for committed partners/spouses

[rei]

so, the divorce rate bothers me, and invades that fantasy of happily ever after (which might be a good thing, since the intimacy experts speak about the problems of a fantasy bond and the importance of realizing you're with a real person). but there are still couples, officially married or not, who have something that lasts. or there are those who haven't been together all that long, but they can see things are working well enough to safely think long-term.

i am curious about what you see in your partner or spouse. what are the types of things you have in common? do the differences annoy you or create problems? what would you say is the best advice for realizing when we have found someone worth the ups and downs of a long-term commitment (please don't bring in that whole 'when it happens, you'll know it' platitude - i know that is the case, but i'm interested in something more specific)?

[Angela]

Danger Man and I have been together about five years. What has it working well for us:

We have very similar values.
We have complementary aims in life.
We are both very courteous to one another.
Our lifestyles fit together well ecologically.
We make each other laugh a lot.

[ar81]

Before I got married I did some research and I interviewed old people with long lasting marriages.

There was a 100 year old lady who told me:
-"When resentment gets in between, love dies. You should not let it to get between you". And she told stories about how she and her husband apologized to each other after they had a fight. They understood that things were said under emotional state, that were not meant to be said.
-"There are things that are bigger than you, so you need to gave God in your relationship". She is old and traditional christian. She was not trying to indoctrinate me, but this expression means something to her. I am still trying to understand the meaning of it. I knew that she lost a son, and they faced very tough situations where they "needed God" to find strength.

A man with 35 years of marriage told me:
"The secret for a big smile is to remind each other, every day, that they love each other, as if it was the first day".

I also read a book called "How to stay married" that is a compilation of cases from the Family Service Association of America (FSAA) and it mentions several issues that couples face. But for some reason the advise of those old people seem more appropriate than the advise of certified experts. Certifications do not bring the experience.

My experience tells me that things go right when:
-Both have a compatible life plan.
-Both try to allow personal growth of each other.
-Both try to improve the life of each other.
-Both follow the advise of those elder people.

My parents divorced. They are good people, but had poor communication, and resentment got in the middle. During my teen years I decided to be a rebel, and create my own role model, because their model was useless to me in terms of human interaction (they sucked at communicating).

[Diandra25]

Me and my partner aer together for 3 years and 3 months now:

-we have specific aims together:raise a family together ( this since the begining,was a natural thing for us to think about..)
- we respect each other a lot
- we accept the other one as he/she is,never wanting to change the other ( this is really important)
- we have the same values in life,although we had diferent experiences during our childwood and teen years...i had an easy one and he had traumatic stressfull events.
- we admire each other for who he/she is.
- we know that if we split apart,we will never have the same luck again with someone
- Trust and Loyalty;when others see a happy couple,and are unhappy with their own life,usually they would try to see if we are really that happy;and if so,others can be pretty much envious.So,trust and loyalty are so important for us,cause there wil always be those who will try to make us as unhappy as they are

the diferences:

i guess are the usual between man and woman

he is more rational,more objective and im idealist and spiritual.but we balance things out really...we have a great capacity of having fun together and when we are angry about each other,we cannot stand it to be for much long ( usually 2 or 3 days)....

advice?

well it is true - when you meet her,you will know it hihihihi

but i would say this: usually,the right people meet and often have something separating them ( that is the obstacle that you two must realize and overcome).and most of the times,you will need to put your Ego aside ( in matters of pride,material needings,race,religion....etc..)

one thing:dont ever sacrifice.for the need of the other or something in the relationship. if you FEEL it is a sacrifice....that is cause it is not the best thing to do...it will lead to ressentment.

[Diandra25]

Ar81

that is very very true....i remember reading in the conversations with God about that:if one sacrifices himself in the relationship,sooner or later,the resentfullness will appear,and the relationship will tear apart.

but if we see things as they are,most of the times that is what happenseople sacrifice in order to be in a relationship! and society blames the ones who dont "sacrifice"saying that he or she is selfish for not wanting to do that....

[Sunmaid]

put the other person first, in all ways

and if your spouse is doing the same thing then things work out very well.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Sunmaid

put the other person first, in all ways

That's one I don't agree with -- no surprise there!

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Sunmaid

put the other person first, in all ways

and if your spouse is doing the same thing then things work out very well.

I agree with that, only slightly different.

Put the the other person first without putting yourself second.

if your spause is doing the same, then things will work out very well...

[rei]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I agree with that, only slightly different.

Put the the other person first without putting yourself second.

if your spause is doing the same, then things will work out very well...

yes, i would think the goal is interdependence, not dependence (neediness) or independence (distance).

if you can put the other person first - without sacrificing your own needs OR spinning it as a veiled attempt to receive kudos - then things should work out well.

i am also wondering about perspectives on the divorce rate but that's probably better as its own thread. basically i am wondering if the high divorce rate is due to people looking for greener pastures, settling down too soon, or something else - obviously each situation is unique, but i imagine there's also a pattern in terms of the reasons people split up (and 'irreconcilable differences' is a very very broad term).

[ar81]

I disagree on "put the other person first, in all ways", but that's me.
I prefer "put both first, in all ways".
The concept of sacrifice belongs more to the drama triangle, in my opinion.
Effort does not equal sacrifice.

Marriage should not be a win-lose game.
It should be a win-win game.
It means that if my wife improves, I get some benefit. And if I improve, she gets a benefit.

For example, she needs to do some homework and I assist her, because I am better with the computer. Is it sacrifice? No, it is just an effort to help her in her career.

I do not like to deny myself some sleep (sacrifice) because of her homework, because my job requires attention to details. So I would not sacrifice if she leaves homework for the last day. Losing a job (both lose) because of homework does not worth it.

rei, if you meet someone, one of the things you may need is to discuss the vision of the relationship (life plans), discuss the ways of interaction (based on what the elders said) and also, if you plan to get married, the ways of managing money.

In my case I started allowing her to manage money, thinking that she would worry about "us", but she was a bit irresponsible. She was never taught about how to manage money, and she is a bit compulsive about spending. It almost caused us to divorce.

But we found a proper balance, and of course the way money was handled changed. It seems that she always lived in scarsity, so the emotional need made her to overspend.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by rei

i am also wondering about perspectives on the divorce rate but that's probably better as its own thread. basically i am wondering if the high divorce rate is due to people looking for greener pastures, settling down too soon, or something else - obviously each situation is unique, but i imagine there's also a pattern in terms of the reasons people split up (and 'irreconcilable differences' is a very very broad term).

I think people marry because of the wrong reasons.

Some may think it is sexual paradise, but taking care of job, bills, housekeeping, our pet, etc, takes a lot of time, so indeed sometimes we have less time for us than we had before marrying.

Some people think about marriage as an eternal romantic honey moon, but certainly it is more about responsibilities than a romantic dream. They marry because they feel in love, not because they truly love.

Some people marry because they seek happiness. Bad choice... if they were not happy with their lives before, they will not be happy if married.

Some people (specially girls) want to get out of home and marry. They better should move to an apartment to live alone, or with some mate to share the bill, but not married.

Some get married because of pregnancy after having sex. If you have sex, pregnancy is a possibility. You better discuss life plans and vision of relationship first. Having a kid complicates a future relationship with someone who is not the biological parent. Among the problems, you may find: discrimination of kids who were born in a previous relationship, problems of 3 people trying to adapt to each other, lack of privacy at the beginning of relationship, etc.

Some others communicate poorly and divorce. It causes resentment and then hate and a sensation of failure.

In my case I depleted the experience of being single, just like my wife.

There are many cases of divorce. The worst are when resentment is in the middle, because they almost try to kill each other emotionally speaking. There are some other situations where it happens because of some peaceful agreement, where they discover life plans were not compatible.

I believe people should not marry before the age of 30, specially men. There is a certain degree in maturity in terms of human interaction. Younger people is less able to have empathy, and they do not understand each other or even themselves. There are exceptions, of course, but they are rare.

I do not have kids, and it is better not to have them in the first years of marriage. Lack of privacy and excess of responsibility could kill a relationship.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by rei

i am also wondering about perspectives on the divorce rate but that's probably better as its own thread. basically i am wondering if the high divorce rate is due to people looking for greener pastures, settling down too soon, or something else.

I've been with my partner for 23 years - and it's pretty much on it's last legs right now. Why? Probably because people grow and people change. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Yes I married very young - but things worked for a long time. Things have only gone bad the last year or so. So I don't see a happy 22 year marriage that ends as a failure - but most people do for some reason.
Sometimes it's just time to move on - that doesn't necessarily mean that it was a mistake to begin with. I don't think that a relationship has to last a lifetime in order to be considered successful.

[rei]

Originally Posted by gigij

I've been with my partner for 23 years - and it's pretty much on it's last legs right now. Why? Probably because people grow and people change. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Yes I married very young - but things worked for a long time. Things have only gone bad the last year or so. So I don't see a happy 22 year marriage that ends as a failure - but most people do for some reason.
Sometimes it's just time to move on - that doesn't necessarily mean that it was a mistake to begin with. I don't think that a relationship has to last a lifetime in order to be considered successful.

you make a good point gigij. i don't think humans are really wired for a lifelong commitment unless both partners are committed to growing and changing and, well, making it work. marriage made sense when the life expectancy was 30-40 years. now i am just not sure it makes sense. do i sound cynical or realistic?

[ar81]

Originally Posted by gigij

Sometimes it's just time to move on - that doesn't necessarily mean that it was a mistake to begin with. I don't think that a relationship has to last a lifetime in order to be considered successful.

Problem of compatibility of life plans?

[gigij]

I would say that's realistic. I think it's unrealistic to expect people to commit to a 'lifetime' in their early 20's. (rei's comment)
Perhaps someone will say I shouldn't have done that then (I've heard that one) but really - who knows what they want out of life at that age?

[gigij]

Originally Posted by ar81

Problem of compatibility of life plans?

Well - as I said I don't see it as a problem - just another step in life. Unfortunately he does - and is hanging on for dear life. Not fun.

[James81]

Hmmm, to me, I wouldn't consider any relationship under 10 years to be a good litmus of a relationship that works well on the long term. (key words are "long term" there just in case you missed that part)

Even the crappiest relationships I know of can make it 5-6 years (heck I was with my ex-wife for 6 years, married for four of those).

That being said, I do not feel qualified to offer advice on what makes a relationship last on the long term, but I do feel VERY qualified to list things that can make one fail (which I think might be more useful):

1. Lies and deceit. If you are hiding something from your partner, ask yourself why that is. Even the smallest lies can rip your relationship apart at the seams (and yes, I'm speaking from experience there).

2. Manipulation. Using sex as a manipulative tool is the top one I can think of. Another biggie is using your emotions to manipulate your partner (i.e. woe is me, I'm crying and want you to tend to me)

3. Incompatibility. I'm becoming more and more convinced that great relationships are all about FINDING the right person, not BEING the right person. If you are continually trying to do things just to please your partner, you will not be happy.

4. Throwing your lives into one big basket. Losing your individuality in a relationship. Becoming "one person" instead of two happy individuals who want to share their happiness with each other.

Those are the biggest ones I can think of off the top of my head, and all those things existed in my relationship with my ex.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Hmmm, to me, I wouldn't consider any relationship under 10 years to be a good litmus of a relationship that works well on the long term. (key words are "long term" there just in case you missed that part)...

In case you missed this part:

or there are those who haven't been together all that long, but they can see things are working well enough to safely think long-term.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

In case you missed this part:

Oh, I saw that part.

I'm just saying that the principles in which a long term relationship is founded on and the principles in which a "I think this is gonna last forever" relationship is founded on, are oft times two different things.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Oh, I saw that part.

I'm just saying that the principles in which a long term relationship is founded on and the principles in which a "I think this is gonna last forever" relationship is founded on, are oft times two different things.

Ok. To me, if you're in a relationship that lasts four seasons, and you both (all?) consider that you'll continue indefinitely with a glad heart, that's long term, as in a Loving, Long-Term, Mutually Beneficial Relationship.

And if you remain in a relationship after four seasons of crappy, wishing and hoping that things will get better, then it's not your relationship principles that need addressing, it's your own internal gunk.

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

Hmmm, to me, I wouldn't consider any relationship under 10 years to be a good litmus of a relationship that works well on the long term. (key words are "long term" there just in case you missed that part)

Even the crappiest relationships I know of can make it 5-6 years (heck I was with my ex-wife for 6 years, married for four of those).

That being said, I do not feel qualified to offer advice on what makes a relationship last on the long term, but I do feel VERY qualified to list things that can make one fail (which I think might be more useful):

1. Lies and deceit. If you are hiding something from your partner, ask yourself why that is. Even the smallest lies can rip your relationship apart at the seams (and yes, I'm speaking from experience there).

2. Manipulation. Using sex as a manipulative tool is the top one I can think of. Another biggie is using your emotions to manipulate your partner (i.e. woe is me, I'm crying and want you to tend to me)

3. Incompatibility. I'm becoming more and more convinced that great relationships are all about FINDING the right person, not BEING the right person. If you are continually trying to do things just to please your partner, you will not be happy.

4. Throwing your lives into one big basket. Losing your individuality in a relationship. Becoming "one person" instead of two happy individuals who want to share their happiness with each other.

Those are the biggest ones I can think of off the top of my head, and all those things existed in my relationship with my ex.

James81, i understand if you are bitter about your former relationship, but really, if i wanted to ask others what will mess up a relationship, that's what i would've asked.

i noticed, in your list of four things, it seems the first two are about your ex and the last two are about the partnership. it takes two people to make or break a relationship, so i am wondering if you've accepted responsibility for the things you did to either hold on to a sour relationship or help make it sour. blaming others can be exactly what we need in the immediate aftermath of a crisis (so our defenses are not overwhelmed, although sometimes *that* is exactly what we need... a breakdown to allow space for reassessment) but i wonder if enough time has passed for you to work through the ways you were responsible there. the bitterness is understandable as i said, but it seems like it's holding you back and you're allowing a piece of your emotional energy to continually return to a point in your past. forgiveness is for you, not her.

so i appreciate the time and effort you took to post this, but it's not really what i was asking for and i have enough, er, reluctance about intimate partnerships as it is, since i have learned through my own relational experience about those things you listed

[James81]

Originally Posted by rei

James81, i understand if you are bitter about your former relationship, but really, if i wanted to ask others what will mess up a relationship, that's what i would've asked.

i noticed, in your list of four things, it seems the first two are about your ex and the last two are about the partnership. it takes two people to make or break a relationship, so i am wondering if you've accepted responsibility for the things you did to either hold on to a sour relationship or help make it sour. blaming others can be exactly what we need in the immediate aftermath of a crisis (so our defenses are not overwhelmed, although sometimes *that* is exactly what we need... a breakdown to allow space for reassessment) but i wonder if enough time has passed for you to work through the ways you were responsible there. the bitterness is understandable as i said, but it seems like it's holding you back and you're allowing a piece of your emotional energy to continually return to a point in your past. forgiveness is for you, not her.

so i appreciate the time and effort you took to post this, but it's not really what i was asking for and i have enough, er, reluctance about intimate partnerships as it is, since i have learned through my own relational experience about those things you listed

I'm not bitter about my relationship anymore. Took a long time to get past that, but I'm pretty confident that I'm past all that.

Oh, and just to be clear, that list of four things are all things that *I* did. Sure, she's guilty of them too, but I was the bigger offender in those cases. (Just so you know )

And hey, it's a message board. You should appreciate whatever time people take to offer you their thoughts. It's not enough to know what to do. You also need to know what DOESN'T work either.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by James81

3. Incompatibility. I'm becoming more and more convinced that great relationships are all about FINDING the right person, not BEING the right person. If you are continually trying to do things just to please your partner, you will not be happy.

I disagree, but that's me. People attract people who are similar. I was not the "right person" I wanted for me and I found people who were similar, not the right one. I figured out the characteristics of the right person for me, and I then asked if I was like that right person. I found a gap and when I closed the gap I met my wife, and this relationship has been radically different than my previous ones. Far better.

However I do agree about the elements that you mention that could lead to divorce. Those were mentioned in the book "How to stay married" that had a compilation of cases of FSAA. Some cases were really shocking in terms of how terrible they were.

I think your post is very valuable.

My views on those issues and how I handle them.

1.Lies and deceit. Compare facts and words. Believe in facts. Liars lie to themselves. Those who say the truth do not need a good meory.

2. Manipulation. That's poor communication. If someone wants something it is just a matter of asking. If it is about power, relationships are a bad place to play such games. If I wanted to play games of power I would play this: DEFCON - Introversion software (a game about global thermonuclear war)

3. Incompatibility. I have found that there is no thing like "incompatibility" just "different views of reality", what I would call a cultural shock between two families. Families have certain culture and if cultures are too different and there is no tolerace, cultural shocks may occur.

4. Throwing your lives into one big basket. This is why agreeing about life plans is important. If your life plan is not being enriched by the relationship, the relationship is likely to die. The concept of "us" is about helping each other to grow. I negotiated my life plan with my wife when I was her boyfriend, and she negotiated hers and we gave it a go.

[rei]

Originally Posted by James81

I'm not bitter about my relationship anymore. Took a long time to get past that, but I'm pretty confident that I'm past all that.

Oh, and just to be clear, that list of four things are all things that *I* did. Sure, she's guilty of them too, but I was the bigger offender in those cases. (Just so you know )

And hey, it's a message board. You should appreciate whatever time people take to offer you their thoughts. It's not enough to know what to do. You also need to know what DOESN'T work either.

ok glad you offered clarification and yes i obviously made an assumption. when you speak of using sex and crying as a form of manipulation, that feels traditionally to be the purview of the female - although, as a female i'm not big on making myself cry to get my way so again, obviously that was partly the product of assumption.

yes knowing what doesn't work is also helpful... but i think i have much of that covered from my own experience, which is why that wasn't my focus - but of course if people want to take time to reply, i do appreciate that. now that i am in a place where i am happy with me and with single life (often a sign that we're ready for a stint at the non-single stuff if/when it comes along), i figure i can bear in mind the things i've learned about the less healthy way to relate, and ask those who have a rewarding partnership for their understanding of how they make it work.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by rei

when you speak of using sex and crying as a form of manipulation, that feels traditionally to be ...

Manipulation has no gender. I did not make that assumption.

[rei]

Originally Posted by ar81

Manipulation has no gender. I did not make that assumption.

that's nice for you ar81.
i don't think i am the only person who would have read it that way. of course manipulation has no gender, but many of the women i know have used sex and/or tears to get their way. whether that's right or wrong is not the point.
and at least i have the courage to admit i made an assumption on a forum for personal growth

[James81]

Originally Posted by rei

that's nice for you ar81.
i don't think i am the only person who would have read it that way. of course manipulation has no gender, but many of the women i know have used sex and/or tears to get their way. whether that's right or wrong is not the point.
and at least i have the courage to admit i made an assumption on a forum for personal growth

Heh, don't sweat it. You're not the first person to assume that, nor will you be the last, so it's all good.

On a different vein, though, I could probably offer the opposits of everything I posted in that post and they would make for a list of things you SHOULD do.

1. Honesty
2. Cooperation
3. Compatibility
4. Sharing your individuality

But I don't have the experience of a successful relationship to back that up.

[Mogget]

Originally Posted by rei

i am curious about what you see in your partner or spouse. what are the types of things you have in common? do the differences annoy you or create problems? what would you say is the best advice for realizing when we have found someone worth the ups and downs of a long-term commitment (please don't bring in that whole 'when it happens, you'll know it' platitude - i know that is the case, but i'm interested in something more specific)?

We have most if not all of our core values in common, and many beliefs. Even where our beliefs differ it is not such a big deal because our values are so in alignment. We enjoy spending our time the same ways, we express affection in the same ways - we are astonishingly similar even in very obscure things. This makes it very very easy and pleasant to spend time together.

We want our lives to go in the same general direction.

We show each other a lot of courtesy and respect, never name call, roll eyes or act contemptuously. When have a serious disagreement or spat after a cooling off period we discuss how it occurred and how to avoid such problems in the future.

We don't change the rules on each other. We take care of each other every way we can, which means always being mindful of how our decisions and actions impact the other.

We have enough differences to keep things interesting and to make the other person seem unique and special (or maybe barking mad).

To me the most important things are aligned values/aligned understanding of each persons role in the relationship and a compatible end direction.

How do you know someone is worth it? You don't. All important decisions are made with insufficient information. A long term commitment of any type is a leap of faith and the faith is in your ability to adapt to changing circumstances, not in the changelessness of the arrangement.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Mogget

All important decisions are made with insufficient information.

very nice. profound and a lil scary but so true!