Reframing Rejection & Overcoming Mysogyny

[Johnny Soporno]

An alarming number of men I've met have developed an open hostility towards women - sometimes bordering on genuine misogyny.
This is never helpful for anyone, and it ensures an extended, or perhaps permanent, form of existential misery to anyone who suffers from it.

Whenever I encounter these symptoms, I try to root-out the source of their contempt, resentment, and pain - to see if there's an appropriate way to reframe their situation so that they can benefit from it, instead of wallowing in self-imposed celibacy, or other equally contempt-reinforcing habits.

Most often, I hear the exact same complaints:

I bought her drinks all night, and she left with another guy;
She gave me a phony number;
She never took/returned my calls;
She keeps flaking on me when we make plans...

Or worse still:

I took her for an expensive dinner, a show, a nightcap, and I was all-ready to bring her back to my place - when she told me "Let's Just Be Friends";

Or EVEN worse still:

I took her for expensive dinner after expensive dinner, took her out clubbing, shopping, took her on business trips, paid off her Visa bill... - and she told me "Let's Just Be Friends"!

Now, these guys aren't suggesting that they developed this 'hate-on' for women based upon any of these things happening JUST ONCE - these are the same consistent results they keep getting, time and time again!

So I have frequently tell them this metaphor, to help them reframe their experiences, and to attribute their results to the proper culprits...

You see, I like to go fishing. Every once-in-a-while I'll go out to a gorgeous, deep freshwater lake I know, where the water is absolutely clear - you can see right down to the bottom!

Let me tell you, his lake is teeming with spectacular fish - I'll go out there with my simple rod and reel, settle in for a few hours, and pull in all sorts of really impressive catches!

Now, there are some people I'll notice that will go out to that very same place where I go, hoping to have the same kind of results I do; only these guys will often have gone-out dropped a fortune on gear! They'll have bought themselves a stylin' Escalade, with a tow-hitch for their high-powered motorboat... These guys have will have bought premium gear - all outfitted just-right! Expensive, state-of-the-art Teflon rods, LED-augmented lures, pheromonaly-scented worms, whatever!

They'll go out on the lake, basically to the same place I am, maybe 30 feet away from me... I'll watch them put their hooks on the line and and their worms on the hooks, and I'll watch them toss their lines out into the water.

Now like I said, the water in this lake is completely clear, and you can watch everything as the fish swim right up to their line, sniff around for a moment, and then swim away.

Sometimes you'll see the fish swim up to their line and nibble on the bait -and as the fish are nibbling, the guys will get obvious excited, because they can see the fish too! ...and they'll sit there and watch the as the fish nibble until there's no bait left, and then simply swim away, disinterested.

Sometimes a really beautiful fish will come by and grab their line, and you'll see the guys get into position as the fish starts to swim away with the hook, only to watch in depression as the fish breaks the line, and disappears with their bait...

Sometimes they'll keep the fish on the line, playing it and seeming like their doing things right, to the point where you'll see the fish come right up to the surface! ...and then fall off the line, never to be seen again.

I'll watch their frustration and angst, as they go about setting their gear up again, precisely the same way as before - and their angry distress at having exactly the same results - time and again.

When any of these guys are there, I KNOW they'll have been watching me, as I'm making great pulls with ease, and I can see in their eyes that their stares are filled with daggers... So I'll go up to these guys, in a friendly & supportive way, and ask. 'Wow, lousy day, huh?'

They'll reply, hotly: "Oh, those STUPID, EVIL FISH! They're so manipulative, they're out to get me, they hate me! They just want my bait, but they know I'll keep putting more worms out there as long as it looks like I might get lucky!"

The reality, of course, is that they're fish - and they are doing what's in their nature... and they don't hate us; but they are certainly wary of us, and cautious around us... because they don't want to become anyone's trophy!

So I say to these guys, 'Hey guys! You've got the right equipment; you've got the right bait... but you're not pulling any fish out of this lake?

IN THAT CASE, THE PROBLEM IS YOU! The fish are here! They've been biting all day - it's what you are doing that isn't working.

Stop looking at the fish like they're wicked, nasty, evil fish. They aren't.
They aren't manipulative, they're not scandalous - and there's absolutely no justification to be angry with THEM.

The only thing consistent in ALL your failed relationships is YOU!

If you'd been doing things in the way the fish ACTUALLY WANTED, rather than in the ways that you presuppose fish would want, you'd have no-room left in your boat from all the fish!

So take a step back and say 'Gee, why don't I see whether or not what I'm doing is the reason I’m not succeeding?' and stop blaming the objects of your desire for your own inability to pull them in.



Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[DerekH]

Excellent Johnny!

[blossom]

This is a really good metaphor Johnny...I really enjoyed reading it, and it gave me some hope that their are males out there who actually recognize that the expectations they anyone places on another...i.e...buying drinks, dinner = guarenteed sex...will only lead to disappointment, (and possibly a rape charge), which is the reaction of the person feeling that way because they didn't get what they wanted, and instead of looking at themselves and really examining it, they just blame "the fish".

Women do it too in their own way. I just think if each gender spent more time trying to actually UNDERSTAND how the other operates in their mind, and then appreciate that and work on communicating in a way that each person can respond to because they feel like they are appreciated and understood...things might work alot better! Instead of placing all these expectations on the other sex and then blaming them when it doesn't go your way...

VERY insightful, thanks for sharing that.

[brendannz]

Great post Johnny,

Personally, I think this anger is less about misogyny itself and more about fragile egos and fear of perceived vulnerability. But not sure, because nobody emails me to tell them their stories like they do to you..

I guess guys need to know, that spending money on women to get an outcome, is only good for prostitutes..

[Michelle]

I am very impressed.

Excellent writing.

It still gets me wondering that a man will actually expect a love relationship in return for doing or buying something for a woman. Last time I checked that was called prostitution. Real love does not need to be bought and cannot be forced ... it is freely given, without expectation.

Otherwise, in 2009, split the tab

[James81]

I've heard that metaphor before somewhere.

Drives the point home pretty good. We, as people, aren't very good with accepting our failures, so we tend to look for someone to blame, even if we're in the wrong.

It definately helps when we accept our share of responsibility in what we're doing wrong.

(Oh and kudos to you for finally writing a post that isn't overly bolded, colored, or underlined. )

[Cyllya]

Originally Posted by blossom

Women do it too in their own way. I just think if each gender spent more time trying to actually UNDERSTAND how the other operates in their mind, and then appreciate that and work on communicating in a way that each person can respond to because they feel like they are appreciated and understood...things might work alot better! Instead of placing all these expectations on the other sex and then blaming them when it doesn't go your way...

What's depressing is that men and women are a lot more similar than a lot of people think. Just trying to put yourself in the other person's shoes could go a long way toward understanding him/her, but people think, "I can't put myself in this person's shoes because we aren't the same sex."

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

What's depressing is that men and women are a lot more similar than a lot of people think. Just trying to put yourself in the other person's shoes could go a long way toward understanding him/her, but people think, "I can't put myself in this person's shoes because we aren't the same sex."

Treating others how you'd like to be treated (even if they're the opposite sex) is a good starting point, then once you know them well, you can put yourselves in their shoes.. I think.

It's all a learning experience, so it's impossible to relate to people without making mistakes along the way, I think. But what Johnny is saying, is that these guys DON'T learn from their mistakes and blame women for the same mistakes over and over.. (some women do too, I've heard)

Whereas guys should learn from their mistakes, and not beat themselves, or women up for their mistakes..

Similar to Thomas Edison saying "I didn't fail 3,000 times. I found 3,000 ways how not to create a lightbulb"

That's a lesson I'm in the process of learning, I think..

[LWr]

Originally Posted by blossom

I just think if each gender spent more time trying to actually UNDERSTAND how the other operates in their mind [...]

This is actually a pretty bad way to go for men, as we simply cannot understand it. We can learn how it works, and accept it, but we will never, ever understand it.

[LWr]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

What's depressing is that men and women are a lot more similar than a lot of people think. Just trying to put yourself in the other person's shoes could go a long way toward understanding him/her, but people think, "I can't put myself in this person's shoes because we aren't the same sex."

When it comes to sexual attraction, this simply isn't true.
Proof of this: these guys buying drinks/dinners etc are doing exactly that, and failing.


The basis of this frustration/misogyny is this: jerks get more attention from girls than 'nice guys'. (please read on) This is frustrating to the 'nice guys' for obvious reasons. They cannot accept that someone who probably respects women a lot less than they do is getting so much more success. They then come to the conclusion that 'women are dumb, they like guys who don't respect them, and they don't like me even though I'm the nicest guy ever'.

What they don't realize is what the 'jerks' have that they don't.
It's not a very big secret, it's confidence. Being 'too nice' with someone reeks of insecurity. It looks like that person feels he cannot be liked by being himself, so he needs to go over bounds to be nice.

The answer isn't for them to become a**holes, it's to gain some self-esteem. This is a vicious circle however, as every rejection lowers their confidence and self-esteem.

[DerekH]

Originally Posted by LWr

The answer isn't for them to become a**holes, it's to gain some self-esteem. This is a vicious circle however, as every rejection lowers their confidence and self-esteem.

Rejection creates indifference.

[James81]

Originally Posted by LWr

This is actually a pretty bad way to go for men, as we simply cannot understand it. We can learn how it works, and accept it, but we will never, ever understand it.

Women aren't that hard to understand. Sure, they do crazy things sometimes that doesn't make logical sense, but when you stop thinking of them as logical people and start thinking in terms of their emotional processes and all the different stuff going on with their bodies (reproductive type stuff), then their actions become very clear.

[Mogget]

Expecting sex in exchange for dinner (or expecting groping in exchange for a drink) is a vibe that most women are going to walk away from quite briskly, so the problem is not that mysterious.... love the metaphor ... "manipulative fish" *snort*

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by LWr

This is actually a pretty bad way to go for men, as we simply cannot understand it. We can learn how it works, and accept it, but we will never, ever understand it.

What is it that you don't understand about women?

It's a bit dangerous to generalize about men never understanding women. Speak for yourself, please .

I too think that treating others like you want to be treated yourself is sound advice, no matter the gender of the other.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by LWr

...
They then come to the conclusion that 'women are dumb, they like guys who don't respect them, and they don't like me even though I'm the nicest guy ever'.
...

Then they should examine their thinking processes. The conclusion is wrong. I've been there myself by the way, so I know that type of thinking very well.

[marinik]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I too think that treating others like you want to be treated yourself is sound advice, no matter the gender of the other.

We agree again!!! Where is the world going to!!!

First of all some of the women would rather have a nice walk and a hot-dog and get to know you, a bit, then a fancy dinner after which she knows "what is expected of her" apriori!

Even when we are attracted initially we need a bit more time and to be sure so a few hours of walking ant talking does the trick. Or a few walks...

BTW I love a good restaurant and a "fancy" dinners but with someone I have been with for a while. If he would take me there for the first time it would feel like I've been blackmailed. So I would test his interest and play cool. What is there not to understand???

[Bradshaw]

Please. PD people should love being rejected. What are you doing ?!

'I got rejected! Bwahaha. Now I shall gather these experiences and learn from them and become even more powerful. What a wonderful experience. Now come, Life! Continue making me stronger! '

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that people like nice people (shocking, I know).

However, if I am correct, the definition of a nice guy seems to be a passive, weak, wimpish, letting others walk all over him, cowardly, manipulative and lacking confidence kind of person.

Well, yeah, I imagine it's tough to be attracted to someone like that. Would you be attracted to a woman like that?

I'm a quiet guy. Not really shy, meh, just quiet. I like to listen. I'm nice. I don't drink alcohol; I don't use any kind of insults at all, ever. I'll approach a girl and ask her out or something if i want to. I want to rule the world(). I'm quite average in the looks department. And girls are attracted to me.

I sort of dislike doing dinner or lunch dates. I mean everyone does that, blergh . I just like going around town and treat it all as some giant childhood adventure and then go to the park and just roll in the grass or something while making fun of the girl's top being dirty. Who cares, lol.

Niceness is never a problem.

Passivity, weakness, wimpishness, letting people walk all over you, lack of courage, manipulative tendencies and lack of confidence is.

So be a confident nice guy.

And be a confident nice woman.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

So be a confident nice guy.

And be a confident nice woman.

You can only be one or the other really?

I agree, everyone likes nice and honest people, but it's just good policy, it's not really your unique character...

and plus expecting something in return is manipulation

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by marinik

First of all some of the women would rather have a nice walk and a hot-dog and get to know you, a bit

Agree, I always enjoyed these simple/laid-back dates the most.
Without the hot-dog though, not a big fan

[ar81]

The problem I see is that men are educated to be rude among men.
When it comes to women, then we think "hey, I do not understand women".
Of course we don't. They are not like men.
If you came from than world of men, getting into the world of women is hard.

Rejection. Is it so terrible?
A salesman will see that among 100 people, 10 people say "your product is great" but usually only one will buy. A salesman who has a 13% sucess is an outstanding and exceptional one.
Same happens when a man goes to seek a woman.
What's the big deal with rejection?
My first time it took me 9 rejections until I found a girl who said yes.
Ah!! You probably watched crappy Hollywood tales about being successful the first time... I have some news for you. Hollywood is fiction. Hollywood is not even capable to make historical movies accurate and reliable.

Unfortunately for men who look for sex, women are smarter than men.
The only women a man can take advantage is a naive one, but women do not remain naive for too long. And as a general rule, it is not good to upset a woman. The most fierce and fearsome combatants in every war zone are usually women. You may not want to fight with a woman.

You may not want to betray a woman, or mistreat her, or use her, because the laws of life will cause you to be treated in the same way in the future... well, unlike you enjoy suffering.

So the best is to take out the best of us, and bring out the best of women.

We all want to be happy. So try to be happy with your life, then you may look for a woman you may want to share that happiness.

[Brien]

Not to be a wet blanket, but I don't think the OP is as well written as many of the responders praise it.

The fish/fishermen metaphor is a bit strained, don't you think? After all, fish aren't trying to be caught by a fisherman, no matter how excellent an example of a fisherman he is. That's only the beginning of how convoluted and misleading the metaphor is.

Moving on, misogyny isn't just for the dating reject. Being upset that you can't attract a mate isn't misogyny, even if you blame women instead of yourself. Sometimes, the most successful studs are the best examples of misogynists. It's a complicated thing, gender relations.

Anyway, I don't want to rain on the thread. There are good points made. Like, for example, people want to be treated well, people don't like being manipulated into sex, people don't like be used, etc.

On a final note, I'll say that I've never had to spend a dime to attract high-quality women. In fact, I consider that to be a very good filter.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Brien

Not to be a wet blanket, but I don't think the OP is as well written as many of the responders praise it.

Fair enough

Metaphor and analogy are imprecise by their nature - they serve to recraft and reframe complex concepts into something which is emotionally and perceptually accessible.

Originally Posted by Brien

The fish/fishermen metaphor is a bit strained, don't you think? After all, fish aren't trying to be caught by a fisherman, no matter how excellent an example of a fisherman he is.

Good point! The fish are sublimely unaware of the EXISTENCE of the fishermen, in most cases - and they are simply trying to accomplish the acquisition of something to eat.

If the fisherman missteps, and through using inappropriate bait, or an over-abundance of bait, or poorly hides the hook beneath the bait, then the fish will not bite, and the fisherman will either realize his mistakes, and proactively alter his processes to enhance his chances of success, OR he might become infuriated, (or despondent, or spiteful, or any other pointlessly negative emotion) and blame the fish, or the act of fishing, for his disappointment.

Originally Posted by Brien

Being upset that you can't attract a mate isn't misogyny, even if you blame women instead of yourself.

That's true, certainly. Being shorter than 5'4 (<163cm) doesn't make most men hate tall men, even though SOME short men might blame their lack of success as, say, professional basketball players on taller men. In fact, some men who lack great height believe themselves to be victims of some nasty slight, and they tragically assume a persecution complex, which causes them to become misanthropic and mean-spirited, and lash out hostilely at people who do not deserve it.

Originally Posted by Brien

Sometimes, the most successful studs are the best examples of misogynists.

Here, we differ on the definition of the word "successful".

What I believe you were suggesting is that many men who can be observed to persuade women to go to bed with them are genuine misogynists?

This is true due to tragic and fundamental crises of both self-esteem and self-respect on both sides, and surely denies any measure of success!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[cylon]

Men are raised to believe that women like complacent nice guys who bend to their every whim, ala Everyone Loves Raymond. When they get older, and realize that not only is this not effective, but is in fact the exact opposite of how men and women successfully relate to each other, they justifiably get mad that they were brought up believing a lie.

When a man learns that women actually don't like spineless jelly fish, it's extremely common for him to proclaim he'll be the other type: a selfish, arrogant, bad-boy jerk instead. I think this is a phase. A band-aid that gives men a little more armor and success while they hopefully learn what is the real deal behind this whole thing.

Men do not hate women. They hate the false beliefs they willingly adopted in order to do what they thought women wanted, what they thought would make it easier to get closer to them and care for them. It comes off as woman-hating. It's really just love and compassion and caring FOR women, turned in on itself into something ugly.

It's a rude awakening. Some guys see through the lie early on and are happy and healthy and successful with women. Some guys find out later in life, and those neruo-pathways are laid down pretty deep. There can be a lot of false starts along the way to seeing the truth of how the sexes really relate to each other.

I really don't think men hate women. Men are just as human as women, and we desire love and affection and real companionship just as much as women. We were just raised to believe that black was white and up was down. The only way to end this trend is to just point it out. To refuse to be politically correct about sex. To embrace the differences between men and women, between masculinity and femininity, and realizing that they are not actually at odds with each other... both poles perfectly complement each other, yin yang. Not yin yin or yang yang, as much as the p.c. crowd would wish that were so.

Having said all that, once a man gets over his anger and frustration, he can start to see women for what they are: just people. No more or less important or significant or special, then a man is. Then he can see the actual woman, and not the years of conditioning.

In my experience, what women respond to most is being seen for who they truly ARE, not as some idealized perfect princess fantasy, or some gold-digging, parasitic opportunist, but as human beings who are just as imperfectly perfect as they are.

BTW I remember this fishing analogy from Johnny's free videos, from a few years ago... so props to Johnny, you've been one of the teachers I've looked to over the last few years and my awareness of truth has increased since then.

[rei]

hi Johnny,

i haven't been on this forum for very long, but i have noticed most of your threads and posts are connected to a central theme. and i am curious about your intentions. (also, the whole fishing metaphor is a bit cliche, but i suppose it isn't cliche to those who aren't familiar with it... aside from the cliche thing, i do think your post was well-written. a very eloquent way of telling guys to accept responsibility for their role in something.)

so yeah... your intentions... is your goal to provide fuel for the pick up artist who only wants to garner additional notches on his belt? or is your goal to help guys increase self-esteem and self-love to attract committed partnerships? i suppose you might say your goal is to support whatever goal the male has for himself... i'm just wondering whether you have no problem contributing to the manipulative nature of the former PUA goal.

i did read your latest post to this thread, and if i were going to make an assumption i would say your goal is to help guys increase self-esteem and self-love to attract a healthy and longer-than-one-night partnership (with an additional goal of assisting men in applying your suggestions to life in general). but i like to sidestep assumption when i can, so i'm still asking my question.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by rei

hi Johnny,

i haven't been on this forum for very long, but i have noticed most of your threads and posts are connected to a central theme. and i am curious about your intentions.

Well, if you have a few minutes, and a sincere interest in discovering what I'm trying to communicate, please point your browser at the links I have included as my signature - they are all local threads I've begun

Originally Posted by rei

so yeah... your intentions... is your goal to provide fuel for the pick up artist who only wants to garner additional notches on his belt? or is your goal to help guys increase self-esteem and self-love....

The latter, absolutely!

Originally Posted by rei

i'm just wondering whether you have no problem contributing to the manipulative nature of the former PUA goal.

Heh - I can't thank you enough for asking this question, because I am hopeful it will inspire not only yourself, but others reading this to check out those linked-to threads I'd begun!

In particular, please check this one immediately!

A 'Pick Up Artist' is ultimately a 'Con Artist' in the arena of the sexual predator

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[rei]

ok, yes... i decided to peruse the links. i've confirmed that you are not simply encouraging the objectification of women, which is nice (i bet i'm preaching to the choir when i share my opinion that men who treat women as objects are basically terrified of relating to women as people, only they are also scared of admitting to any perceived sign of weakness, so it comes across as arrogant or indifferent.. a stoic appearance is a sign of feeling vulnerable.) i'll share a bit more of my perception and you can confirm or correct as you wish.

- you are sharing these ideas to help guys get over their fear of women, to increase confidence and healthy sense of self, because basically each man on this planet is born with a natural ability to attract the perfect-for-him person - and it's really just a matter of removing the externally-constructed barriers to authentic expression (those barriers might be reinforced by the internal aspects, but they originated from outside ... perhaps my own personal system is butting in here).

- you (possibly) use the language of PUA to increase exposure of the audience to a healthier approach, and to pique curiosity so more will be interested in the message. basically, it's your gimmick, only "gimmick" has a negative connotation... more like a hook maybe (like "hook" is positive...lol... ok, you get what i mean though).

- one can also extend all the ideas about women to the individual self... basically it's also about having a fulfilling love relationship with one's self.

yes? thanks for the clarification Johhny.

[James81]

rei, if you followed his links, you'd be able to deduce for yourself what he's all about.

(btw, I say that in a literal sense without any implication whatsoever about what he's about...I'm literally saying that if you read a few of his threads, you'll understand pretty clearly what his intentions are, what he believes about women/men and their relationships, etc.)

[cylon]

I think if a man is genuine in his search for the truth, PUA for a time may or may not be helpful to him, but he can't be trapped by it.

In other words, people who have bad intentions at heart will find their way to others with bad intentions. People who have the best intentions will find their way to that, too... no matter what paths or avenues they may find themselves exploring on the way to their destination.

[blossom]

Cylon: I found your earlier post to be very insightful also, and it's helping me alot to heal in my own thoughts towards males, and understand their behaviour a bit more...so thanks

[cylon]

My pleasure.