Why are some people manipulative?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by marinik

What high horse did you just get of???

Um, Sleipnir?

It was a joke. That metaphor has been in use for at least a hundred years. I still think it's boringly two-dimensional, but who cares what I think?

[PaulW1956]

Originally Posted by blossom

I still don't quite see how there are no manipulators. Wouldn't it be more true to say that there are manipulators AND the manipulated? Sure, not everyone knows when they are doing it, but there are alot of people who DO know that they are doing it, and it works for them so they keep doing it. If someone is delivering the manipulation, then aren't they then a Manipulator or manipulative person?

I was using people who lie as a way of manipulating as an example. It isn't always the case that everyone who manipulates is lying, they could be telling the truth in a way to get someone to do or think a certain way...there are all different forms of manipulation, and I agree that it is happening all the time. It is up to the individual to recognise that it's happening and choose whether they will be swayed by it or not!

You're exactly right Blossom it doesn't follow to say there are no manipulators.

To have a result or an outcome in anything you need an action to create it. The action being of course a verb, in this case it is manipulating.

Manipulation or the act of manipulating is an action involving two or more people, so you have the person or persons doing the manipulation, the manipulator(s) and the person or persons receiving the manipulation, the manipulated.

Regards

Paul

[marinik]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Um, Sleipnir?

It was a joke. That metaphor has been in use for at least a hundred years. I still think it's boringly two-dimensional, but who cares what I think?

I knew you would need 8 legs to support you!!!

Not everybody lives in your sting of reality. So 2 dimensions can be enough for them. Never judge!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by marinik

Never judge!

This comes from a person who accused me of being on a high horse?

[marinik]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

This comes from a person who accused me of being on a high horse?

Did you see the simile????

[Michael Chui]

No. I didn't see the word "like" or "as" in your post.

[blossom]

Thanks Paul...I wasn't sure who was making sense and who was talking **** there for a moment. If michael wants to manipulate people into thinking a different way he might want to add the words, "think about this" rather than just make a sweeping statement! And I'll be sure to take my own advice in future as well.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by blossom

Thanks Paul...I wasn't sure who was making sense and who was talking **** there for a moment. If michael wants to manipulate people into thinking a different way he might want to add the words, "think about this" rather than just make a sweeping statement! And I'll be sure to take my own advice in future as well.

And if you want to manipulate me into feeling compelled to preface my paradoxes with a commandment, you'll have to try a bit harder.

[blossom]

I'm not trying to manipulate you into doing anything...I merely SUGGESTED that if you want people to interpret your post accurately you may want to be a bit more direct about it rather than making sweeping statements that make no sense and expecting everyone to just get it! You could take it as feedback, OR, get shirty...which it sounds like you have opted for the latter in this case!

Misunderstandings on the web are rife as it is...it helps to be as clear as possible with the use of language to prevent such misunderstandings from happening! I'm sure we can all agree with that one.

It doesn't have to be a command, which probably wouldn't warm you to many people anyway, but it would be helpful if you maybe added some sort of sentence that could lead us into understanding that you are trying to get us to consider your idea?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by blossom

I'm not trying to manipulate you into doing anything...I merely SUGGESTED that if you want people to interpret your post accurately you may want to be a bit more direct about it rather than making sweeping statements that make no sense and expecting everyone to just get it! You could take it as feedback, OR, get shirty...which it sounds like you have opted for the latter in this case!

Misunderstandings on the web are rife as it is...it helps to be as clear as possible with the use of language to prevent such misunderstandings from happening! I'm sure we can all agree with that one.

It doesn't have to be a command, which probably wouldn't warm you to many people anyway, but it would be helpful if you maybe added some sort of sentence that could lead us into understanding that you are trying to get us to consider your idea?

blossom,

None of my posts thus far have failed in their objectives. Each word I wrote got the reaction I was hoping for, or something close enough that it matches roughly what I wanted. "My idea" was discussed about as adequately as I expected it to be, and I didn't need anything more than what I wrote to generate the discussion that already happened above.

So while I understand that you're trying to be helpful, I really don't see what it is you think I need help with.

Though I do admit I have failed to explain to you what manipulation is, I didn't come in here expecting everyone to walk away enlightened by my holy supernal presence. That would be silly, especially since I'm working with written language, which is never truthful and never sufficient. Yes, my words were untruthful. That's what a paradox is. It's a misdirection. It's a lie. It's wrong. The only way to respond to it is to misunderstand: the only way to make sense of it is to not understand it. That's another paradox.

You seem to want to help me do something I'm not trying to do. I would strongly recommend Stephen R. Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People", Habit 5: Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. You seem to be trying to get me to understand you, without having an understanding of where I'm coming from or what I'm trying to do. This isn't very helpful to me.

I appreciate the effort, but it's not having the effect I think you're aiming for.

[PerDev]

There can be various reason of it
But i think major reason is insecurity

Originally Posted by brendannz

OK, lets discuss manipulative people.

I think some reasons some people might be manipulative, is that

1/ they feel deep down that they're not content as they are, so they want to manipulate others to be more according to their design, to fulfill their own void..

or

2/ they become convinced that the other person is not OK or content as they are, and don't like something about them, so want to manipulate them because they think they're doing a good deed.

Do people want to manipulate others because they are not able to accept them as they are? and is is wrong or evil to manipulate others?

[blossom]

I'm not trying to get you to understand me...I'm trying to understand where YOU are coming from, which is why I suggested that perhaps you might want to spell it out a bit clearer for those of us who don't get that you are putting ideas out there, instead of making statements of absolute truth, which you seemed to be in your previous post.

Other people did get it...I didn't...so I was trying to get what you were saying, but I guess I'm needing a bit more help with it. If someone uses the words that you used ..."There are no manipulators, only people who are manipulated" that, to me sounds like a statement of fact...which I then questioned because it made no sense to me.
In order for there to be people who are manipulated, it stands to reason that there are people doing the manipulating...since you can't have one without the other. This appears to be not where you were going with the statement...but it seemed that way when I read it...which is why I asked if you could maybe give more indication next time as to your intentions behind making a statement like that? Not too much to ask I don't think.

Also, I'm fairly certain I know what manipulation is and I don't need it to be explained to me. I'm sure if you examine your words from that original statement, you may be able to see why they were misunderstood...maybe not? In any case, you certainly don't HAVE to do anything you don'[t want to do, I just thought it might be easier to understand what you are trying to put across if you worded it better...but that's just my oppinion. I didn't ask for any book references either, although I have looked at the book you mentioned.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by blossom

I'm not trying to get you to understand me...I'm trying to understand where YOU are coming from, which is why I suggested

Word of advice: Never try to understand someone by telling them what to do.

[blossom]

I think if you check over what I actually posted, the words I used were not of an authoritative nature...I SUGGESTED that it would help me to understand better IF you would add words that made it seem less of a statement and more of an invitation to think about an ïdea" you were putting out there...I didn't TELL you to! Perhaps you misinterpreted my words? I'm sorry if it seemed that way, it was not my intent.

In any case, I'm pretty over this discussion to be honest. I still don't understand what "idea" you were trying to put across...and I've lost all interest in trying to. It sounds like you got the responses you were looking for from others here...so I can live without knowing what you were trying to convey!

[Michael Chui]

Want trivia? Every single one of my responses to you has been an attempt to explain what I said in my first post. Now, I made a mistake and didn't construct those explanations specifically for your benefit; that was my blindness, and I apologize for my lapse. So, to make up for those previous mistakes, this post is tailored specifically for you. If you don't read this, it's no loss to me. I am not asking for a response.

This post is an explanation of what I said in my first post. It does not repeat all the ideas previously stated, just some of them.

I am addressing previous points of contention in reverse order.

---

Point 1: Being Understood versus Understanding.

Originally Posted by blossom

I SUGGESTED

Yes. You still don't understand what manipulation is or how it works. You've been so busy trying to be understood--trying to get me to understand what you meant, trying to get me to take your suggestion or at least recognize that it is a suggestion--that you haven't spent any effort in actually understanding what I said.

You understood two things from what I wrote: (1) that it wasn't true and (2) that I was seeking a specific reaction. But you've dismissed everything else in an effort to be understood. You complain that you still don't understand what I was getting at, but you haven't actually made an effort to communicate with me honestly about what you want to know.

So really, my only option is to review what I've said and to repeat it more clearly. I'd love to mix in metaphors and anecdotes, but I don't know you personally well enough to choose ones that explain this accurately. So you'll have to make do with this inadequate post.

---

Point 2: Every human interaction is a manipulation.

Manipulation is a synonym for "handling". You manipulate the steering wheel, the pedals, and the gear shift in order to drive a car. You manipulate the environment by preserving forests, digging oil wells, et. al. You manipulate a human being by creating circumstances and having interactions with them.

Even absence is a manipulation. Once you exist in someone's mind, you are affecting and influencing them whether you like it or not. To stop, you must cause them to forget you first, and then you are left with the irrevocable fact that you are a part of their history and thus color their future decisions. But at least your manipulation is passive.

This isn't a choice. The choice is in how deliberate it is. If you jack them into the Matrix and you control the Matrix, then that's pretty deliberate. If you were distracted by a pretty bird while walking along the sidewalk and run into someone else, then that's pretty unintentional. But they're both manipulations.

---

Point 3: All human beings are manipulators.

Happy now? I said it. You are a manipulator. I am a manipulator. We're all manipulators. There. No paradox. No intentionally contradictory statement that obviously can't be true. Oh yeah, also, "Please think about it." Wait. Actually, don't think about it. It's true.

---

Point 4: Statements of fact need to be useful.

Whining about people being manipulative is useless. It results in one thing: people who feel oppressed and impotent and angry. Do we really want more of such people? I don't. Maybe others do.

Ignoring the fact that manipulators exist, and we remember that everyone is one by default when we do this, you are left with the other side of the logical equation: that there are people who are manipulated.

Even thinking about manipulative people, as brendannz did in his first post, is useless. It encourages armchair psychoanalysis from the ivory tower. And that's not useful. What is useful is getting people who are oppressed by others to actually wake up and think about how they're reacting and why they're doing it, and then to push them into proactivity.

That's called "living intentionally". Or, in terms of Covey, "have a balance between courage and compassion". No, I couldn't resist putting on a proper concluding paragraph.

[blossom]

There's no need to be so rude and sarcastic!

I TOTALLY get all the different ways in which the word manipulation can be used... you don't need to lecture and talk down to me from your obvious superior intellect, thanks very much.

All I said was that your statement made no sense...which you have now, in your own way agreed with...which you could have just said in the first place and put it a different way, without getting so pissed...not to " tailor it to my approval" it's not about that.
Why would I bother trying to understand a statement that makes no sense to me?
And, if I was trying to get you to understand what I was saying, it's because you were accusing me of telling you what to do...which I don't think I was...YOU took it that way! But yes, the original sentiment was lost...you don't need to attack me for it.
If a person asks for help in understanding something do you automatically jump on them and start throwing complex and big words at them to prove your intellectual superiority?


This thread has gotten way off topic...and personally, I'm over it! Aren't you?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by blossom

And, if I was trying to get you to understand what I was saying, it's because you were accusing me of telling you what to do...which I don't think I was...YOU took it that way! But yes, the original sentiment was lost...you don't need to attack me for it.

Yup. You still missed it.