gender misconceptions (for men and women)

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rei

...
guys, i would like to know how it is that guys can seem to become a different person when you're around your friends. sometimes less mature, sometimes different in other ways. what's up with that? (i admit women can seem different with their friends as well.)

Interesting question. What comes up for me that being in different groups, with different culture / rules / rituals I adapt (by patterns grown over time) my behaviour, mostly unconsciously. So in a work setting I behave different from being with my partner or with family or with friends. The trick is to balance my authenticity with the 'demands' of the group I'm in. Consciousness is key. Again.

and is it true that you will sometimes push our buttons on purpose because you think we're especially attractive when we're pissed off?

No. I do like to tease (and am willing to be teased as well) but I don't intentionally push women's buttons to make them pissed off.

one more thing comes to mind - emotional unavailability. it's true there are plenty of emotionally unavailable women out there, but i'm wondering if any guys can speculate about the primary reason a guy might be emotionally unavailable. is this something that causes him pain or is it just a player mentality?

For me the first more than the latter. I'm not playing the player's game.

and, assuming a guy would want to grow out of the emotionally unavailable stuff, what might a girl do to support this effort? (if a woman is bothered by the emotionally unavailable man, probably best to simply cut her losses of course, but let's pretend for the sake of argument she wouldn't want to - and she was too healthy to simply be a fixer.) what might she do to support the man who makes a decision to let go of the emotionally unavailable stuff for his own benefit, not just to please her (or get her into bed)?

Patience, acceptance (no pushing, threats or blackmail) and loving perseverance (going for a positive change, seeing what is possible). Being emotionally available (lead by example).

speaking of getting a woman into bed, guys, what percentage of your own behavior is motivated by this?

I'm not sure what you mean here - clarify please?

[rei]

thanks for the interesting answers spirit4711. i'll clarify as requested.

when a man and a woman (both -mostly- heterosexual) are in the same location or can potentially be in the same location (e.g. phone conversation if not in the same place), and the man is physically attracted to the woman, what percentage of the man's behavior is motivated by the desire to have the woman sleep with him? this can be the percentage of behavior for the duration of the interaction or limited to a specific amount of time, like for every hour of interaction when the man has sexual desire, what percentage of his behavior is motivated by wanting to fulfill that desire?

and i am speaking about a general desire for sexual gratification, not so much emotional bonding or intimacy... just getting laid.

i realize the answer may depend on a number of things, the stage of the relationship (if there is one), age of the parties, whether the man lives by PUA rules, etc. but i imagine many women would be interested in the answer to that question.

[amj]

Originally Posted by rei

i think that is a mostly accurate assessment amj - but incomplete. some of the women who cheat, as i understand it, do still care for their mates. but they don't believe they deserve a problem-free or problem-lite romance. it's basically masochistic behavior. they only care for their mates as much as they care for themselves, which isn't a whole lot. they can grow and change and improve their self-esteem of course, but this is another reason for infidelity initiated by the female.

i find it interesting that a thread about gender misconceptions has been largely used to discuss cheating. i guess betrayal is incredibly unpleasant for both genders, though to intentionally generalize, i would guess many males are less willing to admit feeling hurt. (yeah i know, generalizations and stereotypes are not very kosher.)

Do you honestly believe these women who cheat really care about their mates? When you look into their eyes do they sincerely care for their mates? I guess it is possible but I haven't seen it yet. I can spot a woman in an unhappy relationship a mile away.

You are right about women not caring for themselves. I think many women who cheat have emotional issues, self esteem issues, etc.

Yeah men get hurt too, but are you talking about being hurt from getting cheated on?

[rei]

Originally Posted by amj

Do you really think these women who cheat really care about their mates? When you look into their eyes do they sincerely care for their mates? I guess it is possible but I haven't seen it yet. I can spot a woman in an unhappy relationship a mile away.

I think you are right about that. I think many women who cheat have emotional issues, self esteem issues, etc.

Yeah men get hurt too, but are you still talking about being hurt from getting cheated on?

i do think they care - as much as they care about themselves. as i said that may not be a lot of caring, but it is there. they give to their mates as much as they believe they deserve from themselves. sometimes it is more about simple disregard for the feelings of a partner, and sometimes women don't even know why they cheat unless or until they do an assessment of their deepest fears and feelings. so when you see a woman in an unhappy relationship, she is also unhappy in the relationship with herself at that point in time. the world and the people in it are mirrors for the self.

betrayal is what happens when someone cheats, so yes i was focused on that, but i do also think there is some truth to the stereotype about gender and emotion. women are not just piles of hormones, but women are more emotionally expressive, generally. and not all men have that stoic tough guy thing going on, but they do seem largely more reluctant to express emotions (other than 'tough' ones like anger) - my guess would be because those men are deeply afraid of seeming weak (or they learned the behavior from a male role model who had that fear)... same thinking that keeps men from seeing a doctor in many cases. i have learned from my own experience that it takes a ton of strength and courage to express emotion, to admit we have emotion. it does risk vulnerability but the courage is undeniable, and there's more courage there than in simple holding back out of fear of seeming weak.

[amj]

Originally Posted by rei

i do think they care - as much as they care about themselves. as i said that may not be a lot of caring, but it is there. they give to their mates as much as they believe they deserve from themselves. sometimes it is more about simple disregard for the feelings of a partner, and sometimes women don't even know why they cheat unless or until they do an assessment of their deepest fears and feelings. so when you see a woman in an unhappy relationship, she is also unhappy in the relationship with herself at that point in time. the world and the people in it are mirrors for the self.

betrayal is what happens when someone cheats, so yes i was focused on that, but i do also think there is some truth to the stereotype about gender and emotion. women are not just piles of hormones, but women are more emotionally expressive, generally. and not all men have that stoic tough guy thing going on, but they do seem largely more reluctant to express emotions (other than 'tough' ones like anger) - my guess would be because those men are deeply afraid of seeming weak (or they learned the behavior from a male role model who had that fear)... same thinking that keeps men from seeing a doctor in many cases. i have learned from my own experience that it takes a ton of strength and courage to express emotion, to admit we have emotion. it does risk vulnerability but the courage is undeniable, and there's more courage there than in simple holding back out of fear of seeming weak.

True. True. I agree... Men are more reluctant to show certain emotions. And you are right, we are taught by role models not to show them. I personally have cried maybe twice in ten years. I know you didn't specifically say "crying" but that was the first thing that popped in my mind. I think as long as men find a way to express themselves and release their emotions everything is ok.

[rei]

Originally Posted by amj

True. True. I agree... Men are more reluctant to show certain emotions. And you are right, we are taught by role models not to show them. I personally have cried maybe twice in ten years. I know you didn't specifically say "crying" but that was the first thing that popped in my mind. I think as long as men find a way to express themselves and release their emotions everything is ok.

twice in ten years eh? interesting. crying is a way of expressing pain, sometimes purely emotional pain. i'd love it if guys learned that it is okay to express softer feelings, you can still be our heroes (heroes we want but don't need of course)

i think generally what you said about men finding a way to release emotions is probably true. but the chosen activity is not always a good fit for the emotion - for example, rigorous physical activity is good for expressing anger, but it's more of a distraction than a way to really express sadness or hurt. if a man turns the hurt into anger, the activity may help, but it only helps with that top layer and not with what is underneath it. many men don't do the releasing consciously, and pushing down a big, integral part of the self is not very good PD protocol authenticity is what most personal development folks are working toward. the emotional body is part of the authentic self. now i am not talking about bawling at every hallmark commercial, that would seem a bit wimpy (to me anyway), but i also think it is, frankly, kind of weak to buy into that social belief about men and emotion. role models aren't always perfect ya know?

oh that reminds me... a couple of times now i've been speaking to a potential partner and when asked about his favorite movie, his response was The Notebook. i have trouble with that. i find myself thinking either the guy is way too in touch with his femininity for me (i like a guy who is not afraid to express his feminine side - which all guys have - but not guys who seem uber-feminine), or it's just a line because he thinks girls want a sensitive guy. am i being too cynical or harsh with this? can an emotionally healthy, balanced guy genuinely think The Notebook is good enough to be his fav movie?

[amj]

Originally Posted by rei

twice in ten years eh? interesting. crying is a way of expressing pain, sometimes purely emotional pain. i'd love it if guys learned that it is okay to express softer feelings, you can still be our heroes (heroes we want but don't need of course)

i think generally what you said about men finding a way to release emotions is probably true. but the chosen activity is not always a good fit for the emotion - for example, rigorous physical activity is good for expressing anger, but it's more of a distraction than a way to really express sadness or hurt. if a man turns the hurt into anger, the activity may help, but it only helps with that top layer and not with what is underneath it. many men don't do the releasing consciously, and pushing down a big, integral part of the self is not very good PD protocol authenticity is what most personal development folks are working toward. the emotional body is part of the authentic self. now i am not talking about bawling at every hallmark commercial, that would seem a bit wimpy (to me anyway), but i also think it is, frankly, kind of weak to buy into that social belief about men and emotion. role models aren't always perfect ya know?

oh that reminds me... a couple of times now i've been speaking to a potential partner and when asked about his favorite movie, his response was The Notebook. i have trouble with that. i find myself thinking either the guy is way too in touch with his femininity for me (i like a guy who is not afraid to express his feminine side - which all guys have - but not guys who seem uber-feminine), or it's just a line because he thinks girls want a sensitive guy. am i being too cynical or harsh with this? can an emotionally healthy, balanced guy genuinely think The Notebook is good enough to be his fav movie?

It's hard for me to cry sometimes. I'm going to be at a funeral and I know the tears are going to want to come out. I'm going to try fight it off though. The only reason I would cry is because a lot of others will be crying. To me, that's more like following the leader than me expressing my true feelings. I'm just not one who cries too much. But that's what works for me. Men can cry though. I definitely don't look down on men who cry.

As far as the The Notebook.. I don't know. I don't watch too many movies so I can't really comment on that. If he has a good reason for liking the movie, I guess it's ok. I just did a youtube search for that movie and apparantly, a famous footbal player said The Notebook is his favorite movie. To each his own, I guess.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by amj

You are right about women not caring for themselves. I think many women who cheat have emotional issues, self esteem issues, etc.

How come men who cheat are just horny and out for a good time - but women who cheat automatically have to have emotional and self esteem issues? Really?

[amj]

Originally Posted by gigij

How come men who cheat are just horny and out for a good time - but women who cheat automatically have to have emotional and self esteem issues? Really?

That's just the way I have seen it. Many have issues with themselves. Other women who cheat, do so because they are no longer interested in their mate. What you read was only one quote of many that I wrote.

[rei]

Originally Posted by gigij

How come men who cheat are just horny and out for a good time - but women who cheat automatically have to have emotional and self esteem issues? Really?

gigij, i'm the one who brought up that issue actually, and i am a woman who used to have that response to self-esteem issues. i did not say that is always the motivation, only that it is sometimes part of it. so if anyone deserves your critical pointing out of the double standard, it would be me, although i thought i made it clear this wasn't the case for every cheating woman.

and i don't like the double standard either. plenty of men are driven to cheat out of self-esteem and emotional deficits, only the behavior is partly reinforced by the belief about emotion expression being a sign of weakness for males. both genders have stuff they need to deal with that can sometimes lead to self-destructive or masochistic behavior. but women are often treated as something in need of fixing when this happens, and the general response regarding males is 'boys will be boys' - i don't like it either.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by amj

That's just the way I have seen it. Many have issues with themselves. Other women who cheat, do so because they are no longer interested in their mate. What you read was only one quote of many that I wrote.

Because that quote really stood out in a thread about gender misconceptions

I always thought narcissism was a big factor for cheating actually. For both genders.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rei

thanks for the interesting answers spirit4711. i'll clarify as requested.

when a man and a woman (both -mostly- heterosexual) are in the same location or can potentially be in the same location (e.g. phone conversation if not in the same place), and the man is physically attracted to the woman, what percentage of the man's behavior is motivated by the desire to have the woman sleep with him? this can be the percentage of behavior for the duration of the interaction or limited to a specific amount of time, like for every hour of interaction when the man has sexual desire, what percentage of his behavior is motivated by wanting to fulfill that desire?
...

Wow, difficult question, rei. Never thought about it, actually. I wouldn't know how to determine that. Will think about it.

Can you say that for your behaviour to men?

[rei]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Wow, difficult question, rei. Never thought about it, actually. I wouldn't know how to determine that. Will think about it.

Can you say that for your behaviour to men?

i don't have a definitive or objective answer, but i'll give it a go. when i'm feeling randy, it is not always about physical gratification. sometimes the drive is purely sexual, sometimes emotional. emotional closeness can be fulfilled in other ways, hence the feminine propensity for talking/sharing. Steve has said his sense of emotional closeness is inextricably linked to physical closeness; i'd imagine that's true for many males. and i'd imagine many females can compartmentalize as i do, though i admit i don't always know whether the desire is primarily to fill a physical 'need' or an emotional one. when it is purely sexual or a case of doing it to relieve stress, relax, sleep better, etc. i can and will use a mechanical surrogate. i just realized i'm not really answering the question.

a more direct answer: in my experience a guy is often or usually very quick to respond if a girl makes such motives clear. so according to the same parameters, it would probably only require 2% of my behavior - saying what i want - to get the desire satisfied. this is if we ignore the whole wooing thing.

having said all of that, i think perhaps we (people) don't always know the motivations for our behavior, at least not as we are engaging in that behavior. we often need to reflect to get conscious about our motivation. with women, it's often less about satisfying a physical need and more about feeling sexy, positive attention and a sense of attractiveness. actually i can't really say that because i don't speak for every woman, but in my experience and through my observations that seems fairly accurate.

another question for the men here... how much of the time are you actually listening when a woman is talking? (i've played with my guy friends to make fun of this. when i notice they aren't listening i intentionally say something off-the-wall and often sexual to get their attention. yeah i can make it into a joke but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its irk-worthy moments.)

[shasah]

Reading these posts brought up another question I have for men...
how is it that when a man claims to be "in love" and something happens to end the relationship, a man can jump so quickly into another relationship? I've never really understood this and yes I've been in that situation.

I was in a long term relationship that ended and 3 days after our last date, he was dating another woman, went on a cruise with her after 1 month and less than 2 months later they were living together. WTF? Is it an ego thing? She left and therefore I'm going to prove how much of a man I am? Or was he ever truly in love?

I'm glad it's over now, but wow, really, 3 days???? Talk about a bruised ego

[cylon]

Originally Posted by shasah

Reading these posts brought up another question I have for men...
how is it that when a man claims to be "in love" and something happens to end the relationship, a man can jump so quickly into another relationship? I've never really understood this and yes I've been in that situation.

I was in a long term relationship that ended and 3 days after our last date, he was dating another woman, went on a cruise with her after 1 month and less than 2 months later they were living together. WTF? Is it an ego thing? She left and therefore I'm going to prove how much of a man I am? Or was he ever truly in love?

I'm glad it's over now, but wow, really, 3 days???? Talk about a bruised ego

In my opinion women bounce back quicker. But the thing is, it's who's least in love that bounces back quicker, unfortunately (man or woman). That's just the reality. They aren't as broken up over it because they've been losing attraction for awhile. Women do the same thing, they line up a new suitor, dump the guy, he feels like he's just been shot in the chest, and she's out there laughing and giggling with her new man. And he's thinking "now she has a new guy!" when in reality, she has been partying with the new guy for quite awhile before you ever heard of him.

So, we all feel like crap when someone leaves us, and since we care more than they do, we are usually blind to the signs they give that they are losing attraction.

But if you left the guy, what do you care? He moved on with his life. It only bothered you because your ego wanted to think he would be absolutely devastated that he lost you. So you're having to accept that the world didn't revolve around you after all. If you care for someone, you should hope they bounce back quickly and can move on with their lives, not sit around and pine for you while you are living it up with your new man.

[rei]

very good point cylon. i don't think people always have a new person lined up, but i definitely see how the person who is less in love will usually bounce back more quickly.

actually, i'm not sure shasah made it clear that the breakup was her decision or the guy's. but i still think you made a good point.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by shasah

She left and therefore I'm going to prove how much of a man I am?

From that I took it that she dumped the guy and she thought he wanted to prove to her that he was a man by bouncing back so quickly.

And since 99% of the time it's the woman leaving, I'll assume I read the situation right. If not, disregard that part shasah!

[rei]

i am curious about your 99% thing. where did you get that? my last breakup was mutual, and i don't mean how people say it was mutual to hide getting dumped, i mean a genuinely mutual decision like the Pavlina situation. but in my relationship history, that's the exception. most of the time i was initiating the split. wonder why that is.

shasah, i have noticed through personal observation as well as research, when a man feels deeply slighted or troubled he often does something to basically assert his potency. for example, many men who have symptoms of PTSD after combat, who are somewhat suicidal and are on the verge of giving up, get through the worst of it by fathering a child. women sometimes like to knock around that whole need to be manly, but it is a serious thing. not taken to extremes it may even be a sign of emotional health. i admit i would not know as much as a man about this.

p.s. cylon i noticed in other threads you've talked about how women spend a lot of time on appearance and appreciate it when others notice. that's very true, and i forgot exactly how you said it but seems incredibly insightful.

[shasah]

Actually, nowadays it's more of a curiosity thing. When he first told me he was dating her and when he started dating her and at the same time told me he was going on a cruise with her, it did blow my mind. My ego was a much bigger thing at that point and I had a hard time processing. Of course, he waited until the day our divorce was finalized, so I was feeling kind of raw anyway. The biggest thing that got to me was that he lied. I thought we were going for friendly and to find out he lied made me lose my temper to say the least. I understand more now why he did, but it also says he didn't know me very well or he knew me very well and I didn't know myself

But you are right, I left him, so I made my bed and all that jazz. But on another point, how can you not have issues that have to be dealt with in such a situation? Wouldn't you bring some of that with you?

We are actually friendly now and I just met his live-in this past weekend. I am happy for them now, but at the time....

[shasah]

Oh and just for the record, there wasn't another man. More of a newly opened mind meeting up with a very closed one.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by shasah

But on another point, how can you not have issues that have to be dealt with in such a situation? Wouldn't you bring some of that with you?

Of course, but you're not dead. That's why they call it the rebound. You take out your issues on an unsuspecting bystander. In his case, he didn't dump the bystander after she nursed him through it. But normally it's "thanks so much for helping me through my issues. Now that I'm stronger, I am going to go find myself. Thanks for the memories. Bye."

Men and women both hide their pain. Men are expected to suck it up, so our pain actually lasts longer because we have no outlet to express it (other than sex). Women are expected to cry and get it out of their system, surrounded by their female support network so there's all that bonding and "you go girl" stuff, and I think that's part of how women bounce back so quickly. They get lots of attention, while the man goes all John Wayne style.

Man, relationships are stupid.

[brendannz]

1/ That I'm unique, and imperfect, and therefore loveable..

I'm a guy, but if I were a girl the same would apply I guess

2/ I'm much more than what I do for a job

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by cylon

Women are expected to cry and get it out of their system, surrounded by their female support network so there's all that bonding and "you go girl" stuff, and I think that's part of how women bounce back so quickly. They get lots of attention, while the man goes all John Wayne style.

I was talking to a friend about the film "Into the Wild" and he said that most of the guys he's talked to can relate to this, while the girls he talked to can't really see eye to eye with it.

which may suggest women are more communal, and guys want to say "**** society" and explore the world on their own accord, or something along those lines..

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by rei

thanks for the interesting answers spirit4711. i'll clarify as requested.

when a man and a woman (both -mostly- heterosexual) are in the same location or can potentially be in the same location (e.g. phone conversation if not in the same place), and the man is physically attracted to the woman, what percentage of the man's behavior is motivated by the desire to have the woman sleep with him? this can be the percentage of behavior for the duration of the interaction or limited to a specific amount of time, like for every hour of interaction when the man has sexual desire, what percentage of his behavior is motivated by wanting to fulfill that desire?

and i am speaking about a general desire for sexual gratification, not so much emotional bonding or intimacy... just getting laid.

i realize the answer may depend on a number of things, the stage of the relationship (if there is one), age of the parties, whether the man lives by PUA rules, etc. but i imagine many women would be interested in the answer to that question.

I don't think it differs too much between the genders, it mainly comes back to the fact that consciously and unconsciously the process of childbirth has much more involved to a woman than to a man...