What defines a "Nice Guy" and how to avoid becomming one!

[Johnny Soporno]

It is critical to distinguish between a "Nice Guy" and a "good guy" (or "great guy", etc).

To my reckoning, NOBODY respects a "Nice Guy", because they explicitly do not respect themselves. They demonstrate this continuously, by being unwilling to stand-up for themselves.

The "Nice Guy" mistakenly believes that if he says "No", or fails immediately to insist that he assist at every opportunity, he will not be "liked".

A "Nice Guy" is UTTERLY concerned that women "like" him, perhaps even that EVERYONE likes him... so much so, that he abandons his own needs and wants.

In the process of constantly supplicating to others, thanklessly, he generates a HUGE degree of resentment, both in his own mind (against those who 'fail to see what a nice guy he is, and therefore don't choose to date him', as well as in the minds of those people whose 'asses he is kissing', because THEY can sense that his 'altruism' is laden with implicit obligation, and that he is expectant that they will ultimately appreciate him.

However, doing things for people who don't wish it, or feel they deserve it, will NEVER generate appreciation - it will only generate contempt. This is a very hard lesson for most people to learn, but it is ESSENTIAL if a "Nice Guy" ever wishes to transcend from his self-imposed Hell.

Alternatively, most everyone respects and appreciates a "Good Guy", one who is happy to help when he's asked; happy to offer his assistance when it is not too inconvenient for him; follows through with commitments, (because he doesn't "over-commit" as a result of being unable to say "no"...); and values his OWN time and effort, so he doesn't give it away to the unappreciative.

Johnny Soporno
Lifestyle Guru

[brendannz]

People like niceness from other people,

it's just that if somebody is always trying to please you, you think that they have no life of their own...

I remember back in high school there was this really unpopular "nice guy" who wanted to be friends with everyone in the school. Then one day in class he was sitting next to me, and he had an itchy thigh, so undid his belt to scratch it, so I started a rumour that went around the whole school that he was masturbating in class.

He was quite stressed about it, but I told him "just don't worry about it, the more you react the more they'll hassle you" but he didn't pick up on it, and later on he told me "YOU RUINED MY LIFE!"

Now his facebook status's say "I am working overtime again, because it is fun and there are always ways you can add value to your company!"

I feel a bit sorry for him

Other than that, I can't think of any annoying doormat nice guys, all my friends are nice guys, but none are "nice guys"

But if I was a girl, I'd probably have some annoying nice guys hitting on me...

[Tristan Bull]

I keep seeing these types of threads and to be honest the best thing someone could do if they are a "nice guy" or if they just want to become a better man and have happier and healthier relationships is to check out David DeAngelo's stuff.

I'm not affiliated with him or anything I just can speak from experience that what he teaches is gold and if the majority of guys in this section checked out his material they wouldn't have most of the problems they do.

Peace,
Tristan

[chrisrushton]

couldn't agree more, especially about the overcommitting and being unable to follow up on your obligations. i was brought up like that and it took me 20 years to realize what i was doing wasn't what i knew i should be doing and even more time to undo the damage.

it was totally worth it though. i respect myself completely now. i never realized that what i was doing wasn't self-respecting but as soon as i figured it out, my whole life changed. again, totally worth it.

also, johnny, a few of my friends went to your seminar in leeds a few months ago. i wish i'd been able to go, it sounded insightful. i've got a picture of a sheet with the 6 A's on my phone to remind me wherever i am, how i should interact with people (just incase i forget or need a guide for a difficult situation)

[Holistic Star]

The Heartless bitches have a lot to say on the matter!

Heartless Bitches International - "Nice Guys = BLEAH!"

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by brendannz

I remember back in high school there was this really unpopular "nice guy" who wanted to be friends with everyone in the school. Then one day in class he was sitting next to me, and he had an itchy thigh, so undid his belt to scratch it, so I started a rumour that went around the whole school that he was masturbating in class.

Yeah, in high school someone did something really similar to my brother. He was bullied relentlessly about it, even though it was a complete lie. Eventually it got so bad he had to change schools to get a fresh start.

High school kids can be so cruel.

[JSB]

As former "nice guy", I've found that the same behavior will be interpreted differently by others purely based on what is behind that behavior.

In the past, I'd do something for a woman when she asked me to because I was afraid she wouldn't like me if I said no; I thought that being helpful, etc. would lead to her being attracted to me (it rarely did).

As I matured, I found that I could still be helpful, "nice", giving, etc. and have others react positively as long as I did it because I genuinely wanted to and as long as I didn't worry about their reactions.

The same external behavior elicited different responses from others when the intention and attitude behind it changed.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Yeah, in high school someone did something really similar to my brother. He was bullied relentlessly about it, even though it was a complete lie. Eventually it got so bad he had to change schools to get a fresh start.

That sucks, Yeah in this case, everybody knew it was false and nobody really cared, except he took it quite seriously, unfortunately :-(

High school's a really toxic environment..

[minervana]

What Johnny Soporno is describing is someone who is paralyzed by fear of public opinion. This isn't being a "nice guy" so much as a doormat.

The opposite extreme is being a brute, who treats people horribly. That's no good either.

If you're worried that you're becoming a Nice Guy, then try saying "no." Not to everything, just to things you're not sure if you want to do. Even if it's helping somebody move or something "nice."

You might also try not doing anything for anyone else for a month. Be totally selfish. Yeah, you'll lose friends, but probably not good friends.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

It is critical to distinguish between a "Nice Guy" and a "good guy" (or "great guy", etc).

To my reckoning, NOBODY respects a "Nice Guy", because they explicitly do not respect themselves. They demonstrate this continuously, by being unwilling to stand-up for themselves.

The "Nice Guy" mistakenly believes that if he says "No", or fails immediately to insist that he assist at every opportunity, he will not be "liked".

A "Nice Guy" is UTTERLY concerned that women "like" him, perhaps even that EVERYONE likes him... so much so, that he abandons his own needs and wants.


Johnny Soporno
Lifestyle Guru

I really like the distinction between 'nice guy' and 'good guy'. Obviously same goes for 'nice gal'. Nice gals wonder why they never get the good guys, but only the jerks who treat them like manure and leave for their next big conquest. It's because jerks know who to target, gals with low self esteem who never learned to value themselves or say NO to inauthentic maneuvers.

[cylon]

So when a guy sleeps with a girl, he's supposed to assume it will be forever and ever amen, and if that's not the case, he's a jerk? That seems unrealistic to me.

Now if you're talking to guys who lie and say they love a girl when they don't, yeah they are jerks. But relationships take time to build and there's a lot of variety in this world, it would be abnormal to want to cut off all that variety forever unless there was real, compelling reason to do so.

BTW I don't think there is such a term as "nice gal". I think you just made that up so as to not feel women are being excluded from the discussion.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by cylon

So when a guy sleeps with a girl, he's supposed to assume it will be forever and ever amen, and if that's not the case, he's a jerk? That seems unrealistic to me.

Now if you're talking to guys who lie and say they love a girl when they don't, yeah they are jerks. But relationships take time to build and there's a lot of variety in this world, it would be abnormal to want to cut off all that variety forever unless there was real, compelling reason to do so.

BTW I don't think there is such a term as "nice gal". I think you just made that up so as to not feel women are being excluded from the discussion.

Not sure if this was directed at my post. If it is, I'm not sure where you read "guy sleeps with a girl" in my post. And what do you mean there is no such thing as "nice gal"? Of course there is. "Nice guys" don't own the field. I don't need to make up terms to include myself in a discussion. Your post is full of silly ASSumptions.

[cylon]

I didn't say you were a nice gal. I said you tried to co-op the term so women wouldn't be excluded, every thread on this forum that mentions something regarding men usually has women come in and say "women too, women too", this topic is obviously about something specific to men. But, hey, no biggie.

As far as sex, when you said "conquest" I figured you meant sex, a guy goes after a girl "conquers her" then moves on. Sex is usually implied in that sentiment, maybe you meant "conquest of getting a free sandwich" or something.

[MidasGirl]

I used to be a 'nice gal'. That's how I know they exist. I've known many women too who would attest to having been nice gals, especially in teen to mid-20's. It's the 'nice gal' zone. Yikes.

When I say men who treat them like **** and are off to their next big conquest, I don't mean just sex, though sex is often a part of it. But I'm certainly not one of those people who think women are being taken advantage of just cuz they are having sex with someone who isn't committed to them forever. I believe women ought to (and many do) enjoy the sex just as much as the men do, even when it's a one night stand. But yeah, there's more to jerks than just having sex and leaving.........

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by cylon

I said you tried to co-op the term so women wouldn't be excluded, every thread on this forum that mentions something regarding men usually has women come in and say "women too, women too", this topic is obviously about something specific to men. But, hey, no biggie.

To be honest, Cylon, there DEFINITELY are 'Nice Gals' who set themselves up to be trod upon, in precisely the same ways as 'Nice Guys' do - the only major difference is that "Nice Guys" don't usually have ANY sex, excepting occasional "mercy ****s" from the women they passive-aggressively hound. "Nice Gals" have sex with guys whom THEY WISH would stick around, but who come to despise the "Nice Girl" nearly immediately, and flee.

Originally Posted by cylon

As far as sex, when you said "conquest" I figured you meant sex, a guy goes after a girl "conquers her" then moves on.

I can appreciate that - so much of English is pre-charged negatively against consensual recreational sex.

Women refer to other women whom a particular man has had sex as "conquests" (whereas I have NEVER heard a man refer to any woman as a "conquest") and disparage them for having failed to fend them off.

Women complain about men's "game playing" while they learn, and reteach(!) that "to catch a man, you need to "Play 'hard-to-get'" - thereby feigning indifference or worse, to force the man to become more heavily invested in his eventual conquest!

Every woman's most-critical fear, when it comes to having sex with someone new, is NOT for her reputation - THAT is just a side-effect of her true fear.

It is her fear of 'FEELING USED' which terrorizes her, and prevents her from consummating more readily, despite her desires and urges. She figured that if she is seen to be 'too easy' by men, they will all merely want to 'use' her.

"Nice Gals" invariably end up 'feeling used', and despite the fact that had they not been such doormats, they would most-likely have begun ongoing healthy relationships with these guys, they complain bitterly about how rotten men are.

Johnny Soporno
Sexual Revolutionary

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

To be honest, Cylon, there DEFINITELY are 'Nice Gals' who set themselves up to be trod upon, in precisely the same ways as 'Nice Guys' do - the only major difference is that "Nice Guys" don't usually have ANY sex, excepting occasional "mercy fcuks" from the women they passive-aggressively hound. "Nice Gals" have sex with guys whom THEY WISH would stick around, but who come to despise the "Nice Girl" nearly immediately, and flee.

Yeah there are weak pushovers of both sexes. Maybe it just comes from being a guy but this term "nice guy" to me means a guy who basically doesn't get girls at all, other than the mercy screws or rebounds you mention. It's a socially awkward guy who is more often lonely than not. At a base level, like most women, these "nice gals" still are never alone or without someone. So I don't see how the two mean the same thing. She may be with the wrong guy, but she's always got a guy. When it comes down to the bare necessities of at least having human companionship, the girls always come out on top.

Seems Midasgirl was talking about a person with weak personal boundaries. I'm talking about the "Nice Guy" stereotype of a guy who just can't relate to people and watches everyone else get laid (or having relationships if that's his desire). Including the nice gals, who are always in relationships, and have no problem getting sex. But I guess we all have our own definitions.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

"Nice Gals" invariably end up 'feeling used', and despite the fact that had they not been such doormats, they would most-likely have begun ongoing healthy relationships with these guys, they complain bitterly about how rotten men are.

My take on this is women should then put their money where their mouth is (or walk the talk, however you want to put it). There are plenty of guys out there that would love to marry the woman on the first date, buy them flowers all the time, and basically turn their lives over to these women forever, yet they are absolutely ignored by women. Women may complain about feeling used, yet THEY are the ones who are hooking up with these guys. Obviously there is something about being pursued by a "jerk" that these women are responding to. If they didn't, they'd be with the nice guys right?

[Holistic Star]

Originally Posted by cylon

There are plenty of guys out there that would love to marry the woman on the first date, buy them flowers all the time, and basically turn their lives over to these women forever, yet they are absolutely ignored by women.

That sounds more like a stalker! That's not nice, it's scary!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

That sounds more like a stalker! That's not nice, it's scary!

No it's not nice. This is why I've mentioned that I hope someday this term "nice guy" is seen for what it really is. It has two meanings. A guy will genuinely say of another guy "he's a really nice guy" and it's meant as a compliment. But they don't mean it in the same way.

[Holistic Star]

So why do you think 'nice girls' would want to hook up with someone like that? There's a reason these guys are being ignored.

Besides I thought all the 'nice guys' were chasing their perfect 10s and ignoring the more homely looking 'nice girls'.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

So why do you think 'nice girls' would want to hook up with someone like that? There's a reason these guys are being ignored.

Besides I thought all the 'nice guys' were chasing their perfect 10s and ignoring the more homely looking 'nice girls'.

No girls want to hook up with guys like that, unless they are just masculine females who get off on pushing guys around. My point was that often women say they want an attentive guy like that, but when it happens, it creeps them out, like you said. So they go back to what they really want, a guy who is in charge of himself.

[Holistic Star]

I misread your post then. When you said that women ignored these kind of guys, it sounded like you were judging them for it. Rather than acting sanely!

I agree with you about the differing meanings of 'nice guy'. It has a sliding definition. By the terms of the thread what women want for a relationship is a good guy. Not someone who is so full-on that he wants to dedicate his life to her. Not such a jerk that he is using her simply for ego gratification. But someone who knows his own mind, likes to do nice things and spend time together but has a spine too. I dunno - a smart person maybe?


I also disagree about nice girls being able to get all the sex they want. I've known a few in my time who couldn't pull for toffee. I remember when I was 22 and on a workplacement and my co-worker asking me how to get a boyfriend because she had never dated anyone. And no, she wasn't unattractive, but incredibly shy and unconfident.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by cylon

My point was that often women say they want an attentive guy like that

would love to marry the woman on the first date, buy them flowers all the time, and basically turn their lives over to these women forever

I have honestly never heard a woman say this is what she wants in a man. Or met a man who wanted to do that.

[cylon]

It's awesome to be you.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by cylon

This is why I've mentioned that I hope someday this term "nice guy" is seen for what it really is. It has two meanings.

Gender specific meanings are ANOTHER irritating fact of life.

Consider the innocuous word "interesting" -

When a man uses it, it generally has a positive, promising frame around it.

Man 1: "What did you think of Gary's new boots?"

Man 2: "Interesting!"


When used by a woman, especially TO another woman, it means something entirely different....

Woman 1: "What did you think of Sarah's new boots?

Woman 2: "They were... Interesting."

Same word, basically the same structure - OPPOSITE meanings.

Originally Posted by cylon

A guy will genuinely say of another guy "he's a really nice guy" and it's meant as a compliment.

Yes - and, actually, a woman will often say the same about a guy whom she believes is genuinely nice. BUT when the TERM "Nice Guy" is bandied about, it normally comes in two varieties:

A woman might says "He's such a 'Nice Guy'" as a way of apologizing for her not finding him compelling, or sexy.

A MAN self-describes as "I'm a "Nice Guy" overwhelmingly when he is ACTUALLY a self-serving prick. (Ladies, am I right on this one? Have you discovered that NO MAN who described himself as a Nice Guy was ACTUALLY nice?)

Johnny Soporno
Cunning Linguist

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Woman 1: "What did you think of Sarah's new boots?

Woman 2: "They were... Interesting."

LOL. Womankind encapsulated in an ellipses. I hear what you're saying.

It's true, I've heard women say "nice guy" and it was very much a compliment and meant she thought a guy was worth getting to know better. I think today a guy hears that term and if he really is one of those negative-definition nice guys, he'll take it the wrong way. "I am not a nice guy! No I am not!"

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I used to be a 'nice gal'. That's how I know they exist. I've known many women too who would attest to having been nice gals, especially in teen to mid-20's. It's the 'nice gal' zone. Yikes.

I think people like nice-ness. It's just that guys and gals need to be nice to THEMSELVES as well as others..

Most nice guys fail in relationships, because they put women on a pedestal, that basically do nothing to deserve to be there. Maybe nice gals do the same thing, I dunno..

At high school, I was an *******, and then after high school I decided I needed to be nicer to people, but you only get 24 hours a day, and you've got to work on your own stuff and yourself, so you can't spend all your time being everyone elses doormat, you've got to be nice to yourself as well.

and plus from personal experience, you don't really get to know people if you put them on a pedestal and be overly-nice to them...

I don't think people really like arrogant bastards who only care about themselves, it's a 2 way street, I think, give and take..

But everyone makes mistakes along the way, that's how you learn..

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Or met a man who wanted to do that.

I knew a guy who bought a girl flowers after being rejected to a first date by her. She was a nice gal but wasn't a "Nice gal" she joined the police, and had the personality to match..

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by cylon

It's awesome to be you.

I find it surprising when someone confidently makes a claim about what many or most of a particular group of people think/like/want/do, and that claim conflicts totally with my personal experience. Is it not valid to comment on that?

I don't think there's any need to be snarky about it.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by cylon

LOL. Womankind encapsulated in an ellipses. I hear what you're saying.
"

I remember once hearing a girl complain about another girl saying "ohh.. she's a... nice person" about her.. LOL

I never really thought about the double meaning at the time, and figured this girl was just an impossible to please person..