Reframing Rejection & Overcoming Mysogyny

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

rei, if you followed his links, you'd be able to deduce for yourself what he's all about.

(btw, I say that in a literal sense without any implication whatsoever about what he's about...I'm literally saying that if you read a few of his threads, you'll understand pretty clearly what his intentions are, what he believes about women/men and their relationships, etc.)

yes James, i understand and i agree. still out of sheer curiosity i am wondering if the PUA-related language is being used as an 'in' - so far i have not come across any of his posts that would answer that question.

truthfully, i don't comprehend how it is that some men are so mystified with women. yes, sometimes women do unexpected things, but men do as well. predictability is a nice ideal, it ultimately eases a bit of death anxiety, but it's just that - an ideal. if we relate as one human to another, if we actually pay attention to the things a person says, if we're willing to ask what we want to know instead of making assumptions - how can there be a total lack of understanding?

i have learned a lot from this thread. and for the most part, each time someone has expressed a close-minded belief, someone has come in and shared a more enlightening idea. not sure anyone addressed that post about women being a bundle of emotion and hormones though. like any stereotype it has a bit of truth to it, but like any stereotype, it's also a generalized oversimplified position. men have hormones as well, testosterone levels can fluctuate and greatly affect a man's mood. anyhoo, great post Johnny and great opportunity for some discussion among the genders!

i agree with those who have said it isn't being a nice guy alone that women find undesirable. it's the manipulation and utter lack of confidence (and the clinginess that often comes with this bundle of traits) that is unattractive to many people regardless of gender. nice guy with backbone is incredibly sexy to me.

[James81]

Originally Posted by rei

truthfully, i don't comprehend how it is that some men are so mystified with women.

The big thing is that for a woman, it's very easy to tell what a man finds attractive. I mean, it's really no big secret that if you are a physically attractive woman, then a man is going to be attracted to you. There's no garauntee that he'll want a relationship with you, but it's pretty cut and dry what men want in terms of attraction (it's 90% physical, btw...at least in the beginning it is).

Bear in mind, I'm talking about INITIAL attraction here and not anything long term. When it comes to long term, I think women are equally as clueless as men are about what the other wants in a long term relationship.

But it's NOT clear (nor is it cut and dry) what women find attractive. Oh, you get the standard "cute, confident, and funny" answer from most women but that's a pretty broad answer. Each woman has her own unique definition of each of those things, and weighs each of those things very differently.

Whereas one woman might put more weight on physical looks and confidence, another one might not even care about physical looks, but need her guy to be funny. Still another woman might think that confident is someone who is always in your face, and another woman might think that confident is someone who knows how to keep his cool and just be.

And a lot of men have a hard time wrapping their minds around that. They think that because a beautiful woman can captivate the attention of every man in the room, that they, as men, need to figure out how to captivate the attention of every woman in the room (which is so much harder to do for a man than it is a woman).

Now you take a man who doesn't have much experience with women, who spends his time listening and believing what pop culture tries to shove down his throat regarding relationships, and you see why he'd have trouble. A man has seen how a certain type of behavior supposedly makes a woman fall for him in things like TV, movies, etc. So the nicer guys in the bunch think that that's what women want (because, hey, they SAY they want those things!) but what women say they want and what they actually want are two very different things.

Couple that with the advice other women give to men on how to get with women, and you got the guy going nuts trying to figure out what she wants. Because every one of us guys have listened to your (women's) advice about what you want in a guy, we've followed it, and found ourselves squarely in the "friendzone."

All the bad advice that's out there from sources that we (men) logically think should be GOOD sources, have led a lot of us down a very maddening, frustrating road.

So most of us seek out PUA initially (it's how I got my start in personal development) because we are so damned frustrated that what logically SHOULD work...doesn't. And it makes men bitter, so they get into PUA, try it, and realize that it's very affective even though it goes against everything we intially believed.

But I think most men who get into PUA EVENTUALLY start to get what their problem was and they stop with the "tips and tricks" and start getting more authentic. Unfortunately, that's probably after they've broken quite a few hearts in the process, which tends to make women...uneasy with new guys and new relationships and makes women play the game as well.

Perpetual cycle.

I used to wonder why it was that women couldn't just TELL us what they want. And then I realized that it's because most of them don't KNOW what they want, so they just tout what sounds "right" by society's standards.

[brendannz]

Couple that with the advice other women give to men on how to get with women, and you got the guy going nuts trying to figure out what she wants.

I used to wonder why it was that women couldn't just TELL us what they want. And then I realized that it's because most of them don't KNOW what they want, so they just tout what sounds "right" by society's standards.

I think if a guy had to give advice to a girl on what she has to do to get a guy, and what a guy wants in a relationship, he'd be equally clueless.. We don't really know either.

[James81]

Originally Posted by brendannz

I think if a guy had to give advice to a girl on what she has to do to get a guy, and what a guy wants in a relationship, he'd be equally clueless.. We don't really know either.

I wasn't really talking about relationships, though.

I was talking about attraction.

And I can spell out very clearly what I'm attracted to in a woman.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by James81

I was talking about attraction.

Yeah true, attraction is pretty straight forward for all guys really.

Anyway, another topic, obviously it's really foolish of a guy to spend hundreds of dollars on a date with a woman he hardly knows, and buy expensive gifts. (unless he's proposing marriage) But should the male always pay the first date? or should it always be 50/ 50 split?

[James81]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Yeah true, attraction is pretty straight forward for all guys really.

Anyway, another topic, obviously it's really foolish of a guy to spend hundreds of dollars on a date with a woman he hardly knows, and buy expensive gifts. (unless he's proposing marriage) But should the male always pay the first date? or should it always be 50/ 50 split?

This is sort of one my "tests" for women.

I always walk into a date expecting to pay for most of it, and I wait and see if a girl offers to pay. If she offers to pay for something, I "let" her (not that she needs my permission or anything). If she never offers to pay, I sorta see that as a red flag.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by James81

I sorta see that as a red flag.

high maintenance or self centered?

[James81]

Originally Posted by brendannz

high maintenance or self centered?

High maintenance or even a possible "gold digger."

I think everybody is self centered, so that doesn't bother me unless it's really out of whack.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by James81

High maintenance or even a possible "gold digger."

I think everybody is self centered, so that doesn't bother me unless it's really out of whack.

ohh yeah, I bought for first dates for fear of offending, that was probably a stupid fear, but ahh well..

I'd never equate money spent with results achieved.. though, I'd just see it as a polite gesture if it's less than $10..

[James81]

Originally Posted by brendannz

ohh yeah, I bought for first dates for fear of offending, that was probably a stupid fear, but ahh well..

I'd never equate money spent with results achieved.. though, I'd just see it as a polite gesture if it's less than $10..

I'd never bring the subject up on a date.

I'll walk into every date assuming that I am paying and will pay unless she offers.

I'm just saying that if she never offers, I see that as a red flag. It's not about the money (that really doesn't matter). It's more about the values behind it.

I'm looking for a girl who is fairly independent and who is not in it for what I can offer her. And, to me, a girl who never pays is someone who doesn't hold those values.

[cacheborn]

Good post. The analogy drives home the point nicely. I find that your posts are always very clear about what you want to say. That's cool!

[cylon]

As far as PUA goes, it is such a HUGE topic, there are so many different schools of thought, and different values, all falling under the inadequate umbrella of "PUA", that I think as men we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the TERM out of hand. You'll notice, it's a convenient way for women to put men on the defensive. It's not that far a leap in their minds from "So you've studied PUA" to "So, you believe in manipulating and taking advantage of women?". They don't tend to look at the gray areas in-between. So in a thread like this, Johnny talks about basically men learning to be more responsible and more mature when it comes to women, and it goes from that, to a debate on whether there's any value behind PUA. And then you get us guys saying "now look, I'm not PUA supporter" and all of the sudden our opinions and ideas don't get taken seriously, because any discussion these days about masculinity or gender differences is considered PUA talk.

Johnny saw that hot potato and left it right on the kitchen counter where it belonged in this thread.

We have to be careful to not disparage the WORD PUA so quickly if we're not going to be brow-beaten by women, ala Everyone Loves that Raymond fellow. It's one thing to explain to a guy the subtleties of what is considered PUA, because he will instinctively get that there are levels of awareness, levels of authenticity when it comes to being with women, and he knows the difference between training wheels and moral support, and outright deception. Whereas trying to explain it to a woman CAN be a bit futile, and work against you. They really just want you to outright reject PUA in its entirety, and if you do that, soon your whole "men and women are different" arguments will be rejected, too. Then they have the upper hand, and our progress as men gets set back 30+ years.

But, different topic.

[James81]

Originally Posted by cylon

We have to be careful to not disparage the WORD PUA so quickly if we're not going to be brow-beaten by women, ala Everyone Loves that Raymond fellow. It's one thing to explain to a guy the subtleties of what is considered PUA, because he will instinctively get that there are levels of awareness, levels of authenticity when it comes to being with women, and he knows the difference between training wheels and moral support, and outright deception. Whereas trying to explain it to a woman CAN be a bit futile, and work against you. They really just want you to outright reject PUA in its entirety, and if you do that, soon your whole "men and women are different" arguments will be rejected, too. Then they have the upper hand, and our progress as men gets set back 30+ years.

First of all, welcome back. I thought your ban was permanent, so I'm pleasantly surprised to see you here.

Anyway...off to the topic at hand....

I don't think it matters what you call it. Nor do I think it matters what women think of you or the subject. All that matters is that we, as men, find a way out of the "woods" and onto a path that we can live with and grow along.

I don't think there is any harm in dismissing PUA because the label itself doesn't define you. In fact, I think it's better that you don't attach labels to yourself or your actions, but if you go into the PUA world, you see all kinds of labels and acronyms (i.e. PUA, Dhvs, HB, Negs, etc.) and if you're not careful you can get caught up in the theory behind it without changing your outward actions.

And a lot of men get stuck in that rut, take on PUA, take it to the field, and start finding huge success without every taking a good look at the SOURCE of all their issues to begin with. So what happens, then, is that you have a group of overcompensating "nice guys" who are insecure that turn into selfish ******** who are insecure (but know how to get laid). Thus, the label "PUA" doesn't sit right with most women because when they hear that term, they immediately think of that selfish ******* guy who knows how to manipulate women but never got a good snapshot of all the gunk that's inside.

Dismissing PUA and that area of PUA doesn't make much of a difference to the man who starts at the source, who digs deep within himself and starts shoveling out the muck, and having a deep, resonating confidence that spirals outward from him into the world around him. That man doesn't give a crap what you call it. He just knows that he draws on his inner strength to get the things he desires, to build the world he dreams up in his head, and to find the people to bring into that world.

Progress on that front is permanent (or, rather, very hard to shake away), irregardless of the dismisal of a few labels we try to put to the subject.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by rei

still out of sheer curiosity i am wondering if the PUA-related language is being used as an 'in' - so far i have not come across any of his posts that would answer that question.

In that case, Rei, please check out this post - it answers your question deftly
Professor vs Writer/Philosopher -- advice needed

Johnny Soporno
Sexual Revolutionary

[cylon]

Hey James, no my ban was requested by me because I felt I was spending too much time here. In my signature I explained my motivation, but for some reason, my signature never actually showed up under my name. I didn't do anything to get banned, basically. Anyway....

I agree with what you say. Dismiss it to yourself, to other guys all you want. And no, it doesn't matter what women think of it. What matters is when a guy is putting down PUA in front of a woman in order to make it look like he's different than them, or above them. And that's supplicating behavior "I'll bash PUAs, you'll think I'm a good guy, and be attracted to me."

I see a lot of guys doing this. If THEY bash the PUA community, women feel compelled to bash the PUA community, and new guys, who don't know the difference, when they first discover PUA will think "PUA is for mean guys and I'm a nice person so I'll keep doing what I always did." PUA is the first step for a lot of guys to enter the world of being better men. It doesn't help if they keep hearing that very thing has a bad rep, from both men and women. Then where do they turn? They don't know the difference. A lot of solid PUA material might get a guy who just wants girls, but will cleverly teach him the ways of being a good, mature, responsible person. But it was wanting girls, that made him ready to hear those messages.

YOU know the difference between entry-level PUA tactics and being a real man. But younger, or uninformed guys don't. And as long as we participate in giving the concept of PUA a bad rap, THOSE guys will second guess getting involved in personal growth at all because they don't want to be one of those dirty, bad boy PUA guys that girls hate so much. No, they'll be different from those bad boys. They'll be a "nice guy" and do everything she wants and propose to her on the first date. Isn't that what we're hoping guys will start to move away from?

As long as "PUA" is the word people use for men improving their lives, in my opinion, we shouldn't try to destroy it. So, that's my point.

I know exactly what you're talking about when it comes to the process a man goes through in finding himself. I'm not criticizing that at all. I'm not even criticizing leaving behind the concept of PUA completely in your own life.

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by ar81

What's the big deal with rejection?
My first time it took me 9 rejections until I found a girl who said yes.
Ah!! You probably watched crappy Hollywood tales about being successful the first time... I have some news for you. Hollywood is fiction. Hollywood is not even capable to make historical movies accurate and reliable.

What's the big deal with jumping out of an airplane with a parachute?

Rejection isn't a big deal when you think about it academically, but emotionally it can be a very different story - depending on your past experiences. I've had a hard time dealing with being rejected by girls myself. It had nothing to do with the girls, but more to do with early experiences of rejection. Rejection after a date felt more like an outright rejection of me as a person, whatever the real reason was..

I've come a long way since then - my point is just that fear of rejection is a very basic fear that many people have.. and at least for my part, it has nothing to do with movie myths

I totally agree with the original post - if things aren't working, you need to take a long hard look at what you're doing wrong. I'm a recovering "Nice Guy" and there's a lot of crap in some of the PUA-communities and the advice, they dispense. Some of it has been very helpful for me, however.. being more interesting, acting less needy, poking fun at the girl, not buying her anything (dinner, coffee etc) when dating, not confessing to feelings too early and being less available.

Some of it has been a lot less helpful. Like starting to think things like: "Hmm, I'd like to send her a text message saying thanks for a great evening - but that's probably too needy?" after reading just a tad too much into the PUA advice

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

...

Here, we differ on the definition of the word "successful".

What I believe you were suggesting is that many men who can be observed to persuade women to go to bed with them are genuine misogynists?

This is true due to tragic and fundamental crises of both self-esteem and self-respect on both sides, and surely denies any measure of success!

I meant "successful" only in terms studliness, that is, in terms of persuading many women to go to bed with them, not financial, emotional or spiritual success.

But you make a good point anyway. Notches in belts aren't a worthy goal. Speaks of lack of respect of women, among other things. But now we're getting back to the point I already made.

Edit: By the way, I just read a few of your other posts, and I like them a lot. Especially your one about ratings.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

I'm a recovering "Nice Guy" and there's a lot of crap in some of the PUA-communities and the advice, they dispense. Some of it has been very helpful for me, however.. being more interesting, acting less needy, poking fun at the girl, not buying her anything (dinner, coffee etc) when dating, not confessing to feelings too early and being less available.

That was essentially my previous point to James.. there's a large variety of good and bad when it comes to PUA material... to point out that it's all of the bad variety is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by cylon

That was essentially my previous point to James.. there's a large variety of good and bad when it comes to PUA material... to point out that it's all of the bad variety is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Couldn't agree more.

Also, I think a very important thing is being aware what your goal is. I'm using the PUA material I find to be of use to further my own personal development and hopefully get into a long term relationship. I have no interest in just hooking up with various women, so I stay away from things like "negging". That would just attract the wrong kind of woman for something serious.

The problem is probably most with younger guys getting into the PUA world and taking everything as gospel without any form of critical thinking.

[cylon]

Yeah, I think negging gets really misunderstood. Don't EVER criticize a woman's looks, her makeup, what she's wearing, her hair, never never ever. Women spend so much time trying to look angelic it's just a cruel thing to do. I've seen guys do that to a girl and it's never been pretty. It never gets the reaction they expect (at least with girls who some modicum of self-esteem). It's also not that classy to suggest that a girl isn't intelligent... because when it comes to relationships, women are way smarter. They'll see right through you if you're being a fake.

Negging (to me) is really not letting the girl take herself too seriously... it's playful teasing like you would do to your kid sister. But, so many guys treat women like they are some sort of goddess, it can be unique for a man to kind of bring them down a notch, and can be attractive, if you are conveying a personality of "you are an attractive, interesting woman, but it takes a bit more than that to really impress me. So, impress me." But if this isn't done in a spirit of fun, forget it.

[James81]

Originally Posted by cylon

Hey James, no my ban was requested by me because I felt I was spending too much time here. In my signature I explained my motivation, but for some reason, my signature never actually showed up under my name. I didn't do anything to get banned, basically. Anyway....

I agree with what you say. Dismiss it to yourself, to other guys all you want. And no, it doesn't matter what women think of it. What matters is when a guy is putting down PUA in front of a woman in order to make it look like he's different than them, or above them. And that's supplicating behavior "I'll bash PUAs, you'll think I'm a good guy, and be attracted to me."

I see a lot of guys doing this. If THEY bash the PUA community, women feel compelled to bash the PUA community, and new guys, who don't know the difference, when they first discover PUA will think "PUA is for mean guys and I'm a nice person so I'll keep doing what I always did." PUA is the first step for a lot of guys to enter the world of being better men. It doesn't help if they keep hearing that very thing has a bad rep, from both men and women. Then where do they turn? They don't know the difference. A lot of solid PUA material might get a guy who just wants girls, but will cleverly teach him the ways of being a good, mature, responsible person. But it was wanting girls, that made him ready to hear those messages.

YOU know the difference between entry-level PUA tactics and being a real man. But younger, or uninformed guys don't. And as long as we participate in giving the concept of PUA a bad rap, THOSE guys will second guess getting involved in personal growth at all because they don't want to be one of those dirty, bad boy PUA guys that girls hate so much. No, they'll be different from those bad boys. They'll be a "nice guy" and do everything she wants and propose to her on the first date. Isn't that what we're hoping guys will start to move away from?

As long as "PUA" is the word people use for men improving their lives, in my opinion, we shouldn't try to destroy it. So, that's my point.

I know exactly what you're talking about when it comes to the process a man goes through in finding himself. I'm not criticizing that at all. I'm not even criticizing leaving behind the concept of PUA completely in your own life.

Thing is, I'm not keen on using the term "Pick Up Arts" (PUA) as a term to describe male self-improvement. But I think you and I have been down this road before.

[cylon]

Yeah, I'm not either. It has a slimy connotation to it and it really doesn't describe the breadth of material it covers. But I'm afraid it's going to be the only word newbies will know when they are first seeking out knowledge on how to better themselves. Hopefully once they take those first steps, their "inner wisdom" will kick in and will guide them to the good stuff.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

In that case, Rei, please check out this post - it answers your question deftly
Professor vs Writer/Philosopher -- advice needed

Johnny Soporno
Sexual Revolutionary

yep, checked it Johnny. suspicions confirmed (in a good way).

i'll admit this is the first time i've seen men speak of a kind of PUA approach that fosters integrity and conscious living. absolutely fascinating. i dunno how much sense it makes to use PUA as a term for male personal development, but if the results are beneficial then the nonsensical assessment is a moot point.