Clean relationships

[Mind-On]

Hello,

Many couples nowadays cheat on each other and separate because of that, but, has anyone thought why ?

I don't blame anyone to cheat on his wife/husband, not that it is a good thing, but women/men are everywhere dressed in a seducing way and in sometime or another his/her defenses will break in a weak moment.

The solution is very easy, in Islam women wear veils for that reason, but, in the western world(all the world actually) where freedom means that everybody can dress as he/she like not concerning other people's feelings, couples should be more forgiving about cheating because in some point almost no one can hold him self anymore in front all of these seductions.

I know it's very hard, but, can anyone give another rational resolution to the problem ?

[ScottLee]

Actually, clothing and how people are dressed has little to do with the problem. Women who are covered in a veil and can hardly be seen at all do not create any less of a sexual appetite in men than at any other time. In fact, if everyone in the world were without clothes all the time, nudity itself would be considered inherently non-sexual and nakedness and "revealing" clothing would be considered a non-issue.

Whatever the case, we determine our own choices and perceptions. Cheating in a relationships could happen for multiple reasons. One of those reasons is dishonesty. The best thing that everyone could do is be honest!

Myself, I believe that couples should be able to talk openly with each other about feelings they have for other people, and, correspondingly, should be able to make decisions of whether or not to pursue those feelings. Also, not everyone has the same moral grounds or moral integrity that everyone else has. Swingers are people who are out there, having sex with sometimes total strangers for fun. Some guys cheat and have sex with other women for the thrill of it. The fact of the matter is that it is just in human nature that some people will cheat on their girlfriends/boyfriends or spouses.

The best thing that anyone can do is be open and honest. One of the prime reasons people will not often tell their current partner they're with someone else or have been with someone else is for the fear of the reaction. A reaction that often times is an epic period of crying, tears, pain, depression, rage, you name it. People need to STOP reacting this way. The real thing to do is either break up with whoever cheated on you(yet another fear), or give them one more chance to be MORE HONEST in the future about what they're doing.

[Matthew Shea]

I disagree with you, Mind-On, in two respects. First, if we start to condone cheating, it can lead us straight down the proverbial slippery slope. The idea is that if cheating is acceptable, what else can we now get away with? Second, I'd say you have the problem of scantily dressed people stated backwards. The clothing people wear is not the cause of loose sexual behavior, but merely a symptom of loose sexual morals. The solution to cheating is not to cover women more. That's only masking a symptom and can, as Scott validly pointed out, become a source of excitement itself. The solution is for people to understand the pain they're causing and for them to truly, personally embrace a higher code of sexual behavior. This higher code should be more focused on the partner's needs and in ensuring that any negative aspects of sexuality are avoided. I think the true root of the problem is that people are too interested in their own gratification and are not concerned with the effects of their behavior.

[Mind-On]

You miss understood me about clothes, I didn't mean that they are the main reason for the problem, I just mentioned them as an example for seduction that we are exposed to in our daily life. You are right about covering women won't be the ultimate solution, but, on the other hand, we have sexual instincts after all and they can be switched on whenever they are stimulated.

And about feelings, they change like weather! you might love someone and hate him later, and naturally, you like good looking people and you might meet someone you like or find interesting more than your partner and there is no way to avoid that and believe me, there is always somebody interesting out there.

I do not agree on condoning cheating, but it is the only solution you have, like when you are on sinking boat, you have to jump to the sea

The solution I have in mind is to separate men from women and criminalize sex intercourses out side marriage, it is the right thing to do, but I know it won't happen, so, I offered another solution.

[Yellow]

Originally Posted by Mind-On

You miss understood me about clothes, I didn't mean that they are the main reason for the problem, I just mentioned them as an example for seduction that we are exposed to in our daily life. You are right about covering women won't be the ultimate solution, but, on the other hand, we have sexual instincts after all and they can be switched on whenever they are stimulated.

And about feelings, they change like weather! you might love someone and hate him later, and naturally, you like good looking people and you might meet someone you like or find interesting more than your partner and there is no way to avoid that and believe me, there is always somebody interesting out there.

I do not agree on condoning cheating, but it is the only solution you have, like when you are on sinking boat, you have to jump to the sea

The solution I have in mind is to separate men from women and criminalize sex intercourses out side marriage, it is the right thing to do, but I know it won't happen, so, I offered another solution.

Mind-on, I strongly disagree with you there. Not allowing men and women to associate isn't the right way to go, neither is not allowing people to live their lives the way they want. I believe no one should get to make rules for an individual's personal life as long as he or she isn't harming anyone else. One possibility is to punish inappropriate behaviour towards another person without his or her permission, which is nearly what happens today. However, this itself raises a lot of questions about where we draw the line. We cant take away people's liberty because they might, in future, cheat on someone.

[ScottLee]

Originally Posted by Mind-On

You miss understood me about clothes, I didn't mean that they are the main reason for the problem, I just mentioned them as an example for seduction that we are exposed to in our daily life. You are right about covering women won't be the ultimate solution, but, on the other hand, we have sexual instincts after all and they can be switched on whenever they are stimulated.

Sexuality is a part of human nature that exists at all times, under all conditions, with or without seduction, with or without clothes.

I believe that everyone has the capability to live their lives, each and every person, the way that they would like. The non-acceptance of another's actions is the fault of the people seeing the action, not he individual making it. Now, does this mean we should tolerate ridiculous actions like murder? Of course not. But would society be perfectly okay if everyone let everyone else willingly be with whom they wished? I believe it could be.

That is not to say that we should go all out Aldous Huxley with the idea, but it is to say that not everyone would be polyamorous under fully accepted conditions, as of course, not everyone wants the same things. Cheating would not be cheating if the relationship was done under open terms.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mind-On

The solution I have in mind is to separate men from women and criminalize sex intercourses out side marriage, it is the right thing to do, but I know it won't happen, so, I offered another solution.

Mind-On, my first reaction to this statement is utter shock that someone feels that separating men and women and criminalizing sex outside of marriage is the right thing to do. I am an American and so steeped in the culture of civil rights that this blows my mind. Call me provincial. Are your feelings in this matter also influenced by your culture? Or your religious beliefs?

Aside from that, however, this kind of solution just doesn't work. Forbidding behavior that is human nature only eroticizes and impels it. Much like veiling women has totally eroticized body parts that, here in Los Angeles, wouldn't make a man bat an eye, if a law were passed forbidding sex outside of marriage I guarantee you I'd be one of the first to break it. Along with most everyone I know. Maybe all together, in public. Us folks here in L.A. will immediately rebel and perform whatever sexual act anyone cares to taboo!

[Future's Origin]

I really don't think cheating has anything to do with how people are dressed or how we are innundated by seductive images and nearly nude women. That is akin to saying that rape is caused by these things. On the surface it may appear so to some, but when analyzed there is always something below the surface that is the actual cause. That kind of thinking is almost like a victimization mindset and absolves a person of their own responsibilities. We don't have control over what other people do, but we have control of ourselves and we choose to surrender this control, we are not "worn down." When people cheat there are almost always reasons that go way beyond sex, especially in a commited long term relationship.

You're solution of seperating men and women and criminalizing pre marital sex is downright creepy and insulting, to me. But I'm not passing judgement, I'm just completely disgusted with how that type of social structure would impact my life. How exactly would a society flourish under such conditions? How would people work together? Would there be exclusively male and female businesses and governments? Where do gay people fit into this equation, or those who never wish to marry? What kind of punishment would be appropriate for premarital sex? Honestly, restricting all aspects of personal freedom and growth because some people are unable to control themselves is extreme. It also seems to have nothing to do with cultivating a true, loving, stable partnership deeply desired by both parties. I seriously doubt further associating marriage with shackles and the complete anhiliation of personal freedom is going to help our society deal with this problem.

Cheating and other sexually "immoral" behavior have nothing to do with outside influences. You have control over yourself and you are making a choice. Sexual instincts may switch on, but they do not seize control of your body. And if it does, you have let it, it has nothing to do with the stimulus. I know a few men who are insulted by this idea that men are these mindless voracious beast that lose all self control when exposed to a midriff and cleavage. Men who are happy in their relationship and in their lives typically don't cheat. They can see an attractive woman, evaluate the social adequacies of her appearance and move on with their lives in complete control. Heck they can pass a hundred women and still go home if that is what they want to do. The unhappy man will have more of a problem in such situations. It has nothing to do with the stimulus, the "evil seductress" on the television or in the office. The problem is the cheater and that persons happiness with their life. I think that if someone cheats, they weren't committed in the first place. Society gives us a long list of "shoulds." I think many people get married or in a monogamous relationship more because of social pressure than what they actually want. You may have committed yourself to another person, but you also have to make this commitment to yourself for it to work. If you really want it, it isn't something difficult and it doesn't feel like a sacrifice. If you don't really want to be monogamous and faithful, than you won't be.

My solution is pretty much the exact opposite of yours. I think that as a society we need to become more open to the idea that social norms do not always fit individuals and it is more than OK to live a life outside the married with 2.5 kids and a mortgage ideal that is rammed down our throats constantly. I think this would reduce cheating because "cheaters" wouldn't be pressured to be in commited relationship that they don't truly want. People need to communicate more in general, with their partners/potential partners and more importantly within themselves. We need to be more open and honest with what we truly want and accepting and supportive of those who want something very different. Communication, openess, and honesty are absolutely critical in a long term relationship, especially in the early stages, most definitely before marriage. If that foundation is there, in the relationship and within yourself, not amount of sexual stimulus can shake it, it can only crumble from within.

[Mind-On]

How the society will flourish under these conditions? I think it will flourish just fine and a big example for that is the increase in separated(boys alone and girls alone) schools in the USA (as I read). Furthermore, women aren't that vital labors, but I'm not against working women so don't start shooting

Do you think I'm against civil rights? I'm just saying that you can't just do whatever you want because you are free!! why do women bodies always used in commercials ? isn't it insulting to women? don't they feel like a thing rather than living being who deserves respect?

I think all of you live in a perfect world where a man won't cheat on his wife because he saw a beautiful woman but I think there is big rate of them does, and he is human and whatever morals he is got he would want to fulfill his needs at some point, as I think, no one in the USA (most of them at least) would marry against his will and I think all married couples didn't think that they would cheat on their partners.

And when there is something below the surface that caused the cheating why didn't they divorce in the fist place, feelings change all the time and any couple have their problems and their will be something below the surface at some point, but I don't think anybody would cheat on his partner for that, why would waste time cheating when they know that their marriage isn't going to succeed? why don't they just divorce?

I didn't mean for the debate to go on this way(discussing the separation between men and women) I just wanted to say that cheating is the penalty of seduction.

[dcaldwell]

Mind-On, I think you're confused with treating a symptom. But come now, you should know that the veil isn't the reason. Muslim women wear it to proclaim their adherance to Islam, and even that's not a requirement. In addition, the Islamic world traditionally supported polygamous marriages (see the Saudi Royal Family), which could dull the burning need to go outside the marital contract quite nicely. On top of that, have to seen the promiscuity of Iran's underground youth, or the new "temporary marriages", which is essentially open prostitution? It's a problem in your culture too, just not as flagrant has in the West.

Now, Future's Origin is spot on in saying cheating, etc., is a symptom of being unhappy and lack of commitment in the first place. But, it's not so cut and dry. I completely agree that certain social factors that sexualize young people absolutely contribute to an increased level of promiscuity. Marriage has no real definition anymore, as Christians who preech Godly faithfulness divorce at the same rate as non-Cs, and the idea of community is disolving in the face of free market capitalism. Marriage used to be considered a divinely-influenced life-time commitment, but now it's nothing more than another contract masked by a shallow social veil. People see relationships with everyone as more fluid, and that's in large part due to enhanced communications. I don't believe, however, that any religion can or should solve this. If the West wants to retain its capitalistic attitude, the religious morality of olden days is doomed.

Although there are many interwoven issues, one top-level problem is the institutionalization of children, 'cause that's where the whole damn problem starts -- it's where the cycle reincarnates. When parents send their children to daycare at age 1 or 2 for the day, then government schools take the reigns from age 4-17, it's basically teachers and caregivers who raise the kids. Given the much touted "separation of church and state", the schools admonish themselves from a responsibility they have inadvertently inherited. The schools, as a government institution, have ripped out a massive portion of the core learning of childhood, so kids grow up with a moral and ethical hole they feel somehow compelled to fill. To compound it, as girls and boys move into their teenage years, there's no one waiting and willing to teach them what exactly it means to be a responsible adult female or male and member of their community/society. No wonder kids are so confused and imbalanced. After that attrocity, the parents *justify* it by saying they need to pay for the daycare or extra programs, hence the second job, extra shift, or more hours at the office. Once you get sucked into workaholicism, and by conseqence the extra cash, it's difficult to get out because that means living with "less" than your peers (which many consider social suicide). The kids grow up with a large hole whose filling *should* be guided by their absent parental units, so the culture fills it, and the kids learn making lots of money and buying lots of stuff (reenforced by the culture, of course) is equal if not more important that raising chidren. And the cycle continues. I'm not saying this is everyone, but there's certainly been enough of it to create a snowball effect.

My solution is to do nothing -- that is, nothing outside your family. I would suggest the parental units be they hetero-, homo-, married or partners, and their children (adopted or biological) stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and start focusing on making their familial unit stable -- financially, bodily, morally, educationally, etc. Many of a child's greatest heros should be visible within their family or immediate community, and family mentors need to be taught how to encourage and uplift younger generations. When the family is strong, the community is strong, the region is strong, and the state is thus strong. This will ultimately be resolved over the course of many generations, and evolution in consciousness. I think any other short-term fix will prompt backlash and will ultimately fail itself.

[Baltar]

This thread seems to be all over the place, but I'll throw in my two cents. First of all, cheating in a relationship is not "immoral". Cheating is breaking a commitment you've made to someone, and a much better word for this is dishonorable. The fact is that nobody gives a damn if you do this except for you and the person you're in the committed relationship with. And if you're an honorable person you'd simply never do this, in spite of any temptation. That's all there is to it. Case closed.

Furthermore, being married or not doesn't mean much in these cases. Marriage is just a formality* between two people that's used to confirm permanent (well, for the length of the marriage at least) commitment to each other. It also doubles as a signal to others that these two people are a couple and aren't open to being courted anymore.

In reality people can have a monogamous relationship without any formality. After all, those people who get married after years of dating become monogamous long before formally being married. One possible way of reducing divorces and cheating in marriages is to force people to have a mandatory period of engagement of like a year where they can move in, live monogamously for a while, and decide if they really want to be married. Of course this isn't practical since it infringes on civil rights, but with the freedom that we have comes responsibility that many people clearly don't want to honor.

*It also has some legal aspects, but for the purpose of this discussion that can be ignored.

[ReallyGoodIdeas]

Cheating is showing a lack of respect to the partner and to the person doing the cheating. I agree with you Mind-One that if people want to cheat, a divorce is probably due, or at least a serious questioning of the vows undertaken. (If anyone broke a promise like that with me, they'd be lucky to survive it!)

Cheating has nothing to do with dress codes or people working together. It has everything to do with the health of the relationship between the people involved. Good looks don't cause most of us to want to have sex with someone, usually it's a person's personality that gets us interested. And just cos a woman is scantily clad does not mean she's sexually available.

But what are the consequences of cheating anyway? Noone dies, people are upset and marriages break up. Going on your hypothesis, the marriages would have broken up anyway, so very little loss in reality. Anyone who cheats is a complete loser in my book and their partner is better off anyway! ;-)

So the point was...?

[Doku]

Communication.

[JHL]

Mind-On,

what comes through strongly for me in your posts is insecurity. It sounds to me that, in the context of relationships, you find the world a very threatening place. You project animal-like qualities onto people, suggesting that they can barely control themselves in the presence of sexually attractive members of the opposite sex, and then suggest drastic solutions designed for creatures incapable of self-control or independent thought.

I wonder if you've considered that perhaps you're simply projecting your insecurities onto the world outside of you. You will never feel or security peace in this way because you will never be able to control the world enough. As long as you continue to project your fears, you will continue to perceive the world as threatening. In addition, your attempts to control achieve nothing other than to reinforce your fears.

The only lasting solution is take ownership of your fears. Your perception is that it is other people and societies that are the threat. In reality the chaos is all within you. It is the same for everyone. The only real security there is, is when you make peace with yourself. When you let go of needing to control the world around you, you will discover freedom. And only in conditions of freedom can real love thrive.

I can think of few greater motivations for someone wanting to cheat on their partner, than as a result of their partner trying to control them. In trying to manage your fears externally, you're also creating the very conditions for making them come true.

[RT Wolf]

^ Totally agree with JHL. That is some sound advice, JHL.

[Future's Origin]

Originally Posted by Mind-On

How the society will flourish under these conditions? I think it will flourish just fine and a big example for that is the increase in separated(boys alone and girls alone) schools in the USA (as I read). Furthermore, women aren't that vital labors, but I'm not against working women so don't start shooting

Women aren't vital laborers? Exactly why is that? We could not flourish "just fine" if we were segregated. Women currently own 15.6 million business in America alone; 48% of all business are at least half owned by women. They employee 9.8 million employees, account for 1.19 trillion dollars in sales and comprise 55% of all new business startups. Women owned business also have close to a 50/50 ratio of male to female employees, so segregation would practically cripple these businesses.

Women compose 46% of the workforce with 69 million employees. 75% of this workforce works full time. 92% of registered nurses, 88% of elementary to middleschool and 97% of preschool and kindergarten teachers, 91% of bookeeping and accounting clerks, 94% of childcare workers, 84% of general office workers, and 69% of office managers are WOMEN! These roles are essential to a functioning civilization.

And nearly 1 in 4 families with children under 18 are headed by a woman who are the primary breadwinner. For these families, a woman's labor is obviously critical.

Even in developing countries where women take on more traditional roles, they collect firewood, grow, harvest, store, and prepare food, create clothing and rear children. Developing countries that allow women more freedom in education and society experience radical drops in poverty and hunger almost immediately.

Can we say vital? You've made it clear that you don't want to talk about this, but I always feel an obligation to provide people like you with facts that show that I am indeed a vital, capable member of society.

Originally Posted by Mind-On

Do you think I'm against civil rights? I'm just saying that you can't just do whatever you want because you are free!! why do women bodies always used in commercials ? isn't it insulting to women? don't they feel like a thing rather than living being who deserves respect?

It isn't always women's bodies used in advertising, although it is more common. This isn't the fault of women as a whole, and as a whole, women have no control over this. This is big business messing with our children and our subconcious. You will be hard pressed to find a non sexualized and non objectified image of a man in advertising as well.

Originally Posted by Mind-On

I think all of you live in a perfect world where a man won't cheat on his wife because he saw a beautiful woman but I think there is big rate of them does, and he is human and whatever morals he is got he would want to fulfill his needs at some point, as I think, no one in the USA (most of them at least) would marry against his will and I think all married couples didn't think that they would cheat on their partners.

A lot of people are living in a dream world right now, and it's people like you. People who absolve themselves of responsibility for their own actions and put blame on others for their mistakes and shortcomings. Even if a 100% content man did cheat on his wife for no other reason than the women was incredibly desireable and available, it is still his fault. He is in control of his actions and he is making a choice. When people lose this control, it's called insanity, not cheating.

Originally Posted by Mind-On

And when there is something below the surface that caused the cheating why didn't they divorce in the fist place, feelings change all the time and any couple have their problems and their will be something below the surface at some point, but I don't think anybody would cheat on his partner for that, why would waste time cheating when they know that their marriage isn't going to succeed? why don't they just divorce?

Many people don't have the courage to end the relationship, so they cheat. This is very often how cowardly people exit relationships once things have turned sour and they are no longer committed to the relationship. This comes from the mouths of people who have cheated, time and time again.

Originally Posted by Mind-On

I didn't mean for the debate to go on this way(discussing the separation between men and women) I just wanted to say that cheating is the penalty of seduction.

No, it looks like you just want to be able to spew baseless crap about how the evil seductresses make men cheat on their wives and it is in no way their fault. Cheating is the penalty for lack of self control, communication, honesty, and happiness. That is what everyone else is saying, and that is what most cheaters say themselves when looking back on the situation in the clarity of hindsight.

You specifically stated that you wanted a rational resolution to this problem outside of this Islamic solution. It looks like you've been given several, but none to your liking. I'll get a bit more specific with mine and address the seductive images that you blame for this problem. Outside influences can play a role, but only the role that individuals allow them to play.

I think that the way we socialize our children can pretty much doom their relationships. First, we do not teach children to conciously evaluate their choices and take responsibility for their actions. We give children far too many excuses. The idea that men can't control their sexual drives is one of these excuses. We also don't teach children to search inside themselves for what they want. We tell them what they want and ridicule any other desire or lifestyle that falls outside the social norm. I think changing this would change the adults the children become dramatically, and therefore their relationships.

I also think that the mixed messages we send children about sex and relationship cause a lot of problems. Girls are supposed to be in monogamous relationships that lead to nuclear family units. This is the social ideal. Keeping and controling your man are status symbols for girls. Girls are also constantly sent the message that someday this prince will come and rescue them for their problems and shower them with material wealth. I think this has a tendency to keep girls from solving their own problems and making something of themselves. These messages also cause women to feel inadequate if they are single, which drives them into unhealthy relationship. To boys, we say the exact opposite. Boys are socialized to see monogamous relationships as assaults on their personal liberties. Disrespecting and having sex with as many women as you can are status symbols for boys. This in itself can drive a weak willed man to cheat. If he is presented with the opportunity to cheat on his partner, he is all but obligated to do so based on the social standard. It is also seen as a status symbol for a woman to steal another woman's man. I think the slut/stud double standard wreaks absolute havoc on developing sexualities. What we have essentially done is established two distinctly different lifestyle ideals and norms for men and women. The gender roles we show children aren't compatible with each other. This should change.

Both genders are taught to view marriages as power struggles. I have felt pressure from other women to better nag and control my husband, to spend more money on stupid things, and restrict his purchasing power. He is tired of his masculinity being questioned because he doesn't feel the need to go to strip clubs and talk for hours about what he would love to do to a celebrity. Both genders are sent the message that sex is something that women provide men and a tool that they use to manipulate. They are also taught that women don't really enjoy sex and that women stop having sex after marriage. The women enjoying sex message is slowly starting to die off, but it's being replace with an equally unhealthy alternative. How many negative but all too common euphamisms are used to describe marriage? The old ball and chain, buying the cow, etc. I think that as a society, we create a lot of self fulfilling prophecies by perpetuating sterotypes to our children.

We should also do something about advertising, especially advertising toward children. If I had a young child, I would have to drive him/her past at least 3 hypersexualized billboards to get to grandma's house. A report was released earlier this year by a group of pediatricians that say advertising and mixed social messages are becoming a public health hazard. Obesity, Eating disorders, drug and alcohol addiction, and promiscuity and STD's are on the rise and all children are doing is adequately responding to the social signals they are sent. They are doing exactly what we are telling them to do, and it is slowly going to destoy our culture. I am sick of our society allowing well funded corporations the same rights as real human beings. Public health and social progress should trump a companies right to exercise "free speech" to manipulate our children for profit. We really need to wake up and take responsibility for the problems we are creating.

When you look at the problem in more detail, there are many outside influences that can make monogamy more difficult. I didn't even get into finance and stress, the number one causes of divorce. However, people are ultimately responsible for their actions and how they respond to these influences. I feel that you are copping out by blaming the temptress. It absolves the cheater of responsibility. We don't have control over other people's actions, we only have control over ourselves. Nothing forces a person to cheat, they make a choice.