Do nice guys put up with more than they should?

[brendannz]

Do nice guys put up with way more than they should have to in a relationship?

OK, I can think of about 2 friends that have, wayy less than ideal girlfriends..

Like, one dude has this girlfriend who is quite fat, and really loud and rude. Like one time she said to me "Brendan you're not gonna piss me off all weekend are you?" in front of everyone for no reason, and I just said "Yes". She seems like her entire life motivation was just to complain as much as possible.

and another friend is married,

and he had a first kid with his wife, and then his wife got pregnant with another dude, they separated, but now they're getting back together so he can raise the kid who he isn't the biological father of..

The thing about these friends is they're both really nice guys, and it makes me wonder if nice guys don't set enough boundaries in their relationships and end up in bad situations because of it.

I know that these are only 2 people, and no relationship is perfect anyway, but what do you guys think about nice guys and relationships?

[Holistic Star]

They must be getting something out of the situation otherwise they would leave.

Maybe you can't see what those benefits are, but they wouldn't stay if there wasn't something in it for them.

[Michelle]

I agree with you, Holistic Star.

Also the terms "nice" and "doormat" are not synonyms.

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Do nice guys put up with way more than they should have to in a relationship?

Very much so. I'm a (recovering) "nice guy" myself and have personally noticed some very unhelpful patterns. Like trying to always be there for my ex-girlfriend, who had troubles because of Borderline Personality Disorder, and not attending to my own needs. Even when she didn't want to continue the relationship, I still tried to be there for her. Important lesson: You can't fix people.. so don't try. Besides the obvious lesson: Keep away from girls with BPD I think wanting to help people (excessively) is a common theme for "nice guys".

I have a close friend who is pretty much the prototype of a "nice guy". He has always been that way and he has a hard time saying no to anyone.. he does things like fixing his wife's mother's neighbors' daughter's computer for free, even though he doesn't feel like it or know her. Seriously.

He has basically given all control in his marriage to his wife, to a point where she suggests they install very pink speakers in the living room and he just agrees to it. Ever since high school, he has always wanted to settle down with a family, so he's living his dream.. but I can't help but think what would happen to him if they were to split up - that would destroy him, really. It's a textbook example of what neediness can do to you.

Still - the marriage seems to be working out perfectly in spite of this. They are very much in love and spend almost all of their non-working waking time together. Which would probably be toxic for most couples, but it works for them.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

They must be getting something out of the situation otherwise they would leave.

Maybe you can't see what those benefits are, but they wouldn't stay if there wasn't something in it for them.

OK, yep,

Situation 1, I think he was just able to tolerate her extreme grumpiness and see the other good traits in her.

Situation 2, I haven't really talked to him about it, it seems crazy but it's his business, not mine..

[theorique]

Originally Posted by Michelle

I agree with you, Holistic Star.

Also the terms "nice" and "doormat" are not synonyms.

For some reason, the term 'nice guy' has acquired this connotation of a pushover guy who can't attract women - perhaps because of the archetypal story of such a man. His female friends tell him "you really deserve a girlfriend, you're such a nice guy", and he begins to believe that being nicer and nicer is the solution, rather than developing qualities that actually attract good potential lovers.

Generally though, I do agree with you Michelle - you can do kind things for people from a position of self-confidence and not from neediness, and thus be nice without being a doormat.

[aggie]

what about the nice girls/women...that are too nice and end up being doormats.....

male or female, we end up there somehow....and it is not always healthy, especially if one is truly being taken advantage of...then one has to examine the situation and get out if they can.

people who are married or have children not always so easy.

some are just natrually people pleasers and this can carry over to relationships.

some men and women get themselves into this situation in long term pairing or marriages simply BECAUSE they may have exhibited this complacent, nice behavior to start and the other person was attracted to it and wants it to continue...

i found in past unhealthy relationships, part of what as liked about me was my doormat attitude, eagerness to please, be giving nurturing and nice....and then i was criticized for not being more forceful, not standing up for myself, etc...but as soon as spoke up about what MY needs were it was met very negatively.

i have heard friends and coworkers (women) speak to there partners in the most degrading way...i would never dream of doing that. i have often commented that the way some women act and look....why do the guys put up with it.

i have some theories....goes back to the relationship with mummy and they are dysfunctional and whipped, they will protect, adore the mother of their children no matter what...kind of sacred kind of thing....or the sex is great

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by theorique

His female friends tell him "you really deserve a girlfriend, you're such a nice guy", and he begins to believe that being nicer and nicer is the solution, rather than developing qualities that actually attract good potential lovers.

Been there, done that. If I had a penny for every time I've heard phrases like "I don't understand why you don't have a girlfriend. You're so nice" from female friends or girls I was interested in. Rule #1: Never take relationship advice from women

I had a very typical "nice guy" upbringing - raised by my mother as the single parent, alcoholic and emotionally unavailable father and few male role models growing up. Lots of female teachers in school. Fortunately, it's possible to do something about the "nice guy" tendencies and neediness, although I can attest to the fact that it takes time to change the patterns. Some of the things that have helped me in changing my unhelpful "nice guy" patterns in general have been: Standing firm on my opinions, being less available, fulfilling my own needs before the needs of others, saying no more often, dating multiple women at the same time and physical training - nothing like fighting through the pain of a hard weight lifting session to build character.

I don't always succeed in these things, naturally, but I try. I still have to "catch" myself before accepting to do something I don't feel like doing or before saying something to gain approval.

[cylon]

The definition of nice guy is "dude who puts up with more than he should."

And dating a BPD for a nice guy is almost mandatory. I know I did it.

But I think in the last year or so the term "nice guy" is being seen for what it is and that's a good thing, whereas it used to be a virtue.

"Nice guy" and "guy who is generous and considerate" are worlds apart. They are actually opposites.

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Do nice guys put up with way more than they should have to in a relationship?

In my opinion, yes. I can't count the number of times I've seen some interaction between a guy and his GF/wife and thought "Wow, I would NEVER put up with that crap." I think tolerating bad behavior has 3 downsides:

1) You have to put up with being abused
2) You're less attractive to your partner because no one like a wimp
3) It gets worse if allowed to continue until eventually it ruins the relationship

[aelle]

No spine =/= nice.

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by aelle

No spine =/= nice.

In fact, they're in a real sense opposites. Being nice to your partner is doing things that they want or that benefit them out of your own free will. It's a gift freely given.

Doing the same things because you've been browbeat into them is a distasteful task.

[rei]

a nice guy, or the proverbial nice guy people pleaser, may put up with more than he has to, but that's really his choice isn't it?

if he needs that much validation, isn't he willing to get it even if the partner isn't always 100% respectful? in a way doesn't he encourage her to mistreat him by constantly bowing to her wants, needs, authority? as others have said, he is getting some benefits from the connection or he would disconnect from it.

i'm not saying he deserves the negative treatment, only that it's his choice to accept it or stand up for himself.

@The Big D: niceness can be genuine or out of a spineless way of being. depends on the intentions i think. some guys (and girls) will bend over backwards to take care of others because they need a sense of validation that they aren't good at giving themselves... or they do it so the person will feel indebted, appreciative, etc. which is not a gift freely given, has very sneaky strings attached. and then there's also the type of niceness that is genuine.

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by cylon

And dating a BPD for a nice guy is almost mandatory. I know I did it.

Good to know I'm not alone

The relationship didn't last for that long, but I did get a taste of how strong you have to be emotionally to be able to handle being in a relationship with a girl with Borderline. I consider myself lucky that she dumped me since I know I would have stayed with her through some pretty horrible stuff, being the proverbial "nice guy" back then. I even knew she had been diagnosed with BPD when we started seeing each other. I have a lot of empathy for women with mental health problems - but I'll never knowingly date one again.

I've done a lot of work on myself since then and I'm dating a great woman, without self-esteem problems now. I'm amazed at how simple it can all be

But I think in the last year or so the term "nice guy" is being seen for what it is and that's a good thing, whereas it used to be a virtue.

I guess it's just a question of terminology.. that's why I use quotes around it, since there's a difference between "nice" guys and genuinely nice guys.

a nice guy, or the proverbial nice guy people pleaser, may put up with more than he has to, but that's really his choice isn't it?

I think that's a pretty simplistic way of putting it. It's not unlike saying that women who were sexually or physically abused during childhood can just choose not to be with their abusive or emotionally unavailable husband now. Change doesn't happen overnight and you don't just choose to reverse the way you've behaved your entire life. Most "nice guys" have been conditioned to be that way since early childhood, often because of poor father figures and not being allowed to fully express their masculinity. I grew up with a feminist mother, which certainly didn't help things any..

"Nice guy" behavior can be changed, but it's not by any means easy to do and it requires constant vigilance not to fall into the old way of doing things.

Personally, after one demonstration too many of women falling for "bad boys", who treat them like dirt, I considered developing more machiavellian traits - and unfortunately I think a lot of "nice guys" go that route. That's just going from one unhealthy way of being to another - although the latter is more likely to get you what you want

I couldn't do it, since it's really not in my nature and I realised that I didn't have to change my personality. I needed to develop more self-confidence and the belief that I'm not "defective" in a way that requires me to cling to whatever woman I'm with - because it would be impossible to find someone else who could love me. I think that's sometimes the basis of the neediness of "nice guys" in relationships.

Find your passion, follow it and never put a romantic relationship before everything else..

[rei]

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

I think that's a pretty simplistic way of putting it. It's not unlike saying that women who were sexually or physically abused during childhood can just choose not to be with their abusive or emotionally unavailable husband now. Change doesn't happen overnight and you don't just choose to reverse the way you've behaved your entire life. Most "nice guys" have been conditioned to be that way since early childhood, often because of poor father figures and not being allowed to fully express their masculinity.

i'm not trying to imply the proverbial 'nice guy' is not a product of conditioning. those who provide the conditioning are involved in the issue as well. and i'm not trying to say change is easy either. but we still have a choice - to continue acting with our current patterns of thinking and behaving, or to choose a different approach. that's really all i meant. i don't mean to minimize the emotional tangle that is involved in the behavior. and i worked with sexual abuse survivors so i understand the choice to leave can be hard, but they do still have that choice.

there is still a moment where you make a choice to change, and the process of change can be pretty difficult, you can backtrack, etc. but there's still a moment of choice in any experience. even when you act on unconscious patterns, that's still a choice. not a conscious one, obviously, but a choice at some level.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

Very much so. I'm a (recovering) "nice guy" myself and have personally noticed some very unhelpful patterns. Like trying to always be there for my ex-girlfriend, who had troubles because of Borderline Personality Disorder, and not attending to my own needs. Even when she didn't want to continue the relationship, I still tried to be there for her. Important lesson: You can't fix people.. so don't try. Besides the obvious lesson: Keep away from girls with BPD I think wanting to help people (excessively) is a common theme for "nice guys".

I suppose most people want to be nice to others (esp. in my part of the world) it's just that you have to take care of yourself and not everyone can be a human charity..

I don't think you're the "nice guy" loser-type, just you've learnt lessons from experience.. like everyone does

[amj]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Do nice guys put up with way more than they should have to in a relationship?



I know that these are only 2 people, and no relationship is perfect anyway, but what do you guys think about nice guys and relationships?

Nothing wrong with being a nice guy. I'm a nice guy but I command respect. Nobody is disrespecting me to my face. It took me a while to get to this point so I kinda understand your friend's situations. It sounds like they need help getting their self-esteem together. To me, people who allow others to step on them have low self esteem.

[Magicinthenight]

Originally Posted by amj

Nothing wrong with being a nice guy. I'm a nice guy but I command respect. Nobody is disrespecting me to my face. It took me a while to get to this point so I kinda understand your friend's situations. It sounds like they need help getting their self-esteem together. To me, people who allow others to step on them have low self esteem.

Exactly. Low self-esteem has nothing to do with being genuinely nice (which to me reads kind, conciderate, respectful, none of which are negative attributes!). Being nice is doing things for someone because you want them to feel good and, most importantly, because doing those things makes YOU feel good too.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Do nice guys put up with way more than they should have to in a relationship?

As a woman married to a 'nice guy' I'm gonna have to say yes to this one. He puts up with so much crap from me I sometimes can't believe it - I'd have kicked me to the curb long ago.
Sometimes I actually just push his buttons just too see how far I can go. I know, I know - what a bit** right? But it's really not attractive and I'd actually like to see him grow a pair.
Yes - we do have quite the dysfunctional relationship

[James81]

Originally Posted by gigij

As a woman married to a 'nice guy' I'm gonna have to say yes to this one. He puts up with so much crap from me I sometimes can't believe it - I'd have kicked me to the curb long ago.
Sometimes I actually just push his buttons just too see how far I can go. I know, I know - what a bit** right? But it's really not attractive and I'd actually like to see him grow a pair.
Yes - we do have quite the dysfunctional relationship

Bit** wasn't the word I was thinking. Manipulative seems more like it.

Why do you stay in a relationship when you know it's dysfuntional?

You realize that based on statistics and previous experiences alone, that there is a very high chance you'll end up cheating on him and hurting him, right?

Just throwing that out there. Don't sit around waiting for him to become the man you want. Find the man you want and be with him (i.e. break up first, THEN find the man you want and be with him ).

[gigij]

Originally Posted by James81

Why do you stay in a relationship when you know it's dysfuntional?

Denial for the longest time. Everyone keeps telling me what a great guy, husband, father etc etc he is - so I believed it. And it's true I guess. He is a really, really nice guy. So I'll be the bad guy when I leave.

Originally Posted by James81

You realize that based on statistics and previous experiences alone, that there is a very high chance you'll end up cheating on him and hurting him,
right?

Oh yes - pretty much 100% chance of that happening I'd say.

Originally Posted by James81

Just throwing that out there. Don't sit around waiting for him to become the man you want. Find the man you want and be with him (i.e. break up first, THEN find the man you want and be with him ).

I'm working on it. But he is really hanging on for dear life - so I have to take it slow. I actually feel sorry for him. He doesn't know how to make himself happy so he wants to hang on to something comfortable even if it clearly isn't working. But dragging it out is gonna make it worse - I know.

[Cyllya]

Originally Posted by theorique

For some reason, the term 'nice guy' has acquired this connotation of a pushover guy who can't attract women - perhaps because of the archetypal story of such a man. His female friends tell him "you really deserve a girlfriend, you're such a nice guy", and he begins to believe that being nicer and nicer is the solution, rather than developing qualities that actually attract good potential lovers.

I think a major reason for this is products/websites that provide dating advice for doormats. They don't want to actually call their customers/readers "doormats," because they wouldn't make as much money that way, since those people don't want to think of themselves as doormats. So they call them "nice" guys/girls and then earn bonus points by calling the doormats' more successful competition jerks/bitches, even though those people may in fact be nice people. If you look closely at the actual advice, there's rarely actually anything nice about what they call nice guys/girls and anything unnice about what they call jerks/bitches. (Quite the contrary, the people called nice are usually described in ways that don't sound very nice.)

Most of such advice is aimed at male doormats, but there's also a book called Why Men Marry Bitches.

[cylon]

It's true, women often tell men who aren't being successful with women that "they don't get why he's not successful, because they are so nice, such great guys." Unfortunately, this is killing with kindness. No one wants to point out the real guy's problem, which he's probably desperate to find out, so in order to spare his feelings, they tell him to keep doing the wrong thing, and he is justifiably frustrated because he keeps doing what women tell him he should do. They know he's a wuss with no sense of self-direction or purpose. They just don't want to be the one to tell him. So they tell him instead to keep on keeping on.

Eventually he (hopefully) realizes that doing what women tell him to do, is the exact thing that is causing his problems in the first place. The thing that is required is to develop his masculinity. Being a real man. That doesn't mean you are cruel or insensitive, but it means you forge your own path and don't sacrifice your desires or happiness to other people, you don't put others on a pedestal and jump through hoops just to please them, and you are the dominant one in the relationship, no matter how many p.c. messages you hear to the contrary. Masculinity and femininity are different things and those who don't see or deny the difference are out of touch with their own sexuality and their own personal power.

So in this context "nice guy" doesn't mean good person who is just a positive force in his and others lives, it means a man who is completely disconnected from his true self and is basically a little boy looking to the grown-ups to tell him what to do.

But people can change, if they want to. Nice guys aren't forced to be that way forever. If they choose, they can learn the error of their ways and start living more authentic lives where their own needs start becoming a priority.

[Writertype]

I agree with the general sentiment here, that "nice guy" has become codeword for "doormat" or "person with low self esteem." It is unfortunate, because it can make that person think that being mean (a "jerk," the opposite of nice, right?) is the way to get women. The key, though, is actually the opposite of "doormat"-- be confident! You need to really love yourself for others to really love you. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, but it's still not a bad rule to follow.

Reading Gigli's post above just made me think 'wow.' My jaw dropped. Near 100% chance she will cheat on him? She pushes his buttons just to see how far she can go? She ridicules him behind his back for not being enough of a man? That seems so mean-spirited to me, although I guess I have never been in a situation like that. Nice guys take heed-- change your ways or end up in a relationship with a person like that!

[cylon]

Women have zero compassion for men who aren't masculine. They actually enjoy hurting them. A weak man brings that out of a woman whereas if he were the dominant one, she wouldn't feel compelled to punish him for not holding up his part of the bargain. The whole point is that a masculine man doesn't stand for something like that, and that's how he keeps her attracted to him. Guys need to realize this and stop watching Everyone Loves Raymond, and quit listening to the p.c. crap about how the genders are the same. This is where feminism brought us. It's great women have more rights and freedom but along with it came men who were ashamed to have penises.

[theorique]

cyllya and cylon - you guys are making a lot of sense.

A common drama that is played out with the NiceGuy(tm) is that of playing the role of the 'girlfriend' of the woman that he's secretly in love with.

(NG's internal monologue) "I'm such a good listener and some day Sarah's going to see that her boyfriend Brent is a jerk and I'm the guy for her. She really trusts me by telling me all the things about him that she can't stand, and how he treats her so badly! Some day she'll realize!"

(Sarah's internal monologue) "It's so great that I have a male friend like NG who I can share things with. I feel so safe with him, like he was one of my girlfriends. He's not like other guys, who are only after one thing. I wish Brent were more like him."

Of course, NG is not really very 'nice' at all - he's listening and paying attention inauthentically, with a obvious ulterior motive. He thinks that he's building karma up with Sarah and some day he's going to cash it in and get himself the girlfriend that he wanted. But it's not going to work because he's acting like a platonic friend, not a lover. And Sarah may very well be upset when she realizes that NG has been keeping score and thinks that she 'owes him' a relationship because of all the friendship he's 'given' her.

On Sarah's side, she's placed NG solidly in the 'friend zone' because he's never given her any indication that he wants to be anywhere else - no communication of sexual or romantic interest, or flirtation or creation sexual tension. In short, he's never communicated his feelings honestly. And in reality, she wouldn't really want Brent to behave like NG. Instead, given the choice, she would want a kinder version of Brent, but who still had the confidence and vitality that presumably attracted her to him in the first place.

cylon, I think your solution can break this problem or most other problems that the NG has - as you wrote, the key is to become authentic and confident, and strike out boldly for what you really want.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by cylon

Women have zero compassion for men who aren't masculine. They actually enjoy hurting them. A weak man brings that out of a woman whereas if he were the dominant one, she wouldn't feel compelled to punish him for not holding up his part of the bargain. The whole point is that a masculine man doesn't stand for something like that, and that's how he keeps her attracted to him. Guys need to realize this and stop watching Everyone Loves Raymond, and quit listening to the p.c. crap about how the genders are the same. This is where feminism brought us. It's great women have more rights and freedom but along with it came men who were ashamed to have penises.

Weakness, wimpiness, passive-aggressiveness, dishonesty, acceptance of abuse, neediness and indecisiveness are unattractive traits in either sex. Women don't have much compassion for those traits in other women, either... there's nothing more frustrating than a friend who lets her boyfriend treat her like sh*t but hangs onto the relationship desperately because 'I LOVE him' or 'I can't imagine being without him'. 'Nice guy' or 'nice girl' are such misnomers, because they're taken as shorthand for passive-aggressive, dishonest or weak traits.

There's nothing wrong with genuine niceness - compassion, patience, generosity, thoughtfulness - that's what women mean when they say they want a nice guy, not 'someone who will worship me and let me make all the decisions'.

Wouldn't you be attracted to a woman who knows her own mind, is honest with you about her desires, is self-confident and not needy, and is emotionally strong?

Those aren't gender specific traits, they're the traits of a good partner. Or is that 'PC crap'?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by theorique

cylon, I think your solution can break this problem or most other problems that the NG has - as you wrote, the key is to become authentic and confident, and strike out boldly for what you really want.

Thanks. That internal dialogue is true... and so ridiculous when you look at it for what it's really saying. "Gee, let's see. She is dating this guy. Likes him a lot. Since I like her too, what I'm going to do is the exact opposite of what the guy she already likes is doing. Whatever she responds to in a man, I will be the opposite of that."

That made sense to me for a while but it's kind of funny when you think about how futile it is. Nice guys should start emulating the "jerks" they are so jealous of, and just hope that they can maintain their humanity in the process. Which, frankly, isn't even necessary. It's the masculinity that is the key. Any kindness or sensitivity that a guy has is just a bonus, but not the essential item. Having no kindness is actually a challenge many women will want to take--see if they can turn the bad boy into a nice guy. That gets their motors running.

[cylon]

No one is turned on by bad qualities (although a lot of people see their role as saviors, to fix broken people). But since the sexes are different, they manifest in different ways, based on if it's from a masculine man or feminine woman. Saying that both sexes can have good and bad qualities isn't p.c. crap. Saying that those qualities are not expressed in unique ways based on gender and that in reality men and women are essentially androgynous, is.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by cylon

Having no kindness is actually a challenge many women will want to take--see if they can turn the bad boy into a nice guy. That gets their motors running.

Really? Where do you get that from? Because I can't think of a single instance in my life where I was attracted to a guy who acted mean or showed no kindness. I can think of a few men I know like that, and I find them rather repellent. My last partner revealed increasing lack of empathy towards me and others the longer I knew him and I grew less attracted to him in equal measure.

Running through the male partners of my female friends, the most successful partnerships are with men who are kind and supportive, not bad. Why are you so convinced showing no kindness is a good strategy, in your experience?