What does it mean to love someone?

[Bamboo Moon]

I know this is probably a question only I can really answer for myself, but I find myself wondering what it means to love someone. I have been with my husband for 13 years (since I was 22) and I get the sense that he loves me more than I love him. He's a good man, and we don't fight much, but when we do I feel like I just want him out of my life. He seems. . . weak. Both of us have had issues with depression in the past, but I feel like I am doing much more to manage my predisposition to it and to change myself for the better. But I don't want to change myself for him.

He wants intimacy, affection, (sexual and otherwise) and says he feels like a roommate, that I don't really need him. And in way, I don't. I know if I was on my own, I would survive. And I'm not afraid to be alone. What I am afraid of is to be someone's nursemaid. Yet I have also been trying to figure out my career path and I want that to be for the greater good--why do I have more compassion for strangers than the man I married?

I'm not going anywhere for awhile, I'm pregnant and have a child already. But new baby aside, I don't want to be with someone for another 10 years if the relationship doesn't have the potential to be a 10. And I wrestle with thoughts of "Am I an arrogant bitch?" because he thinks I don't care about him. He has said that if I loved him, I would rub his back and want sex more. And I am tired, so tired, of him feeling lonely and unloved and doing nothing about it except to tell me so.

[aggie]

i am a bit older than you, on my second marriage with a bad engagement in between.

i think this is something that happens to a lot of people...i don't know, maybe women more than men.

you may love him more than you realize...more than you are ABLE to realize...i think love, for some, transcends all that stuff that is important to others...like physical attention, nuturing, .....SEX...

it stems from a desire to be a partner in life with someone, to share a life, to not be alone...but if you have ever been alone, even under less than optimal circumstances and KNOW you could survive again....you wonder sometimes.

i know from myself, it comes from some passions i have in my life...and i have said before, sometimes following a particular passion completely can or needs to be a solitary thing...so we either sacrifice the interaction with people, with a "mate" and follow it, or we compromise and do what we can within the boundaries of a relationship or marriage or committment to someone.

i do not know if i am articulating very well; i love my husband very much and after nine years, in the face of many obstacles and adversities our relationship is mutually very strong....but i really DO understand what you are feeling. we all have to find a way to adapt and accept things we cannot change, as you have found with your pregnancy, and find some peace with it and make it work for us. the alternative is a drastic change where one walks away and begins anew alone....and in your case, with some responsibility to your children.

nothing is impossible...you just need to think things through and decide what you really want.

i wish you luck.

[SmartAlx]

I would suggest that you get marriage counceling, even though things aren't that bad right now, best nip it in the bud before anything becomes a problem.

Personally, and I mean this with as much love and respect I can muster, from your description it seems to me that you are a bit self - ish in your approach to life. After all, you are more afraid to be your husband's nursemaid than to be alone. It seems that you have embraced feminism a bit too much. Not that I'm advocating being a nursemaid. But a relationship takes cooperation. If you cook the dinner, maybe he'll do the laundry. If he takes care of the car, maybe you'll mow the lawn. Whatever. Share the chores.

I'm sure the problem is not all your fault but the impression I get from what you have written is that you don't need him. What if he dies? Will you cry? Will you be devastated? You should be. The idea of losing your husband in a car accident should shake you to your core. You are a woman after all... your relationships are most important to you, right? If you didn't have ANY relationships you would probably want to stop living, right? So you actually DO need relationships. Well, what is the most important relationship in your life? It better be the relationship you have with your husband or you are committing emotional adultery.

Love is by definition selfLESS. Love is an emotion not about yourself. It's an emotion about the other person. It's caring more about their well being than caring about your own. If you have to choose between them getting their way and you getting your way if you love them you will choose to let them have their way.

A loving couple will have arguments like, "no, let's do what you want." "NO! I'm telling you we are going to do what YOU want."

My personal advice to you would be to entice him. Don't rub his back. Entice him to rub yours. Don't ask. Win it. Don't ask for a massage. Be sexy. Use your feminine wiles. That is the real strength that women have. You can get men to do what you want by being feminine. There's nothing wrong with it. Embrace your femininity. It will awaken the man inside your husband and he will want to sweep you off your feet and seduce you.*

The reason you don't feel loving isn't because there is something wrong with you, but because he isn't making you feel loved. It seems like he is more desperate than you, right? Well, if love is his main focus, then he is desperate because that's not natural for a man. A man's main focus in life isn't to get love. It's to get respect. Sure he wants love, but respect is more important to him, especially from is his wife. So respect him. Don't just say, "I respect you." Don't just NOT DIS-respect him. You have to demonstrate it.

There are 3 levels of respect: Disrespect, courtesy, and true respect. Most people think that courtesy is respect. It's not. Respect is doing more than treating them like every other stranger you meet. It's better than just treating the waitress respectFULLY. True respect is honoring them. Looking up to them. It's the feeling you had for your father when you were 6. That is the ideal. It's what your husband wants from you. He wants you to be proud of him. He wants you to be proud to be his wife.

Are you? Do you let him know how lucky you are to be married to him? Show it. When he feels respected by you, you will feel loved by him. And you will openly return that love.

*This is the bane of feminism and the misunderstanding about equality. Equality is great and all. We are equal in value, but we are distinct. A man is a lump of gold worth a million dollars. A woman is a pile of diamonds worth a million dollars. Men are the ring. Women are the diamond. Both work together to form the diamond ring. We need to embrace our gender rather than assume that there is nothing different except for our genitalia.

[marinik]

My dear I think most of the women that have been married for over a decade feel that way in some moment in time. It is like and overdose of the same person who didn't turn out to be what we imagined. We want them to be stronger than we are, to be the primary bread winner, to woe us and make us feel loved and in the special. And if possible to help around the house. Oh I can go on and on with my "requirements" after 20 of marriage years and 4 kids. But they are just human and little boys who rarely grow up stuck in these grown up lives with various roles they are supposed to play and are scared big time sometimes. My husband is a big shot but I know who he is really (so does he know me). A few years ago I wanted to kill him every other day how much he went on my nerves. Divorce was on my mind all the time. And then I decided to be the best wife for him and see what happens. I made it a 30 day trial and it worked. The funniest thing is that the love for him "returned" I do not mean the knee shaking, butterflies in my stomach way, just a nice mature love and devotion to a guy that has been here for me for 2 decades inn his own way. I know he still loves me more than I love him. I am not content and I am not accepting this as a "fact of life", sometimes I wish he found somebody to love him for what he is fully and I could move on. But it is easy for me to say with my kids all grown. Give it a bit more time. I know you can live alone, so can I, but try everything first before you close the door behind you. He just might surprise you.

Love m

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

But I don't want to change myself for him.

You should not. You should change yourself for you if you want to. Never for somebody else, that just won´t work.

He wants intimacy, affection, (sexual and otherwise) and says he feels like a roommate, that I don't really need him. And in way, I don't. I know if I was on my own, I would survive. And I'm not afraid to be alone.

I love my husband to death, but I don´t need him either. If I would be alone I would be hurting, but I would survive. I´m not afraid to be alone either. Yet, I still love my husband. Being with him is because of a choice, not a need. I feel this is better.

What I am afraid of is to be someone's nursemaid. Yet I have also been trying to figure out my career path and I want that to be for the greater good--why do I have more compassion for strangers than the man I married?

This is a simple one.. You already have one child and another on the way. You do not want your husband be number 3.
You are looking for a partner, somebody to share adult life with. Not somebody to take unequal care of.
This does not mean that you are a bad person, or that if something would happen and your husband would get ill you would not take care of him lovingly. Because you will...

But in day-to-day life you want a partner.

I'm not going anywhere for awhile, I'm pregnant and have a child already. But new baby aside, I don't want to be with someone for another 10 years if the relationship doesn't have the potential to be a 10.

And you deserve a 10! Don´t forget that and don´t feel guilty about it.

But a relationship and love is work. It doesn´t just happen. You (AND YOUR HUSBAND) have to both work on keeping the spark alive.

Make time to be alone, to go on dates, to tell each other how much you love eachother.

And I wrestle with thoughts of "Am I an arrogant bitch?" because he thinks I don't care about him. He has said that if I loved him, I would rub his back and want sex more. And I am tired, so tired, of him feeling lonely and unloved and doing nothing about it except to tell me so.

You are not an arrogant bitch. You just want a partner who takes equal responsabilty for the relationship, not somebody who puts it all on you.

Having sex and rubbing back might be a sign of love for him, it doesnt have to be a sign of love for you. Everybody is different that way.

For my husband it is me doing things, doing the dishes, rubbing his head, etc. For me it is hearing he loves me and getting small gifts.

In the beginning of the relationship I would tell him he loves me and buy small gifts and he would do things for me... And we would both feel very very unloved.
We talked about it, and now we try to do it the other way around. It works a lot better


I think it is time to sit down and have a good conversation with your husband. It might be a good idea to do this with a therapist to have an independant 3rd party in the room.

You both have to let each other know what it is you need. For you I guess that would be to feel more like your husband is a partner, somebody you can depend on, without being needy. There will most likely be other things as well, and that is ok.

He will also have some things that he needs from you and this relationship.

Than you will have to see how much of it can you give to each other. If there is something you cannot give you have to be honest about it (he as well). It can be a dealbreaker or not, but the other person has the right to know in advance what he is getting into.

Good luck!

And remember. You are not a bitch or selfish. You just want a relationship based on equality and you have a right to that.

[Andrew Gubb]

He "needs" you? That is not a healthy relationship. It feels like he's the sort of man who doesn't have a purpose in life and clings to a woman to make him feel like his life has meaning. Am I right? Perhaps you should tell him that you can't serve him in that way, that no-one can.

He might benefit from a copy of "The Way of the Superior Man" and from reading Steve Pavlina's "How to Be a Man".

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

He "needs" you? That is not a healthy relationship.

Although I agree with this, you also have to take into consideration that different people have different ways of using words.

My husband needs me, and he wants me to need him. For him needing means what wanting means for me.

He will survive without me. He can be happy without me. He will be ok without me. He just doesn´t want to. For him that means needing. For me that means wanting.

So, before getting into fights about words, make sure that you know what the other person is saying is what you think he is saying

Just a little tip so you won´t have to fight the dozens of fights I had to fight before I figured this out.

[Cheshire Cat]

Hi,
To me, love may be selfless but it also is not self-sacrifice. Your happiness is as important as your husband's, but successful relationships do require a bit of cooperation and compromise. Do what feels right for you with consideration to your family as well.

I didn't want to feel like I'd just end up being a nurse-maid to my ex-bf too, but he couldn't show me otherwise that he could be an equal and responsible partner so I broke it off before things could get worse.

When you live with someone daily, I think it's easy to take each other for granted and not be as polite as you would be to a stranger. Familiar/intimate co-habitation settings don't obligate you to continue to make yourself look 'good' in front of the other person because you've already seen each other's dirty laundry, so to speak.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

I know this is probably a question only I can really answer for myself, but I find myself wondering what it means to love someone. I have been with my husband for 13 years (since I was 22) and I get the sense that he loves me more than I love him. He's a good man, and we don't fight much, but when we do I feel like I just want him out of my life. He seems. . . weak. Both of us have had issues with depression in the past, but I feel like I am doing much more to manage my predisposition to it and to change myself for the better. But I don't want to change myself for him.

He wants intimacy, affection, (sexual and otherwise) and says he feels like a roommate, that I don't really need him. And in way, I don't. I know if I was on my own, I would survive. And I'm not afraid to be alone. What I am afraid of is to be someone's nursemaid. Yet I have also been trying to figure out my career path and I want that to be for the greater good--why do I have more compassion for strangers than the man I married?

I'm not going anywhere for awhile, I'm pregnant and have a child already. But new baby aside, I don't want to be with someone for another 10 years if the relationship doesn't have the potential to be a 10. And I wrestle with thoughts of "Am I an arrogant bitch?" because he thinks I don't care about him. He has said that if I loved him, I would rub his back and want sex more. And I am tired, so tired, of him feeling lonely and unloved and doing nothing about it except to tell me so.

i agree with most of what's already been said here. healthy love wants, it does not 'need.' needing to be needed by your partner is often a sign of codependency. living with someone that long, it is common and normal to feel a bit of a rut if both people aren't continuing to make an effort to keep the spark. i get the feeling from your post, Bamboo Moon, that you are irritated with him for seeming needy, clingy, and spineless. you said you both have had issues with depression in the past. then you're probably aware that a short fuse can be a sign of mood stuff. i am curious about what you do to manage the predisposition - are these things he can do as well? and do you express this to him, this feeling like you are doing more of the work? although many people do this anyway, it's not really fair to get incredibly frustrated with someone for a behavior if we haven't come out and said, in a respectful way, that we are not happy with the behavior.

oh, about SmartAlx's post... women can show a man we are proud without looking up to them. you didn't marry your father, you married your husband. and it is totally ok that you don't need your husband. but it sounds like you have moments where you don't want him either, which is common, but it must be at least a little bothersome or you wouldn't have posted here.

what else could your husband do about feeling lonely and unloved? yes, he is responsible for his own feelings, and he can pull some of the weight in the relationship. ideally, relationships involve some degree of compromise. communication is also a biggie. have you told him you'd like to see him do some personal growth things instead of saying things that make you feel like you are responsible for his happiness?

you said you're afraid of being someone's nursemaid. understandable. but i think, reading your post, there might be something else going on there. i wonder if you're afraid of really jumping into this partnership with both feet. fear of intimacy is a common thing. sometimes people simply don't jump in completely so they can avoid the potential for feeling hurt from a relationship. i wonder if that's part of the issue here. of course, if you've been in the relationship for 13 years, this may not be part of it, unless you've felt he loved you more from the beginning.

i agree with those who suggested bringing these things up in front of a professional. i see some resentment there, and a counselor can help you both learn to communicate what you need and want more effectively, which ought to help with the resentment. a counselor can also help you both express your view of what the relationship ought to be - i'm thinking your husband may have a more traditional perspective than you do. or maybe some things are getting lost in translation.

it is not at all selfish to have your own desires and to honor them. love doesn't have to involve a sense of obligation. healthy love starts from the inside, and maybe your husband needs to start there. as he starts drawing love from within himself first and the relationship second, maybe you can do a 30 day trial of communicating your wants and needs a little more? or you can see what a counselor says.

good luck!

[Bamboo Moon]

Originally Posted by rei

you said you're afraid of being someone's nursemaid. understandable. but i think, reading your post, there might be something else going on there. i wonder if you're afraid of really jumping into this partnership with both feet.

Thanks for all the perspectives, I appreciate it. You've given me a lot to think about. In fact, I wrote the post and then was afraid to even read the replies, which is why I'm only getting back to it now.

I think part of the problem is that when our first child was born, we both had post-partum depression. I ended up going to a therapist and went on meds for a little while. He refused, saying I could cure his depression by caring about him more. He stopped washing and brushing his teeth (while still complaining about no sex), started a huge fight because I wouldn't agree to buy a custom made $5,000 sex doll, and then started threatened to have an affair, telling me I would deserve it if he did (because we weren't having enough sex). And then he started threatening to leave us. Twice he packed his bags, but did not leave. The third time, he packed his bags and waited for my reaction and at that point I was impassive. He accused me of being cold-hearted and then left, telling me I could have stopped this if I had called his bluff. Later, he wrote an emotional letter saying he never chose to leave, but I forced him to.

I say this not to badmouth him, because he hasn't ever been that bad again. But I feel like he went a little mad, and when he did finally leave, he broke a piece of my heart. He did end up on meds and going to a therapist. I thought I had forgiven him, but I was afraid to have another child with him, and didn't for a long time. And especially sexually, though I do enjoy it, I find it hard to connect with him intimately. Which means, yep, this probably needs a counselor.

[Michael Chui]

The defining quality of love, in my experience, has been curiosity. To love someone is to engage your brain in thinking about them, to try to figure them out, and to find out more about them. It's more than that, of course, but that's a critical piece that seems to explain why some relationships work and some don't.

It sounds to me that your problems are rooted a lot further back than your first child. It makes me wonder why you agreed to get married. Do you remember?

You've told us a lot about why you disagree with and dislike him. Why do you like him?

[Bamboo Moon]

When we met, I was sort of at a crossroads of my life. I had entered grad school (though it was no longer a good fit) and I was struggling with my religious beliefs (I had been brought up as a conservative Christian) He helped me let go and move forward with better choices. He introduced me to Eastern philosophy and we talked a lot. And I knew he would be a really good dad, though we didn't have kids until later.

Generally, he gives me a lot of freedom, which is probably what I love most about him. He is very artistically talented, he has written music and been on indie labels (10 or so CDs), he can write, draw, paint, and sculpt. He also lets me handle the joint account money, which I prefer. He is not a bad man, not at all. There is a lot of good in our relationship, which is why sometimes I struggle with where we're going.

I want to be a better person--I have been focusing on eating right, exercising, and doing yoga. I also watch less tv and find that I'm not so into horror movies. These things do not interest him. It's probably not fair--I'm the one who's changing.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

Thanks for all the perspectives, I appreciate it. You've given me a lot to think about. In fact, I wrote the post and then was afraid to even read the replies, which is why I'm only getting back to it now.

I think part of the problem is that when our first child was born, we both had post-partum depression. I ended up going to a therapist and went on meds for a little while. He refused, saying I could cure his depression by caring about him more. He stopped washing and brushing his teeth (while still complaining about no sex), started a huge fight because I wouldn't agree to buy a custom made $5,000 sex doll, and then started threatened to have an affair, telling me I would deserve it if he did (because we weren't having enough sex). And then he started threatening to leave us. Twice he packed his bags, but did not leave. The third time, he packed his bags and waited for my reaction and at that point I was impassive. He accused me of being cold-hearted and then left, telling me I could have stopped this if I had called his bluff. Later, he wrote an emotional letter saying he never chose to leave, but I forced him to.

I say this not to badmouth him, because he hasn't ever been that bad again. But I feel like he went a little mad, and when he did finally leave, he broke a piece of my heart. He did end up on meds and going to a therapist. I thought I had forgiven him, but I was afraid to have another child with him, and didn't for a long time. And especially sexually, though I do enjoy it, I find it hard to connect with him intimately. Which means, yep, this probably needs a counselor.

This guy is very manipulative and emotionally out of whack. I know what it's like to be stuck on a person for their good points but end up suffering more than enjoying the experience... you should really look for something better, I think. Perhaps a self-esteem issue is holding you down with him. Or maybe you're at the same level, but from the sound of your writing, I don't get that vibe.

People get into relationships to learn something, find out what that is for you and learn it if you can. If you complete the lesson he should fade out of your life pretty naturally (fade out, or explode out, one or the other, but it shouldn't feel hard to let go, anyway).

There are other fish in the sea

Andrew

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

When we met, I was sort of at a crossroads of my life. I had entered grad school (though it was no longer a good fit) and I was struggling with my religious beliefs (I had been brought up as a conservative Christian) He helped me let go and move forward with better choices. He introduced me to Eastern philosophy and we talked a lot. And I knew he would be a really good dad, though we didn't have kids until later.

How much time does he spend with the kid(s) you have now? What's he like with him? Or her? Does he still seem like a good dad, in light of everything else you've told us about him?

When was the last time you talked about philosophy or religion?

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

Generally, he gives me a lot of freedom, which is probably what I love most about him. He is very artistically talented, he has written music and been on indie labels (10 or so CDs), he can write, draw, paint, and sculpt. He also lets me handle the joint account money, which I prefer. He is not a bad man, not at all. There is a lot of good in our relationship, which is why sometimes I struggle with where we're going.

This was all written in the past tense. Is he doing his art now? Is he doing it for a living? Does he enjoy what he does for a living? What does he do in his spare time? What do you think of it?

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

I want to be a better person--I have been focusing on eating right, exercising, and doing yoga. I also watch less tv and find that I'm not so into horror movies. These things do not interest him. It's probably not fair--I'm the one who's changing.

You are, and if he isn't, then you do have a problem. A marriage is two people holding hands, and if one walks while the other doesn't, it becomes strained. But if both walk in opposite directions, it is strained even more.

You've said you're unwilling to change yourself for him: why? There are good reasons and there are bad reasons, and it would be worth figuring out which yours are.

A lot of people responding have suggested leaving him in one way or another. Would you fight for custody of your children, if you did? Would he?

[Bamboo Moon]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

How much time does he spend with the kid(s) you have now? What's he like with him? Or her? Does he still seem like a good dad, in light of everything else you've told us about him?

When was the last time you talked about philosophy or religion?

No, I stand by it--he is generally a good dad. He plays with our daughter, reads to her, takes her to and from school, and is involved in a good way. Sometimes he is moody around her, but I wouldn't say it's a level where the bad outweighs the good. We still do talk philosophy and religion currently (last time, 2 days ago)

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

This was all written in the past tense. Is he doing his art now? Is he doing it for a living? Does he enjoy what he does for a living? What does he do in his spare time? What do you think of it?

Sadly, no, no, and no. Typically he plays videogames or watches Japanese horror, though he also does domestic chores. He is slowly getting back into creating, but tends to overthink and ends up not creating anything.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

You've said you're unwilling to change yourself for him: why?

A lot of people responding have suggested leaving him in one way or another. Would you fight for custody of your children, if you did? Would he?

Going backwards, if it came to custody, it would be probably be 50:50 and I would not fight that. They are his children too, I would want things to be fair, and I certainly wouldn't take them away from him, unless I thought they were being abused.

The harder question--I don't know all the reasons I'm unwilling to change for him. I know I wouldn't want to make any backwards changes, i.e., not exercising because he doesn't and that sort of thing. His main gripe about me is that I'm not loving enough. I think for me, it does come down to resentment. I feel like I am already trying to do so much, and reaching to be a better person, but my criteria for that is obviously different from his. And I get angry, being basically told that I'm not good enough.

So. . .not really great reasons, as it's not coming from a place of love.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

No, I stand by it--he is generally a good dad. He plays with our daughter, reads to her, takes her to and from school, and is involved in a good way. Sometimes he is moody around her, but I wouldn't say it's a level where the bad outweighs the good. We still do talk philosophy and religion currently (last time, 2 days ago)

That's good to hear. With this, it doesn't sound like your relationship is anywhere near as bad as it sounded initially. Both of those are good things to keep up.

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

Sadly, no, no, and no. Typically he plays videogames or watches Japanese horror, though he also does domestic chores. He is slowly getting back into creating, but tends to overthink and ends up not creating anything.

Is he familiar with NaNoWriMo at all? I imagine painting and sculpting are perhaps more expensive hobbies, but I think it would benefit him to use NaNoWriMo's concept and apply it: screw quality, get some stuff created.

One way you might be able to cultivate his creative side is by listening to his music while you're alone, if you enjoy it. I see that you appreciate his success, but do you enjoy the content of what he makes? You could see this as a way to help him grow himself, without any backsliding on your part. Of course, he may not believe it at first, or it might not work at all, but it's something you can try. As I said: curiosity is the critical component in love.

Originally Posted by Bamboo Moon

The harder question--I don't know all the reasons I'm unwilling to change for him. I know I wouldn't want to make any backwards changes, i.e., not exercising because he doesn't and that sort of thing. His main gripe about me is that I'm not loving enough. I think for me, it does come down to resentment. I feel like I am already trying to do so much, and reaching to be a better person, but my criteria for that is obviously different from his. And I get angry, being basically told that I'm not good enough.

So. . .not really great reasons, as it's not coming from a place of love.

Alright, well, this is something more substantial that you can work with, though.

First, that might be his main gripe, but very few people have ever been able to adequately express what they really want. For me, saying something like, "not loving enough" is meaningless. You've mentioned backrubs and sex as concrete examples, so he sounds like the kind of person who prefers physical touch. Another thread recently brought up "five love languages", which talks about how different people respond to and express themselves lovingly in different ways. I'd suggest buying that and going through it; just ignore all the religious stuff.

Second, resentment is a common problem. You might do a search on this forum to see what has been said on the subject. Solving resentment usually boils down to figuring out what's a valid gripe and what's not, and then reasoning with your husband about the invalid stuff and picking up the valid stuff.

Third, it isn't your husband's fault that he doesn't have the same idea of you as a better person. It isn't your fault, either. What is your fault is the anger, though I would guess that it's more frustration than anger. Yoga is good for dealing with that.

Fourth, you have some expectations of your husband. I think that's pretty clear to you. That's why you feel confusion, resentment, and frustration. Now, your husband also has some expectations of you. The problem is that both of these expectations aren't realistic. Perhaps they were originally, perhaps 13 years ago, but they're obviously causing problems at this point. So while you can't make your husband try this, try releasing your expectations of him. Sure, you want him to grow and become even better than he is already, but you don't control that and you shouldn't, just as he can't and shouldn't control how you grow.

Fifth, definitely go see that counselor with him. I've tried my best to do what I can, but I'm no professional and I don't have your husband's perspective to work with. That's what counselors are for.

You seem to have hit a pretty huge bump that's been building for a while, but I don't think it's remotely a lost cause. You're right: he does sound like a good man. He'll never be perfect (and neither will you, or anyone), and he definitely needs to grow up a bit, especially with the threats and the dramatics, but he's neither stupid nor impossible. You've got a store of patience that can weather this and I see no dangers you couldn't handle.

Oh. And I think you love him more than you give yourself credit for. This is just one more area where you can grow.

Whew, I said a lot. Sorry about that.

[Betrade]

Lots o good opinions here, but there's one that I couldn't find.

Love is way more than a feeling. It's also a decision in many cases. if it weren't, how could we possibly "love our enemies"?? That would be impossible if love required no conscious choice.

Anyone can choose to love anyone. That's not to say that they'll have those crazy, TEMPORARY butterfly feelings for that person, but love is also a verb; and action; a choice.

If you really want good marriage counseling, try saving your 150 bucks an hour for a "professional" counselor and take a couple who have been happily married for 50 years out to lunch or dinner and pick their brains for an hour or two. You'll learn way more that way than from a "professional" in many cases; believe me. I GUARANTEE you that you will also find that one or both parties made a conscious decision to MAKE the marraige work at some point, or at several points in time. They'll probably also tell you how happy they are that they made that decision and din't throw away what they had. Successfully married couples can mentor you; especially when you need help through rough periods. They have knowledge that can ONLY be learned through making a successful marriage work. No textbook on Earth contains that type of wisdom.

I WISH I had though of that before my own marriage came to an end because the aftermath has been negative in some ways for everyone involved; especially the kids. They know they're loved and are close to both parents; see both of us daily, but they still got their world rocked. Everyone was hurt at some level.

That doesn't mean that everyone is walking around sad and depressed or anything like that; but there are scars, and they'll always be there. The same as if we had all been sliced with a sharp knife. The wound heals but the scar remains. You learn and move on, but once ion a while, they creep into your consciousness and you have to consciously deal with them. It's just becomes part of who we are and who we become after the fact.

That puppy dog "in love" feeling is fleeting and we can choose to accept someone and love thenm for who they are; or not. If you can hold that crazy feeling for 3-5 years you're probably in the minority; because it often wanes before that much time has passed. It's a hormonal response that both men and women get when they're "in love". many people find that when that ends, they feel like they no longer love that person, but love is way more than just a feeling.

In your case, you have another child on the way; so you'd better think long and hard, discern wisely, and keep the lines of communication wide open. Tell your husband how you're feeling and be bold about it; and tell him exactly what you need. Also keep in mind that your pregnancy itself may be affecting your feelings too. I know when my wife was pregnant she became very different than usual (duh). That's perfectly normal. You also have more needs when you're pregnant. Tell your husbands that and don't be shy about it. He can't read your mind and you can't assume that "if he really loved me, he would....". That's not realistic. Communicate. You can never have too much communication.

Also keep in mind that you and he have created yet another miraculous life together; a brand new human being who's totally dependent on you and him; and that's wonderful thing. He's your children's father; and no one can ever take his place no matter what you decide to do about your marriage.

But; ASK him how he feels and what he needs and then both of you can choose to accomodate one another; if you want to make that choice, and act on it. Marriage has to be proactive. You can't just assume it will happen spontaneously and work out just fine without some type of plan, strategy, commitment, sacrifice where necessary, and selflessness when necessary on both parts.

You already know that you would lay down your very life for your kids without a moment's hesitation. That's selflessness, so you're already more than capable of it. That's also a choice whether you realize it or not. It's not something beyond your capability; and if you can do it for one; you can do it for another.

It's not that complicated. If two willing people choose to make a marriage work, they can. That's not to say you want to, or that you'll always be happy, but you can always have joy if you want it. You can; and so can he.

You can also remember to be mindful that you have someone who loves you so much, is loyal and faithful and will likely never leave you or forsake you. Count those blessings every day. If you actually count therm, you'll be amazed at how numerous they are.

Unconditional love is not the easiest thing to find in the world and if you have it, you just may want to consider hanging onto it. Your "unhappiness" may be just as fleeting as your "in love feeling".

Lots of people call what married couples have together codependency or whatever, but who cares?? Couples are dependent on one another for certain things. That's just the way marriages are and that's not necessarily bad. The "professionals" have definitely over analyzed some of these things to death when sometimes they're actually so simple a child can see them clearly.

Also keep in mind that YOU may need a nurse maid one day and he just may be the one who chooses to do the job because he loves you. That's not such a bad thing is it??

[AliB1959]

Bamboo Moon, you sound exhausted. It's frustrating when the person who is your equal/partner in your main relationship refuses to act like an equal/partner and be responsible for their own actions and feelings.

What you're describing reminds me of John Bradshaw's shows on family dynamics. It seems like the steadier and middle of the road you are, the crazier and "out there" your husbands behavior becomes. You keep the core steady and by finding the place (or attitude you have to take) to keep things from going off the deep end.

Having kids of your own brings up stuff from your childhood (your husbands, too) and he very well could be subconciously working out some things from his childhood. What was his parents marriage like?

At any rate, it sounds like you need a few days of R & R without all the pressure and drama. Maybe grandparents can take your daughter and you can get away by yourself to just relax and get some rest. Being tired, pregnant and frustrated/angry/resentful is not a good time to make major life decisions, but it can be a great time to journal, get some self time and find a fresh perspective.

Take good care of yourself. What you want for yourself and in your life matters - it's not being arrogant or selfish.

Ali

[amj]

Bamboo Moon, you should leave him. Tell him exactly how you feel. You are hurting yourself by staying with him... But if you enjoy being in pain, then stay with him. I know that's pretty blunt but it's the truth.

He's the one who needs help. You can try to find him help but staying in the relationship won't work and you know it.