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| | #31 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Off this forum from 10/27/10 to 10/27/11. Yay me!
Posts: 2,944
| I think nice-ness in the context that it is used here means "weak". Very true that people who are nice to themselves first are attractive no matter which gender they are.
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| | #32 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Off this forum from 10/27/10 to 10/27/11. Yay me!
Posts: 2,944
| Quote:
If you ask a woman who's having a hard time finding a good guy what kind of a guy she's looking for though, almost invariably the first answer you hear is, 'I want a guy that is nice to me'. So I think many guys are trying to be that for women without really realizing what exactly is meant by it. Women really mean they want the opposite of jerk, but with the other attractive forces that will create the polarizing attractive energy. I haven't gone through all of your material, but the little I've gone through shows that you distinguish yourself from other PUA teachers who seem to be telling guys to turn into jerks to get women. (at least that's the way it comes across). We don't want our "nice guys" turned into jerks, there are already enough jerks out there as it is. | |
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| | #36 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere
Posts: 9,713
| Quote:
a word (or few) about the example of gender specific language use... i'd also say, sometimes people of both genders will use the word "nice" or the word "interesting" as a polite way of saying a person or situation is not their cup of tea. example: (a woman or a man, to a friend of the same gender) "how was your date with x?" "it was ... interesting." now, if the person who answers doesn't care about being polite or considerate (and some people of both genders like to be polite and considerate), that person may answer with something like "it was a train wreck! i had absolutely nothing in common with him/her and don't know why i agreed to the date!" so i think this is something both genders have in common, depending on how much the person makes an effort to be respectful and courteous. | |
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| | #38 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
| Quote:
I have always believed that the girls reputation (or loss thereof) was more important to her because of evolutionary reasons. For example, if other girls found out she was having sex with a lot of men, she may very well have been banned from the village. | |
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| | #39 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 185
| Quote:
Prehistoric human females most likely mated with whichever and however many unfamiliar 'itinerant alphas' happened to be in the vicinity when they entered estrus (ovulation). (Males born with the alpha temperament and ambition, but who were too immature or insubstantial actually to overthrow the reigning alpha in their family - usually their sire (father) - would have had to strike out on their own, 'lone-wolf style' due to their inability to take orders and "behave" in their own packs) The other females would certainly not have cared about this action, and the males unafflicted by the overabundance of androgens which designated the potential alpha caste, would have been sublimely unaware of this action on the part of the females. Johnny Soporno Evolutionary Psychologist | |
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| | #40 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,225
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Going back that far we get into matriarchal societies where the connection between sex/babies had not been established. Women were mysterious baby makers and worshipped as Goddesses. I think once men eventually figured it out and became territorial over their woman and babies there were arranged pairings. Not always based on simple alpha male concepts but a range of things- intelligence, hunting skills, family status, material items to trade... By the New Testament times marriage was still an arranged thing, the whole man/woman, romance/love thing didn't start until later with the troubadors and their radical new ideas on love. Before that love was more for God. The church tends to play down those things, they don't let on how archaic they were on matters of love during a time that they still talk lots about. |
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| | #42 (permalink) | |||
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 185
| Quote:
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It is this very thing which has CREATED the 'Nice Guy' phenomenon in the first place: Mothers teach their daughters that they should 'hold out' for Mister Right. their "Prince Charming" who will ride in on his white charger, wearing gleaming armour, and carry her off to a fabulous castle in which they will live Happily Ever After, and raise a glorious family. This teaches women to seek out a man who is at once attractive, masculine, dominant (in the make-decisions, take-charge sense) charming, independent, noble, responsible, compliant, appreciative, thoughtful, kind, considerate, and mature, while also playful and supportive, a good provider and protective of his wife & children, AND exclusively attracted to and faithful to her. Since that combination of traits contains many which are mutually exclusive, or at least highly unlikely to occur simultaneously, the young women sets an unrealistic standard and is therefore prone to disappointment OR denial. "Nice Guys" believe that they need to BE all those things, at once, and that if they endeavour to present themselves as such, they will ultimately be selected as Mister Right, eventually. This represents a self-sabotage of the highest magnitude, and leaves them miserable and full of resentment - and inspires misery and resentment in others. Q.E.D. Johnny Soporno Lifestyle Guru | |||
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| | #43 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 185
| To help people understand what a "Nice Guy" truly is - and why it is SO CRITICAL that both women and men alike help these passive-aggressive self-defeatists to become LOYAL TO THEMSELVES FIRST - because there is NO HAPPINESS possible for either these "Nice Guys", nor for those who indulge them through pity or guilt. Ah! Clearly you didn't read the OP! In it I explain that "Nice Guys" are actually the MOST sleazy guys, because the don't just betray their own interests, but they also inflict their own misery on the objects of their infatuation, converting otherwise sweetly natured and positive women into seemingly heartless shrews, who either flee the alleged "Nice Guy", or ultimately begin abusing his so-called generosity. Quote:
Ironically, my reason for wanting people to visit my threads was to help ensure the messages contained within them were not overlooked in the vast deluge of posts made on this forum daily. Now that you mention it, I really SHOULD be directing people to my "Intro to Seductive Reasoning 101" seminar, which is available for free downloading or streaming, and may be redistributed freely as well. Johnny Soporno Worthy Playboy & Lifestyle Guru | |
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| | #45 (permalink) | ||
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
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Man, I didn't think this forum would challenge my beliefs on this level. Thank you guys Quote:
Isn't this the number 1 reason of terrible treatment of women in the world today (i.e. Middle east/ devout religious areas)? Quote:
Infatuation has always been around has it not? Now, thanks to you guys, I know a little on how societies looked like in the past, but is infatuation (love) a chemical byproduct of a females reaction towards 'alphaness'? And is that same infatuation the culprit behind 99% of every "unfaithful" escapade? Also, can you guys recommend some books on this prehistoric stuff IFeelGood, sorry mate, I believe I'm gonna sin and click on his link anyways Cheers guys | ||
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| | #46 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,612
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So I guess the guy thinks "that's my problem I'm too nice" confusing world sometimes I guess. | |
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| | #47 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
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I used to be like this, and still am actually to a certain point. It's quite hard to come to terms with. Especially if, in the past, not giving in resulted in violence (although thankfully, I wasnt really in that much of a desperate situation). | |
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| | #49 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
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From there on, my shyness just got worse and worse. But thankfully, nowadays I'm not that ultra shy anymore, although I do still need to work on it Last edited by Falco; 11-02-2009 at 02:51 PM. | |
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| | #50 (permalink) | ||
| Family Member Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,612
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[QUOTE=Falco;438481] Quote:
I quit basketball for about 10 years, and took it up again, and it's totally taken me back to my childhood, i seem to be a natural at the game, can't wait til the next NBA game on TV... but at the moment I've got a bad back, and am resting from it.. Quote:
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| | #51 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 185
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Used to describe a person of low character; dishonest; disingenuous; and unworthy. Sleazy Definition | Definition of Sleazy at Dictionary.com Anyone who, in an effort to satisfy an immediate goal (such as seducing someone through misrepresentations of their true nature) falls into the "sleazy" category - whether they are "Nice Guys" or "Jerks" aside Johnny Soporno Cunning Linguist | |
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| | #52 (permalink) | ||||
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 185
| Quote:
Our 'biological imperative' on an evolutionary level is NOT to "pass on our genes", nor to 'survive and replicate' - but rather to facilitate the passage of our parents' genes. A father's desire for his children to be "his own" is entirely an egocentric, 'reasoned' position, rather than an intrinsic natural drive. Once the relationship between fertile soil and fertile women became obvious to primitive man, and the notion of property took hold, as men began to believe that they could OWN WOMEN; and to they feel that without that relationship, they couldnt believe their offspring were truly "theirs". It is critical to understand that there are three discrete aspects to every child's paternity: Biological Father (ie, successful sperm donor) Nominal Father (ie, the 'father of record', the one who's surname the offspring is assigned) Actual [or 'de facto'] Father (ie, the one who accepts the ROLE of 'father' and provides for/nurtures/protects the child, and whom the child envisions as 'daddy') Now, in an ideal world, all three aspects are presumed to be the same man; at least, according to 'polite society'. But human evolution suggests differently, and that PRIOR to easy-access to birth control pills/condoms, the odds weren't good that more than two of the three aspects were the same man. BUT TWO OUT OF THREE AIN'T BAD! And if you raise a child as your child, and love it as your child, are proud of it as your child, and IT BELIEVES YOU ARE IT'S DADDY -- then you are its father, in every significant respect. Quote:
A marriage was originally a publicly recognized transfer-of-ownership of a man's daughter to her new owner (husband/master). This has lead to tremendous cultural misogyny and resentment throughout the ages as women have endeavoured to keep the true heredity of their children from the men who mistakenly presumed biological paternity. Quote:
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Sperm Wars by Robin Baker The Red Queen by Matt Ridley The Mating Mind by Geoffrey Miller The Evolutionary Biology of Human Female Sexuality by Randy Thornhill These ones are all very insightful and educational, in my opinion. Johnny Soporno Sexual Revolutionary Last edited by Johnny Soporno; 11-02-2009 at 04:48 PM. | ||||
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| | #53 (permalink) | |||
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
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Thanks Johnny, for taking the time to write such an in depth explanation, I really appreciate it I will definately check out those books, I'm truly fascinated with human biology and the way we evolved. Quote:
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| | #54 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,133
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Hi all. I'm not looking to derail this thread, but Johnny seems to have a very interesting perspective on relationships that on the surface may strike some people as unsavory but really seems to be genuine, positive, and respectful of both men and women. Johnny, do you have any thoughts on traditional monogamous relationships? I have nothing against polyamory, it's just not my thing (unless I'm just casually dating)--- for me personally, the "disadvantage" of sexual exclusivity is made up for by the "advantage" of increased intimacy that comes from traditional fidelity. (I'm not preaching anything here; everyone should live whatever type of lifestyle is best for them.) Which elements of your material do you find most applicable to more traditional relationships, or which elements translate best, if not applicable in their original form? |
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| | #55 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 140
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I know I am stereotyping it but that's what they do. This really made me post for the first time in Johnny's threads. Anyway. Great message from Johnny, it's good to see somebody takes the "man development" from a more intelligent point of view than PUA. Appreciated. And.... Last edited by MC Kejml; 07-10-2010 at 12:20 AM. | |
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| | #56 (permalink) | |||||
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Northern California
Posts: 3,030
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I think the same rules go for men and women in this regard. "Nice" is a behavior and/or social style. It's not a character trait. One can be a complete snake and still be nice. One can be a good man or woman but be a total jerk. Just to haul out my favorite site... Sometimes someone is nice and bad: Affably Evil - Television Tropes & Idioms Sometimes good is not nice: Good Is Not Nice - Television Tropes & Idioms If people are often more attracted to the "bad boy" or "bad girl", I think that what is often going on here is that the bad boy/girl may actually be more *authentic*. Actually, I think Steve has talked about this. We know what their score is. At some level, many of us know when someone is being inauthentic with us. Something about the person's energy just won't match up... it will feel "wrong" somehow, and if we are healthy people, then we won't be attracted. "Nice" is just a set of social behaviors, nothing more. Many "nice" people have their own special way of being jerks. They just do it in a sneaky, dishonest kind of way. Quote:
When we describe someone as a "nice" person in a non dating context, what goes along with that? We usually mean that the person acts somewhat submissive, smiles a lot, is a "pleaser" and isn't interested in causing trouble. It probably would do us women a lot more world of good to be more precise in describing what we want. Wanting a man who is "kind" for example, is different from one who is "nice"; these have two different meanings. Quote:
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Actually, no, it really is. Often times we women will say "it was nice" and really mean "it didn't TOTALLY suck". Because we tend to be more effusive, if we REALLY liked it, we would've said "it was so totally AMAZING! It was FABULOUS!". Quote:
They are often complete jerkasses in their own special way. At some various points in my dating life, I decided to give some "too nice" guy a "chance", only to discover that he was passive-aggressive, sneaky, controlling, and in fact, worse than the guy who had a more blunt and confrontive personality. I've dated women too, but I'm not sure that it's relevant to this conversation since we mainly seem to be talking about men. I think that men and women do mean different things by "nice" though. Finally, in a way that's relevant to this site... When we polarize people into "bad boys" and "wimpy nice guys", that's all we see and all we'll draw into our experience. It is I/M at its finest and most simplest example. Probably most people are not either bad boys or wimpy nice guys, but somewhere in between. There are plenty of other examples of people who are good people who are not wimpy and passive, but typically your filters aren't programmed for them. It's easier to see them in the professional world than the dating world. Some examples: we expect a good doctor or nurse to be confident about their job and blunt when it's necessary, but we also prefer that they be diplomatic about it... yet *not* dishonest. I don't like to date the supplicating, lapdoggy kind of people, and it's not because I am just not attracted to them for some reason I can't fathom. It's because I've known too many, and even dated a few, and they were without exception the most miserable relationships I've ever been in. Ditto for the relationships I've observed between others and "nice" people. We need to be precise about our language when speaking about what we're looking for. Look for "kind" as well as "good" (BOTH of those traits - otherwise you may end up with a jerkass who has outstanding moral values), and maybe "gentle" if that's your cup of tea (it's not everyone's). Nice does not mean any of these things. It means something else. Last edited by pyrogen; 07-10-2010 at 10:45 PM. | |||||
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| | #57 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 77
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There's nothing wrong with being nice so long as you have self-respect. When you respect yourself you won't be taken advantage of. Respect yourself and you will naturally hang out with people who respect themselves with others, not having to worry about people who would take advantage of you being "too nice." Ryan Biddulph |
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| | #58 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 185
| Quote:
When you have a moment, Ryan, please read the original post What defines a "Nice Guy" and how to avoid becomming one! Johnny Soporno | |
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| | #60 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,612
| Quote:
EDIT: today a cop let me off for being 10km over the speed limit though, so I guess there's a time and place for being a nice guy Last edited by brendannz; 08-14-2010 at 01:18 PM. | |
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