Why are some people manipulative?

[brendannz]

OK, lets discuss manipulative people.

I think some reasons some people might be manipulative, is that

1/ they feel deep down that they're not content as they are, so they want to manipulate others to be more according to their design, to fulfill their own void..

or

2/ they become convinced that the other person is not OK or content as they are, and don't like something about them, so want to manipulate them because they think they're doing a good deed.

Do people want to manipulate others because they are not able to accept them as they are? and is is wrong or evil to manipulate others?

[Michelle]

In my experience most manipulation is done unconconsciously. Very few people are consciously and willingly malicious. People who manipulate believe on some level that they cannot get or keep what they want or need through conventional means (such as simply asking for it or working for it).

[brendannz]

Michelle,

that's what I was getting at, thanks for response

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by brendannz

and is is wrong or evil to manipulate others?

For me manipulation has a negative connotation. Influencing is the neutral / positive variant.

Manipulation means trying to get somebody to do / be something they don't truly want. A win/lose situation.

Influencing is trying to get somebody to do / be something that they want but are not (yet) aware of and give you what you want too. A win/win.

In that sense manipulation is wrong though it can be sucessful in the short term.

I don't agree that most manipulation is done unconsciously. Challenge people whom you feel are manipulating you and observe their reactions. Usually they were aware of what they were doing (but maybe were in self denial). Seldom they are sincerely surprised that they were manipulating.

[aggie]

it is funny you should ask this question .

last night "the bully" came on tv...based on book of a real life account.

i had seen it and my husband just expected some big guy physically beating up on other littler guys.

the bully in the movie was a master manipulator on many levels for many reasons, all of the above mentioned.

mostly because of his hatred of himself and his insecurity about who he was.
he had a manipulating father that he hated and was, it appeared, to be latent homosexual.

oddly enough those who followed him, served him, thought he was someone they needed in lives to feel important or special also.

so he visciously manipulating them all until they could no longer stand it and murdered him.

really creepy when you realize it really happened.

[brendannz]

spirit4711;

I'd agree there are conscious manipulators, but I think that people will choose to be manipulative because they can't be happy with themselves unless they're manipulating to get what they want..

I once worked at a petrol station, when I was about 22, (5 years ago) and I had longish hair and there was this insane girl about 30, who I was working with, and really didn't know how to shut up, at all, and she was nagging to me that I need a haircut and she was a hairdresser and could cut my hair. I just told her I had a hairdresser already, and then she asked me about 50 times "why don't you want to get your haircut?" and I just ignored her until she stopped.

That's pretty manipulative, wanting to change someones hairstyle, but I think she just wanted the acceptance

[Angela]

Originally Posted by brendannz

...I think that people will choose to be manipulative because they can't be happy with themselves unless they're manipulating to get what they want..

... I just ignored her until she stopped.

[Diandra25]

yup

i think that iis quite easy to pick manipulative people...and to me it is not an uncouscious process....only if it happened once of twice from that specific person.

but...most of the times i see that people do it almost everyday.(the ones that i consider manipulative)...

they do it cause:

-it is their Ego that wants to be in control,and control all people around.they need to feel they are right,and everyone else is wrong...

-it is also a matter of insecurity and self esteem i think.they try to hide it under the manipulative behaviour cause someone who accepts themselves as they are,dont really need to make others do or think as they want us too...

manipulative people are also frequently very selfish and narcisist too...and quite intelligent too....

the best way to deal with them is ignore their comments.ignore their Ego and focus on you.on what makes you happy.

that+s it.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by brendannz

...That's pretty manipulative, wanting to change someones hairstyle, but I think she just wanted the acceptance

Maybe it was an ineffective way to get you to date her?

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Maybe it was an ineffective way to get you to date her?

lol.. she was in a gay relationship.. but was still possible I guess.. She might have wanted to chop my neck off for all I know

she was a real nightmare workmate, I was really freaking out at the time, but when I realised that she didn't really mean any harm, I relaxed a bit..

Yeah, I've got a pretty nice and maybe naive nature, so I have to watch out for manipulative people, but I don't think I've really had to deal with any for about a year.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Diandra25

manipulative people are also frequently very selfish and narcisist too...and quite intelligent too....

the best way to deal with them is ignore their comments.ignore their Ego and focus on you.on what makes you happy.

I've found that the most manipulative people I've had to deal with have been the least intelligent, from my own experience. Not saying you're wrong, but that's the way it seems to me.

I think the problem with them is when you don't really know their intentions, so then it becomes hard to ignore their comments and egos.. But you've got to be really careful not to let them control you, but also realise that they are being manipulative because of their own insecurities.

Yeah consciously I've never been a manipulative person, but unconsciously I may have been, before in the past, nobody's perfect.

[aggie]

at one point in my life i learned the game of "emotional blackmail"....VERY manipulative....i got it, and became very good at giving it.

as time went on....and i looked back, i was disgusted with that behavior and i can honestly say, i don't fall prey to it or dish it out anymore.

[ar81]

Manipulation is a matter of power.
Some people are motivated by power, some others by achievement and some others by congeniality. Those motivations are present in different degrees in every person.

The problem of being manipulative is that people do not like to be manipulated and at some point everyone realizes about manipulation.

Normally manipulation is about engaging in emotional games.
One common game is drama triangle
The Drama Triangle: Persecutor, Victim and and Rescuer

[Angela]

ar81 is right.... Personally, I think it makes a lot more sense to get really skillful at being flexible, rather than resisting being manipulated or avoiding or ignoring manipulators.

When you create yourself in such a way that being manipulated is not a problem for you, you have all kinds of personal power and influence. As you become more personally powerful, you may even enjoy engaging with people who manipulate, just for the game of turning someone's win/lose into a win/win. That's real transformation, and it's fun!

[ar81]

I do not resist manipulation because resisting involves playing the game. I just do not play the game. When someone blackmails me I tell that person he/she is blackmailing me. Manipulators hate to be exposed.

I prefer straightforward relations, where sincerity and not manipulation plays a major role.

[aggie]

that is what i learned to do eventually. just call someone on it. i told them not to play the game with me, because i could play it too well, and i did not want to go there anymore.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ar81

I do not resist manipulation because resisting involves playing the game. I just do not play the game. When someone blackmails me I tell that person he/she is blackmailing me. Manipulators hate to be exposed.

I prefer straightforward relations, where sincerity and not manipulation plays a major role.

In case you misunderstood me, that's what I was saying with "ar81 is right" ... I noticed that you were pointing out the drama triangle, and recognizing and interrupting is the key.

Of course, calling someone on their manipulation is not the only way to interrupt it; there are ways of transforming it more subtly, too.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Angela

ar81 is right.... Personally, I think it makes a lot more sense to get really skillful at being flexible, rather than resisting being manipulated or avoiding or ignoring manipulators.

Yep, when that woman wanted to chop my hair off, I just ignored her becasue I didn't know how to deal with her, I was a lot younger and a bit scared... but now I've got more experience dealing with others and I'm much less vulnerable to that manipulation.

I think she was much more confused than manipulative, though..

[blossom]

Maybe she just thought you needed a haircut, and offered to do it. Girls like to play with hair.

I offered a male friend to shave his head, as I noticed it was getting a bit shaggy, and IMO it looked good shaved, so I offered, and he reacted the same way that you mentioned, and thought I was trying to control him. I didn't say "you MUST let me shave your head now" whilst hypnotizing him with a chicken...I just said that I would shave his head if he wanted it shaved. I wasn't there, so I don't know how she approached it with you...maybe she was just bored...working can do that

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by blossom

Maybe she just thought you needed a haircut, and offered to do it. Girls like to play with hair.

I offered a male friend to shave his head, as I noticed it was getting a bit shaggy, and IMO it looked good shaved, so I offered, and he reacted the same way that you mentioned, and thought I was trying to control him. I didn't say "you MUST let me shave your head now" whilst hypnotizing him with a chicken...I just said that I would shave his head if he wanted it shaved. I wasn't there, so I don't know how she approached it with you...maybe she was just bored...working can do that

yeah saying "I think you'd like good with shaved hair, I have razors if you want me to shave it" is a bit different to saying "you need a haircut, I'm a hairdresser"

I think she just wanted to prove that she was worth more than a 30 year old working at a petrol station. Or maybe she thought if I'd say "really? please give me a haircut" then she could really control me more and more..

That girl was a disaster really..

one time she said "Brreeennnddan I've got a sore stomach"
so I said "OK"
so she said "awwwwwwwww... Brennndan"
so I said "well you can go talk a doctor about that!"
and she said "Noooo, I'm on my period!!!"

If I ever become an employer, I'm never going to employ someone like that.. But luckily she's a thing of the past

[spirit4711]

Brendan, I still think she fancied you - or liked pulling your leg .

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Brendan, I still think she fancied you - or liked pulling your leg .

lol, she was a lesbian though, but you never know really..

I remember I thought she was joking when she was going on about my hair, but then the next day I went to work she said "aww, Brendan, what have you done to your hair?!?! I can give you a haircut if you want, I'm a hairdresser" OMG she must've been serious..

It's funny looking back though

[Coffeesmurf]

Originally Posted by brendannz

I've found that the most manipulative people I've had to deal with have been the least intelligent, from my own experience. Not saying you're wrong, but that's the way it seems to me.

I don't think intelligence is directly linked to being more or less manipulative, although a certain level of intelligence is obviously required to be able to manipulate people in the first place I think it's just that attempts at manipulation done by less intelligent people are easier to spot. I used to be very (covertly) manipulative, because I didn't think I could get what I wanted by being direct and asking for it. I'm happy that I'm now mostly able to just directly go for what I want. Earlier, I was often amazed - and a little frightened - at how easy it was for me to manipulate people without their knowledge.

It's not something I'm proud of, but it was pretty much a coping mechanism for me - and a part of my "Nice Guy" syndrome. Not voicing my needs either to refrain from possibly hurting people or to avoid rejection.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

I don't think intelligence is directly linked to being more or less manipulative, although a certain level of intelligence is obviously required to be able to manipulate people in the first place I think it's just that attempts at manipulation done by less intelligent people are easier to spot. I used to be very (covertly) manipulative, because I didn't think I could get what I wanted by being direct and asking for it. I'm happy that I'm now mostly

Maybe smart people are manipulating me without me realising it and stupid people don't get away with it

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Angela

In case you misunderstood me, that's what I was saying with "ar81 is right" ... I noticed that you were pointing out the drama triangle, and recognizing and interrupting is the key.

Of course, calling someone on their manipulation is not the only way to interrupt it; there are ways of transforming it more subtly, too.

Hehe, I think we had a problem of communication. Thing is clarified now. I have had bad experiences with manipulative people. Manipulation often includes lies.

[Coffeesmurf]

Actually, I think my definition of manipulation in my last post is pretty different from the one in the original post, when I think about it. I didn't manipulate people to change them, but to change the outcome of situations, avoid events I didn't want to happen etc.

The way I see it, everybody influences people in one way or another - it doesn't have to be in a negative way. Whether you call it manipulation or something else is a matter of definition. The way I used to do it was rarely something that was detrimental to other people, although the direct way would have been more straightforward. In fact, this sounds a bit like manipulation:

calling someone on their manipulation is not the only way to interrupt it; there are ways of transforming it more subtly, too.

[Michael Chui]

There are no manipulators; only people being manipulated.

[blossom]

That makes no sense whatsoever! If people allow themselves to be manipulated then they have fallen for the lies a person has told them to manipulate them...therefore the person manipulating them is a 'manipulative person'!

Also, Brendannz...you are a funny funny man. The way you described how that girl talked to you...I could almost see her and hear her

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by blossom

That makes no sense whatsoever! If people allow themselves to be manipulated then they have fallen for the lies a person has told them to manipulate them...therefore the person manipulating them is a 'manipulative person'!

Also, Brendannz...you are a funny funny man. The way you described how that girl talked to you...I could almost see her and hear her

I think what that person is saying is that noone can make you inferior (or manipulated) without your permission

and thanks! life really sucks if you can't laugh at your experiences..

[Jaiysun4]

Highly Machiavellian personalities (or High-Machs) advocate lying as a preferred policy because they deem it "necessary in an imperfect world."

They are unconcerned with morality and can concentrate on winning the game by whatever means are most effective. They put their own ambitions before loyalty or friendship.

It is a short term-strategy - to get as much out of people before they realise what is happening. Therefore psychologists speculate that manipulators develop from unstable families, or where there has been an early major disappointment or romantic heartbreak.

For example, a childhood with no long-term relationships means manipulators never learn the benefits of long-term investment in relationships. Manipulators feel it is legtimate to do so, because everyone else is scheming aswell, so they have a lack of basic faith in human nature, which must be based in a lack of supportive relationships in childhood/early childhood.