inequities.

If this is the case, it is reasonable to expect that his 'chemically augmented' enthusiasm for you (and yours for him) would have begun to wane by now, as infatuation normally lasts somewhere between a single day, and around eighteen months, under normal circumstances. (ie, unrestricted access to one another, and a degree of reciprocity in terms of attraction)

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

I love him, but he has hurt me a few times flirting with other girls...

What you are actually saying is, you are suffering because he is no longer demonstrating exclusive sexual interest in you.

This is NOT 'his hurting you', it's something which you are experiencing internally, as a response to the disappointment of discovering his enthusiasm for you is not what you'd hoped it would be.

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

I found all of this out by snooping on his phone, facebook...anything I get my hands on.

Let me start by pointing out that to me, these trespasses would constitute an inexcusable offence, one which would require immediate termination of any relationship.

Please consider that by doing so, you have not merely violated his privacy, you have demonstrated that YOUR emotions are more important to you than his, which denies genuine love, as love requires that your beloved's happiness be intrinsic to your own.

In genuinely reciprocated love, each party is guided by their independent necessity to ensure the continued happiness of their beloved, and they therefore consciously demonstrate appropriate sensitivities to their partners needs and desires.

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

He also used to have a nasty habit of intimidating me by pointing out "more attractive" women when we were out together in public. That hurts almost unbearingly. I didn't have self-esteem issues, but started to worry about myself in new ways because of him. I explained to him that he was hurting me, and he stopped a lot but not completely.

Did he explicitly express that these women he pointed out were, to his eyes, "more attractive [than you]" or did he just point out women he saw as particularly attractive, and you inferred that he was doing this to hurt you?

From what you're saying here, it sounds more like he was innocently pointing out women he found attractive, much as he might point out an exotic and sexy sports car which drove past; not to say "You're not as sexy as that sports car" -- but rather just sharing his tastes with you.

Take a moment to consider: Was he INTENDING to make you feel minimized and diminished by sharing his opinion with you, or did you merely interpret his comments as hurtful and destructive to your ego?

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

I feel insecure like any girl could take my place when I am devoted to him.

The 'fear of loss' is a powerful enemy - one which often corrupts the person who experiences it.

It is urgent for you to remember, you can not OWN another person, all you can do is endeavour to remain their 'best option', so that they will CHOOSE to be with you.

There is NO WAY to force a person to love you - the very idea sounds ridiculous! But when in the throes of madness (such as jealousy) it is easy to forget this fact, and to give-in to your fears, and behave abominably!

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

He told me he will change but I can't get over it. He always says he'll change! He does usually make considerable change but I have this extra baggage...I have trouble getting over what he's already done.

If your relationship is to continue, you'll need to be very open and direct with him, and communicate consciously - you'll need to help him recognize that YOU require that he be sensitive to your weakened self-esteem, and that he avoid expressing ANY interest of ANY sort in ANY other woman, while you work through YOUR issues. (Yes, I am being very direct here in pointing out that the issues here appear to be entirely your own!) And that you are fully committed to changing, because you recognize that the contention here is based in YOUR lack of confidence in yourself.

NEVER FORGET: Jealousy is the madness inflicted by ones ego upon themselves when they fear that, GIVEN THE CHOICE, their beloved would not choose them.

Why would you WANT to be with someone who wouldn't freely choose to be with you? Isn't THAT insane?

Once you establish that your beloved ALWAYS has the choice (whether you are there to witness it or not) then you can derive your joy from that they HAVE chosen you, as is evidenced by their being with you!

In other words, no matter what your BF does outside of your sight, INCLUDING flirting with other women, masturbating to porn, having erotic email conversations, whatever - if he returns to you, and this is what you want, then you have ev erything you need!

If this is NOT what you want, then you need to negotiate with him, and come to a mutually acceptable understanding about what constitutes acceptable actions - but be SURE that you both 'buy in' to the agreement, or ultimately it MUST fail.

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

I can't leave him and idk why...

You can't leave him because your fear of loss is too great. You believe that without him, you are incomplete, and lack security.

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

I love him still very much. And the last few times I saw him he was so sweet and nice...reminding me why I loved him in the first place.

Sounds like you've been proving the old adage: If you love something, set it free - if it returns, consider it yours. If not, it never was.

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

But I can't get over my paranoia about what he might do and I don't trust him much at all.

If you don't trust him, you don't love him. Remember, loving someone means that YOU are at least as concerned about their happiness and welfare as you are about your own - and if this is true, you'll encourage your beloved to do whatever they believe is appropriate for them, reassuring them that your love and appreciation persists.

Originally Posted by misscheerios2

What do I do? I'm feeling hurt but attached at the same time. =( I know I'm one of those pathetic women who cannot do what's right for herself I guess...

Please take to heart what I've written here - If your love is genuine and reciprocated (not merely limerace or infatuation) then you need to conquer your fears of abandonment and loss, and to communicate your recognition of this need directly to your BF.

Best of luck!

Johnny Soporno
Relationship Counsellor

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by The Big D

While popularizing the concept of the "friends ladder" was clearly the crowning achievement of ladder theory, it's not what's really relevant to this thread. What is relevant is the concept of the "ladder disparity":

The Ladder Theory

This is the situation where one partner is very attracted to the other, but the reverse is not true. The result is EXACTLY the type of unbalanced relationship the OP describes, with the less attracted partner in the dominant role.

I don't necessarily agree - I believe the OP's relationship is likely much less unbalanced than she has perceived; the very fact that her BF still considers himself her BF, and pays attention to her distress (by agreeing to 'change') and clearly treats her well, outside of her perception that his pointing out attractive women is an attack against her.

On another forum, one populated overwhelmingly by self-defeating 'Ladder Theorists', I spent many hours trying to help them to realize that 'Ladder Theory' is intrinsically solipsistic, and that if the FRAME of ladder theory is abandoned, it is entirely possible to enjoy perpetual sexually-enhanced friendships, (as I have done my whole life.) Please check out the specific thread (as I'm hoping not to have to repeat everything over here! )

Johnny Soporno
Sexual Revolutionary

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by IFeelGood

This theory doesn't resonate with me for many reasons that would be a whole new thread. It seems to have been created by a very bitter and sexually frustrated man.

Also, I don't think is is very helpful to the OP.

It's not a matter of resonance, it's a matter of correctness - unpleasant but right is still right. Also, the theory has nothing to do with sexual frustration. It explains who's having sex with who, and why, and how they interact.

It PERFECTLY describes what's happing to the OP, and why. Ask yourself this: If the roles were reversed and he found her incredibly attractive while she knew she could be do better, would we be having this thread?

[Nimo]

Hey,


I don't remember the title to his book but Dr. James Dobson says to cause a 'crisis' in the relationship that will force the man to get back to his senses be it moving out, holding your position on a certain issue, acting different from how you would normally...the essence is to destabilize him, to cause him to start thinking different about the situation.Maybe he does really love you but you are too needy and available.

What i would suggest you do is to cause a crisis of your own desire. if you live together, move out (note do not threaten to move out verbally, pack a bag and leave...or make sure he finds you packing), if he has a key to your house, change the locks and ask the door man not to let him in...something that is drastic( note: not meant to embarrass him, rather, to tell him that there has been ' change in management'). do not call him during this separation, not even to know if he has taken his medicine..if he is man enough to flirt, he is man enough to take his meds.

Do not initiate contact and when he contacts you (which he will- getting to that in a moment), answer his call, respond to his message with calmness and
self control. do not yell or argue (restrain yourself even if you have to literally bite your tongue). the reason for this is to concretize the idea that you are a changed woman and longer bothered by his behavior...he may trigger you by flirting with another girl in your presence so as to stoke your fire and force you to explode (or act in a manner similar to what he is used to/ familiar with - whining, crying etc). he is comfortable when you act this way because he knows how to handle you.


Your period of separation needs to be long enough for him to miss you... now this is the hard part...men can take forever to act.. do not be intimidated.HE WILL CONTACT YOU IF HE LOVES YOU or at least if he wants to talk. Hold out until he does. It is when he contacts you that he will want to meet you (as above) or talk. otherwise and here is the hard part..if he doesn't call then he wasn't that into you and the job is cut out for you..move along.

i promise you that when he comes for you, he will such a changed man you will want to marry him (DONT...not immediately though)..sense will now reside in his head.

I read his book when my relationship had started to go sour.. i pulled a crisis he will never forget. while i could call him up to 10 times a day and many of them calls go answered, today, he will call me at least once a day to check up on me..just to say hi. i do not call, text or email anymore. i could go all crazy if he as much as mentioned another girls name, now i do not care if he tattooed their names on his forehead. i was jealous of his lady friends but now, WHATEVA!!!

suffice to say the crisis worked better for me...

Try it..or better still dump him while you are still ahead.

All my love sweetie and all zi best.

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by Nimo

i promise you that when he comes for you, he will such a changed man you will want to marry him (DONT...not immediately though)..sense will now reside in his head.

In my opinion it's more important that she changes as well, in terms of setting boundaries on how she wants to be treated. And she should focus on building her self-confidence.

I'm glad though this crisis approach worked out for you!

[IFeelGood]

It's not a matter of resonance, it's a matter of correctness - unpleasant but right is still right.

To YOU this is right and you have every right to your opinion and live your life on a ladder if you wish... to ME, when I say ladder theory doesn't resonate with me, I mean I don't agree with the theory so to me it is wrong

It PERFECTLY describes what's happing to the OP, and why. Ask yourself this: If the roles were reversed and he found her incredibly attractive while she knew she could be do better, would we be having this thread?

Yes, there are similar threads with the gender roles reversed and I am not sure what you are describing is her situation in the first place.

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by IFeelGood

Yes, there are similar threads with the gender roles reversed and I am not sure what you are describing is her situation in the first place.

You missed the point. it's not an issue of gender role reversal. Ladder theory acknowledges that the disparity can run either direction. In fact, they gave examples of both.

The issue here is that she's on the wrong side of the disparity, not that she's female. If the disparity ran the other direction (ie. she was more attractive to her partner than he is to her) the dynamics of the relationship would be entirely different. That's all ladder theory is saying here.

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by IFeelGood

To YOU this is right and you have every right to your opinion and live your life on a ladder if you wish... to ME, when I say ladder theory doesn't resonate with me, I mean I don't agree with the theory so to me it is wrong

Not agreeing with something doesn't make it wrong. To cite the trivial example, you can disagree with gravity all you like, but you'll still be affected by it just as much.

[IFeelGood]

Originally Posted by The Big D

Not agreeing with something doesn't make it wrong. To cite the trivial example, you can disagree with gravity all you like, but you'll still be affected by it just as much.

Yes ,but who is to say you are RIGHT and I am WRONG because I disagree with your theory?

There are millions of conflicting ideas/opinions/theories in this world and what makes it interesting is that (in America and many countries, at least) we are entitled have our own.

For example ask 5 people random questions such as the following and see how different we all are: In which God do you believe or not believe? What is the best diet? What is the best flavor of ice cream? What is the best way to meet a man/woman? What is the best type of relationship? What is the best method of describing how men and women relate to one another?

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by IFeelGood

Yes ,but who is to say you are RIGHT and I am WRONG because I disagree with your theory?

First off, it's not my theory.

Second, the way to tell theories that are wrong from those that are right or close to right is to check the predictions the theory makes against observed reality.

In this case, the observations match the prediction in as much as the OP provided detail, meaning that this serves as another data point confirming ladder theory.

[IFeelGood]

Whose reality are you referring to? Not mine..

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by IFeelGood

Whose reality are you referring to? Not mine..

That's nice.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by The Big D

Not agreeing with something doesn't make it wrong.

True, except when dealing with something which, though fundamentally subjective, is stated as an absolute, like The Ladder Theory, or similar assertions, such as "Chocolate tastes better than vanilla."

Originally Posted by The Big D

To cite the trivial example, you can disagree with gravity all you like, but you'll still be affected by it just as much.

That is not actually an example, since the 'Theory of Gravity' makes no attempt to explain Gravity, it merely gives it a name, and details its [obviously observable and predictable] effects.

"Ladder Theory" is solipsistic and validates its assertions only when viewed through its own prescribed preconceptions and perceptions.

If one 'opts out' of accepting the effects of Gravity, one cannot proceed to operate in ways which demonstrate that the "Theory of Gravity" does not apply to THEM, whereas if one 'opts out' of accepting the presuppositions of "Ladder Theory", they can and should be able to prove it does not apply to them.

A 'Gravity Denier' would need to be able to float effortlessly above the ground, or move extremely massive objects without effort or energy, just as a 'Ladder Theory Denier' must be able to develop and maintain limitless ongoing, non-overriding "friendly & loving" non-exclusive sexual relationships with his (gender appropriate) friends.


Johnny Soporno
Ladder Theory Denier