Leave or stay? (pua related)

[Fox]

Hi,

this is something I've been about to write for a while.

I have a problem and it's pretty hard to describe. In short: should I end my relationship or not?

Some background:

I'm a 23-year-old guy whose puberty took place very late. It didn't do any good to my self-esteem. It made me reserved and I became somewhat outsider. In my twenties I realized I'm pretty good looking guy. Plenty of women seemed interested but I was too reserved and had no idea what to do. In 2007 my conclusion was that it's just courage what I'm missing.

So I tried to train that. Got a "girlfriend" for a while but never ended up having sex with her. In May 2008 I asked a wonderful girl out. She rejected me. In August I decided to talk a random person every day for a month. I found it awesome. At the same time I became aware of the pick up culture. So soon I had joined an online community and there I continued my project to get rid of my ridiculous social phobias. I kept a public journal there and they encouraged me and told me what I was doing wrong. I was surprised how popular it became- I was surprised how popular I became at the University and pretty much everywhere I went. Soon there were more girls around me than I could have imagined.

Finally in 2009 I lost my virginity (at the age of 23). With the girl who had rejected me in May 2008.

I got the girl I had liked the most from the very start. We have been together for 9 months now.

And back to the problem...

What annoys me in the current: this relationship decreases my social life. I can't be as free as I would like to be. How? I can't talk with people the way I did. Just ask a random girl for a coffee for example. That's because 1) the girl I'm asking will consider that as flirting, 2) my girlfriend considers that as flirting and 3) maybe I actually am flirting (lol).

Picking up women gave me the key to get among people. And now it has been taken away from me. It wasn't just women. I got to know men too this way. This is the best way to get friends so far. And why can't I do it now? Well, maybe I have just lost my courage. I don't feel free enough to get to know people as much as I want to (this is especially true when I'm out with my girlfriend). Or maybe I have just lost a purpose. Nothing forces me to be socially courageous. Picking up women was at the same time an excuse to get friends.

It's also difficult to tolerate the idea that this is the only girl I'm going to have sex with in my entire life. Ok, this is my ego talking. But here's the catch: being with this girl in the first place was also ego based. Like showing to the world that I can have a girlfriend. To look normal.

And one thing more: She wants children. Certainly not now but one day. (In 5 years or more.) I feel myself too young and too irresponsible to even think about it. I feel I'm not ready for any of this. The problem: We are a wonderful match. She's like my best friend and my lover at the same time. And when it's like this there's no such a great urge to get among people anymore. The consequence is... my happiness level varies a bit too much according to how my girlfriend happens to act.

Maybe I'm addicted to the positive attention I get from people.

I never thought it this far... it was an absurd idea enough to lose my virginity. I never really decided to start a relationship. It just happened that way. I've been considering whether I should be in this or not almost from the start.

Courage rocks. Screwing up rocks. Clinging to safety does not. I've tried to point my courage elsewhere but... well... It's just not that fun. (Yes, I do have other passions in my life but they don't have much to do with people.) Every day back then was either a victory or a defeat and I enjoyed both. Courage was like cash you could you buy Life with. And every person around was a walking opportunity. This pua thing might have messed up my head but it has done a way more good than bad to me.

I feel like I need fresh air. I need a fresh start. With or without her. I love life too much. I don't want to waste my life by being stuck. The foundation of this relationship was a bit shaky. It's like I need room to become the person I'm about to become.

In next spring my girlfriend going abroad for 5 months. That sucks. Or it gives me a great opportunity to live without women for a while. But the question is: should I leave her or not?

(If someone managed to read this far, I'd appreciate any comments. )

[rekcuF]

Reread what you just posted. You don't need anyone to tell you anything, you already know what you want.

Since you're into this PUA stuff, you need to watch Transformations and Blueprint from Real Social Dynamics.

[ellie]

Leave

[cylon]

Think about what Pook said about how it is natural for the bird to want to be free, and it is unnatural for the bird to fly willingly into the cage. You have been caged and its going against your true nature. The cage of course is a monogamous relationship and all the expectations that come with it.

Your solution is to redefine the terms of the relationship to one that suits you better, and that is on YOUR terms, not hers. She is of course free to refuse and end your relationship. But you don't have to be bf/gf "just because that's how everyone else does it". You're free to define what "relationship" means to you.

This is what happens when you get better with women... you think the goal is to get a girlfriend, but what you end up realizing is that the process of meeting new people and having unique experiences is really what makes you feel the best inside. You were under the faulty assumption that having a girlfriend was the goal when you had a scarcity mentality, now with an abundance mentality you realize, not having a girlfriend is the goal! There's an "abundance" of amazing people and experiences out there, and you don't want to miss out on them. This is what's known as a "good problem" to have. Good luck.

BTW there's really nothing PUA about your situation. This is the oldest story in the world.

[ssandra]

Does it hurt more to stay or to leave?
Does it make you happier to stay or leave?

There is your answer.

I´ll let you in on a little secret... Everytime so far I have broken up with somebody was very difficult. There were always good sides in the relationship, just that the bad started to outweight the good.

It is normal that you feel hurt and after you brake off you will need to allow some time to mourn the relationship.

But the way your write about it, it feels as if you have outgrown this relationship. it is time to move on.

[garentee]

Talk to her about this.You may be able to work something out that gives you the freedom and lets you keep a good relationship. Growth happens very often during relationships and communication is the key for fostering growth between the two parties of the couple. You are 23, there is A LOT of life out there.. you can experience it with or with out her, point is that you will experience life either way. Your choice... Personally if it is a good working relationship with high levels of communication it is worth it to invest in it..

[James81]

You already know what you need and want to do. It's littered all throughout your posts. You just feel obligated to do the "right thing" except the right thing is just a construct you've put there yourself.

All signs point to what you truly want to do in that post. But can you see it?

[Fox]

Thanks for the comments.

Originally Posted by ssandra

Does it hurt more to stay or to leave?
Does it make you happier to stay or leave?

I simply don't know. It hurts to stay, it hurts to leave.

Originally Posted by garentee

Talk to her about this.You may be able to work something out that gives you the freedom and lets you keep a good relationship. Growth happens very often during relationships and communication is the key for fostering growth between the two parties of the couple. You are 23, there is A LOT of life out there.. you can experience it with or with out her, point is that you will experience life either way. Your choice... Personally if it is a good working relationship with high levels of communication it is worth it to invest in it..

Yes we have talked about this. And when we do, like yesterday, we just end up crying. She's willing to build this. And I'm at the same time building and destroying.

We have big fights when we are out together. Hanging with people makes me alive. She blames me of being cold towards her. She feels I don't treat her as my girlfriend when we are out. I don't do this on purpose. My focus is just on other people. It's important to me and she knows it. We have talked about this and she admits that her focus is too much on me. She's afraid of losing me.

She's easily jealous. So am I actually (something that she doesn't know). I have learned to understand social interactions a bit too well. So I don't feel very good when some guy gets her attention. I might overanalyze everything. I'm not afraid of losing her but deep down I'm just hurt if I think she's fantasizing of some guy. (Which is just stupid.)

We can communicate and she is willing to improve herself. She really wants this to work. And I have never have such a deep connection with anyone.

Originally Posted by James81

You already know what you need and want to do. It's littered all throughout your posts. You just feel obligated to do the "right thing" except the right thing is just a construct you've put there yourself.

All signs point to what you truly want to do in that post. But can you see it?

I'm just wondering... Am I willing to leave due to wrong reasons? Just avoiding pain. Being a pua seems so narcisstic. They are no longer obsessed with a certain girl- they are obsessed with women/people in general.

And if this relationship doesn't work then what will? Or is anything ever meant to work (as cylon seems to put it)?

Previously I was very afraid of what other people think of me. Especially those who were close to me. I believe i still am. Can't leave because it makes her hate me and turns her cold. And when I imagine a world without her, everything feels cold and empty.

There was time when I mostly preferred to be alone because the world was cruel. Now it's difficult to be alone, I'm either addicted to my gf or other women. i.e. positive attention. The more people I have around the less one bad interaction hurts.

She says if I leave her now, she doesn't want to be friends with me. She suggests we could be together to spring and then she goes abroad. And when she comes back we could just see if there's anything left.

What I wanted you to tell me? I don't know. I hate to stay and hate to leave.

Maybe I'm trying to fill some empty part inside me with this relationship. Deep down I want to be accepted. And it's the same with people in general.

What i hate for example, is when i'm too "engaged" with her or with anyone it causes pain. I have to meet people who I wouldn't otherwise meet.

It's like two kind of propaganda was fighting inside me. Am I being brainwashed by all this pua stuff or by my society?

[stripysweatergirl]

I think I'm going to buck the trend a bit here. I don't think you have to leave.

As long as the relationship is good, this can be another opportunity to learn social skills. You can learn to make friends without relying on flirting your way to them. You can make friends while still being attentive and loving to your girlfriend. Relationships don't have to be a cage. You're obviously already competent at meeting new people. Are you up for a new challenge?

Also, you're in trouble of making yourself a bit of a playboy here. If that's what you want, fine, but if you don't see yourself flirting your way around the nursing home when you're 80-odd, then why not try it?

Originally Posted by Fox

Thanks for the comments.
She's easily jealous. So am I actually (something that she doesn't know). I have learned to understand social interactions a bit too well. So I don't feel very good when some guy gets her attention. I might overanalyze everything. I'm not afraid of losing her but deep down I'm just hurt if I think she's fantasizing of some guy. (Which is just stupid.)

This is the only thing that puts me off- I can't stand jealousy. But maybe she's only jealous because, as you admit, you might be flirting with other people. I wouldn't like it if my partner did that in front of me, either.

You do make it sound as if the relationship is worth at least trying to save, and it can definitely be another opportunity for personal growth and challenging yourself. However, you do need to know when stop trying to make it work- if nothing's improving then you really are caged.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Fox

I'm just wondering... Am I willing to leave due to wrong reasons? Just avoiding pain. Being a pua seems so narcisstic. They are no longer obsessed with a certain girl- they are obsessed with women/people in general.

No, you have very valid reasons to want to leave.

1. This is your first real relationship. Statistically speaking, those are most prone to failure anyway.

2. You have a desire to explore what else is out there. Take it from me, that feeling doesn't go away. I married the first girl I had sex with, and I spent the entire relationship always wondering in the back of my mind what it would be like to be with another woman.

3. She is moving away. The relationship is destined to die out anyway. Long distance relationships rarely work out (even though somebody is going to come in here and quote this and tell us how their long distance relationship worked ).

4. The relationship is causing you to move backward instead of forward. You are losing progress that you had made before you got into the relationship (decreasing social life). That is a HUGE red flag right there.

Every single one of these reasons ON THEIR OWN are reasons to leave a relationship. The fact that they all four exist in this relationship really makes it a no brainer.

Originally Posted by Fox

And if this relationship doesn't work then what will? Or is anything ever meant to work (as cylon seems to put it)?

Stop worrying about the goal and enjoy the process. People are far too worried about "making it work" these days (mainly because society perpetuates it). Relationships should never take WORK, if it feels like work, then it's time to move on. Relationships take MAINTENANCE and there's a difference which I'm sure we'll probably discuss deeper in the thread.

So don't worry about if anything will ever work. Enjoy the time you have together and when/if it ends, find ways to cope with the loss and move on. Don't try to manipulate your relationships toward a goal (i.e. being together forever). Instead, enjoy it for what it is: an enriching experience with a member of the opposite sex. If it's meant to last, it will happen on it's own naturally with basic maintenance and authenticity on both yours and her parts. If it's not meant to last, you'll see it coming from a mile away (i.e. losing growth, moving away, etc.).

Being in a relationship is about FINDING the right person (i.e. compatibility) not BEING the right person (i.e. comprimise). Remember that and you'll save yourself so much time and energy and heartache. And not all sexual experiences are meant to LEAD to a relationship.

Originally Posted by Fox

She says if I leave her now, she doesn't want to be friends with me. She suggests we could be together to spring and then she goes abroad. And when she comes back we could just see if there's anything left.

That's a decision she'll have to make. Sounds to me like she wants to keep you on the hook as a back up plan. If she finds someone else abroad that makes her happier than you do, she's going to abandon her back up plan.

But essentially, be glad that she doesn't want to be friends with you. Too many people slow down the healing process by trying to remain friends. Make the cut, cut contact, and heal. THEN decide if you want to be friends. Nine times out of ten? You won't. The "I want to be friends" thing is just ways to cope with the pain. We can't deal with outright rejection, so we try to lessen it by trying to manipulate the relationship into a funnel of friendship thinking it'll make it easier to cope with the loss. Truth is, that just makes it harder.

It's like when you get a cut. You HAVE to wash it out and get the dirt out, apply the ointment, and put a bandaid around it. Washing it and applying healing salves hurt like hell sometimes, but it's pain we have to face in order to heal properly so it'll heal right and we don't have problems down the road. Same thing with breaking up. The initial pain is hard, but it's necessary to heal properly and it gets easier in time if you do it right.

Originally Posted by Fox

It's like two kind of propaganda was fighting inside me. Am I being brainwashed by all this pua stuff or by my society?

No, you're not being brainwashed. You're becoming a man, dude. These are all natural male urges. Society tells us as little boys that these urges are wrong and does everything in its power to guide us away from those urges. But you can't rid yourself of them. YOu can blunt them and go on living as a shell of a man.

Or you can face them, experience them, and realize what most advanced PUA dudes eventually realize: that they eventually WANT to settle down with one woman. But only after they get it out of their system.

[cylon]

Before the term PUA was around, it was just taken for granted that men don't necessarily like to commit. That's just being a guy. Has nothing to do with becoming some "pua monster". Guys like variety, you're just acknowledging that within yourself and coming into your own power.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by stripysweatergirl

As long as the relationship is good, this can be another opportunity to learn social skills. You can learn to make friends without relying on flirting your way to them. You can make friends while still being attentive and loving to your girlfriend. Relationships don't have to be a cage. You're obviously already competent at meeting new people. Are you up for a new challenge?

Actually... my gf just made me an interesting suggestion: let's be less together for a while. Spending a night together like once a week. So I can do whatever I wish (expect having sex of course) and she doesn't keep eye on me all the time. So we can have our own lives. I said we could also cut down our online chatting- and then I came up with an idea: a closed blog where we can talk all this mess out loud so we don't have nothing to fight when we actually meet. Well she created such a blog (this is quick).

Originally Posted by James81

2. You have a desire to explore what else is out there. Take it from me, that feeling doesn't go away. I married the first girl I had sex with, and I spent the entire relationship always wondering in the back of my mind what it would be like to be with another woman.

Yep, this might become a problem.

Originally Posted by James81

4. The relationship is causing you to move backward instead of forward. You are losing progress that you had made before you got into the relationship (decreasing social life). That is a HUGE red flag right there.

I can't blame this relationship. It's me who let it go this way.

Well... right now I have kind of nothing to lose. I'll start increasing my social life right away. I have no problem with her suggestion. I'd like learn to be happy without a woman / women. So I wouldn't end up having sex for a while anyway. I'm too exhausted to do anything dramatic just now. I'm not doing well if I can't have good time with people without sex.

I have nothing to lose, so I might discuss with her about my desire of other women. Why not.

[suddentwist]

Originally Posted by James81

3. She is moving away. The relationship is destined to die out anyway. Long distance relationships rarely work out (even though somebody is going to come in here and quote this and tell us how their long distance relationship worked ).

Hehe, good one. A one year relationship turned into a longer relationship, and here I am still with the same guy - in a different country than the ones we previously lived in. Life is definitely interesting.

As for the original post, it's hard to give advice on something that only you can really figure out. Do you love this girl? You seem to be confused - you want the freedom, but you can't image a world without her. You know, sometimes it's really quite hard to know how you feel about something until you lose this something. And sometimes, if you lose this something and you realize you made a mistake, it serves as a great life lesson.

Good luck to you.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Fox

I'm too exhausted to do anything dramatic just now. I'm not doing well if I can't have good time with people without sex.

Those are just excuses....rationalizations because you don't want to face the pain that breaking up will cause.

Ironically, though, you're only going to be making the pain worse.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by suddentwist

you want the freedom, but you can't image a world without her.

If this is a correct summery... let me tell you my experiences, maybe they´ll help you.

For all my past boyfriends, I love them very very much. I never wanted to end it with them. I saw ourselfs in a future together... or better said.. I could see ourselves in a future together, but there were other futures as well... confusing.

In the end there was always a reason why we broke it off (one same as you, because he went abroad for 6 months and when he came back I would go abroad for 6 months).

I am with my husband now, and now I realise that I didn´t really love those other guys... or better said... I did love them, but not as deep, total, and complete as I do my husband.

With him, I never wonder what it would be like without him. I cannot imagen my life without him.. even thinking about it, makes me feel funny (in a not good way) inside..

There are ofcourse bad days and good days, but even the bad days (and there are plenty) do not make me want to leave him. Not even a little bit.

So... this is my story, maybe it will help you in your decision.

I think the decision that you made already, to keep some distance is a good one. It will help for sure I think.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by stripysweatergirl

I think I'm going to buck the trend a bit here. I don't think you have to leave.

As long as the relationship is good, this can be another opportunity to learn social skills. You can learn to make friends without relying on flirting your way to them. You can make friends while still being attentive and loving to your girlfriend. Relationships don't have to be a cage. You're obviously already competent at meeting new people. Are you up for a new challenge?

Also, you're in trouble of making yourself a bit of a playboy here. If that's what you want, fine, but if you don't see yourself flirting your way around the nursing home when you're 80-odd, then why not try it?



This is the only thing that puts me off- I can't stand jealousy. But maybe she's only jealous because, as you admit, you might be flirting with other people. I wouldn't like it if my partner did that in front of me, either.

You do make it sound as if the relationship is worth at least trying to save, and it can definitely be another opportunity for personal growth and challenging yourself. However, you do need to know when stop trying to make it work- if nothing's improving then you really are caged.

I tend to agree.

If you have a good thing right in front of you, why throw it away??

So you want to be a PUA. You've already proven to yourself that you can, so how long do you continue proving to yourself what you already know to be true?? For how long and to what end?? A series of sexual encounters may be exciting for a while (and it absolutely is; no doubt; at least; until it isn't; and that day will come; believe me), but where does it end; and with whom?? What or who are you actually looking for?? If you're looking for sex as a means to happiness, you'll never be fully happy; no matter what supposed PUA's are telling you, because healthy human relationships are about way more than sex.

Is it endless sex with many women that you really want, or someone who loves you and you love as well?? Only you can answer those questions, but if it hurts to leave, then why not give it some more time and see if the changes you're gf is willing to make work out before running out on her?? Why rush it and possibly throw away what may be someone who is great for you.

I went through a "male slut" stage when I was younger, and I was never satisfied; not really. I met lots of girls, had lots of sex, etc., but I wasn't really happy. I wasn't truly happy until I met someone I loved unconditionally; and it was mutual.



Some of the lonliest people on this earth are playboys and women who sleep around. Guys get a reputation of being jerks and women get reputations as sluts, and then no one wants them anyway, so what's the point??

Most people are usually ultimately looking to be loved for who they are, whether they realize it or not, so if you have it, I would say hang onto it; at least long enough to know whether or not it's right. That's the whole purpose of dating; to find a suitable partner; not to get your conquest numbers ever higher. At least, that's what the purpose has always been for me and almost everyone I have ever known in my entire life.


Your GF is willing to communicate and accommodate you, so you're sitting in a very good position IMO. I would make darn sure about leaving her if I were in your shoes.

[rei]

i agree with those who have said you're the only one who can figure this out. and i agree with those who have said you don't have to leave.

but if the latest idea to spend less time together doesn't seem to work, taking a break may be a good thing. if you stay, you may become resentful toward her for not being able to explore your options and get all that desire for variety out of your system. even though staying would be your choice, not hers, we are more likely to resent someone at first, rather than immediately accepting responsibility for our choices since that's even more painful sometimes. and if you leave, you may wonder what might have been, if you had found 'the one' and blew it, etc.

there are pros and cons. many healthy, good, satisfying relationships aren't perfect. many guys will feel a bit caged because they view monogamy as unnatural or something. you've learned to improve your social life with PUA so really it would not necessarily be satisfying to you to use those same methods because there's not the same type of challenge. so maybe as a previous poster said, you could explore a new challenge of strengthening your social interactions in ways that are not about flirting. if the goal is really about socializing of course.

i commend your girl for accommodating you, especially if you can do anything but sex with other people. i might not even be comfortable with a boyfriend who wants to make out with other girls, so props for your girl being so open.

in the end this is about what seems like the best option in the short-term and in the long-term. and i definitely agree with Bertrade that maybe what you're looking for is not something you'll totally get with sleeping around. maybe self-acceptance is really what you're looking for, or feeling entirely accepted as you are, something that may seem to come from a one-night stand but not so much as that's purely physical and usually we need to feel a spiritual/emotional connection for the acceptance.

oh, i'll also add, this may be inaccurate, but i think the answers you get from people here will at least partially be shaped by their own experiences and beliefs about relationships.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by rei

oh, i'll also add, this may be inaccurate, but i think the answers you get from people here will at least partially be shaped by their own experiences and beliefs about relationships.

Absolutely.

[Barboor]

Please send a link to your online journal, it seems very interesting and it help me alot.

[Fox]

Thank you for commenting.

Originally Posted by Betrade

I went through a "male slut" stage when I was younger, and I was never satisfied; not really. I met lots of girls, had lots of sex, etc., but I wasn't really happy. I wasn't truly happy until I met someone I loved unconditionally; and it was mutual.

Do you think that the "male slut" stage was necessary in order to reach the happy stage where you are now? And what do you think was the reason you ever become a "male slut"? Just curious.

Originally Posted by suddentwist

Do you love this girl?

Sometimes I wonder what's the difference between love and emotional addiction.

Originally Posted by Barboor

Please send a link to your online journal, it seems very interesting and it help me alot.

Here.

[Fox]

I replied to this yesterday but it seems it never went through... waiting for moderation or something. whaaat.